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[AstroNut325]

I'll pay $80 for new games. Or $60 for more episodic content. And I'll start supporting DLC more.

F*** anyone who thinks this is no big deal. The responses in this thread are absurd!

No one should be working 80 hours a week non-stop! Especially if it's not a crunch period.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Again, games aren't just about function, they are art. Commercial art admittedly, but the point is that what constitutes greatness in a game or a movie is an intangible quality, its not a problem to be solved per se.

Exactly what I'm trying to get at but probably better said.

 

[StrategyFan]

the podcast covers many interesting topics. if you listen to it you might get a little more context for why someone chose to spend that much time working on a game (hint: it's more than writing)

full episode list:
https://www.idlethumbs.net/forums/forum/40-designer-notes-episodes/

i found the Rob Pardo (Blizzard) and Louis Castle (Westwood) episodes to be most interesting

 

[lemon__fresh]

More difficult than all other software development? Of course not. More difficult than average or even most, sure. The key difference I'm trying to highlight is in just about all other software development, the goal is clearly defined. How you achieve that goal may be complicated and challenging, but the goal is clearly defined and when you get it to work it's clear and not subjective. Game development is highly subjective in defining what the goal is so reaching that goal isn't as clear about when you're there. Hell, I've written whole systems that worked perfectly as planned and to spec, but was thrown out in the end because it didn't work as a whole in the end and directions were changed. I'm not saying nothing ever gets thrown out in other software development either, but the point I'm getting at is the goals tend to be a lot more rigid and concrete in other software development.

This is rarely the case, I think there would be a lot less shitty software products out there otherwise.

It's EXTREMELY common to not have clear requirements and/or have to deal with constantly changing requirements throughout a software product's life cycle.

Understanding what your audience wants is a challenge in any industry.

 

[Clinton514]

When you hold little to no stake in an company of course it's not worth it. You're pretty much building someone else's dream for them.

But then again, when you go into an industry known for such things, you've made your choice. Either keep up or get out and I'm not trying to be rude about it.

 

[Metfanant]

Excuse my ignorance, if there is something about game development that specifically causes the issue of crunch...but ive just got to say...

The vast majority of us work under some type of deadline...at work you need to get things done in a certain time...at school you have due dates, etc...

Some of us bust our butts right out of the gates working as hard as possible, and get stuff done early...some procrastinate, and have to put in lots of hours as the deadline approaches...

I understand that as you reach your deadline, you want to make sure everything is right, and you're going to "crunch" but I have to think that the entire process is full of inefficiencies and poor time management if crunch gets to the point it seems to do for most AAA devs...

Edit: I'm not talking about individual employees, or that there are people just sitting at their desks wasting time... but that projects as a whole are designed and handled inefficiently

 

[Fafalada]

A ton of what goes into game development is predictable and clear-cut these days.

Most of it which hasn't been the bottleneck for decades.

If you really need a re-affirmation for how far from reality comparing (any)game development is to a standardized pipeline - look no further than the company who's made game-as-a-pipeline a science (Ubisoft), and their games are also by far among the most expensive and problem ridden productions of the industry.

Working yourself to the bone is objectively, unambiguously a detriment to that goal, which is why the optimal situation is people who work extremely hard and efficiently during their work hours and keep their skills up outside of work, but also keep a schedule that avoids burnout.

While that's true - a lot of people lack the self-discipline to actually follow this, and while crunch culture is a systemic problem (so isolating any one-cause is kind of moot) a bigger problem than culture is that lack of discipline leads to just addding that extra touch on their work that goes beyond the normal scope, and if not actively curtailed, this will most often spin-off into excessive overtime, even on 1-man projects.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

And after all that have so many people criticize and shit all over your work on the internet? I couldnt do it. I'd maybe get into voice acting in the idustry if I could but thats about it. Or be a security guard at an office or something.

 

[lemon__fresh]

Again, games aren't just about function, they are art. Commercial art admittedly, but the point is that what constitutes greatness in a game or a movie is an intangible quality, its not a problem to be solved per se.

Agreed, if it's about artistic expression "requirements" hardly enter the equation at all. Which is likely quite a bit more enjoyable since you have more freedom in what you create.

 

[Dario ff]

I think some crunch is inevitable towards the end of a project, but nowhere on the ridiculous level Naughty Dog seems to be proud about (which I find very disturbing).

We get useless statistics about how many millions of lines of code were written or how much extra time the developers had to put as if they meant anything for either productivity or the quality of the product. I'd like to see more examples of companies being proud of how well managed their projects were.

A good historical counter point to this is how Jason West ran the IW development team from 2002 through 2009.

Mandatory crunch was limited to a few 2 or 3 week sprints per game, for key milestones like e3 and alpha. Regular work hours were 10am to 7pm. Crunch work hours extended that to 10am to 10pm, Monday through Thursday. An extra 12 hours per week. There as no mandatory weekend crunch for Call of Duty 1, 2, 4, or MW2.

Individuals that wanted to work extra hours could do so. For myself, I did what I called "18 months off, 6 months on". Meaning I would have a life outside of work for 18 months, and then to ship I would remove myself from all other obligations and focus on the game. Even so, it would say really only three to four months were very very intense, and even then I didn't work that much on the weekends.

It's important to highlight that engineers were not tasked with more work than they could do without crunching. Not crunching was a top priority. Jason adhered to strict scheduling of the engineering department. He believed that over time, people are more productive not crunching than if they did crunch in the same period.

Since Jason stopped making CoD games, the number of hours it takes to make one has risen at least 6x, and probably closer to 9x.

Like this right here, with some of the most well regarded CoD games to boot. Now this is something to be proud of. Good project managers are criminally underappreciated and are definitely the key to a good product.

 

[Longsword]

One big part of the problem in AAA is that the cost of making games gets higher and higher, requiring ever-larger teams to make them, and yet the sales of AAA games not growing.

Just saying "take more time" or "hire more people" is not going to happen. First, industry already IS hiring more people, just to keep up with the minimum requirements for AAA as demanded by the customers. They are not making more money, so the only thing that remains is to take it off the flesh and blood of the devs. And I tell you: eventually something is going to give, and it will not be the demands of the audience. AAA just might become unviable safe for FIFA, GTA etc. Already we are seeing fewer and fewer titles published each year. Those saying that you can make a 10-hour SP game and find success are sadly mistaken: the sales data is quite clear that to succeed in a way publishers need a AAA game to succeed, you need to have all the bells and whistles.

As for those criticising Amy leaving ND for EA: I was at EA during the EA spouse episode, and the things started steadily getting better there ever since. I wish her all the best.

Of the big successful devs I know, only Supercell seems to be able to have it all: no overtime and massive success.

 

[Night.Ninja]

isn't 80/90 hour week normal for americans ?

 

[Noobcraft]

isn't 80/90 hour week normal for americans ?

No. 40 hours per week is considered full time.

 

[ZarKryn7]

"Poor devs..."

Give me a fucking break. There's no need to feel sorry for these people. It was their own choice to work at AAA developer that is being whipped by a greedy publisher.

Want to avoid crunch? Make your own indie game. Problem solved.

Stupidity. To the max.

 

[Vire]

isn't 80/90 hour week normal for americans ?

Hell no... If I had to work more than 8 hours a day every day I'd kill myself.

 

[StrategyFan]

Just saying "take more time" or "hire more people" is not going to happen.

the solution is actually "take more time and use less people"

the interview talks about that a bit towards the end

the problem stems from trying to use new hardware to deliver photorealisic graphics. if that could somehow go away and publishers/execs also got a bit more sane, then it should actually be more profitable to have smaller teams working through longer dev cycles

 

[FStop7]

"Poor devs..."

Give me a fucking break. There's no need to feel sorry for these people. It was their own choice to work at AAA developer that is being whipped by a greedy publisher.

Want to avoid crunch? Make your own indie game. Problem solved.

Michael Pachter's soulmate has arrived

 

[Mass_Pincup]

the solution is actually "take more time and use less people"

the interview talks about that a bit towards the end

the problem stems from trying to use new hardware to deliver photorealisic graphics. if that could somehow go away and publishers/execs also got a bit more sane, then it should actually be more profitable to have smaller teams working through longer dev cycles

But the publishers/execs are just responding to the demand, just look at how pretty games are received even here.

 

[SRTtoZ]

Yea it sucks. You don't put out games as good as those put out by Naughty Dog or say Rockstar without sacrificing a lot of your personal life.

 

[hamdammage]

People mention going Indie as a solution, but those guys work just as long or harder than a AAA dev. Difference is, they won't necessarily get paid for it.

 

[Bulbasaur]

This is the design industry in general, sadly. Don't like it? Go be something fulfilling like a banker or janitor.

 

[bitbydeath]

If they're working and being paid for that extra time then they should have a good case to hire more people. That extra money they are earning can go to someone else just as easily.

 

[benny_a]

This is the design industry in general, sadly. Don't like it? Go be something fulfilling like a banker or janitor.

That seems like a false choice.

 

[brandonh83]

I've waited desperately for a new Chrono game for years. It's the one thing that would officially make me more excited than just about anything else in the world.

I wouldn't want a single employee working more than 40 hours a week on it. Not even if it were to be better than Trigger. Let alone fucking Uncharted.

 

[joms5]

She's a creative director as well. I don't think there's a pure writer in the video game industry. Even if someone hire as one, that writer writer probably have to do some directing as well considering what's in the writers mind rarely translates well into other people.

Forgive my ignorance but would the creative director be the same as the director of a project?

 

[Farks!]

Remind me to never get into the games industry. Also, sounds like the US (and other countries) needs to get their labour laws in order. It's fucked that so much overtime can become the norm, especially if it's unpaid.

 

[Longsword]

the solution is actually "take more time and use less people"

the interview talks about that a bit towards the end

the problem stems from trying to use new hardware to deliver photorealisic graphics. if that could somehow go away and publishers/execs also got a bit more sane, then it should actually be more profitable to have smaller teams working through longer dev cycles

Yes. That is the big caveat. If you could make the demand for bleeding edge graphics to go away, it would alleviate the problem. But the consumers reward the photorealistic graphics with their money, so that is what the AAA devs will focus on.

We shall see what happens. The skyrocketing dev costs will eventually force some solutions sooner or later. Breakeven points for AAA games are getting utterly outrageous. One day they will be unattainable.

 

[MysteryQuesadilla]

This is the design industry in general, sadly. Don't like it? Go be something fulfilling like a banker or janitor.

The history of labor and why we appreciate things like weekends and a general 40 hour work week standard is definitely because of this.

 

[benny_a]

Forgive my ignorance but would the creative director be the same as the director of a project?

I think Naughty Dog is a dual director setup. Game director and creative director.

What each person oversees I can't tell you 100% but I think in general one is more responsible for gameplay, systems and the other is more about story, cutscenes, aesthetics. There probably is overlap and both communicate the (hopefully) shared vision to all departments.

A director position seems like it's very exhausting in the AAA space.

 

[New002]

I was working 80 hour+ weeks at my last job before I found a new job. I did it for a few months. Can't imagine doing it for 10.5 years, and I loved where I worked for the most part. Then again, I was low on the totem pole so I certainly wasn't getting compensated like I imagine Amy was. Even then, that schedule is bonkers. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to that lifestyle.

 

[John Kowalski]

You know it would be cool to have a list of companies that didn't do things like this, you know like Klei or Failbetter. I want to buy their games.

 

[Trago]

Are there a number of reasons many AAA studios have shit management in this regard? Or does this kind of thing just come with the territory?

 

[byropoint]

Damn, that's pretty brutal.

 

[brandonh83]

I was working 80 hour+ weeks at my last job before I found a new job. I did it for a few months. Can't imagine doing it for 10.5 years, and I loved where I worked for the most part. Then again, I was low on the totem pole so I certainly wasn't getting compensated like I imagine Amy was. Even then, that schedule is bonkers. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to that lifestyle.

That's when your job is strictly your life and absolutely everything revolves around it. With 40 hour weeks you're still beat but you can work in pastime activities. Doubt you could do that on double the hours.

 

[BBboy20]

Check out this behind the scenes look from Infamous 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3R0foCjUww

It's heart breaking to hear about crunch and how it affects families. I wonder if this is better in western European countries where there are on average the employment situation is more employee-friendly.

I remember speaking to people that worked at JPL and the difference in amount of hours they worked compared to what I did in R&D in Europe was crazy.

Well, I Platinumed so...I suppose that's something for them.

 

[Longsword]

If they're working and being paid for that extra time then they should have a good case to hire more people. That extra money they are earning can go to someone else just as easily.

In all my time in AAA the only time I got compensated for the insane amounts of overtime was getting a small portion of Christmas vacation I worked as unpaid overtime as comp time.

Trust me, the budgets do not cover paid overtime. At least in any of the studios I worked for, and I worked for many of the Big Boys.

 

[Furio53]

In all my time in AAA the only time I got compensated for the insane amounts of overtime was getting a small portion of Christmas vacation I worked as unpaid overtime as comp time.

Trust me, the budgets do not cover paid overtime. At least in any of the studios I worked for, and I worked for many of the Big Boys.

yeah honestly the best way to avoid crunch in the industry is to start compensating OT. Money talks.

 

[Gen X]

I don't care how enjoyable or rewarding a job is, you won't see me me pulling 80hr weeks anymore. Done some crazy ass shit keeping people happy and it's just not worth it.

 

[joms5]

I think Naughty Dog is a dual director setup. Game director and creative director.

What each person oversees I can't tell you 100% but I think in general one is more responsible for gameplay, systems and the other is more about story, cutscenes, aesthetics. There probably is overlap and both communicate the (hopefully) shared vision to all departments.

A director position seems like it's very exhausting in the AAA space.

Interesting. Thanks!

 

[PBY]

Excuse my ignorance, if there is something about game development that specifically causes the issue of crunch...but ive just got to say...

The vast majority of us work under some type of deadline...at work you need to get things done in a certain time...at school you have due dates, etc...

Some of us bust our butts right out of the gates working as hard as possible, and get stuff done early...some procrastinate, and have to put in lots of hours as the deadline approaches...

I understand that as you reach your deadline, you want to make sure everything is right, and you're going to "crunch" but I have to think that the entire process is full of inefficiencies and poor time management if crunch gets to the point it seems to do for most AAA devs...

Edit: I'm not talking about individual employees, or that there are people just sitting at their desks wasting time... but that projects as a whole are designed and handled inefficiently

There's a lot of uninformed posts in this thread, and I really don't mean to single you out - but as someone who works in a salaried service industry, yes management can be poor, but most of the time there's no "fault." These projects are just highly leveraged, and the industry has systemic issues that perpetuate these problems.

This isn't lazy devs or lazy management, and thats offensive to those people.

 

[PtM]

Michael Pachter's soulmate has arrived

Did Pachter eat your baby or something?

 

[Longsword]

yeah honestly the best way to avoid crunch in the industry is to start compensating OT. Money talks.

Yes. this would make a difference. But the publishers will not fund it is my educated guess. Already the cost of developing AAA is way beyond most comfort levels and would push the breakeven point of full-price unit sales to unheard-of heights. Doubling the dev cost is not going to fly.

 

[benny_a]

Naughty Dog is notorious for their crunches in the industry and has been for years, from the very start of the Uncharted series. The term "death march" among devs referring to crunch actually originates from their studio, from the Uncharted 2 days.

It's crazy to read this because as far as I can remember Nate Wells referred to the Uncharted 1 crunch as the horrible crunch that caused many people to leave the studio and almost caused the studio to collapse.

Edit: Maybe I'm misattributing this to Nate Wells when it was Jeremy Yates that said it. Nate Wells definitely spoke about the ND crunch as well.

 

[AzaK]

Crunch, again, is a huge industry problem not enough people talk about. It comes up once in a while and people have a little chat about it but that's not enough. There needs to be constant attention and a constant dialog if anything is ever going to change.

Unfortunately the gaming industry is about 10 years behind the rest of the development industries. Any manager worth their salt makes sure their team is treated well, happy and healthy and crunch works against that. Almost every time there is crunch it's a management/planning problem but employees pay the price.

We all work longer hours at times when unexpected things happen, but to have crunch just part of the standard working practice is utter bullshit IMO and shows that management (And the money heads) are failing.

I don't care how enjoyable or rewarding a job is, you won't see me me pulling 80hr weeks anymore. Done some crazy ass shit keeping people happy and it's just not worth it.

I'm with you. Been there done that many times in my career - fuck that shit.

 

[SmokedMeat]

It's not the customers fault if you release a busted game.

Who said anything about busted game's?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I knew Naughty Dog was bad on crunch times but I didn't realize they were this bad. Essentially among the worst in the industry, it seems like. :\ That's disappointing, and the pretty Uncharted 4 graphics are not a price worth paying for all that shit.

Also, I'm so glad to see Mogwai's horrible, ignorant, sociopathic post get the shit it deserves. @WorstofNeoGAF, you know what you gotta do.

 

[Interficium]

It's crazy to read this because as far as I can remember Nate Wells referred to the Uncharted 1 crunch as the horrible crunch that caused many people to leave the studio and almost caused the studio to collapse.

Edit: Maybe I'm misattributing this to Nate Wells when it was Jeremy Yates that said it. Nate Wells definitely spoke about the ND crunch as well.

There are certain crunches that are so notorious in the industry that they're like AAA developer scary campfire stories.

Halo 2 and all of the Uncharted games certainly come to mind.

 

[bitbydeath]

In all my time in AAA the only time I got compensated for the insane amounts of overtime was getting a small portion of Christmas vacation I worked as unpaid overtime as comp time.

Trust me, the budgets do not cover paid overtime. At least in any of the studios I worked for, and I worked for many of the Big Boys.

That's a shame, sounds like the best thing you can get is paid holidays from all the hours you accrue.

 

[Persona7]

That's quite sad that working in AAA has led to such negative outcomes for some.

80 hours a week?! As a writer? Any other writers in here? How is that possible?

She was the creative director on the Uncharted series as a whole up to UC4. She did WAY more than just writing. I don't understand why people seem to think the only thing she did was writing.

 

[benny_a]

There are certain crunches that are so notorious in the industry that they're like AAA developer scary campfire stories.

Halo 2 and all of the Uncharted games certainly come to mind.

I'm just imagining it.

How insane must the UC1 crunch have been if it caused 30 people to quit Naughty Dog when regular crunch at Naughty Dog is already a horror story to regular AAA developer.