Support NeoGAF

[Bastables]

Thankfully none have been killed thanks to police shutting everything down before it can start. Look at the G20 protests. Antifa was so dangerous police had to leave a district of 50k people because they were under attack by them. Police only ever entered the district again after counter terrorism special forces (with flashbangs and assault rifles in use)cleared the rooftops of antifa protestors.


If you don’t know the difference between war and burning civilian cars or attack police i don‘t think this discussion is worth having


That’s not true. Look at east germany for example

So a bunch of drunk mayday german protesters have killed no one then....

But hay the more violent g20 protests have also resulted in no deaths... morally equivilent to american nazi's/ alt right then right /s

 

[Xando]

The CIvil Rights and the women's suffrage movements used way more violence than Antifa ever did.
You think they're not one inch better than Nazis or ISIS?

Again, any kind of political violence is something i don’t agree with.

Throughout my countries history political violence brought nothing but suffer and death.

So a bunch of drunk mayday german protesters have killed no one then....

But hay the more violent g20 protests have also resulted in no deaths... morally equivilent to american nazi's/ alt right then right /s

Nice whataboutism you have here.

Political violence in any shape of form is despicable.

 

[Aiii]

Nothing like a good misquote to get the pitchforks going.

 

[Bastables]

Equating the current political climate to the holocaust and WW2 is disingenuous and insulting to the victims.



You do realize that in both cases, the power vacuum was filled by another dictator. That both deaths only enforced the cult of personality with their respective parties.

Maybe don't support fascism and the resulting ethic cleansing wars that result.

Maybe don't let american fascists literally say hail trump (Heil Hitler) Hail Victory (Sieg Heil) and fucking blood and soil in an attempt to replicate Hitler's fucking horror show.

 

[Bastables]

Again, any kind of political violence is something i don’t agree with.

Throughout my countries history political violence brought nothing but suffer and death.


Nice whataboutism you have here.

Political violence in any shape of form is despicable.

Pointing out the lack of deaths in your whaboutisms is now whataboustisms....

Yeah right mate.

 

[MrMysterio]

I'm quite interested what part of Antifa is mainly about videogames.

 

[Chichikov]

Again, any kind of political violence is something i don’t agree with.

Throughout my countries history political violence brought nothing but suffer and death.

So that's a yes?
Women suffragists and MLK are not one inch better than Nazis in your mind?

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you actually think that, very few people do, I'm trying to illustrate the (il)logical conclusions of your stated convictions.

 

[Xando]

Maybe don't support fascism and the resulting ethic cleansing wars that result.

Maybe don't let american fascists literally say hail trump (Heil Hitler) Hail Victory (Sieg Heil) and fucking blood and soil in an attempt to replicate Hitler's fucking horror show.

If you don’t like what they say promote laws against it instead of going down on their level and use violence.

So that's a yes?
Women suffragists and MLK are not one inch better than Nazis in your mind?

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you actually think that, very few people do, I'm trying to illustrate the (il)logical conclusions of your stated convictions.

If they have to use violence? Absolutely yes.
There have been many points throughout human history where peaceful protests helped bring great results.


Now don’t get me wrong you certainly have a right to self defense (Which if my limited knowledge of US civil rights protest was mostly used by otherwise peacefull protestors) but if you go out to attack police officers or destroy neighborhoods to further your political beliefs you are not better than islamists or nazis.

 

[jph139]

That's war. One they started too.

Also, I'd rather have seen Hitler (who killed himself btw) and Mussolini captured and tried. Mob rule is never the right answer.

I've always found the Nuremberg Trials to be one of the most valorous acts of the 20th century. After a ton of war crimes and atrocities, by the Allies as well as the Axis, it would have been so easy to just hunt the Nazi bastards down and shoot on sight. No one would have complained.

But the Western powers stepped back and said - no, we're committed to a rule of law. All people, no matter their crimes, whether the winners or the losers, are subject to that law. They will be tried and sentenced appropriately.

Use violence when necessary, but when it's not necessary, stop using it.

 

[Badabing]

The CIvil Rights and the women's suffrage movements used way more violence than Antifa ever did.
You think they're not one inch better than Nazis or ISIS?

Ha, they actually had something worth fighting for. That's the difference bud.

And I think you are touching on something here. America is a much different place than the rest of the world. We don't need ANTIFA, we already have the Constitution and the 2nd amendment.

I'm not worried about the rise of facism in America.. What I'm worried about are these masked thugs crowding the streets and being violent. They would better serve their communities by participating in Capitalism not rejecting it. One day they will clash with a right wing movement in the wrong state and people will die.

But thats the brakes for fighting an imaginary enemy right?

 

[MadJackChurchill]

Yeah because the best way to REALLY fight fascism is with shitty punchlines on a night comedy show. Totally.

 

[weekev]

Any group that not only condones, but encourages violence and property smashing at every turn they can should reasonably be labeled a terrorist group.

Punch Nazis all you want but do it in self defense. Don't be the aggressor. It hurts your cause more than helps it.

This is a pretty succinct summary of Noah's point. But no let's get the pitchforks out and react to the title which is taken out of context.

 

[Mistake]

I understand the argument, but that isn't going to stop me from being happy when a nazi or white supremacist gets punched in the face. Letting it slide is how it all got momentum in the first place. I say put it down. If you go around spreading hate, that's what you get

 

[Hypron]

I'm not worried about the rise of facism in America.. What I'm worried about are these masked thugs crowding the streets and being violent.

Kinda funny to hear a couple of weeks after Charlottesville. And Trump's election.

 

[Bastables]

I've always found the Nuremberg Trials to be one of the most valorous acts of the 20th century. After a ton of war crimes and atrocities, by the Allies as well as the Axis, it would have been so easy to just hunt the Nazi bastards down and shoot on sight. No one would have complained.

But the Western powers stepped back and said - no, we're committed to a rule of law. All people, no matter their crimes, whether the winners or the losers, are subject to that law. They will be tried and sentenced appropriately.

Use violence when necessary, but when it's not necessary, stop using it.

You do realise they had to innovate laws to try them for war crimes and hang them right.

The very definition of war crimes was created after they had been successfully tried and hung in the Nuremberg principles.

This is all after 1943 when, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom and the United States published their "Declaration on German Atrocities in Occupied Europe", which gave a "full warning" that, when the Nazis were defeated, the Allies would "pursue them to the uttermost ends of the earth ... in order that justice may be done. ... The above declaration is without prejudice to the case of the major war criminals whose offences have no particular geographical location and who will be punished by a joint decision of the Government of the Allies."

The anti fascist powers literally broadcast they were going to charge for definition of crimes they had to innovate prior to victory and the trials

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials

 

[HarryHengst]

If you think the "antifa" definition is just "exaggerated bullshit from the right wing propaganda" you are really deluding yourself: this is a very narrow vision to have. I would advise you to learn what the antifa movements did and are still doing in Europe.
Extremism is just as bad with the left than it is with the right.

Smashed windows vs literal nazi deathcamps sure are ''just as bad''.

But hey, the truth is in the middle right?

 

[MotionBlue]

I've always found the Nuremberg Trials to be one of the most valorous acts of the 20th century. After a ton of war crimes and atrocities, by the Allies as well as the Axis, it would have been so easy to just hunt the Nazi bastards down and shoot on sight. No one would have complained.

But the Western powers stepped back and said - no, we're committed to a rule of law. All people, no matter their crimes, whether the winners or the losers, are subject to that law. They will be tried and sentenced appropriately.

Use violence when necessary, but when it's not necessary, stop using it.

Nuremberg was a political tool. Soviets and America used the threat of trial to grab Nazi scientists. Then used it to obfuscated Soviet crimes against civilians. Nuremberg was idealistic, but was abused to the victors own benefits.

 

[Chichikov]

Ha, they actually had something worth fighting for. That's the difference bud.

And I think you are touching on something here. America is a much different place than the rest of the world. We don't need ANTIFA, we already have the Constitution and the 2nd amendment.

I'm not worried about the rise of facism in America.. What I'm worried about are these masked thugs crowding the streets and being violent. They would better serve their communities by participating in Capitalism not rejecting it. One day they will clash with a right wing movement in the wrong state and people will die.

But thats the brakes for fighting an imaginary enemy right?

There is a very big difference between saying that violence is never justified and talking about whether Antifa's tactics in the US are justified, effective or if they're even needed.
But to do that, we need to have a basic real understanding of what Antifa is in America, it's not a gang of terrorists running around the street looking for white Trump supporters to beat up and Bank of America windows to break.

And they are fighting for something, stopping fascism is an important goal (they fight for a lot of other things too by the way).

 

[Osahi]

I've always found the Nuremberg Trials to be one of the most valorous acts of the 20th century. After a ton of war crimes and atrocities, by the Allies as well as the Axis, it would have been so easy to just hunt the Nazi bastards down and shoot on sight. No one would have complained.

But the Western powers stepped back and said - no, we're committed to a rule of law. All people, no matter their crimes, whether the winners or the losers, are subject to that law. They will be tried and sentenced appropriately.

Use violence when necessary, but when it's not necessary, stop using it.

Exactly. The allies at that moment showed they were above Nazism.

I do believe violence can be necessairy to achieve goals. A war situation is offcourse the best example, but also in non-democratic, opressive systems a revolution might be the only option. And offcourse there is self-defence.

But in a democracy? Fuck that. You have freedom of speech. Freedom to protest. You achieve nothing with violence, except hurting your own cause and offering your opponents munition. Look at how effective the Nazi scum and alt-right is in moving the conversation to antifa. They commited a deadly act of terror, but because of the violence of antifa that actually gets drowned out and they can play the victim card.

If you want to fight Nazi's, at least make sure you yourself are an example of good, democratic citizenship.

 

[Chasm Skulker]

You're not illustrating shit, you're talking in vague generalities.
Stop beating around the bush, you think that white supremacists are cartoon villains conjured by casual hand waving?

No? I'm saying it doesn't matter how objectively evil your opponents are, I'm not going to ignore your flaws and failings just because.

 

[HarryHengst]

Ha, they actually had something worth fighting for. That's the difference bud.

And I think you are touching on something here. America is a much different place than the rest of the world. We don't need ANTIFA, we already have the Constitution and the 2nd amendment.

I'm not worried about the rise of facism in America.. What I'm worried about are these masked thugs crowding the streets and being violent. They would better serve their communities by participating in Capitalism not rejecting it. One day they will clash with a right wing movement in the wrong state and people will die.

But thats the brakes for fighting an imaginary enemy right?

Back in those days lots of people thought womens voting rights were not considered something worth fighting for.

 

[whytemyke]

Yeah because the best way to REALLY fight fascism is with shitty punchlines on a night comedy show. Totally.

I think he was going more for peaceful protest as the solution, but if you want to throw in some knock knock jokes I guess that can't hurt.

 

[HarryHengst]

Exactly. The allies at that moment showed they were above Nazism.

I do believe violence can be necessairy to achieve goals. A war situation is offcourse the best example, but also in non-democratic, opressive systems a revolution might be the only option. And offcourse there is self-defence.

But in a democracy? Fuck that. You have freedom of speech. Freedom to protest. You achieve nothing with violence, except hurting your own cause and offering your opponents munition. Look at how effective the Nazi scum and alt-right is in moving the conversation to antifa. They commited a deadly act of terror, but because of the violence of antifa that actually gets drowned out and they can play the victim card.

If you want to fight Nazi's, at least make sure you yourself are an example of good, democratic citizenship.

Literal fascists walking around the streets: we want a white fascist state
antifa: fuck you
centrists: give them a chance to explain their reasoning.

 

[WrenchNinja]

they’ll just use every violent incident to discredit your entire movement, and they make it seem like—they make it seem like—in a world where white supremacists have a friend in the White House, the real problem is you guys.”

They do that even when people aren't violent. The fuck is he saying.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Exactly. The allies at that moment showed they were above Nazism.

I do believe violence can be necessairy to achieve goals. A war situation is offcourse the best example, but also in non-democratic, opressive systems a revolution might be the only option. And offcourse there is self-defence.

But in a democracy? Fuck that. You have freedom of speech. Freedom to protest. You achieve nothing with violence, except hurting your own cause and offering your opponents munition. Look at how effective the Nazi scum and alt-right is in moving the conversation to antifa. They commited a deadly act of terror, but because of the violence of antifa that actually gets drowned out and they can play the victim card.

If you want to fight Nazi's, at least make sure you yourself are an example of good, democratic citizenship.

So even though you saw them kill someone and lynch someone else you still dislike the left more?

Lol America's done for

 

[sasliquid]

Ha, they actually had something worth fighting for. That's the difference bud.

And I think you are touching on something here. America is a much different place than the rest of the world. We don't need ANTIFA, we already have the Constitution and the 2nd amendment.

I think assuming the constitution and any amendments are infalliable and will protect you is a bit presumptuous and, frankly put, privileged.

 

[Osahi]

So even though you saw them kill someone and lynch someone else you still dislike the left more?

Lol America's done for

Wait? WHAT? Seriously. Read my statement again and point out which parts make you come to this absolutely bonkers conclusion.

I hate those Nazi fucks with all my guts, but I do see how violence hurts the message of those fighting them.

I'm not American at all by the way, I'm an European, and a pretty left-wing one to boot (my political views and the parties I have voted for would be considered dangerously leftwing in the US, but here they are just to the left of the middle). I see it also happening all the time in my own country, where a rightwing government is in power now. When there is a rightfull protest against policies by the government, there is almost always some anarchist fringe group thinking it's a good idea to start a riot, and, like magic, the whole rightfull mesage of the protest is drowned out. Because you know what, the government and the right had a good excuse to dimiss all the quells of the peacefull protesters.

And you say the same now. Rightwingers are hiding behind the antifa violence to dimiss the message of the leftwing protest, and it freakin' works. That's why I loathe the guys using violence, even if technically, they are on my side.

 

[Preezy]

Preach Osahi o/

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Wait? WHAT? Seriously. Read my statement again and point out which parts make you come to this absolutely bonkers conclusion.

I hate those Nazi fucks with all my guts, but I do see how violence hurts the message of those fighting them.

I'm not American at all by the way, I'm an European, and a pretty left-wing one to boot (my political views and the parties I have voted for would be considered dangerously leftwing in the US, but here they are just to the left of the middle). I see it also happening all the time in my own country, where a rightwing government is in power now. When there is a rightfull protest against policies by the government, there is almost always some anarchist fringe group thinking it's a good idea to start a riot, and, like magic, the whole rightfull mesage of the protest is drowned out. Because you know what, the government and the right had a good excuse to dimiss all the quells of the peacefull protesters.

And you say the same now. Rightwingers are hiding behind the antifa violence to dimiss the message of the leftwing protest, and it freakin' works. That's why I loathe the guys using violence, even if technically, they are on my side.

Ah, so you have the luxury of passing judgement without actually being affected either way.

Must be nice

 

[Osahi]

Literal fascists walking around the streets: we want a white fascist state
antifa: fuck you
centrists: give them a chance to explain their reasoning.

No. That is NOT what I'm saying at all. Jeese, calm down and actually read what is there

I don't say you have to give those fascist fucks a chance to explain themselves (I think the freedom of speech laws are way to liberal in America, and I am actually glad spouting hate, nazism, etc is a crime in my country). What I do say is: if you use violence to make your point, you hurt your argument. People will focus on the violence, not on what you have to say. You have a lot of ways to protest literal Nazi's in the street, but using violence against them only gives them arguments against you, and hurts your cause.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

That is both a stupid and incredibly damaging thing to say. Equating anti fascists to terrorists... name one person ever killed or one building ever blown up by antifa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground

I wonder what he makes of Do the Right Thing.

I wonder what YOU think of Do the Right Thing. He screamed "hate" when he threw that garbage can. What do you think the point of that was?

There are numerous recent cases of antifa going after journalists at these protests. Are journalists part of the fascists?

I've seen this, too.

 

[Osahi]

Ah, so you have the luxury of passing judgement without actually being affected either way.

Must be nice

Care to explain what you mean by that? Are you actually interested in having a conversation, or are you just going to throw around accusations and insults, and putting words in my mouth I would never actually say?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Care to explain what you mean by that? Are you actually interested in having a conversation, or are you just going to throw around accusations and insults, and putting words in my mouth I would never actually say?

You said you're European, so the rise of white supremacy based fascism in America does not affect you, at least not directly. That makes it easier for you to decry any methods used to fight it that don't fit your philosophy, right?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

In context, he's right. The right wing media tries to use violent leftists as a bludgeon to say "there's no need to listen to these people, they're just anarchists". The label is not one he's throwing out there, he's projecting it from Fox, Breitbart, etc

 

[MotionBlue]

You said you're European, so the rise of white supremacy based fascism in America does not affect you, at least not directly. That makes it easier for you to decry any methods used to fight it that don't fit your philosophy, right?

You can't be serious. You do realize Europe has had to deal with white supremacy and fascism longer than America has existed as fucking country, right?

Literal fascists walking around the streets: we want a white fascist state
antifa: fuck you
centrists: give them a chance to explain their reasoning.

Literal strawman only hurt your own arguments.

 

[Spuck-uk]

The CIvil Rights and the women's suffrage movements used way more violence than Antifa ever did.
You think they're not one inch better than Nazis or ISIS?

You're not illustrating shit, you're talking in vague generalities.
Stop beating around the bush, you think that white supremacists are cartoon villains conjured by casual hand waving?

^Thank you.

'Violence is never the answer' is something only people basically okay with the status quo say, 'radical centrism', your Democrat party, etc, etc..

 

[Xando]

You said you're European, so the rise of white supremacy based fascism in America does not affect you, at least not directly. That makes it easier for you to decry any methods used to fight it that don't fit your philosophy, right?

Lol what

 

[Spuck-uk]

If you don’t like what they say promote laws against it instead of going down on their level and use violence.

When the people who make the laws are okay with Nazi marches and the like, that's a hard sell.

 

[Nipo]

I've always found the Nuremberg Trials to be one of the most valorous acts of the 20th century. After a ton of war crimes and atrocities, by the Allies as well as the Axis, it would have been so easy to just hunt the Nazi bastards down and shoot on sight. No one would have complained.

But the Western powers stepped back and said - no, we're committed to a rule of law. All people, no matter their crimes, whether the winners or the losers, are subject to that law. They will be tried and sentenced appropriately.

Use violence when necessary, but when it's not necessary, stop using it.

Violence is an appropriate response when the rule of law no longer protects the citizens it governs and political institutions are so intrenched that non-violent means are unable to affect change.

Are we at that point in the US? Anti-fa thinks so and others disagree.

The reason you get people handwaving the "both sides are bad" is because both anti-fa and white supremacist are using violence to change the rule of law. The difference is the nazis are using it to try and make it more legal to discriminate against minorities and anti-fa is using violence to stop that and force more inclusion.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

You can't be serious. You do realize Europe has had to deal with white supremacy and fascism longer than America has existed as fucking country, right?



Literal strawman only hurt your own arguments.

Does the current rise of white supremacy based fascism in America affect Europeans directly right now?

 

[SomTervo]

You said you're European, so the rise of white supremacy based fascism in America does not affect you, at least not directly. That makes it easier for you to decry any methods used to fight it that don't fit your philosophy, right?

That's completely insane. It's on the rise across Europe too and has been around far longer. A number of my Eastern European friends left those countries because the racism is absolutely rampant in some of them, way worse than America (partly because the "white" population is an even bigger proportion).

 

[Carcetti]

In the real world, on the planet we live on, violence has several times been the only thing that has stopped literal genocides. Judging people like suffragettes for their tactics from a position of safety and privilege is ridiculous, and frankly, reprehensible.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Ha, they actually had something worth fighting for. That's the difference bud.

And I think you are touching on something here. America is a much different place than the rest of the world. We don't need ANTIFA, we already have the Constitution and the 2nd amendment.

I'm not worried about the rise of facism in America.. What I'm worried about are these masked thugs crowding the streets and being violent. They would better serve their communities by participating in Capitalism not rejecting it. One day they will clash with a right wing movement in the wrong state and people will die.

But thats the brakes for fighting an imaginary enemy right?

Google, find me the hottest take possible..no, wait, here it is.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

That's completely insane. It's on the rise across Europe too and has been around far longer. A number of my Eastern European friends left those countries because the racism is absolutely rampant in some of them, way worse than America (partly because the "white" population is an even bigger proportion).

I'm specifically talking about our flavor of hatred and the differences in American thought and law connected to it, and how it affects Americans. I'm not saying there's no white supremacy in Europe, that would be foolish.

 

[SomTervo]

Google, find me the hottest take possible..no, wait, here it is.

It's the land of the free! Therefore, no activism is required!

I'm specifically talking about our flavor of hatred and the differences in American thought and law connected to it, and how it affects Americans. I'm not saying there's no white supremacy in Europe, that would be foolish.

Yeah i guess you said "WS fascism in America".

 

[Osahi]

You said you're European, so the rise of white supremacy based fascism in America does not affect you, at least not directly. That makes it easier for you to decry any methods used to fight it that don't fit your philosophy, right?

Sure, it doesn't affect me as much as you. That doesn't mean I can't critize the use of violence. Especially not if in my own country we have issues too that do affect me, and I see how violent left-wing protest actually hurts the cause. And maybe, looking at it from a distance, I can see how a rightfull message gets hurt by violent action?

I mean, you guys are actually defending violence and vandalism in a democratic society. Think about that. It doesn't matter if the other side is literal Nazi's. By using violence against them you actually doing them favours.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

I've liked Trevor for a while. Good "everyman".

 

[Nipo]

You can't be serious. You do realize Europe has had to deal with white supremacy and fascism longer than America has existed as fucking country, right?
.

In the history of combating extremists and fascists has appeasement and tolerance ever made the situation better? I don't know enough about European history to definitively say it has never helped but ic an't think of a good example of it working.

 

[Jyester]

This thread appears to have veered in a completely different direction thanks to the original misquote.

Is Trevor not just saying that Antifa needs leadership and direction? Also, can somebody explain to me why Antifa torched a car and broke windows? I see people downplaying these incidents, but unless that coffee house was run by some KKK padawan, such actions seem completely inappropriate. Surely this doesn't help their cause, which is what Trevor pointed out.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Does the current rise of white supremacy based fascism in America affect Europeans directly right now?

As a European, yes, because it normalises it as a political position and empowers people with similar ideologies to do the same in our countries.