10% higher clocked cpu to deal with 40% extra gpu than an already limited by CPU console (ps4pro).
Also not all the extra ram is for games, and ps4pro has an additional half gig of ram too.. so we go from 4 more gigs to 2.5 more.
Lol
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Digital Foundry: Xbox Scorpio
- Thread starter LelouchZero
- Start date
Also not all the extra ram is for games, and ps4pro has an additional half gig of ram too.. so we go from 4 more gigs to 2.5 more.
Lol
geordiemp
Member
For frame rate in some instances yes, for some cases XB1 actually ran a few frames faster, remember driving through town on GTA 5 on digital foundry - XB1 ran better frame rate than OG Ps4 which DF believed CPU bottlenecked and dropped from 30 FPS... there was some other cases as well. where XB1S won.
But it was not so clear cut as you also had slower RAM and much less bandwidth on Xb1 so that pegged it back.
2.1 and 2.3 is certainly better than 1.7.....BUT the CPU's are still crap IPC wise and is the big limiter on these consoles, that is clear. Go read my posts in the NEO thread many months ago, I was equally critical of Pro.
Think about this also bud.
You do know in today's games cpu isn't as constrained as before. Most gpu work can now be done on gpu. This is why cpu in the pc space hasn't evolved in the past 7 years much. My i7 920 from 2010 still runs games great with my updated gpu.
Also more ram at 326GB/S is extremely important to get things like 4k assets and graphics running. What you seen in the ForzaTech demo isn't possible in pro
Do you also get All the DX12 metal Integration?
Gossen said:
Source: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1358475
Backfoggen
Banned
Thread got extremely good today.
FacelessSamurai
..but cry so much I wish I had some
From what I understand, Zen would have been possible this year but only in a 4 core configuration which means it might not have been guaranteed to be 100% possible with previous games so Microsoft has to go with Jaguar. When it comes to the GPU though, I'm guessing Vega must have been on the table but keeping the cost down must have been a priority. I'm guessing R&D on these systems must be low as they know they won't be selling too many systems either, so they probably thinkna lot about their return on investment when doing these mid gen refreshes.
What I'd say though is that what they have is still incredible and the added RAM as well as 16xAF and Forza at 4k 60fps means they are hitting all the right targets.
IMO though, the big battle will be next gen. Microsoft talks about gaming beyond generations and having the same model as cellphones where your games will always follow you in the future. I personally am very invested in the Xbox ecosystem by being all digital and this is the first gen I only own 1 console. I think if they or Sony don't have full backwards compatibility on Xbox Two / PS5 then we might see consumers move from one console manufacturer to another. Both of them using AMD might mean they will both be the same, but considering Sony was hesitant to add boost mode and with their interviews they didnt seem so sure about future support while Microsoft seems to be actively pursuing it, or at least they are alluding to it.
Zen APUs in 8 core configs will be available in the future and should make next gen sustems quite powerful. I'm just wondering when that will hit and if both MS and Sony will release at the same time or if Pro and Scorpio being 1 year apart means this will be the case withbthe upcoming consoles.
What I'd say though is that what they have is still incredible and the added RAM as well as 16xAF and Forza at 4k 60fps means they are hitting all the right targets.
IMO though, the big battle will be next gen. Microsoft talks about gaming beyond generations and having the same model as cellphones where your games will always follow you in the future. I personally am very invested in the Xbox ecosystem by being all digital and this is the first gen I only own 1 console. I think if they or Sony don't have full backwards compatibility on Xbox Two / PS5 then we might see consumers move from one console manufacturer to another. Both of them using AMD might mean they will both be the same, but considering Sony was hesitant to add boost mode and with their interviews they didnt seem so sure about future support while Microsoft seems to be actively pursuing it, or at least they are alluding to it.
Zen APUs in 8 core configs will be available in the future and should make next gen sustems quite powerful. I'm just wondering when that will hit and if both MS and Sony will release at the same time or if Pro and Scorpio being 1 year apart means this will be the case withbthe upcoming consoles.
Tell me how has this crap cpu prevented games like uc4, FH3, horizon zd, and more from looking top in the industry?
So your previous claims that Scorpio's cpu with direct x12 that was a game changer upgrade vs the pro , now is irrelevant. I mean, comparing an i7 with a Jaguar... Well. Yeah.
Now the 60fps thing is irrelevant too. Not that i care much, but all those games are 30fps and according to yourself games like horizon are using base assets....
Hiro_Kunimi_80
Member
The difference between a gamer enthusiast and a person who decide which component put into an hardware, it's called " Common sense and Business Plan constraints "
Microsoft or Sony ( or pretty much everyone in the industry ) when defines the BOM of a new hardware product, set up as first thing the price and the COST of this hardware at day one AND the Price and the COST of the hardware with mass production after at least 3 years in advance, taking in consideration possible issue due to dollar exchange fluctuations, components shortage at day one and pretty much any other fixed costs involved.
Xbox scorpio or ps4 PRO are built with the target price after at least 3 years in advance in mind.
you CAN throw in a box a 1080TI + Ryzen X1800 + SSD or whatever you need, but then you already know that you have to sell at XXX $ at day one and YXX $ in a 3 years or so, in order to have a PROFITABLE business plan with decent margin and possible backup plan ( called anticipated price cut ) if sales collapse..
if this 2 two variable price are completely out of the market for a console then they found compromise with the components inside..
both Ps4 pro and Scorpio are built with a 399$ price at day one and a 199$ price after 3 years or so any minor difference more or less ( 449$ or 249$ ) will be taken in consideration. and I hardly believe that a Vega + Ryzen hardware would be possible at that price point even in a 3 years from now
if Sony won't cut PRO price then Scorpio will be 449$ at day one, if they will cut during gamecon in august then will be 399$ or they will throw some bundled game / trade in plan into consideration and so on
Microsoft or Sony ( or pretty much everyone in the industry ) when defines the BOM of a new hardware product, set up as first thing the price and the COST of this hardware at day one AND the Price and the COST of the hardware with mass production after at least 3 years in advance, taking in consideration possible issue due to dollar exchange fluctuations, components shortage at day one and pretty much any other fixed costs involved.
Xbox scorpio or ps4 PRO are built with the target price after at least 3 years in advance in mind.
you CAN throw in a box a 1080TI + Ryzen X1800 + SSD or whatever you need, but then you already know that you have to sell at XXX $ at day one and YXX $ in a 3 years or so, in order to have a PROFITABLE business plan with decent margin and possible backup plan ( called anticipated price cut ) if sales collapse..
if this 2 two variable price are completely out of the market for a console then they found compromise with the components inside..
both Ps4 pro and Scorpio are built with a 399$ price at day one and a 199$ price after 3 years or so any minor difference more or less ( 449$ or 249$ ) will be taken in consideration. and I hardly believe that a Vega + Ryzen hardware would be possible at that price point even in a 3 years from now
if Sony won't cut PRO price then Scorpio will be 449$ at day one, if they will cut during gamecon in august then will be 399$ or they will throw some bundled game / trade in plan into consideration and so on
geordiemp
Member
UC4 and Horion are good looking because of the GPU, Scorpio will be SLIGHTLY better IQ, I agree, maybe some shadow, lighting, AF, textures....if you squint.
BUT Horizon is 30 FPS and rock solid at that, but it could never be 60 FPS, that would require a CPU that has a higher IPC. A CPU that does almost twice the instructions per clock like an Intel or Ryzen (Zen finally catching Intel up), that is why Jaguar is a mobile grade CPU its slow no matter what the clock speed.
We wont get 60 FPS on such titles until the CPU is brought up to date on consoles. Racing games are a different discussion
That is my opinion, it was stated many times months before PRO came out, and I was not alone, many posters wanted 60 FPS > 4K on console, there was even a GAF vote and guess what won ?
wesleyshark
Banned
Except no one from Msoft has ever said there would be exclusive Scorpio games. Their idea is to have all games works across the Xbox One ecosystem.
Tomeru
Member
I'm trying to get a general feelibg here, but do most here think the scorpio would offer advantages to 3rd party titles over the ps4p?
Other than the obvious resolution bump, do people expect the scorpio to offer better graphics/effects/frame for the same titles compared to ps4p?
Other than the obvious resolution bump, do people expect the scorpio to offer better graphics/effects/frame for the same titles compared to ps4p?
I didn't say it was a game changer. I posted the article from DF. What are you on?
I've always been saying the biggest improvements Scorpio has over pro is the 2TF of extra gpu power, 12GB of ram, and a 326GB/S bandwidth. It doesn't matter if it was zen or not since these specs are the same. All zen would have done is made games alot smoother but are you saying games on pro is a unstable mess?
Look i understand you want to downplay anything Xbox as much you can but sometimes you just gotta be happy
Also my i7 shows that games since 2010 hasn't needed a stronger cpu but gpu upgrades were needed. My point is proven that games now days aren't restricted by cpu as much since it's all mostly on gpu. Where have you been the past 5 years?
I can see where we see differently. You see 30fps to 60fps as the main metric. I think that's what most people who nay say any advantage over pro. I'm talking about graphically. When it comes to taking screenshots on Scorpio vs pro, you'll see a margin of difference between the two. Scorpio being able to handle extremely higher assets which includes textures, character models, draw distances, IQ. When you compare performance yea both will be close. I don't see performance as the metric of being better looking. Also being 30fps vs 60fps is always on the dev to decide.
Thanks and keep up the good work,love your This Week on Xbox every friday. ;P
You are downplaying the role of CPUs way too much. The Jags have been a pain in the ass of developers since the XBO and PS4 came out.
Colbert
Banned
i dont expect better frame rates in the meaning of 30 on PS4 Pro and 60 on Scorpio that will be still the same but I expect more stable or even locked frame rates depending on the game on Scorpio.
not really. The one overhyping scorpio and downplaying the pro is you.
I have a clear picture of scorpio: 1.4 * Ps4Pro
That's it. As good or bad as the pro was for its time (2016/2017) and a logical spec upgrade for a 12 months difference.
It will give better visuals than pro, just like ps4 gives better visuals than xbo.
And games that want to reach 60 fps need a stronger cpu, no matter what you say.
geordiemp
Member
A Zen would do almost twice as much work (1.7 roughly) per clock, so a 2.3 ghz full on big ZEN CPU for example, in a console would be a wet dream.
Oh I agree. Never doubted it for a second, and on my PC on a still image zoomed in Scorpio will look better. No doubts
And for reference, your I7 does about 3 x the amount of work per second that Jaguar will do in Scorpio, thats why PC games are not limited by CPU, the CPU's do twice the work per clock and they are clocked higher.
Yes, I do. It'll become my go to for third party stuff.
Well how's these games out now able to keep stable fps with no issues? I'll like to see where games run 15fps-24fps consistantly to say the cpu isn't keeping up anymore. So far what i see is the cpu is doing fine for devs with their targeted goals for the games.
That ForzaTech demo on Scorpio shows no issues what so ever.
wesleyshark
Banned
Zen I agree Vega no way. Sony got Polaris that launched June 29th last year. Vega will be a similar time line June this year. I am still trying to figure out why Scorpio is not launching now. It is a over clocked pro with a bigger memory controller.
?
Games are being designed to try and make do with the Jags limitations, and tons of console games out there suffer from poor or erratic frame rates.
That a game can be made that runs at a locked 30 or 60 in no way means that there isn't a problem here.
I'm not downplaying lol the specs show what it is. Scorpio having 40%+ gpu, way more ram, 100+ GB/S bandwidth is what adds to a good deal over pro for graphics. Plain and simple. The additional ram and bandwidth allows alot for graphics that pro couldn't provide in any way over ps4/xb1. Pro is mainly a base ps4 game running in higher res. With Scorpio's tech they can get 4k assets that means better looking textures and such. The difference is larger than what ps4/xb1 was
Vega might be launching soon, but that doesn't mean it was available for custom work on the same timetable as Polaris was.
But Scorpio is the shit. Ok
Again what would a stronger cpu would allow that will be something not seen before in a game? Devs are still doing new things which the cpu in the consoles are still keeping up with. No matter how strong a cpu is devs will always have to manage to it' restrictions. From what i see games are still coming out that haven't been done before and look top notch. You're acting like devs are suddenly stuck from creating better games? Hmm so nothing we will see this year and beyond will look the same as games previously released?
If that's what you get from that. Again nothing you said counters anything. It seems you're very defensive of how Scorpio's tech allows better graphics. Where did i say pro is crap? I really think you need to take a breath and reread. I'm stating what Scorpio will do for games. If you're mad about it then maybe you shouldn't be in this thread yea/
Pro also has 4K native and the Scorpio will be getting games with CB or similar techniques.
If a game can run 4k native on pro, you can best bet the additional power on Scorpio will allow better graphics. When it comes to taking screenshots there'll be a large difference in assets. No doubt about that
geordiemp
Member
Take the latest Mass Effect and Frostbite, in Multiplayer 8 enemies are on the map plus 4 players, you kill some and more enemies spawn. My current game as an example.
We are limited on enemy numbers, AI of that enemy, the actions they take, physics, and stuck at 30 FPS because of Jaguar...Things that have not moved on enough from last gen....it probably brings down the PC versions to the same level in many games. Just my opinion.
Yeah you can get lots of enemies in some games (with laughable AI).
When some of the posts said Scorpio will be a new gen (ori dev ?), I thought maybe MS threw cash at AMD and got Zen in a massive APU die and it would really kill the Ps4 pro, we would be talking 60 vs 30 on Digital foundry on many 3rd party and not zooming in on a shadow in the corner of the screen.
wesleyshark
Banned
Xbox One S has a UHD drive and it works just fine. I'd assume the Scorpio will as well.
...
Devs are talented and, as always, try to do the best they can with what they have. However, it's a basic fact that the Jags have both hurt performance and limited the ability of game devs to reach their goals since 2013. In fact, the Jags are weaker CPUs than both Sony and MS were hoping and planning for before the PS4 and XBO came out. It's just all that AMD could do, and still is (at least until Zen can be in a semi-custom).
Your logic here is flawed, and frankly your demeanor is a little abrasive.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
A fx-8350 @ 2.3GHz paired with RX 480 @ 1305MHz pulls 55fps avg over 1min benchmark fight scene vs 4 enemies in Ryse at 1080p with highest textures, 16xAF, and better than Xbox One settings.
This is disregarding the memory bandwidth advantage of the Scorpio with all the custom tuning MS has done, so 1080p/60fps is well within Scorpio's grasp. Personally, I'd take a solid 30fps with 1080p + 2x2 supersampling in Ryse over 1080p/60fps any day. IQ is so fucking crisp compared to Xbox One Ryse. Very pleasing experience.
Eliciel
Member
Why not buy a S then?
because I am willing to pay up to 500 € if the device on scorpio is good. It's for home cinema on a 65 LG C6
Sora the Cat
Member
Of course multiplats will have better graphics on scorpio.
Ummmm....yea that was never announced to be a new gen. I don't know how you came to that conclusion
Oke. I am not sure if the Scorpio one is gonna be different. But the S one is pretty good already.
dragos495
Member
get the one s. i did the same for that exact tv. ended up paying 199 including fh3 and gow4.
the uhd movies... paid twice or triple that. cant get enough of that amazing IQ!
Having a weak cpu has been the basis of all consoles. 360 and ps3 cpu were weak compared to what pc had. Heck this is the first gen where we have a Out of Order cpu and not the weak in order cpu past consoles had. This gen is no different. You are just stating a fact that console hardware isn't as powerful/capable as on pc. This will always be the case. Nothing new
LlamaJohnson
Member
Hell I still don't know what Zen is. This shit confuses me.
amstradcpc
Member
And why Sony could a year before mix Polaris and Vega parts and add custom silicom?.
geordiemp
Member
Code name for Ryzen CPU, the new one from AMD that matches Intel.
Its a big ass CPU that does almost twice as much per clock as a Jaguar. Just think speed zen = 2 x Jaguar is simple.
Thats ONE of the reasons why PC's get 60 FPS versions of our console games.
Its not just about Bandwidth and Flops.
The Jags are particularly weak points on these systems, and have been some of the largest bottlenecks they have. That's the problem with them, not some comparison between them and PC chips.
Colbert
Banned
Zen is the art of central unit processing.
You'd have to ask AMD? I'm saying a certain timetable working a year prior for a different product in no ways means that same situation has to apply in the future.
It is you that consider others that just see the logical upgrade and nothing more as downplaying.
It's your words considering ps4pro a higher res ps4 but claims the scorpio more than that.
I have a clear picture, as i said. 40% more powerful than pro. That's it. Maybe 37% or maybe 43% depending on the scenario but in that range, that is similar advantage than vanilla ps4 had over vanilla xbo.
One targeted 1080p easily the other not so much.
Scorpio will target 4k easily and pro not so much.
And by the way, you seem to forget selectively of course, that ps4pro , compared to ps4,also busts ram speed(23%), CPU speed(30%), memory (1gb more ddr3 to free standard ram for game usage) and obviously gpu flops. But hey, just higher res ps4.