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[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Sure, it doesn't affect me as much as you. That doesn't mean I can't critize the use of violence. Especially not if in my own country we have issues too that do affect me, and I see how violent left-wing protest actually hurts the cause. And maybe, looking at it from a distance, I can see how a rightfull message gets hurt by violent action?

I mean, you guys are actually defending violence and vandalism in a democratic society. Think about that. It doesn't matter if the other side is literal Nazi's. By using violence against them you actually doing them favours.

I haven't actually advocated for violence or vandalism in here but I'll put that aside for now.

Since the actual government in America is not only complicit but promoting hate and strife, what would you suggest in the way of effective yet completely safe protest?

 

[Spuck-uk]

Sure, it doesn't affect me as much as you. That doesn't mean I can't critize the use of violence. Especially not if in my own country we have issues too that do affect me, and I see how violent left-wing protest actually hurts the cause. And maybe, looking at it from a distance, I can see how a rightfull message gets hurt by violent action?

I mean, you guys are actually defending violence and vandalism in a democratic society. Think about that. It doesn't matter if the other side is literal Nazi's. By using violence against them you actually doing them favours.

Do you also disagree with Germany banning Swastikas, Sieg Heiling and the like? Or do you just think Nazis should be able to march down the street happily shouting 'White Power' and 'Jews will not control us', 'Blood and Soil' and all the rest.

You've just not been exposed to it until recently, they've been much more open for much longer in Europe, and we've seen where it leads, and aren't having it.

 

[Xando]

When the people who make the laws are okay with Nazi marches and the like, that's a hard sell.

So get people in power who can. That’s how democracy works.

 

[HarryHengst]

Literal strawman only hurt your own arguments.

Its what's happening in this thread right now.

"Go and debate with nazi's!'
"Free speech is protected so we cant do anything about nazi's!"

But hey, sure, go ahead, see what happens when you dont stomp nazi's the second they turn up. You already got a president who doesnt dare denounce them because he knows they are his most loyal voter base. You got the former leader of the KKK being happy about Trump, claiming he is strengthening their message. Surely if you just go on 4chan or /r/the_donald and debate them they will start thinking that jews arent out to replace them.

 

[kitsunelaine]

So get people in power who can. That’s how democracy works.

The people making these laws are gerrymandering districts to pick voters that they know will support them so they can stay in power.

Stop pretending it's plain and simple.

 

[MotionBlue]

In the history of combating extremists and fascists has appeasement and tolerance ever made the situation better? I don't know enough about European history to definitively say it has never helped but ic an't think of a good example of it working.

Nobody has said anything about appeasement. Trevor, and everyone arguing against Antifa are clearly in favor of peaceful protest and engagement. Also, yes. Peaceful protest has.

 

[kitsunelaine]

Nobody has said anything about appeasement. Trevor, and everyone arguing against Antifa are clearly in favor of peaceful protest and engagement. Also, yes. Peaceful protest has.

And nothing will be good enough for the people who are painting antifa as "Vegan ISIS", they will continue to do that no matter what antifa does, as they have shown to do with every other leftist movement before it.

What Trevor and his ilk are doing is victim blaming. "It's your fault you have this image". It's the same thing people try to say about how Hillary was portrayed in the primaries, that she deserved her reputation. But it was built up with right-wing smoke and mirrors.

Fighting victims of the symptoms instead of the problem itself is fucked in so many ways it's hard to count.

 

[Spuck-uk]

So get people in power who can. That’s how democracy works.

Would Hillary Clinton have banned Nazi marches? Nope. Your political system is fucked (So's ours in the UK, condolences.)

 

[Xando]

The people making these laws are gerrymandering districts to pick voters that they know will support them so they can stay in power.

Stop pretending it's plain and simple.

It’s up to society to keep up basic principles like fair voting. American society failed for years to keep politicians to these basic standards

Would Hillary Clinton have banned Nazi marches? Nope. Your political system is fucked (So's ours in the UK, condolences.)

So hillary was fine with nazi marches? If so vote for someone who isn’t fine with them and will ban them or accept that they’ll happen and vote for some who doesn’t want to ban them.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Nobody has said anything about appeasement. Trevor, and everyone arguing against Antifa are clearly in favor of peaceful protest and engagement. Also, yes. Peaceful protest has.

Give us an example then? Because outside of Ghandi...

Hell, the USA exists because of a violent uprising. Maybe you should have just talked nicely to the British instead about representation, I'm sure that would have worked just as well.

 

[HarryHengst]

It’s up to society to keep up basic principles like fair voting. American society failed for years to keep politicians to these basic standards

Do you know how fair voting was implemented in France? Its not because they asked nicely.

 

[Spoo]

Would Hillary Clinton have banned Nazi marches? Nope. Your political system is fucked (So's ours in the UK, condolences.)

No, nor could (or should) she, as the first amendment here is a pretty important one, *but* she would have denounced and publicly shamed them, I'd imagine, and that strength of a leader -- or the lack of it -- is probably a big part of why we see demonstrations rising to the level they are.

 

[JordanN]

Nazis shouldn't even exist. They lost the only major war they ever fought but they're still coming back for more.

And that's what scares me the most. You can bet the second time a white nationalist comes to power, they're not going to relinquish it in the slightest. It would be a bloodlust to kill everyone who ever opposed them like we saw with ww2.

Any perceived danger of antifa is no where near the losers of ww2 trying to claw their way back and set humanity farther backwards with a complete genocide.

 

[kitsunelaine]

It's up to society to keep up basic principles like fair voting. American society failed for years to keep politicians to these basic standards

And yet you're advocating against opposing a system you yourself admit is failing. Don't you see the folly here?

 

[Nipo]

Nobody has said anything about appeasement. Trevor, and everyone arguing against Antifa are clearly in favor of peaceful protest and engagement. Also, yes. Peaceful protest has.

So Nazis should be allowed to peacefully march and try and infiltrate government? Fuck that. Germany let it happen in the 30s and it was a mistake. Violence is the best answer against those who advocate mass genocide.

 

[Xando]

And yet you're advocating against opposing a system you yourself admit is failing. Don't you see the folly here?

You don’t need to use violence to change the system. Look at east germany.

Do you know how fair voting was implemented in France? Its not because they asked nicely.

Huh i didn’t know the french revolution was because the king changed voting districts and not because his people were starving.

 

[HarryHengst]

So Nazis should be allowed to peacefully march and try and infiltrate government? Fuck that. Germany let it happen in the 30s and it was a mistake. Violence is the best answer against those who advocate mass genocide.

Well clearly if the nazi's get voted in, that is just democracy at work and should be allowed. If you dont like it you should vote in other people.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Great segment. Trevor Noah has really warmed up to hosting the show.

 

[kitsunelaine]

You don't need to use violence to change the system. Look at east germany.

It's easy to sit back and say "both sides" all damn day, but it's a lot harder for you to come up with a solution instead. I suggest working towards it.

 

[Osahi]

I haven't actually advocated for violence or vandalism in here but I'll put that aside for now.

Since the actual government in America is not only complicit but promoting hate and strife, what would you suggest in the way of effective yet completely safe protest?

I'm sorry, but the way you went after me because I said I didn't believe in violence, got me under the impression you were okay with it. If I'm wrong, I take that back.

People have been peacefully protesting the government for a while. And it might not seem immidiatly effective, in the long run it is. But every act of violence is a step back.

And you have democratic tools. This government is 90% a lame duck that can't pass laws because of checks and balances. People calling their senators, protesting, showing they won't put op with this shit. True, the 10% that gets passed is very harmfull, but even in a winning war you can lose a battle.

And your best weapon is your vote. You have midterms next year allready. Go out and vote. Convince people of your cause (you won't convince them by punching them or vandalizing cars and businesses) and your candidate. By 2018 the Trump admin could be completely paralysed.

Do you also disagree with Germany banning Swastikas, Sieg Heiling and the like? Or do you just think Nazis should be able to march down the street happily shouting 'White Power' and 'Jews will not control us', 'Blood and Soil' and all the rest.

You've just not been exposed to it until recently, they've been much more open for much longer in Europe, and we've seen where it leads, and aren't having it.

I don't. I said before in this topic I'm glad my country has stricter hatespeech laws. The guys in charlottesville should never had the chance to go out with their tiki torches. (But, as the law in the US is a lot more protetcing of freedom of speech, even if it's hatespeech, technically they had all the right to do so. So from a legal standpoint I must reluctantly say they should've been allowed. But my opinion says there should be a law banning hatespeech like that)

And what does exposure have to do with it? So if I would've encountered a Nazi in the street shouting Blood and Soil, I would be okay now with burning cars, smashing windows and punching people in the face? That is ridiculous. It might even strenthen my case. Emotions aren't always the best guides, and using violence is the ultimate expression of anger.

And seriously. Only 10 years ago we had an extremist right party gaining 25% of the vote here. Now we have a similar party in power who at times is a pretty similar, but is a 'cleaned up' version of it. (Lot's of people from the extreme right have run over to the new one too when they got more popular) We have people in office of that party who spout thinly veiled racism on Twitter. Don't say I don't know what it is to see stuff like this on the rise, albeit less blatently. And you know what I do see when I engage with these people? Arguments get drowned out and dismissed once they are able to place you in the 'violent extremist' corner. Antifa is the lefts biggest ennemy in that regard.

 

[Nipo]

Well clearly if the nazi's get voted in, that is just democracy at work and should be allowed. If you dont like it you should vote in other people.

So do you see every civil war/revolution in a democratic state as unjust?

How do you determine if the democratic institutions are an accurate representation of the will of the or have been unfairly manipulated by those in power?

edit: just noticed your icon. Im' dumb.

 

[HarryHengst]

You don’t need to use violence to change the system. Look at east germany.


Huh i didn’t know the french revolution was because the king changed voting districts and not because his people were starving.

I guess the French could have asked nicely if the king would step down, yes. Im sure that would have worked.

Just like your idea to just vote in ''better people'' will work, because the system surely isnt designed in such a way to prevent that from happening.

 

[necrosis]

stupid, but i guess that's to be expected of a bougie

 

[Osahi]

Give us an example then? Because outside of Ghandi...

Hell, the USA exists because of a violent uprising. Maybe you should have just talked nicely to the British instead about representation, I'm sure that would have worked just as well.

The violence of the American revolution wasn't actually commited by people who have democratic tools in a democratic system, was it?

Isn't that what democracy is about? To have a way to not use violence for your cause?

 

[cackhyena]

He's right.

 

[Carcetti]

If we're talking strictly USA, we should probably remember that USA is basically a flawed democracy by democracy index scores. When the system veers into plutocracy/oligarchy, it's not that simple anymore.

 

[BriGuy]

Fox News is going to drum up fear and paranoia in their audience regardless of what leftist organizations do or don't do, so I don't think anyone should place too much stock in whether or not they approve of antifa's methods. That said, destruction for destruction's sake should try to be avoided.

 

[Xando]

It's easy to sit back and say "both sides" all damn day, but it's a lot harder for you to come up with a solution instead. I suggest working towards it.

I literally gave you an example for peaceful change in the post you quoted.

How about you guys actually start to seek a solution instead of complaining all day?

If everything is so bad why don’t you start a general strike? Why don’t you start weekly protests?

I‘m not american but my parents went to mass protests every fucking monday because they lived in a fucked up country(east germany) and guess what it actually fucking worked without having to lower themselves to political violence.

I guess the French could have asked nicely if the king would step down, yes. Im sure that would have worked.

Just like your idea to just vote in ''better people'' will work, because the system surely isnt designed in such a way to prevent that from happening.

There’s a massive space between asking to resign and starting a rebellion but i guess that can be ignored

 

[Chichikov]

Give us an example then? Because outside of Ghandi...

The Indian Independence movement used way more violence than Antifa ever did.

 

[shawnbuddy]

He's not wrong at all. When we had the out-of-town Neo-Nazis protest in my town people were more scared of the out-of-town Antifa that followed them here than the Nazis, because of their reputation for violence and for smashing up the street. We've rejected Nazis and KKK with non-violence before and had our own non-violent protest planned but had to cancel it because of fears of violent clashes between the two visiting sides. Fortunately the groups that visted weren't violent, although they were also outnumbered by cops who set up barriers to keep them physically separate so that could have been a factor. The violent tactics of some Antifa impress GAFers, but middle America sees them the way Trevor does.

 

[kitsunelaine]

If everything is so bad why don’t you start a general strike? Why don’t you start weekly protests?

because I don't think starting that in New Zealand would help America at all

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

He's not wrong at all. When we had the out-of-town Neo-Nazis protest in my town people were more scared of the out-of-town Antifa that followed them here than the Nazis, because of their reputation for violence and for smashing up the street. We've rejected Nazis and KKK with non-violence before and had our own non-violent protest planned but had to cancel it because of fears of violent clashes between the two visiting sides. Fortunately the groups that visted weren't violent, although they were also outnumbered by cops who set up barriers to keep them physically separate so that could have been a factor. The violent tactics of some Antifa impress GAFers, but middle America sees them the way Trevor does.

That says more about your townspeople

 

[Xando]

because I don't think starting that in New Zealand would help America at all

So we’re in the same position
We can discuss this all day but nothing will change until american citizens actually start to act.

 

[Jakten]

The violence of the American revolution wasn't actually commited by people who have democratic tools in a democratic system, was it?

Isn't that what democracy is about? To have a way to not use violence for your cause?

Do you believe that all people in the United States share the same democratic tools? What about shit like voter suppression? Republicans are constantly trying to take away minorities democratic tools and in many ways succeeding. It's a democracy that doesn't value every persons word the same. You need that mutual respect for it to work.

 

[Kthulhu]

The people making these laws are gerrymandering districts to pick voters that they know will support them so they can stay in power.

Stop pretending it's plain and simple.

Because violence undoes gerrymandering./s

Not to mention some of these violent antifa members are commiting violence in states that are either blue or have no gerrymandering (sometimes both). There are also blue states that have gerrymandering, does that mean neo-nazis are allowed to be violent there?

States have made gerrymandering illegal in the past, it's not like we can't do it now.

 

[bengraven]

The right wing nut who runs our work cafeteria calls then the "black KKK".

He almost got his ass kicked over it.

 

[kitsunelaine]

So we're in the same position
We can discuss this all day but nothing will change until american citizens actually start to act.

I also don't think it's up for us to judge whether or not those in the US actually feel like violence as a response to naziism is necessary. Viewing these things from a distance is completely different than living it and being near it. It might not feel like they're at the "last resort" point to us, but on a certain level you have to admit we're ignorant.

 

[sphagnum]

The right wing nut who runs our work cafeteria calls then the "black KKK".

He almost got his ass kicked over it.

This is kind of funny since one of the stereotypes on the left is that Antifa is a bunch of bored white kids.

 

[Osahi]

Do you believe that all people in the United States share the same democratic tools? What about shit like voter suppression? Republicans are constantly trying to take away minorities democratic tools and in many ways succeeding. It's a democracy that doesn't value every persons word the same. You need that mutual respect for it to work.

I'm not saying the system is perfect. Far from. And yes, voter supression is a big issue. But you're not living under a dictatorial regime. You're not powerless, even if it might seem the odds are stacked against you.

Only 8 and 4 years ago America voted for it's first black president, remember, and Trumps win wasn't a big sweap like tells himself.

You'll sooner win with democratic means than with violence. Because violence takes you steps back and actually plays in the cards of your oponnents.

 

[shawnbuddy]

That says more about your townspeople

It says that they care about the safety of their families and their town and don't want to sacrifice it to a fight between outsiders.

 

[shadow_shogun]

stupid, but i guess that's to be expected of a bougie

Seriously though, I like Trevor a great deal but aside from the destruction of property, I disagree with him here.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

It says that they care about the safety of their families and their town and don't want to sacrifice it to a fight between outsiders.

I feel like if that was really true they wouldn't have rolled over for Nazis in the first place.

 

[shawnbuddy]

I feel like if that was really true they wouldn't have rolled over for Nazis in the first place.

No one rolled over. We had a big locally organized counter-protest planned, like I said. We had a huge police presence. We couldn't legally stop the Nazis from coming, but we forced them to cancel some of their events at a local park and retreat to private property. The local police department took the opportunity to serve organizer Matthew Heimbach with warrants. But when Antifa came in with its paternalistic attitude and its violent reputation local non-violent efforts had to be scrapped for safety concerns.

 

[sphagnum]

Trevor seems like the kind of guy who would have a problem with the Black Panthers if he was around a couple decades ago.

 

[.J.]

People saying Trevor Noah is personally equating Atifa with ISIS need to practice reading comprehension. He's saying, "When other people see these acts of violence, this is what they think," which is basically true. He's making a point about how violence is perceived and how easy it is to give people like these FOX news talking heads the wrong kind of ammunition against your cause.

JFC, NeoGAF's half assed arm chair political pundits are really wearing on my nerves lately. It's disingenuous to point to this statement and try to frame it in the way some in this thread have framed it.

But, you know, keep throwing everyone who doesn't say exactly what you want to hear even when they're usually fighting for your cause under the fucking bus because you can't take a second evaluate whether your response is even warranted.

 

[Fox Mulder]

.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Anyone who throws punches (not in self defence) or smashes up property is a bad guy in my book, I don't care what side you're on. I don't think it needs to be any more nuanced than that.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Violence is the answer against nazis

 

[GoldenCrow]

"Having an intelligent discussion with a racist is pointless. It's like playing chess with a pigeon, it doesn't matter how good you are, the pigeon is going to knock all the pieces down and shit on the board and parade around like he's won" - Eric Cantona. But violence only begets more violence.

Antifa are crap though like most organisations without strong leadership, zero direction and do utterly pointless things thinking they made a difference therefore also acting like the pigeon from the above quote.

Education through varied interaction is really the only answer not violence or discussion. We know that racism is taught with popular media then perpetuating these stereotypes without any real engagement to counterbalance the fallacies.

My dad didn't start spewing his racist nonsense until I was in my late teens (18) but by then I had grown up with a very diverse group of friends so when he did start I knew it to be nonsense, plus my mum is the complete opposite and knew his views so spent her life teaching the opposite. Only argument I have had with my dad that turned into a fist fight, and still does to this day if it comes up. The depictions in media were only what Americans potentially were rather than anything else as those around me were nothing like the racist stereotypes. Traveling around the world with friends from different backgrounds American media has had a massive negative impact on the perception of non-white people, especially black people.

 

[Weilthain]

Antifa are a bunch of brainwashed clowns. Fox News comparing them to Isis is completely stupid though.