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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it

Krejlooc

Banned
Again, not the best metaphor in this context. Different people can put their hands on a keyboard and write lines of code for the same piece of software, but only a single women can biologically conceive a baby

It's amazing how you keep missing the meaning behind this metaphor. Some computer science problems aren't solved by putting more lines of code on the screen. In fact, the best kinds of problems are the kind that are efficient with as few lines of code as possible.

The "9 women can't birth a baby in 1 month" aphorism means that some types of problems cannot be solved by brute force. More people typing at a screen does not speed up problem solving.

Let's say you need to write AI and Physic code for your game. You can have the job handled by a single guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week. In the second case, job will be completed within the same time frame but with significantly reduced individual workload.

You're not a developer, are you?

Most of that 80 hours isn't spent typing on the keyboard.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
There are situations where people are loaded with much more work than they can actually do, which results in things getting delayed and half-ass jobs. Instead of adding people at mid- to late-production, how about having an adequate number of people since the beginning? But that would mean knowing how to run a company.
This line of thought COMPLETELY ignores the iterative process of games development over the course of a few years.
 

zsynqx

Member
It seems like despite the conditions though (which may indeed be bad) the people working at ND still love their work, have a pretty good glass door rating: https://www.glassdoor.ca/Reviews/Naughty-Dog-Reviews-E134488.htm

Not to mention you don't hear horror stories like from Irrational Games or the guys who made LA Noire.

I think what a lot of people may not understand that game developers, at least to themselves are "artists". They are not just an employee at a company. They envision themselves as creators and don't see working as something they are forced into just to pay the bills- especially at top studios like ND.

They are mostly very positive reviews but nearly all of them mention crunch or poor work/life balance as the main negative of working at the company. A couple do say that the management have been trying to improve on this front so that is definitely a positive.
 

soultron

Banned
There are situations where people are loaded with much more work than they can actually do, which results in things getting delayed and half-ass jobs. Instead of adding people at mid- to late-production, how about having an adequate number of people since the beginning? But that would mean knowing how to run a company.



Again, not the best metaphor in this context. Different people can put their hands on a keyboard and write lines of code for the same piece of software, but only a single women can biologically conceive a baby. And it's not really about making things faster, it's about reducing individual workload. Let's say you need to write AI and Physic code for your game. You can have the job handled by a single guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week. In the second case, job will be completed within the same time frame but with significantly reduced individual workload.

Myself and other game developers have already explained this concept thoroughly to you. I'm convinced that, at this point, you won't be able to properly understand this concept until you experience game development firsthand. That's the only way I know how to politely state it.
 

CrazyHorse

Junior Member
What upsets me the most about this is how the gamers treat the devs.

I am a software dev (not a game dev) and I know just how hard it is to make software (especially games).
 

Humdinger

Gold Member
If it's free from understanding, that's because you're not conveying anything beyond meaningless platitudes. She enjoys her work. Ok, so? Clearly she didn't enjoy all of it, considering that she has a lot to complain about.

If you want your "it's her choice!" spiel torn apart, read the thread. You're not saying anything mind blowing or even new in your comments. It's the same-old same-old.

Oh, well, shame on me for not saying something "new and mind-blowing" after 1000 posts. Gosh, what was I thinking, expressing my opinion and all. How dare I.

Having a bad day? Why the need to be such a jerk?
 
Would people be willing to pay a premium price, say $75-$80 for a game if it allowed a developer to hire enough people to finish a game while the employees are working 50-55 hours a week?


Honest question. I think I would.
 
It's also a much more complex game. No one said throwing more people at it magically makes it go faster. The point was that having more people will help reduce the amount of work for each individual, thus reducing working hours.

That doesn't always work. If you work in a workplace that requires a lot of intercooperability having more people and more cooks in the kitchen can actually be quite detrimental to productivity.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
No thanks. After interacting with you for three posts, I've lost interest in your opinion. You don't have much credibility with me at this point.

So, no thanks, you aren't going to read the thread but you are going to raise the same points that have been discussed for 20 pages now. And you expect people to engage you as a reasonable person?

Oh, well, shame on me for not saying something "new and mind-blowing" after 1000 posts. Gosh, what was I thinking, expressing my opinion and all. How dare I.

Having a bad day? Why the need to be such a jerk?

So what exactly is your opinion? The point you made isn't deep - are you trying to say that because she enjoyed her work, this exploitation is ok? That it's her fault? That she deserves it? All of those opinions are pretty shitty. If those aren't the opinions you are expressing, then what exactly were you trying to say with your "but she liked it!" post?
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Would people be willing to pay a premium price, say $75-$80 for a game if it allowed a developer to hire enough people to finish a game while the employees are working 50-55 hours a week?


Honest question. I think I would.

lol, that wouldn't happen. At least not now. I've seen this sentiment expressed a few times in this thread, but constant crunch doesn't happen because games are sold for "only" $60 (and that isn't true anymore anyway. $60 is only the initial investment, but publishers expect you to buy the season pass, DLC, then the sequel next year, etc. And even if you buy those, working conditions don't change).

Who knows, maybe "fair trade games" will be the next marketing buzz used by publishers! :p

No thanks. After interacting with you for three posts, I've lost interest in your opinion. You don't have much credibility with me at this point.
Then read the myriad of other posts by other users addressing your points.
 

smashism

Member
Would people be willing to pay a premium price, say $75-$80 for a game if it allowed a developer to hire enough people to finish a game while the employees are working 50-55 hours a week?


Honest question. I think I would.
This is the same question people are asking about the food industry as well. Weird seeing the parallels of my chef life and game development life. Especially odd because I've done both.
 
Would people be willing to pay a premium price, say $75-$80 for a game if it allowed a developer to hire enough people to finish a game while the employees are working 50-55 hours a week?


Honest question. I think I would.
Then they'd just make those people work those same hours and put some extra crap in the game.

You can make a perfectly fine $60 game with a team working normal hours most of the time. Just don't plan deadlines you know you can't make without crunching for months. These companies are at this for decades already, at that point if you are still that bad at planning, there is something wrong with your work culture. And if you can't make the game for that budget, you know, don't make it.
 
Would people be willing to pay a premium price, say $75-$80 for a game if it allowed a developer to hire enough people to finish a game while the employees are working 50-55 hours a week?


Honest question. I think I would.

People proudly proclaim how they don't buy games at full price now, raising msrp more would just make the chorus of "greedy devs" that much louder.

Changes have to come from publisher expectations and more realistic schedules
 
I think this is a misleading generalization. I'm sure not all AAA companies force their employees to work 80 hour weeks. If anything, this is a Naughty Dog problem.
 

wuth

Member
I think this is a misleading generalization. I'm sure not all AAA companies force their employees to work 80 hour weeks. If anything, this is a Naughty Dog problem.

I know a few people that have done work over there. It's... an interesting culture from what I've gathered. Very corporate and no bullshit, especially when compared to other companies in the area, like Sony Santa Monica and Riot, which are all about investing in their workers and developing lasting relationships.

It comes with the territory of being 'the best.' The stakes are very high over there, but they also are all about that $ and are seen as a bit conservative.
 

Zemm

Member
She was literally working two jobs worth of hours, I hope at the very least she got paid accordingly but I doubt it.
 

Josh5890

Member
There are a lot of factors to consider. Please note that I am not a developer in any way, shape, or form. I am a simple retail worker but this is my two cents.

1. Adding more employees would in theory speed up game development. However you can only hire enough employees before you have diminishing returns. At some point you have too many cooks in the kitchen and production will suffer. A solution to this could be to have a rotation of teams working like the fire department (i.e- 1 day on, 1 day off or 2 days on 2 days off). They would be 12 hour shifts but you wouldn't work more than a couple days in a row, production would continue at a brisk pace, and more people would have jobs. A problem with this would be if there wasn't good continuity between the two teams.

2. Slowing down game development to allow employees to work less would mixed results. The positive is that employees would be happier since there would be less stress working only 40-45 hours. However it is argued that game development already takes a long time. Extending development would hurt development in an industry where technology changes every five minutes. It has been mentioned earlier in this thread how development on a game starts when the industry is completely different than when it ends. Adding another year or two could possibly cause more problems for developers. This also leads to my third point.

3. We can complain about executives and shareholders all we want about how they aren't working the long hours and how they don't have to deal with the stress that the developers do. Unfortunately though, the executives still and always will call the shots. Also, shareholders care about the bottom line. If the shareholders aren't happy, then you have big problems on your hands. Telling both groups that development costs will rise and/or slow down is tough to do. When less games are released in a calendar year, there is less potential for revenue to be made. Publishers could raise prices of games and DLC to make more money to recoup those losses, but that leads to my fourth point.

4. How would the public respond to an increase in game prices? Some of us are saying that we would be willing to pay more but we aren't the mass audience. How often would parents be willing to shell out $80 for latest Madden or Horizon for little Joey. I would imagine that the mainstay franchises would see minimal losses in terms of copies sold but what about the lesser known titles? Those titles already suffer from poor sales early on and end up seeing their prices slashed by the holidays. In an environment where pre-orders and 1st month/quarter sales are very important losing more of those sales can hurt new IP development.

5. My last point is the gamers. They are a very demanding clientele, and more often than not they are impossible to please. If a game has a great campaign but a week multiplayer the game sucks. If the game has a great multiplayer but a terrible or non-existent campaign the game sucks. If the game is single player only and lasts less than eight hours it sucks. If the game has day one DLC, it sucks. If the game has a metacritic below 75 it is garbage. Did that game just get delayed? Those lazy developers suck. That is the consensus with gamers. Obviously I don't speak for every gamer, but it feels like that is the sentiment in the industry. As paying customers we have the right to be critical of the finished product, but should gamers expect every game to be that killer app? I don't think it is ridiculous to ask for some changes in expectations with AAA games. Maybe if developers only had to focus on a single player campaign, there would be less work to be done, lowering the need to work 80 hour weeks.

My feelings are that the industry is in a tough spot. On one hand developers are often squeezed and forced to work crazy hours, resulting in stress that can hurt development. On the other hand, those who make the big decisions like green-lighting new games have to make tough decisions that can make or break the jobs of many under them. Making both sides happy is impossible in the current environment of the industry.

I agree that there needs to be a continuous discussion on all sides, including gamers.
 
It's amazing how you keep missing the meaning behind this metaphor. Some computer science problems aren't solved by putting more lines of code on the screen. In fact, the best kinds of problems are the kind that are efficient with as few lines of code as possible.


The "9 women can't birth a baby in 1 month" aphorism means that some types of problems cannot be solved by brute force. More people typing at a screen does not speed up problem solving.

You seem very narrow minded. For some reason, you are incapable of understanding that what I am saying is not that such problems should be solved by brute force. What I said is simply that if you have one guy loaded with work that would normally require five people, hiring more coders is not trying to solve the problem by brute force, it's just having the adequate workforce to complete the job, in order to have acceptable working hours. Why I say this? Because this happens all the time. People are often loaded with way more work than they can actually do. And the reason why the aphorism is not appropriate is that while you absolutely can have more people working on the same code, you can't have different women giving birth to the same child. So no matter how hard you try to spin it, in this specific context the aphorism is not that appropriate.

You're not a developer, are you?

Most of that 80 hours isn't spent typing on the keyboard.

I never said that most of that 80 hours is spent typing on a keyboard. However, whether they spend most of that time typing on a keyboard, smoking pot, dancing in circle or having a wild party with a topless waitress is not really the point here. The point is that the same job can either be completed by one guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week, with the difference begin the amount of individual workload.
 
I never said that most of that 80 hours is spent typing on a keyboard. However, whether they spend most of that time typing on a keyboard, smoking pot, dancing in circle or having a wild party with a topless waitress is not really the point here. The point is that the same job can either be completed by one guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week, with the difference begin the amount of individual workload.

That's not how coding works.
 

the1npc

Member
Would people be willing to pay a premium price, say $75-$80 for a game if it allowed a developer to hire enough people to finish a game while the employees are working 50-55 hours a week?


Honest question. I think I would.

Games are already 80-90 in canada now, fuck no. Just take longer to release the game I can wait there are 1000s of older games to play in the mean time
 

Eolz

Member
I'm a developer on something you could call a AAA game.
I've skipped most of those pages due to the thread moving fast, but those two answers synthesise it...

I think this is a misleading generalization. I'm sure not all AAA companies force their employees to work 80 hour weeks. If anything, this is a Naughty Dog problem.

It's a well known industry wide problem that working hours are too high for game developers.

Yes and no for both.
Naughty Dog and some other companies have a ridiculous problem, and even while it's known, I doubt she really worked 80+ hours weeks every week for 10 years. It's insane, and thinking about your work outside of it does not really count for this.
That said, this a thing that exists, and not only for crunch, but in this case, mostly for japanese companies and some departments (poor QA) of some terribly managed companies.

Crunch culture is a thing that is bit by bit going away thanks to better practices and people getting smarter by not taking pride in such a shitty practice anymore. Crunch before milestones obviously still happens, but not as badly as before, and wildly differs on regions but also on companies.
Not all AAA companies ask their employees to do that, even during hard crunch periods.

Some of the answers in this thread are either insanely naive, or absurdly awful. This is by making people more aware of this issue that this is getting better in this industry.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
The amount of people trying to downplay the conditions, that misunderstand how everything works, etc. and keep spouting their ignorant-as-fuck opinions is truly repugnant.
 

JinnAxel

Neo Member
You seem very narrow minded. For some reason, you are incapable of understanding that what I am saying is not that such problems should be solved by brute force. What I said is simply that if you have one guy loaded with work that would normally require five people, hiring more coders is not trying to solve the problem by brute force, it's just having the adequate workforce to complete the job, in order to have acceptable working hours. Why I say this? Because this happens all the time. People are often loaded with way more work than they can actually do. And the reason why the aphorism is not appropriate is that while you absolutely can have more people working on the same code, you can't have different women giving birth to the same child. So no matter how hard you try to spin it, in this specific context the aphorism is not that appropriate.



I never said that most of that 80 hours is spent typing on a keyboard. However, whether they spend most of that time typing on a keyboard, smoking pot, dancing in circle or having a wild party with a topless waitress is not really the point here. The point is that the same job can either be completed by one guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week, with the difference begin the amount of individual workload.

There's been a ton of research done on the subject of software development management, and it's generally accepted as fact that work done by a coder is not linearly divisible amongst multiple coders.

While, if you assume every coder has the same expertise, thought process, and familiarity with the code, yes maybe you can divide work easily. But add in the politics, reiteration, and the sheer size of a rapidly expanding code bank, and splitting work mid way through a development process will not halve the work of each developer.

Will it reduce workload? Maybe, but not too a point where it's financially reasonable to hire more people.

There's a lot more going on behind the curtains besides technical skill that slows down software development.

For example, let's say you're a baking a cake for someone. You're really good at baking chocolate cakes, so you get started on it. Halfway through they tell you they want a double decker chocolate vanilla cake with fruits on top, and the bottom layer being chocolate with the top layer vanilla. You don't have all the ingredients, so you ask your friend who also knows how to bake cakes to start working on the vanilla layer while you get missing ingredients. You get back and you find that the consistency of both layers of cake are different and you both need to find a way to fix this problem without making a new cake. You toil over night with your friend to figure out a proper recipe.

In the end you get it done, and the cake looks and tastes nice enough, but it probably would've taken as much time, if not a little longer if you just did everything yourself.

Does the example seem convoluted to you? Good. Cause software development is a complicated and somewhat unintuitive process, and my example is an over simplification of what can potentially happen.

The point people are trying to make as a response to you is that development isn't scalable. And the deeper into the process you are, the longer it takes new people to work as efficiently as old people. A job can't be completed by two people working 40 hour workloads than one person working 80. Not unless the one person working 80 was never a thing to begin with, and you always had 2 people doing the job. But hindsight is 20/20 and there is no way to know that before it actually happens.
 

III-V

Member
Sorry folks, its not delivering pizza or making coffee or even tending bar (and I have done all three).

You have to understand that when you are operating at an extremely high technical level, bringing someone new on isn't always a help. It can easily bog you down when you need to be focused. I can assure you that high level technical work requires disciplined focus. Even to others who perform highly technical jobs in the same industry, things do not work or operate the same between companies, and they may not be able to 'pick up the ball' immediately.

It's like asking someone to learn a foreign language in a weeks time. They are going to make mistakes before they can ever contribute, and you are going to spend time helping them get there.

Some people are not going to understand what it takes to function at a high technical level. It certainly does not involve spending 12 hrs. on your ass drinking coffee. Beyond the technical limitations are the creative ones, which have to fit within the technical side.

Have some fucking respect for true artists out there and give credit where credit is due and maybe you will learn something while your at it.
 

Lucas Sparks

Neo Member
I appreciate you guys talking about this! It is definitely an issue that gets forgotten and hopefully we can have a minimal crunch industry at some point.
 

Kal

Member
So she was a creative director AND writer? That seems like a lot to take on! I cannot imagine working an 80 hour week consistently for over 10 years. Thanks to some of the posts on the last few pages I now understand why hiring more people for coding wouldn't necessarily mean the work is done faster but surely wouldn't it make sense to have the writer and a creative director roles taken on by two people?
 

BeauRoger

Unconfirmed Member
Would people be willing to pay a premium price, say $75-$80 for a game if it allowed a developer to hire enough people to finish a game while the employees are working 50-55 hours a week?


Honest question. I think I would.

I certainly would. Honestly, I think we have been really spoiled these last couple of years when it comes to value and content.

Historically speaking, gaming is cheaper than ever, all while the actual development has gotten a lot harder and more time consuming. It costs more, developers take on more risk, its a lot more complex now than ever before, the list goes on. From a consumer perspective, games are generally much more ambitious in scope and when it comes to gameplay systems, many with robust multiplayer components, production values are much higher, and i wouldnt be suprise if average game lenght has increased substantially as well. Point is, no matter how you slice it, if your average "AAA" game was worth 60 dollars in the 90's and early 2000's, they certainly should be worth a lot more now by most metrics which can be reasonably compared.
 
Game industry programming jobs will never be a simple 9-5 job - crunch time hours and zero benefits are to be expected once you join it. I think you could skirt it if you hit the management tier, but for smaller companies more than likely you'll have just as bad of hours, but better benefits.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
No I am not. And there is no need to resort to personal insults here. He made an absolute statement and I pointed out that what he says is not true, and I provided an example.

The scenario you provide - a person working on AI being a different person working on shader coding - is already a division of labor. That already happens. That should be obvious to anybody who works on this stuff.

I'll ask again - are you a developer? If not, why do you take being called ignorant of the realities of development as an insult?
 
So you can't have one programmer writing AI routines, while having another writing shaders. You must have the same guy doing both.
You said the same job split between two people so they work less hours. Someone doing AI and someone doing shaders isn't the same job. That's two different jobs.
 

Renekton

Member
It's this line of thinking that keeps it a problem since the industry is highly sought after.
Which is interesting considering other sub-industry sectors' software jobs give far better pay and QoL.

I guess we all played games as kids but never directly interacted with medical equipment software or ERP transactions.
 
There's been a ton of research done on the subject of software development management, and it's generally accepted as fact that work done by a coder is not linearly divisible amongst multiple coders.

It is no fact that work done by a coder is never linearly divisible among multiple coders. And I can easily make an example. You have one guy writing audio DSP effects. He usually works 40 hours a week. Then you start developing a AAA game and need more and better DSP effects. So you would need the poor audio guy to work 80 hours a week now. It is not true that you can't hire a second audio guy and having him writing DSP effects as well, and they can't work equally well together.

While, if you assume every coder has the same expertise, thought process, and familiarity with the code, yes maybe you can divide work easily. But add in the politics, reiteration, and the sheer size of a rapidly expanding code bank, and splitting work mid way through a development process will not halve the work of each developer.

Will it reduce workload? Maybe, but not too a point where it's financially reasonable to hire more people.

There's a lot more going on behind the curtains besides technical skill that slows down software development.

For example, let's say you're a baking a cake for someone. You're really good at baking chocolate cakes, so you get started on it. Halfway through they tell you they want a double decker chocolate vanilla cake with fruits on top, and the bottom layer being chocolate with the top layer vanilla. You don't have all the ingredients, so you ask your friend who also knows how to bake cakes to start working on the vanilla layer while you get missing ingredients. You get back and you find that the consistency of both layers of cake are different and you both need to find a way to fix this problem without making a new cake. You toil over night with your friend to figure out a proper recipe.

In the end you get it done, and the cake looks and tastes nice enough, but it probably would've taken as much time, if not a little longer if you just did everything yourself.

Does the example seem convoluted to you? Good. Cause software development is a complicated and somewhat unintuitive process, and my example is an over simplification of what can potentially happen.


The point people are trying to make as a response to you is that development isn't scalable. And the deeper into the process you are, the longer it takes new people to work as efficiently as old people. A job can't be completed by two people working 40 hour workloads than one person working 80. Not unless the one person working 80 was never a thing to begin with, and you always had 2 people doing the job. But hindsight is 20/20 and there is no way to know that before it actually happens.

I love cakes. I really do. However, the problem here is that this same people didn't even take the time to actually read what I said, just as you didn't.

This is what I said

Let's say you need to write AI and Physic code for your game. You can have the job handled by a single guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week. In the second case, job will be completed within the same time frame but with significantly reduced individual workload.

I am clearly talking about tasks that can be scaled into multiple people. Now, are you really arguing that you can't have one guy working on AI and another working on Physics? I hope you are not.
 

Azzanadra

Member
She has the freedom to choose any jobs she wishes.

People would kill for that opportunity.

I don't feel sorry for her for a second.

I am more worried about the average employee going through this than Hennig. She is to Uncharted what Spielberg is to Indiana Jones, she is the auteur of the series for the most part and I am not surprised her life is that hectic, but she doesn't seem to mind and she knows the cost of being an artist of that caliber- being on top has to have a price like that. But the average employee going through that? That scares me, yet I don't know if they would agree because it seems like ND employees LOVE it there despite the crunch, I guess the prestige of being in a top studio and feeling like you are part of some great artistic endeavor is more important.

Which is why I think people are misconstruing this- make no mistake, I absolutely believe in better work conditions in this industry, 80 hours outside of crunch is horrible. But the developers themselves don't view themselves as people just doing a job, as people just working for money- these developers seem extremely passionate about their work and view themselves as artists and not some STEM grad slaving away at work.
 
It is no fact that work done by a coder is never linearly divisible among multiple coders. And I can easily make an example. You have one guy writing audio DSP effects. He usually works 40 hours a week. Then you start developing a AAA game and need more and better DSP effects. So you would need the poor audio guy to work 80 hours a week now. It is not true that you can't hire a second audio guy and having him writing DSP effects as well, and they can't work equally well together.


I am clearly talking about tasks that can be divided into multiple people. Now, are you really arguing that you can't have one guy working on AI and another working on Physics? I hope you are not.

The problem is you're assuming this already doesn't happen. It's already being done and people are working those kinds of hours.

Which is interesting considering other sub-industry sectors' software jobs give far better pay and QoL.

I guess we all played games as kids but never directly interacted with medical equipment software or ERP transactions.

I've always said that nobody gets into game dev to make money. There are plenty of other jobs out there that pay better that game developers are more than qualified for. I know at one point my wife was making double what I do doing software dev.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I am clearly talking about tasks that can be scaled into multiple people. Now, are you really arguing that you can't have one guy working on AI and another working on Physics? I hope you are not.

Are you suggesting this division of labor doesn't already occur? I hope you are not.
 
Of course it's not worth it, she's right.

Besides good pay, what are the perks? Unless you're working on a game from an iconic franchise, its forgotten once the new flavor of the month is released.
 
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