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Daily Show host Trevor Noah says people see Antifa as "Vegan Isis"
- Thread starter kitsunelaine
- Start date
It's sad to see that people are ignorant enough to pull the both sides shit with literal nazis and the people who want to stamp out racism. Anyone with basic knowledge of how the nazis came to power knows that giving them leeway to do their grandstanding totally worked out fine and nothing bad ever happened by letting them do what they wanted. You still think Anti Fascists are bad, then I hope you had fun getting duped by alt right smear campaigns.
This is my takeaway but people will continue to handwave away highly publicized outliers of a decentralized movement like it won't hurt the cause.
HarryHengst
Member
Its amazing how you proved the point that talking to racists isnt working while trying to prove the opposite. Your dad has seen your friends and has your mom talking to him every day and STILL he has developed racist views.
And yet here you are going ''well if we just talk to racists more they will surely stop being racists!".
Arkage
Banned
The point of Trevor Noah's monologue is how general citizens perceive Antifa - and he's right. It doesn't matter if you have a nuanced pro-vandalism pro-violence philosophical argument on power structures and how to disrupt them. What matters is when someone breaks stuff, enjoys breaking the stuff, and is happily caught on youtube/TV doing so in the name of their cause. BLM suffered this same fate when some of the protests turned to looting and destruction, losing quite a bit of credibility in mainstream America's eyes.
And of course this isn't a fair perception. There are many in BLM and antifa who don't approve of violence or vandalism. Which is why these groups need a strong organizational structure, a spokesperson for the group to disavow the few who cause these problems. At least, if they think it's in their interest to do so (which I think it is for public perception). These movements created mostly through twitter and social media are truly a poor man's version of real organizational movements that get shit done. Another question: we can be sure that all of the altright voted for Trump, but can we be sure all of the antifa/BLM voted for Hillary? I doubt it. The left needs more solidarity and less infighting, but considering the drama already happening with the DNC via the abortion debate, and the socialism vs capitalism war, it only looks like even greater division will be found in the future.
The bottom line is that this is a democracy, and change happens through talking and convincing others to join a cause, to fund educational programs, to vote in people that serve your needs. America's power structure don't care about how many followers you have on twitter, they care about how many voters you bring to the voting booth.
And of course this isn't a fair perception. There are many in BLM and antifa who don't approve of violence or vandalism. Which is why these groups need a strong organizational structure, a spokesperson for the group to disavow the few who cause these problems. At least, if they think it's in their interest to do so (which I think it is for public perception). These movements created mostly through twitter and social media are truly a poor man's version of real organizational movements that get shit done. Another question: we can be sure that all of the altright voted for Trump, but can we be sure all of the antifa/BLM voted for Hillary? I doubt it. The left needs more solidarity and less infighting, but considering the drama already happening with the DNC via the abortion debate, and the socialism vs capitalism war, it only looks like even greater division will be found in the future.
The bottom line is that this is a democracy, and change happens through talking and convincing others to join a cause, to fund educational programs, to vote in people that serve your needs. America's power structure don't care about how many followers you have on twitter, they care about how many voters you bring to the voting booth.
DrROBschiz
Member
Antifa's stance is that fascism must be fought, quite literally
The issue is that, as we have seen, they are are easy to pick apart and decentralised
I sympathize with those that have the courage to put their neck on the line and go to actual war with violent racists and fascists though
But they will continue to be villified by those who continually dismiss the issue.
I think Antifa believes that we are on the cusp of chaos and revolution ( I mean alt righters have been soft threatening revolution and insurrection for years by building fake militias and hoarding guns) where we would have no choice but to be caught up in a fight
But either way yeah... Agreed. Without organization, leadership and accountability they will likely get nowhere fast until dystopia sets in for the majority of Americans. And by then it might even be too late
As bad as things are I still dont think we are there
The issue is that, as we have seen, they are are easy to pick apart and decentralised
I sympathize with those that have the courage to put their neck on the line and go to actual war with violent racists and fascists though
But they will continue to be villified by those who continually dismiss the issue.
I think Antifa believes that we are on the cusp of chaos and revolution ( I mean alt righters have been soft threatening revolution and insurrection for years by building fake militias and hoarding guns) where we would have no choice but to be caught up in a fight
But either way yeah... Agreed. Without organization, leadership and accountability they will likely get nowhere fast until dystopia sets in for the majority of Americans. And by then it might even be too late
As bad as things are I still dont think we are there
excelsiorlef
Member
Yep.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
If you use the both sides argument you are a nazi sympathizer
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Excellent post.
benicillin
Banned
Moderates are the worst. This take is so soft an antifa member could hit me over the head with it and I'd be fine.
The founders of this democracy admit the violence is sometimes necessary to ensure the government continues to serve the people.
"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. .... It is a medecine necessary for the sound health of government." Jefferson to Madison 1787.
The people who view Antifa the same as neo-nazis have largely been indifferent to systemic racism in the united states and are unlikely to lift a finger to stop white supremacists if it inconveniences them in any way. These people are not allies and should not be accommodated. They are at best bystanders and at worst complicit in the system
Ville Pukema
Member
Radical masked political group, unidentifiable because they don't want to be held accountable for any action they take, no matter what you do in group. In fact they do about everything for it not to be possible.
Sounds terrific idea, why anyone reasonable would be against this?
It's just small harmless whoopsie doopsie and no harm done, when they decide someone is nazi for shit and giggles. Wearing poloshirt? You're nazi and will get physically fucked up. Got camera? You're nazi and will get physically fucked up. Someone just decided to yell nazi at you? You're nazi and will get physically fucked up. Add random property damage and you're golden, clearly everyone should love violent antifa groups.
Bonus good guy points for Antifa groups. Not as bad as nazies and white supremacy groups.
Sounds terrific idea, why anyone reasonable would be against this?
It's just small harmless whoopsie doopsie and no harm done, when they decide someone is nazi for shit and giggles. Wearing poloshirt? You're nazi and will get physically fucked up. Got camera? You're nazi and will get physically fucked up. Someone just decided to yell nazi at you? You're nazi and will get physically fucked up. Add random property damage and you're golden, clearly everyone should love violent antifa groups.
Bonus good guy points for Antifa groups. Not as bad as nazies and white supremacy groups.
gutter_trash
Banned
the European conterpart is anti-establishment and anarachist.
it's not Left, it's anarchist
the Quebec conterpart is anti-government, anti-establishment and anarchist.
it is difficult for a regular left wing person to join in with them when they are off the cliff too anti everything
it's not Left, it's anarchist
the Quebec conterpart is anti-government, anti-establishment and anarchist.
it is difficult for a regular left wing person to join in with them when they are off the cliff too anti everything
makingmusic476
Member
"The allied powers are just as bad. They're dropping bombs too!"
Add in "snowflake" or "cuck" and we've gone full alt-right Twitter here.
CrocMother
Banned
The first replies in this thread are baffling until you realize OP didn't have the full quote.
DrROBschiz
Member
Yep and lets not forget right wingers adopt the same philosophy when it suits them
I see plenty of people talk about taking up arms and promoting revolutionary violence
Our largest problem is this continues apathy to major issues and the promoting of status quo and dismissal of legitimate grievances
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I watched the clip and meh, I think its a confused bit and an inaccurate one but left Twitter is freaking out in a way that isn't warranted. Noah's concern is clearly about media and cultural perception, and while his core argument (it just gives the nazis ammo) is wrong, because they just do that anyway and we've seen how its possible to scare them back into their holes, it is at best a lukewarm take.
As right wingers should if they feel the democratic process no longer represents them. Sometimes violence is necessary for a nation to find its soul and to decide what it really stands for.
Will the masses stand by and lets neo-nazis have violent protests? I think boston and everywhere else after charlottesville has shown us No. they won't. The next question is will a jury convict someone for punching a nazi. I look forward to that trial and learning the answer.
gutter_trash
Banned
Trevor is coming from a world wide point of view.
the Neo-Nazis who descended on Charlotsville are the scum of the Earth, granted.
Antifa has existed for a long time in Europe and are much more than just being an anttifacisms group: EVERYBODY is A FASCIST according to them.
If one person is Center-Left or had divergent political views; ANTIFA brands them as a FASCIST on the same league as the ALT-RIGHT.
they conudct themselves in "I'm wrong and your wrong about everything" without nuance.
the Neo-Nazis who descended on Charlotsville are the scum of the Earth, granted.
Antifa has existed for a long time in Europe and are much more than just being an anttifacisms group: EVERYBODY is A FASCIST according to them.
If one person is Center-Left or had divergent political views; ANTIFA brands them as a FASCIST on the same league as the ALT-RIGHT.
they conudct themselves in "I'm wrong and your wrong about everything" without nuance.
Yeah, whenever I hear the term Antifa I think of radical-left anti-capitalists.
Colin Kaepernick proves there is no right way to protest white supremacy in America.
In most part, this isn't even about that. It's about the left's tendency to allow the right to dictate the narrative, time and again, because of an overwhelming desire to seem balanced and fair to all perspectives rather than suspicious of intent. If someone's primary concern is whether or not a member of a protesting group called Antifa punched someone at a recent event and not, say, the group of several men who surrounded a black men and beat him with sticks in Charlottesville, I think perhaps that person might be exhibiting certain biases.
Guaranteed the "mainstream public" weren't happy at the Stonewall riots when a bunch of those awful homosexuals ran out of a bar (can you believe these people) to riot in the streets after smashing up property. It's still the only reason I have equal rights as an American. "You only gave us rights because we gave you riots."
The right's primary strategy for years, rather than changing or moderating their position, has been reframing the discussion of the position on the left. That's why they are pro life, even when they want a mother to die in childbirth. That's why they call being gay a sexual preference. A large part of how they have shifted the country ever further right is by controlling the dialogue so thoroughly that it is impossible to take an even moderate progressive stance without being viewed as extremist. As soon as fake news hit the political discourse by actually literally being about conservative websites that were making up stories that never happened, it was co-opted to mean the mainstream press at large. Now no one on the left really even uses the phrase unironically to refer to the actual news that was fake leading into the election anymore. We've almost entirely stopped talking about it, because the right now owns that conversation.
Reframing the discussion to not be about the white supremacists and Nazis, but whether or not the left might be just as bad, is the same tactic that's worked for them for decades. At this point, what Antifa is in America is largely being defined by the right and their response to it, no matter the actual actions.
In most part, this isn't even about that. It's about the left's tendency to allow the right to dictate the narrative, time and again, because of an overwhelming desire to seem balanced and fair to all perspectives rather than suspicious of intent. If someone's primary concern is whether or not a member of a protesting group called Antifa punched someone at a recent event and not, say, the group of several men who surrounded a black men and beat him with sticks in Charlottesville, I think perhaps that person might be exhibiting certain biases.
Guaranteed the "mainstream public" weren't happy at the Stonewall riots when a bunch of those awful homosexuals ran out of a bar (can you believe these people) to riot in the streets after smashing up property. It's still the only reason I have equal rights as an American. "You only gave us rights because we gave you riots."
The right's primary strategy for years, rather than changing or moderating their position, has been reframing the discussion of the position on the left. That's why they are pro life, even when they want a mother to die in childbirth. That's why they call being gay a sexual preference. A large part of how they have shifted the country ever further right is by controlling the dialogue so thoroughly that it is impossible to take an even moderate progressive stance without being viewed as extremist. As soon as fake news hit the political discourse by actually literally being about conservative websites that were making up stories that never happened, it was co-opted to mean the mainstream press at large. Now no one on the left really even uses the phrase unironically to refer to the actual news that was fake leading into the election anymore. We've almost entirely stopped talking about it, because the right now owns that conversation.
Reframing the discussion to not be about the white supremacists and Nazis, but whether or not the left might be just as bad, is the same tactic that's worked for them for decades. At this point, what Antifa is in America is largely being defined by the right and their response to it, no matter the actual actions.
Well that's not good.
Its a fact, though? There are bad apples in every group and they actually can fuck shit up for everyone, its not just some theory thats been argued away on NeoGAF and should be over with. Just because antifa is standing up for something good doesn't mean all their members are always therefore always right. Everything is politics and optics. Thats why governments put scabbers in protests to start violence and take away credibility, its why republicans paid people to dress up and smash shit at trumps inauguration, its why neo nazis are currently trying to rile people up at "free speech" rallies and pretending to be maced, its why ISIS plays the victim to western society, its why the entire republican strategy is playing the victim with reverse-everything cards, because it plays in to their hands politically. If you are disagreeing with this you are essentially arguing with one of the principles of Mahatma Ghandi's "Satyagraha". Maintaining politically perceived moral high ground is so important, that its actually kind of a dumbass idea to think its just some stupid idea.
Being anti-fascist is okay, punching nazis is cool. Vandalizing peoples stuff and being indiscriminately anarchist is not. Its not that hard to understand. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised to find that the people smashing shit are actually paid by republicans.
Ville Pukema
Member
So alt-right is against violence? For all men and woman to be treated equally under law, no matter the colour of skin or status in society. Helping oppressed minorities and groups. For income equality in society. Pro immigration and immigrants.
Alt-right sure has changed this week.
He wasn't wrong. He wasn't Anti-Antifa, just some of the actions, and if they do become semi-violent, but at the same time semi-peaceful, I get the 'vegan-isis' thing, its not a direct comparison, its commentary on how people think.
Most people don't even know exactly what ISIS is, we just get stories about them KNOCKING DOWN STATUES...the major difference is Antifa is 'knocking down' ones that need to be knocked down.
And the whole 'Antifa' name feels so forced, no one uttered it until AFTER Charlottsville, its like the media trying to build up some sort of radical sounding name for people who are simply not racist arseholes.
Most people don't even know exactly what ISIS is, we just get stories about them KNOCKING DOWN STATUES...the major difference is Antifa is 'knocking down' ones that need to be knocked down.
And the whole 'Antifa' name feels so forced, no one uttered it until AFTER Charlottsville, its like the media trying to build up some sort of radical sounding name for people who are simply not racist arseholes.
suggesting that leftists should make political decisions based on how they'll be depicted on fox news is about as dumb as it gets
gutter_trash
Banned
counter-protesting against fascism is legitamate,
counter-protesting against neo-nazis is legitamate..
but it all fals apart when violence and vandalism is used with Black Bloc tactics.
I'm from Montreal and we see these ANTIFA guys yearly.
On one yearly anti-police brutality protest; ANTIFA descended in the downtown core where families brought their kids to the Ice Capades. Their vehicles were smashed just because cars = capitalism and none-sense like that.
all legitamcy falls apart when they smash windows and engage in violence
counter-protesting against neo-nazis is legitamate..
but it all fals apart when violence and vandalism is used with Black Bloc tactics.
I'm from Montreal and we see these ANTIFA guys yearly.
On one yearly anti-police brutality protest; ANTIFA descended in the downtown core where families brought their kids to the Ice Capades. Their vehicles were smashed just because cars = capitalism and none-sense like that.
all legitamcy falls apart when they smash windows and engage in violence
Because it hasn't been posted in this thread yet
Tolerance of bigots is not the answer.
You should care about more than just what the right-wing thinks.
RedSparrows
Member
I would love people to be a teensy bit more nuanced in their historical analogies. You aren't at Stalingrad, remember.
Also, super way to trivialize a historiographocal debate about moral action in the face of evil. Irony mucn.
if you see what's going on in this country and your big issue is with some broken starbucks windows you are part of the problem
Because it hasn't been posted in this thread yet
Tolerance of bigots is not the answer.
He's talking about smashing windows.
Can we only focus on one thing at a time now? Either I want to punch nazis AND vandalize property or I am pro-Nazi?
Tye The Czar
Member
That was during war, though. We're not at that point in time, yet.
Because it hasn't been posted in this thread yet
Tolerance of bigots is not the answer.
That comic is completely right, but it doesn't mean it's okay to use violence against them.
It takes some mental gymnastics to equal the oposition of violence against a group to tolerance for that group.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its also worth considering the utility of broken windows though. They might not be the worst thing but is property damage also doing anything useful?
But the endgame of white supremacists is genocide of non-whites.... These groups pose an existential threat to PoC and I can't fault people for using violence to stop it.
Your little sarcastic "both sides" diatribe didn't mention any of the bolded.
Stupei explained my point far better than I could. Your arms are locked with the right when you're shouting about all that "but what about antifa" nonsense. It's textbook whataboutism. It's right out of the American conservative/Russian propaganda playbook. It's amazing (and scary) to me that, after all that's happened in the past year, there are liberals parroting these deflections and helping to mud up the narrative.
the overwhelming majority of antifa violence i have seen since the election is self-defense versus nazis. i have not seen any property destruction that's been anything other than incidental.
of course those two things are being conflated, which always happens. minor property damage during the ferguson and baltimore protests were attributed to BLM too. same thing happened in the 60s and 70s. you can either ignore it or stop having protests.
historically it's to be expected. centrists have more in common with the right than they do with the left and will side with fascists before leftists.
So me saying there's no utility in destroying store property is siding with fascists? You really wanna get that black and white?
Wouldn't deflecting the conversation about a few bad antifa smashing windows and whether conducive to our cause to "what about the Nazis" be whataboutism?
This isn't a cable news network, we're having a discussion. It doesn't always only have to be about one thing at the risk of inadvertently brainwashing other people into thinking the other thing doesnt matter. Obviously Nazis are the fucking worst. What does that have to do with these guys smashing windows and associating it with the counter-fascist movement? How is it not 100% valid to discuss this matter, especially as it pertains to our current political cause and whether or not it might be damaging it?
Not everything is automatically "both sides" for including two sides in a comparison. Its becoming impossible to compare two things without being accused of essentially saying that nazis are not that bad. is it completely wrong to even discuss or critique our own politics because thats considered implying that our side is the same as theirs ? thats ridiculous
shawnbuddy
Member
Two people can be working toward the same goal and have different opinions about the tactics that will accomplish that goal. If one thinks tactics are incorrect or counterproductive, it's their responsibility to say it. Trying to paint people who don't agree with the most extreme methods in the wide world of anti-Fascist groups as apologists or enablers for the fascists is kneejerk and childish.
benicillin
Banned
NeoGAF (and most of America) hasn't moved passed tired old civil rights era arguments.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Eye for an eye, the world goes blind.
He's got a valid point.
Don't see how people are deducing that he implied anti fascists are as bad as the fascists.
Saying violence makes you look bad is not a "both sides" argument.
If you're a vandal and a disturber of peace, then you're a problem.
Maybe not as bad a problem, but you're not helping.
On the contrary.
He's got a valid point.
Don't see how people are deducing that he implied anti fascists are as bad as the fascists.
Saying violence makes you look bad is not a "both sides" argument.
If you're a vandal and a disturber of peace, then you're a problem.
Maybe not as bad a problem, but you're not helping.
On the contrary.
shawnbuddy
Member
None for what most of us would think of as anti-fascism, it just causes animosity in the communities where it happens. But most of the black bloc are anti-capitalist, too, and they see utility in smashing symbols of capitalism. The issue gets really muddy and the message isn't clear.
pushing any kind of "both sides" narrative sure is. that should be black and white to anyone with a brain.
property destruction has been incidental and marginal and certainly hasn't been the goal of any major group at these events. something like that will always end up happening, if you want absolutely none of it then you want no protests and no confrontation with the nazis.
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