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[Isaac Otherworld]

Oh. No. Not. Ties. To. Wall. Street.


Like do people think everybody and every company on Wall Street is comically villanous? A gargantuan portion of the worlds finances go through Wall Street. Almost anyone with decent wealth has some connection. Yet there are good people with wealth (Warren Buffet, say) and bad and everything in between. Is there any evidence any of her dealings with Wall Street are sinister? Cause we seen her speeches, they were pathetically innocuous.

Just to clarify so everyone knows where I stand, I am voting for Clinton next week. I'm actively pushing everyone I know to vote Clinton. I voted for Bernie in the primary. Most of my time volunteering post convention has been working to get disaffected Bernie voters to come out for Clinton.

I'm not a Bernie or Buster. I'm not a "both parties are shit" kind of person. Trump isn't shit. He's a landmine. Please don't treat me as such.

On to your points.

A global financial crisis caused by criminal fraud by almost all major wall street firms with no repercussions towards those responsible is going to do that to public opinion.

I believe we need a financial industry. I'm not some anti-capitalist who wants to tear down everything. But if the 2008 crash has taught us anything, it should be that these people should not be allowed to self regulate, we shouldn't hire them as federal regulators, and the regulatory system currently in place creates perverse incentives and is only going to lead to bad outcomes. Dodd-Frank didn't change that.

No one really thought Hillary Clinton's speeches were recordings of dastardly secret plots where Hillary Clinton was auctioning off various states to her secret Wall street masters. It's just emblematic of the kind of pool she swims in.

The most problematic thing in her Wall Street speeches is that Clinton is still under the delusion these people are the smartest people in the room. They aren't. Giving the financial industry every regulatory provision they wanted got us the 2008 financial crash.

The next most problematic thing in those speeches is Clinton praising plans to cut social security benefits and raise the retirement age as "The kind of bold leadership we need."

She's not diabolically evil. But those are not good positions and democratic voters should be actively and aggressively lobbying her away from those. It would be nice if Clinton enthusiasts could at least admit that, then there might not be such a festering divide between the party right now.

Probably because the far left won't like an honest answer of "Yeah I try to court business types. I'm not some dumbass that tries to minimize how many people will vote for me by only supporting those that are perfectly aligned with my party on every single issue. If you want Democrats to be able to actually get done then stop it with this party purity bullshit."

I absolutely wish she could give that answer, but unfortunately the far left seems to not get how politics work and would feel "betrayed" by the idea that Hillary gets shit done by appealing to more than just liberals and progressives.

Let's call it what it is: a combination of party purity bullshit and obsession with having an "establishment" to be opposed to.

Yeah Wallstreet has done some fucked up things. But you don't win as many seats as possible by sticking to everyone who doesn't 100% align with your base. Business Type conservatives and Moderate Conservatives have the potential to become part of the democratic Big Tent for a generation. You don't respond to such an opportunity by going "well you don't align with me on everything, so fuck off".

Those "business type conservatives" and "moderate conservatives" are people who have been lobbying for years to privatize social security and medicare / medicaid. It's not that they don't align with me on everything. It's that they don't align with me or the democratic platform on anything. Not cutting social security is literally the most popular policy position among the American public. No one in the democratic party should be conceding that to conservatives. It's not just bad policy, it's bad politically as well.

We live in an era will big business and corporations have never done better. Their profits have never been higher. Half of all children in public schools live in poverty. Wages have been stagnant for 40 years. We've recovered number of jobs lost by the 2008 crash, but most of the jobs gained are low paying service jobs. Global Warming is already having an impact on the world environment and poses an existential threat to society (Don't get met started on Clinton's fracking policy. Methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than carbon.). At what point have we given them enough?

 

[shoplifter]

Ok let me try an example just to see how you feel about it. I would appreciate non aggressive replies and respect. .

You fell for it and thought Amirox was going to respond with anything but sanctimonious bullshit.

 

[Amir0x]

Shoelacer, if you dont want to participate, dont participate. If you cannot attack points being raised, please stop wasting everyones time with your pathetic infantile whining.

You cant even get jokes i make correct today. Youre up your ass today and cant even tell.

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

I dont have empathy for her if what you describe is 100% accurate because from what you wrote ignorant is at least a term that can be used to describe her. Though you couched it in pleasant language, the way she turned against immigrants is precisely the type of rationale used to hide inherent racism.

She is likely both, and you are too close to her to want those negative labels assigned to her. What makes me even want to cast off even the gentlest of those labels - sheer ignorance - is that she knows Trump is hurting those groups. You want me to have empathy for her when she is incapable of doing it for immigrants?

I dont know her so i can only go by what you wrote. I tried to genuinely be as kind as possible about your description. There are tons of devastated communities like that in Ohio and PA. And yet just because your community has gone through shit doesnt make it ok or understandable to turn to nativist racism.

Even on your part, the idea that having a latina grandkid and loving them makes it unlikely motivated by racism is kind of racist. People often have blindspots for their own family, and yet exercise reprehensible racist views outside. It is essentially equivalent to "I have a black friend.".

That there were viable concerns that led to racist or xenophobic views does not actually change what the views are.

And i have no patience for it in my own family. I dont talk to my brother because he is racist and a Trump supporter. And dude, he and I are 50% puerto rican, 50% italian jewish. And sure, there was something that i can say led him there - a horribly violent experience with African Americans when he was in prison. Guess what though? He is still racist, still ignorant and still reprehensible for voting Trump.

Understood, I appreciate the tame response. In my opinion the term ignorant could be applied to most voters, both Trump and Hillary due to most people don't really know what most people they vote for stand behind. So you agree she is in the right for points 1 and 2, but not point 3?

You're lamenting her position on point 3 on all immigrants... she doesn't have issues with immigrants, she disagrees with how some come into the town and treat it as a temporary home but she doesn't want them out, she struggles with the illegal immigrants who follow them and then take jobs for the fact that they are willing to work for less or off the books. Is that inherent racism if they are here illegally? The point about the grandchild was more that she's not stereotyping based on region, race, or where they come from rather how they got here in the first place.

You might be right that I'm too close to the situation to view accurately... I mean I have compassion for illegal immigrants and what they go through to find a better life (hell, I live in Southern California, I'm surrounded by it), but I can understand people who don't approve of illegal immigration due to what it can do to communities.

 

[Amir0x]

I will respond Dr. in a few moments, eating dinner. One thing though: Shoelacer, you see? Thats why you keep your fucking face out of shit that you dont want to bother participating in. Right as you post that, embarrassed by the guy my response was aimed at. You done soiling yourself today now for like the eight topic?

 

[Azzanadra]

Seriously why isn't Donna removed yet? I guess Hillary doesn't want to make yet another negative headline with this little time left. If she doesn't get removed before election day, I expect her gone immediately after Hillary secures victory.

Its not even this, didn't she try to manufacture some narrative about GHWB's supposed infidelity as a way of discrediting/harming him, while herself being an adviser and supporting an actually known philanderer (Bill Clinton)? That level of hypocrisy would cost most people their position in society.

 

[TestOfTide]

I expect my political leaders to operate with integrity and consistency, no matter the cost. is that too much to ask?

if someone asked you to support homophobic legislation in 2004 would you?

Depends on the era to be frank.

I don't support what Netanyahu is doing, but I'm not going to hold it against a candidate for supporting Israel because, again to be frank, it's political suicide for a US politician not to support Israel.

The issue in 2004 was gay marriage, and as much as I was for it, the simple fact is that too many people at the time were at best only for civil unions.

Political Purity is for crazies and idiots.


Shoelace, you are either a liar or an idiot for claiming that big businesses don't align with you an ANY political issues, unless you are saying you don't give a shit about:

- LGBTQ issues (look at how many businesses have been pushing back against shit like HB2)

- Having a stable economy (maybe a lot of them are against redistribution of wealth, but none of them want an unstable economy)

- Having functional alliances with other nations. (Business types want it for business purposes but in the end they are still for functional alliances)

- Having someone besides the orange dipshit as POTUS

 

[Azzanadra]

Depends on the era to be frank.

I don't support what Netanyahu is doing, but I'm not going to hold it against a candidate for supporting Israel because, again to be frank, it's political suicide for a US politician not to support Israel.

The issue in 2004 was gay marriage, and as much as I was for it, the simple fact is that too many people at the time were at best only for civil unions.

Political Purity is for crazies and idiots.

Ok, but you cannot deny that Bernie presented a way better alternative even if his position wasn't perfect in regards to Palestine. This isn't even party purity, because Bernie's position wasn't the best but its presented a significant step forward. Bernie was no doubt pro-Israel, but he was at least neutral to the Palestinians. I still don't understand how Bernie's ideas are "OMG so radical, hang that commie jew!" to some democrats, because he really is just bringing y'all up to speed with the rest of the western world.

 

[Amir0x]

Understood, I appreciate the tame response. In my opinion the term ignorant could be applied to most voters, both Trump and Hillary due to most people don't really know what most people they vote for stand behind. So you agree she is in the right for points 1 and 2, but not point 3?

I mean certainly she has legitimate reasons to be generally disaffected. But the way she seems to express it is by blaming outside groups and assigning the decline of her vision of America to all illegal immigrants (i mean we dont even need to get into how she knows they are illegal. Does she run background checks on every brown person?).

I am not sure though how someone who finds this so important to her life is not doing the research into these candidates to know how ridiculous Trumps wall idea is or how unfeasible it is. Or how it can literally never happen. Like if i was honestly concerned, i would find out how to actually parse legitimate promises from bad ones.

But of course many voters are ignorant.. i do agree. It is just not all ignorance is equal. If one form of ignorance leads to racism and racist policies, and another leads to them erroneously picking Hillary cause they think it will bring Universal Health Care... Which is worth wasting the time to condemn?

You're lamenting her position on point 3 on all immigrants... she doesn't have issues with immigrants, she disagrees with how some come into the town and treat it as a temporary home but she doesn't want them out, she struggles with the illegal immigrants who follow them and then take jobs for the fact that they are willing to work for less or off the books. Is that inherent racism if they are here illegally? The point about the grandchild was more that she's not stereotyping based on region, race, or where they come from rather how they got here in the first place.

How does she even know they dont care? Is that even something one can honestly gauge from afar without beggining to go down the slippery slope of wild stereotypes and assumptions?

You might be right that I'm too close to the situation to view accurately... I mean I have compassion for illegal immigrants and what they go through to find a better life (hell, I live in Southern California, I'm surrounded by it), but I can understand people who don't approve of illegal immigration due to what it can do to communities.

If the community was devastated before the immigrants arrived there, how is it their fault it isnt immediately paradise once they are there? That shit could take generations to recover when you lose major business like that.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I don't support what Netanyahu is doing, but I'm not going to hold it against a candidate for supporting Israel because, again to be frank, it's political suicide for a US politician not to support Israel.
.

I don't think this is a very good excuse. Politicians have used the same argument to maintain a dangerous status quo that get people hurt and killed because keeping their seat warm has been more important than doing what is right.

And at the same token there has been many politicians who all over the world throughout history have taken positions that was right- despite it being "political suicide".
John Oliver touched on this brilliantly in the daily show gun debate.


I don't think it's political suicide. She would be able to make a compromise. Another way of supporting israel through economic and non-military funding that didn't enable Netanyahu to this behavior.

 

[MIMIC]

Who told her this was a good idea? Jesus, talk about being tone deaf.

So basically: cheat, lie about it, then justify it after getting caught.

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

I mean certainly she has legitimate reasons to be generally disaffected. But the way she seems to express it is by blaming outside groups and assigning the decline of her vision of America to all illegal immigrants (i mean we dont even need to get into how she knows they are illegal. Does she run background checks on every brown person?).

I am not sure though how someone who finds this so important to her life is not doing the research into these candidates to know how ridiculous Trumps wall idea is or how unfeasible it is. Or how it can literally never happen. Like if i was honestly concerned, i would find out how to actually parse legitimate promises from bad ones.

But of course many voters are ignorant.. i do agree. It is just not all ignorance is equal. If one form of ignorance leads to racism and racist policies, and another leads to them erroneously picking Hillary cause they think it will bring Universal Health Care... Which is worth wasting the time to condemn?

I think you're stretching here and taking my first post a little out of context. The decline of her town she is not blaming on immigrants (whether legal or illegal) she believes it was the major company the town was built on that pulled out of the city as what lead to the major deterioration. Off-shoring of jobs and incentives for big business to pursue profit outside of the US is what really rattles her cage.

She's not for a wall either... you're sort of reaching again on my post. I understand you're working on the basis of the limited facts given to you, but you can't just assume things like this.. just like you can't assume these things about all of Trumps voters. She doesn't want a wall and she doesn't want tax money wasted on something that will never work. She wants stronger regulation on employers to prevent illegal immigrants to take work. She doesn't know how to do this (honestly I've told her that it is very difficult, no company in a small town is going to deny cheap, undocumented labor), but she wants to believe that someone can enforce change. And the way Trump speaks makes her think that.

Let me ask you had I not given you the context around the immigration would that change your opinion of her? You seem to be avoiding the fact that she by and large blames politicians, policy makers, and big business for the ruin of her hometown, with illegal immigration being a negative side effect that stemmed from their decisions.

How does she even know they dont care? Is that even something one can honestly gauge from afar without beggining to go down the slippery slope of wild stereotypes and assumptions?

Agreed. She doesn't necessarily. It's a small town though, it's hard to keep things a major secret and she knows a lot of people who run their own small businesses (primarily in farming and agriculture) and they utilize illegal immigrants for cheap manual labor. Is she extrapolating a small subset of what she knows about the greater size of the community? Possibly but keep in mind the population of the town is ~10,000. I've probably seen academic research studies using smaller sample sizes.

If the community was devastated before the immigrants arrived there, how is it their fault it isnt immediately paradise once they are there? That shit could take generations to recover when you lose major business like that.

Again see my first couple paragraphs. She doesn't blame them for the decline of the community that happened before immigrants (both legal and illegal) arrived. She generally dislikes how some (and she admits a minor subset) treat the town as a temporary living space and thus do not treat it to the standards she would hope but that's minor to her. She is more concerned with US citizens in her community not being able to find work and then knowing full and well that illegal immigrants (that are linked to legal immigrants within the community) are working on local farmland.

As said before thanks for the respectable discussion!

 

[diablos991]

So basically: cheat, lie about it, then justify it after getting caught.

A person our children can look up to.

 

[USC-fan]

So basically: cheat, lie about it, then justify it after getting caught.

omg that is a real.... WTF are people thinking.

 

[TestOfTide]

I don't think this is a very good excuse. Politicians have used the same argument to maintain a dangerous status quo that get people hurt and killed because keeping their seat warm has been more important than doing what is right.

And at the same token there has been many politicians who all over the world throughout history have taken positions that was right- despite it being "political suicide".
John Oliver touched on this brilliantly in the daily show gun debate.


I don't think it's political suicide. She would be able to make a compromise. Another way of supporting israel through economic and non-military funding that didn't enable Netanyahu to this behavior.

Except as I remember that gun lobby episode mentioning, the vast majority of people DO in fact support the gun control measures Democrats are proposing. Meanwhile the vast majority of Americans still support Israel.

The deplorable I was responding to before was basically making the argument that politicians should be people who never lie in their entire lives, which is just stupid.

 

[msdstc]

So basically: cheat, lie about it, then justify it after getting caught.

I fucking despise this election.

 

[rjinaz]

A person our children can look up to.

That's rich coming from a Trump defender.

She needs to go. I'll tell you that. Most are saying that in this very thread. But what else can I say? I'm not voting her in for president and haven't supported her in anyway. And no I do not condone what she did at all. All she did was add Hillary controversy.

 

[black_13]

Man I used to be a supporter of Clinton but after all the shady stuff like this, rigging Palestinian election, saying she's going to attack Iran if she becomes president and rigging the DNC to make Bernie lose, she seems like an awful choice for president.

On one side I want her to lose, on the other hand majority of Trump supporters are racist assholes. This just seems like a lose lose situation for America.

 

[Amir0x]

Man I used to be a supporter of Clinton but after all the shady stuff like this, rigging Palestinian election, saying she's going to attack Iran if she becomes president and rigging the DNC to make Bernie lose, she seems like an awful choice for president.

On one side I want her to lose, on the other hand majority of Trump supporters are racist assholes. This just seems like a lose lose situation for America.

what she does not say she is going to attack Iran if she becomes president (she said in 2008 she would if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons), nor did she rig the DNC to make Bernie lose. He lost on his own terms. By 3.6 million votes. It wasn't close.

Please stop inventing new and bolder ways to pretend she's evil or equally as bad.

 

[NurseRedHeart]

Man I used to be a supporter of Clinton but after all the shady stuff like this, rigging Palestinian election, saying she's going to attack Iran if she becomes president and rigging the DNC to make Bernie lose, she seems like an awful choice for president.

On one side I want her to lose, on the other hand majority of Trump supporters are racist assholes. This just seems like a lose lose situation for America.

Despite all the alleged corruption I still think Hillary would be better for all her established connections and experience in politics. Trump has no business being a candidate. Ultimately if we had Bernie Sanders we wouldnt have all this nonsense to deal wtih for this election, it would have been another easy win for the Democrats.

Laslty I'm glad CNN is doing the right thing here, I hope they weren't actually in on it though.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Man I used to be a supporter of Clinton but after all the shady stuff like this, rigging Palestinian election, saying she's going to attack Iran if she becomes president and rigging the DNC to make Bernie lose, she seems like an awful choice for president.

On one side I want her to lose, on the other hand majority of Trump supporters are racist assholes. This just seems like a lose lose situation for America.

whaaaaaaat

This is so textbook too

I used to be a Clinton supporter until *insert ridiculous claims and conspiracies not based in reality here*

Don't buy it for a second.

 

[Latimer]

"Crooked Hillary"

But really this is shitty.

 

[Valhelm]

Who told her this was a good idea? Jesus, talk about being tone deaf.

I think 2016 will mark a subtle but unfortunate downturn in electoral transparency and honesty.

Man I used to be a supporter of Clinton but after all the shady stuff like this, rigging Palestinian election, saying she's going to attack Iran if she becomes president and rigging the DNC to make Bernie lose, she seems like an awful choice for president.

On one side I want her to lose, on the other hand majority of Trump supporters are racist assholes. This just seems like a lose lose situation for America.

As bad as Hillary can be, she isn't a fascist. Trump will make America remarkably worse for most Americans. Once he's out of the way we can deal with the corruption, imperialism, and dishonesty of the status quo.

 

[JABEE]

The sad thing is that Clinton will win and reset what is and isn't controversial or shocking. This election season is hurting our country. Our expectations of leaders will continue to go lower and lower.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

I think 2016 will mark a subtle but unfortunate downturn in electoral transparency and honesty.



As bad as Hillary can be, she isn't a fascist. Trump will make America remarkably worse for most Americans. Once he is out of the way we can deal with problems in the status quo.

To be fair Brazile is being quite transparent and honest there lmao.

She gets paid to win elections and push an agenda. That's literally her job. Trump surrogates on CNN get paid to do the same thing. I've never understood being upset at these people for doing their job. We can argue about whether they're good at it or not - and I certainly don't think Brazile or Trump surrogates are good at anything.

In terms of the question being passed along...shit happens. Campaigns plant people in audiences, pay people to ask certain questions, pay agitators/protestors, set people up, etc. This is politics. I don't like Hillary Clinton yet even I'll admit she gets blamed for a lot of shit that everyone else is literally getting away with. Obama is from Chicago, let's not act like he's some angel who never played hardball. He's where he's at right now because he's ruthless when he has to be, like any great politician.

The big difference between this election and previous ones is that you got to see some of the sausage get made, thanks to Wikileaks.

 

[DarkKyo]

As bad as Hillary can be, she isn't a fascist. Trump will make America remarkably worse for most Americans. Once he's out of the way we can deal with the corruption, imperialism, and dishonesty of the status quo.

Bahahaha, I actually laughed out loud at this. I'm sure this will happen.

 

[diablos991]

I think 2016 will mark a subtle but unfortunate downturn in electoral transparency and honesty.



As bad as Hillary can be, she isn't a fascist. Trump will make America remarkably worse for most Americans. Once he's out of the way we can deal with the corruption, imperialism, and dishonesty of the status quo.

Hillary isn't going to break he status quo. She is the status quo vote this year.

Clintons definitely aren't going to weed out corruption. Only those they don't agree with or are dangerous to them.

 

[mercenar1e]

As bad as Hillary can be, she isn't a fascist. Trump will make America remarkably worse for most Americans. Once he's out of the way we can deal with the corruption, imperialism, and dishonesty of the status quo.

The clintons will do this? Please tell me you're joking.

 

[Madness]

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-10-21/news/mn-4253_1_george-bush

Someone posted some picture of Donna Brazile resigning before due to lies and smear type tactics and I thought it was a fake. But I googled it and it was actual news. I wouldn't put it past her to use any means necessary to ensure her candidate is elected. This is not a Hillary issue in my mind, but these party officials crooked as shit.

 

[Jakoo]

Wanted to bump this topic with regards to an article I came across today that is alleging a bit more involvement between CNN and the DNC.

Obviously, the Washington Examiner is a pretty damn conservative paper, so this article should be looked at via that lens, but the leaked emails that are linked within are somewhat damning.

Is it typical for a news organization to reach out to the opposing party to get questions to ask against someone that party opposes? I can see how it might make sense because obviously an opposing party might have already done some legwork into the types of hard questions that could be asked of a candidate, but it seems it would only make sense if it was done fairly across the aisle.

This again doesn't seem like a great look between CNN and the DNC, but perhaps this is more common then it appears to be?