JonathanPower
Member
It's also a much more complex game. No one said throwing more people at it magically makes it go faster. The point was that having more people will help reduce the amount of work for each individual, thus reducing working hours.
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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
It's also a much more complex game. No one said throwing more people at it magically makes it go faster. The point was that having more people will help reduce the amount of work for each individual, thus reducing working hours.
It's good that you're even thinking about it and have the well-being of your employees in mind. A lot of managers just don't care.
Boombloxer
Member
Not exactly. There's a difference between a developer owned publisher and a true independent AAA house. There's not that many of the latter. In the former, it's in your best interest to keep your key talent happy.
So it's more nuanced than what you're making it out to be. It's not as cut and dry as you're making it.
Chris_Rivera
Member
I don't buy the complaints. Was she threatened with termination or something?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
There's absolutely zero reason for you not to believe what she's saying as this industry is absolutely notorious for the LONG periods of crunch time and how it affects individuals.
Pellegri Testament
Member
If you actually think game development is as fun as just playing the game, you haven't been paying attention, especially if you ignore the multiple devs in this thread alone (not to mention the dozens of other threads Gaf has had on this subject), saying as much. The complaints are very real throughout the industry, believing otherwise is sticking your head in the sand.
As someone who has worked on games that have had people added mid- to late-production, this is not always the best solution. There is significant cost in time and workhours lost when ramping new people up. That's only the tip of the iceberg.
This assumes the work is easily divisible for multiple people to work on, and that you have pipelines and/or workflows that allow more than X people to work on something simultaneously. Classic example: 9 women cannot make conceive and give birth to the same baby in 1 month.
Chris_Rivera
Member
Oh, I believe it. It's not the only industry that will burn you out, either. You don't do something for 10 years, unless you want to.
Chris_Rivera
Member
I said nothing about game development.
Pellegri Testament
Member
But the thread is about game development? Not sure why you would come in here just to lump every job together, when the thread is only discussing a single type of job.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
But this thread is specifically about game development, not other industries.
Depends. I'm FT salaried. I just wrapped a project (there was some crunch) but I got a TONNE of vacation days added (although I have X months to use these ones before they expire.) so I don't feel it was bad crunch since I did get that time back, in a way.
When I was contracting, I was paid hourly and got paid for OT.
bumpkin
Member
I get what she's saying and it all sounds awful, but in the back of my mind I remember those documents showing the bonuses Infinity Ward people were due for COD sales. You ship a game or two with those kinds of bonuses and you could throw it in the bank, quit your job and live off of the interest.
Fuck, look at guys like Cliffy B. I get the impression the dude is loaded; all from a decade or so in AAA game dev. I know money isn't everything, but let's face it, when you don't have enough money life can be pretty shitty.
Fuck, look at guys like Cliffy B. I get the impression the dude is loaded; all from a decade or so in AAA game dev. I know money isn't everything, but let's face it, when you don't have enough money life can be pretty shitty.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
Anything with long hours tends to be salaried--aside from jobs where you're billing clients hourly.
Companies don't want to pay existing employees time and a half or double time. If they have hourly employees its cheaper to hire more people to work part time or full time than pay overtime to existing employees (unless the extra hours are just needed short-term of course).
But cheapest of all is having salaried employees who are a fixed expense. Its why you see a lot of management positions in retail and what not be salaried. It's cheaper to just have a salaried person who's often logging 50-60+ hours than to pay them hourly plus overtime or have to hire more management personnel to get the work done in 40 hours or less a piece.
Arthr2ShdsJcksn
Banned
How much do these people working 80hr work weeks make?
I just couldn't imagine throwing that much of my life away unless I was getting mad-bank. Even then, I'd imagine 2-3 years would be the most I could handle....if I was younger too.
I just couldn't imagine throwing that much of my life away unless I was getting mad-bank. Even then, I'd imagine 2-3 years would be the most I could handle....if I was younger too.
chillybright
Banned
Without information on the pay, we are judging "whether something is worth it or not" by just the effort but not the reward.
entremet
Member
Those games sell in much factors higher than Uncharted games do.
talks about how the world works, thinks the creative director for naughty dog makes half a million a year in salary, lmfao
Those are an EXTREME rarity. Most companies are base salary and thats it.
Also seems to think every country functions exactly like the US. If you didn't get paid extra for working overtime over here, there would be riots. You also get extra for working weekends and during "uncomfortable hours".
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Yeah, developers are well paid, but there are very few Ken Levine, Jason West, Vince Zampella, Cliffy B-like celebrities who make bank.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think one of my issues with the "this is how the world works" straight talk is just that -- even if you believe that you have to live to work to get ahead -- it normalizes increasingly unattainable standards. When you establish that 40-hour work weeks are for candyasses that aren't going to hack it in the real world, how do I -- the aspiring worker who only wants to get ahead -- set myself apart from the pack now that I've browbeaten everyone into thinking that my level of effort is really just the new normal? Do I have to move into the office? Develop a caffeine pill addiction in an effort to conquer the need for a good night's rest?
-BLITZ-
Member
What's the difference between a game industry job and like any other job which goes into the same pit of hard work, time consuming and life torn apart. To me, she is right in what she said. It shows that stuff like these can happen at any level and category of jobs.
Croatoan
They/Them A-10 Warthog
Yeah, I have done the 9-5 grind (its 7-1130 currently) for 9 years and I cannot say I like it. My best productivity comes after lunch, generally between 1 and 5. Also, I have read a lot of studies that show that, in a average work day, an employee only does about 3 hours of good work (or something close to that). This would mean that 4-5 of the hours you are paying them, and paying for electricity, are completely wasted.
On a funded video game, that isn't a yearly, or bi yearly, installment, it doesn't really matter how long it takes to come out as long as your hours are not ballooning. Splitting up 80 hours over two weeks, or more, shouldn't matter to anyone other than shareholders. This is one of the negatives for going public with a company as a private one isn't beholden to anyone other than the owners who can set their own time frame for a project..
Negotiator
Member
Amy Hennig may be right, but that's only one part of the "AAA development is unsustainable" equation.
For example, how much money was lost because of the UC4 8-month delay? A new script had to be written along with new mocap, essentially throwing Amy's work away. Could it be millions of dollars? If so, this is the very definition of mismanagement from the higher ups.
I want to know the whole story, not just a "glimpse" of it.
For example, how much money was lost because of the UC4 8-month delay? A new script had to be written along with new mocap, essentially throwing Amy's work away. Could it be millions of dollars? If so, this is the very definition of mismanagement from the higher ups.
I want to know the whole story, not just a "glimpse" of it.
Humdinger
Gold Member
Not to downplay the suffering involved in working 80 hour weeks, but I'm guessing she found a lot of the work energizing, interesting, and fulfilling. And at least all her work paid off in one of the most highly-celebrated and iconic game series in history, plus lots of personal recognition.
I feel more sorry for the devs who work 80 hour weeks for years, then produce a game that is forgotten in the space of a month or two. I think that's probably a lot more common than the Amy Hennig scenario.
I feel more sorry for the devs who work 80 hour weeks for years, then produce a game that is forgotten in the space of a month or two. I think that's probably a lot more common than the Amy Hennig scenario.
Did you know who Amy Hennig was before this topic? Look at how many posts are asking about what her job was (Herp derp, how does one write scripts for 80 hours a week hurrr). I don't think the creative director at Naughty Dog gets a lot of personal recognition. Not to mention the rest of your post was the same "do it for the love!" schtick that has been torn to shreds all over this topic.
Chris_Rivera
Member
Was she even a developer? I thought she was a writer.
Humdinger
Gold Member
Of course I did. She's a multiple award-winner and one of the best-known writers in the videogame world.
Your interpretation of what I'm saying is a knee-jerk response free of any real understanding.
Obviously, she derived significant personal satisfaction from her work. She's saying it wasn't worth it, it burned her out, it cost too much. Ok -- I agree, that's a ridiculous lifestyle choice, in my opinion. But that doesn't mean she didn't find parts of the process very exciting and fulfilling. She chose to do it, after all. Doesn't make sense to think otherwise, unless we label her a masochist or helpless victim. I have more respect for her than that.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
What are you trying to do here exactly?
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Pellegri Testament
Member
Do you think that a game developer is only someone who works on a computer making the game?
Mr. Mister
Member
Many jobs that require crunch have output that is easily judged. It isn't about just putting in hours it's also about what you actually did and the quality of the work.
If someone could do the same job in 10 hours they'd get just as much recognition. People would then imagine the possibilities around that person working 60 hours - but still.
She is probably one of the biggest names in the industry.
Yes, she was a game designer for years before transitioning into a more creative role.
We face the same problem in IT. There's a constant flow of young people without a lot of external responsibilities, family, or interests, who gladly take on these no-life working hours. The older people with lives kill themselves to sustain thier lifestyle, that their family expects. There's no real options. Going down to the local gas station for $10 an hours will also quickly lead a dissolved family as well. Past generations had this all figured out. The corporations made those solutions seem dirty.
If it's free from understanding, that's because you're not conveying anything beyond meaningless platitudes. She enjoys her work. Ok, so? Clearly she didn't enjoy all of it, considering that she has a lot to complain about.
If you want your "it's her choice!" spiel torn apart, read the thread. You're not saying anything mind blowing or even new in your comments. It's the same-old same-old.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Maybe read up on the person whose name is in the title of the thread before posting and pulling this "I don't buy it" bullshit.
Look, I get that the OP didn't make it super duper obvious (her position "as a director" is only mentioned as an aside in the fourth paragraph of the linked source of the quote that's the subject of the thread), but even so I'm still kind of shocked how many people keep running into the thread with this misconception about her position.
I mean, it seems like all these people have to have known something about what she did to say she was a writer. But, like, she was leading development on Uncharted 4 before she left. Did they think Straley and Druckmann just took over script-writing duties?
I'll quote her Wikipedia entry to be clearer about what she did:
Wikipedia said:
There's something to be said for getting into the industry at the right time. Those that got in in the 90s and made it through to the 00s seem to have done well as a result of it being a much smaller pool at the time, which means having rare levels of experience, and therefore having decent salaries and flexibility. Those who have entered more recently are always going to be fighting an uphill battle against a much larger population of game developers trying to "make it".
Not going to happen. So many of those posts in this thread. Right there with the 'she must have wanted it so she should stop whining' posts. She did a lot. She was driven to do it, but I don't see how that is supposed to mean she can't look back on it as too much, especially for others with more family.
cartman414
Member
What if nothing else satisfies you? Just because a person does what they love doesn't mean they should have to put up with thankless hours, especially given that their efforts are resulting in major bank somewhere. As has already been said, those games don't just make themselves.
That seems like a fair analysis, although there are definitely ways they could be modernised.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Sure. But what I'm saying is I see it time and time again where people act like a normal, 40-hour work week is just something that does not occur out in the real world if you want to work in a serious, professional field where you command some degree of respect. I feel like people have just so bought into the corporate mantra that they don't realize that "live to work" isn't just the mantra of people that want to get ahead, it's seemingly what everyone is being spoonfed. I've mentioned it a couple of times already, but people seem to not recognize any sort of middle ground between in terms of aspirations. You can either be the workaholic that wants to be CEO some day, or you can be a lazy ass who will inevitably be shitcanned for someone else that's going to want to be CEO some day.
The notion that there can be positions where you simply aspire to be good and make a decent, livable wage while still being able to have a personal/family life and slowly climb the ladder due to your valued experience just seems like an alien concept to some.
Well that's because before game development was just a "job" any schmuck with a programming book could do, like Levine got his career started through a magazine ad or something, these guys were lucky to join the industry in its infancy. Its only recently that its become a career, and if the amount of aspiring developers in my university is anything to go by, its only going to be time before it becomes the equivalent to being involved in a movie or TV show production, assuming game studios stay at a relatively small size of a few hundred people at most.
Yeah, but how much money did you make?
A lot of people work long hours and get paid lots, it's just the nature of some industries and is a personal career choice.
Some industries are just like that and it's something people would do well to research prior to getting into a field. An issue with long hours would arise if she was told something different at the time of taking the position(s) or if she wasn't fairly compensated.
A lot of people work long hours and get paid lots, it's just the nature of some industries and is a personal career choice.
Some industries are just like that and it's something people would do well to research prior to getting into a field. An issue with long hours would arise if she was told something different at the time of taking the position(s) or if she wasn't fairly compensated.
Steve Youngblood
Member
It seems like despite the conditions though (which may indeed be bad) the people working at ND still love their work, have a pretty good glass door rating: https://www.glassdoor.ca/Reviews/Naughty-Dog-Reviews-E134488.htm
Not to mention you don't hear horror stories like from Irrational Games or the guys who made LA Noire.
I think what a lot of people may not understand that game developers, at least to themselves are "artists". They are not just an employee at a company. They envision themselves as creators and don't see working as something they are forced into just to pay the bills- especially at top studios like ND.
Not to mention you don't hear horror stories like from Irrational Games or the guys who made LA Noire.
I think what a lot of people may not understand that game developers, at least to themselves are "artists". They are not just an employee at a company. They envision themselves as creators and don't see working as something they are forced into just to pay the bills- especially at top studios like ND.
JonathanPower
Member
There are situations where people are loaded with much more work than they can actually do, which results in things getting delayed and half-ass jobs. Instead of adding people at mid- to late-production, how about having an adequate number of people since the beginning? But that would mean knowing how to run a company.
Again, not the best metaphor in this context. Different people can put their hands on a keyboard and write lines of code for the same piece of software, but only a single women can biologically conceive a baby. And it's not really about making things faster, it's about reducing individual workload. Let's say you need to write AI and Physic code for your game. You can have the job handled by a single guy working 80 hours a week or by two guys working 40 hours a week. In the second case, job will be completed within the same time frame but with significantly reduced individual workload.