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[benny_a]

Front the AMD GCN white paper:

http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/GCN_Architecture_whitepaper.pdf

So if they have ECC enabled and thus 6% larger data and ~6% less bandwidth due to this, we can also apply do this math:
204GB/s (which would be the actual peak bandwidth claimed by other at 800Mhz) * 0.94 = 191.76 = ~ 192 GB/s

Good find!

Yeah, but then you could not retain a peek bandwidth of 102.4GB/s for single reads or writes.

In general it's questionable for why ECC would be enabled in a gaming console.
That 102.4GB/s might only have been cited to counter the downclock stuff.

Is ECC something worth enabling for a games console?

 

[Xenon]

"Most powerful console ever made"

To be fair some people here believe the PS4 was immaculately conceived by Mark Cerny, not simply "made" like those other consoles

 

[Espada]

To add to that PDF, the PS4 GPU has a lot more fine control over CU divisions between rendering and compute so it won't need to sacrifice entire CUs for compute benefits.

Another misconception many people have is that you have to assign a compute unit to either graphics or compute. That is not the case. A compute unit can do both at the same tim, prioritize one over the other, and fill in compute tasks when graphics computations are stalled. That is actually the point of many alterations of PS4 over vanilla GCN.

Yup. Cerny has been very transparent about this.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?page=2

This is what he was referring to in that Gamelab presentation about something developers can work on as the console matures. The console is setup to make the most of GPGPU computing. That's what the slide listing collision detection, world simulation, etc... was listing. Benefits of this type of thing. It's something whose fruits we'll not see for another year or two because it's rather new.

Edit: Mind you, this isn't exclusive to the PS4 it's just that the console has had specific modifications made to it to make the most of it. Here's another link that shows the perks of using the GPU for certain tasks.

http://www.slideshare.net/zlatan4177/gpgpu-algorithms-in-games

 

[Facism]

To be fair some people here believe the PS4 was immaculately conceived by Mark Cerny, not simply "made" like those other consoles

Did they unlock an achievement for believing that?

 

[Flatline]

The hell are you talking about? I'm asking what MS thought they were going to gain by putting out info that was going to be immediately dissected by the only people who care. Gamers non-versed in hardware don't understand it and those who understood it immediately came to the conclusion of a downclock. So, again, how were MS expecting to benefit from this news? If forumites instantly thought downgrade it seems like the person from MS would have also seen that the info would be used as evidence of a downgrade. I don't mind people delving into the issue at all, in fact it's one of the reasons I love GAF. Perhaps you thought I liked to indulge in fanboy shenanigans. I assure you I do not.

I should have specified that I was talking about the 'IT'S A DOWNGRADE' comment. All I'm saying is that I agree we kind of fucked up in this thread and we were utterly confused but it's Microsoft's fault.

Microsoft will probably benefit by using the PR number in other fluff pieces it's gonna plant in the web to muddy the waters about the power difference. Not to mentioned that the easily confused gaming press could easily adopt these numbers like they've done in the past with other PR bullshit.

 

[jaypah]

To be fair some people here believe the PS4 was immaculately conceived by Mark Cerny, not simply "made" like those other consoles

Did Cerny tweet that he immaculately conceived the PS4? Because there's an actual tweet stating that the 180 is the most powerful console

 

[Mastperf]

here:
http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/pdf/130221a_e.pdf


Most people here know specialguy/rangers/tyrone is a fanboy that shouldn't be taken seriously.

Thank you.
He's also been known to claim Sony's OS will also be 3GB as well.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

To be fair some people here believe the PS4 was immaculately conceived by Mark Cerny, not simply "made" like those other consoles

First natural birth on planet console sent to earth to be a beacon of light to all.

 

[LowEndTorque]

Oh shit... I almost woke my daughter up from her nap with my sudden outburst of laughter at "most powerful console ever made." .....ohyou.jpeg

 

[Xenon]

Did they unlock an achievement for believing that?

It would be a Trophy, duhhh.

 

[Hawk269]

I should have specified that I was talking about the 'IT'S A DOWNGRADE' comment. All I'm saying is that I agree we kind of fucked up in this thread and we were utterly confused but it's Microsoft's fault.

Microsoft will probably benefit by using the PR number in other fluff pieces it's gonna plant in the web to muddy the waters about the power difference. Not to mentioned that the easily confused gaming press could easily adopt these numbers like they've done in the past with other PR bullshit.

You mean like when Sony had George Lucas state that the PS2 is so powerful that he could have rendered all of the Star Wars stuff on it?

Or that the PS2 is so powerful it cannot be sold in 3rd world countries because it was so powerful that it could launch nuclear missles?

I remember watching the news and the above was actually in the media. It was crazy shit and people soaked it up.

 

[Suikoguy]

Its only a select few that insist on justifying hardware specs. When people going to realise that its the exclusives and games that determine the ability of the consoles. PS4 IS more powerful, period. There is no which way about it. But the fact remains next gen games will all be coming to both platforms. What does that mean?

Both consoles have different capabilities and over different experiences. So far X1 seems to have showcased this a lot more variety than PS4, which looks to be a full on hardware boost and some nice indie support.

Smart matchmaking, dedicated servers, Kinect sensor, instant switching, Live TV and Windows 8 synergy opening up the platform to many devs. X1 has some good things coming, you'd have to be ignorant not to see that.

Wow dude, did you get that last paragraph straight from MS?

 

[klaus]

I stated this before and will do so again. At the end of the day it all comes down to the games and how they look and how they play. Up until now, there has been ONE show that has allowed people to play both consoles. I was one of those people that was able to play many games on both platforms. Some were played on the show floor, some behind closed doors as part of meetings.

Based on what I played and I stress this as my opinion, the Xbox One games seemed cleaner, running smoother and just overall looked better than anything on the PS4. Forza 5 was the only playable game that was running pure 1080p/60fps and it really showed it strengths because of that.

You all can take that for what you will, but like anything in this industry, it is going to come down to the games, not a spec sheet. While one on paper can mathematically be more powerful, when it comes to games that usually always tells a different story.

Just to be clear: Yes, I realize that E3 is not a great barometer because of how early games are and nothing shown/playable was anywhere near final. However, with that being said, right now that is the only comparison that can be made between the two consoles until another event is hosted that allows for people to play both systems again.

Amen to that.

 

[ElTorro]

Is ECC something worth enabling for a games console?

Not really. It would also decrease the amount of usable ESRAM, since you would have to store parity bits.

 

[Bornstellar]

This thread reads like the tech equivalent of reddit hunting terrorists.

I don't think I've ever seen a more appropriate analogy.

 

[artist]

From the AMD GCN white paper:

http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/GCN_Architecture_whitepaper.pdf

So if they have ECC enabled and thus 6% larger data and ~6% less bandwidth due to this, we can also apply do this math:
204GB/s (which would be the actual peak bandwidth claimed by other at 800Mhz) * 0.94 = 191.76 = ~ 192 GB/s

Just take a second and think why ECC would be required in a console.

 

[Espada]

You mean like when Sony had George Lucas state that the PS2 is so powerful that he could have rendered all of the Star Wars stuff on it?

Or that the PS2 is so powerful it cannot be sold in 3rd world countries because it was so powerful that it could launch nuclear missles?

I remember watching the news and the above was actually in the media. It was crazy shit and people soaked it up.

Don't forget "Toy Story graphics", Emotion Engine, and Reality Synthesizer. Or when the PS3 came around, we got "4D" business.

People love gobbling up this PR fluff, so I'm certain Microsoft will succeed in burying any kind of tech disadavantage with it.

 

[jaypah]

I should have specified that I was talking about the 'IT'S A DOWNGRADE' comment. All I'm saying is that I agree we kind of fucked up in this thread and we were utterly confused but it's Microsoft's fault.

Microsoft will probably benefit by using the PR number in other fluff pieces it's gonna plant in the web to muddy the waters about the power difference. Not to mentioned that the easily confused gaming press could easily adopt these numbers like they've done in the past with other PR bullshit.

The "IT'S A DOWNGRADE!" comment was in all caps to stress how quickly people crunched the numbers and felt that something was off.

 

[benny_a]

I remember watching the news and the above was actually in the media. It was crazy shit and people soaked it up.

Always with the allusion with how people soaked something up in the past, unfortunately unspecified where so it can't be verified by a third party.

How do you know the people currently discussing things in this thread would have soaked it up?

 

[bishoptl]

So far MS's mouthpieces have all been suits. Has anyone from the engineering side been interviewed?

What's stopping them, exactly? Other than the obvious reason, I mean.

it is possible that given the specs revealed by Sony, MS is scrambling to squeeze out more performance from the hardware before spilling it out

Cboat said something similar but I don't agree that it's a rational course of action. Making changes this late in the game? *shudder*

 

[ekim]

Just take a second and think why ECC would be required in a console.

The smiley I uses gave the seriousness of my post away.

Edit: tbh, I don't know if ECC would benefit a console but I know that my equation and it's result is most probably just coincidence.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I stated this before and will do so again. At the end of the day it all comes down to the games and how they look and how they play. Up until now, there has been ONE show that has allowed people to play both consoles. I was one of those people that was able to play many games on both platforms. Some were played on the show floor, some behind closed doors as part of meetings.

Based on what I played and I stress this as my opinion, the Xbox One games seemed cleaner, running smoother and just overall looked better than anything on the PS4. Forza 5 was the only playable game that was running pure 1080p/60fps and it really showed it strengths because of that.

You all can take that for what you will, but like anything in this industry, it is going to come down to the games, not a spec sheet. While one on paper can mathematically be more powerful, when it comes to games that usually always tells a different story.

Just to be clear: Yes, I realize that E3 is not a great barometer because of how early games are and nothing shown/playable was anywhere near final. However, with that being said, right now that is the only comparison that can be made between the two consoles until another event is hosted that allows for people to play both systems again.

Given the concessions Forza has to make in order to achieve 1080p/60fps, is it any sort of marvel you're making it out to be?

Framerate and resolution aren't barometers of power or potential in an isolated context.

As far as E3 showings go, there was a ton that looked better than Forza and ran at 30 fps (such as InFamous: Second Son).

 

[Flatline]

From the AMD GCN white paper:

http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/GCN_Architecture_whitepaper.pdf

So if they have ECC enabled and thus 6% larger data and ~6% less bandwidth due to this, we can also apply do this math:
204GB/s (which would be the actual peak bandwidth claimed by other at 800Mhz) * 0.94 = 191.76 = ~ 192 GB/s

Why is ECC not calculated with the actual number (102.4)? Why would they calculate ECC on a theoretical figure and not the realistic one?

 

[benny_a]

Cboat said something similar but I don't agree that it's a rational course of action. Making changes this late in the game? *shudder*

Purely for selfish reasons I want them to overclock their GPU so it gets closer to parity and then eat the losses they incur due to yields and returns.

Why is ECC not calculated with at the realistic 102.4 number? Why would they calculate ECC on a theoretical figure and not the realistic one?

This is the calculation: 102.4 * 2 (read and write) = 204.8 * 0.94 = 192.52 ~ 192GB/s

 

[Mastperf]

I stated this before and will do so again. At the end of the day it all comes down to the games and how they look and how they play. Up until now, there has been ONE show that has allowed people to play both consoles. I was one of those people that was able to play many games on both platforms. Some were played on the show floor, some behind closed doors as part of meetings.

Based on what I played and I stress this as my opinion, the Xbox One games seemed cleaner, running smoother and just overall looked better than anything on the PS4. Forza 5 was the only playable game that was running pure 1080p/60fps and it really showed it strengths because of that.

You all can take that for what you will, but like anything in this industry, it is going to come down to the games, not a spec sheet. While one on paper can mathematically be more powerful, when it comes to games that usually always tells a different story.

Just to be clear: Yes, I realize that E3 is not a great barometer because of how early games are and nothing shown/playable was anywhere near final. However, with that being said, right now that is the only comparison that can be made between the two consoles until another event is hosted that allows for people to play both systems again.

I would argue that Infamous and Killzone were both technically superior to any game MS had running on Xb1. Both Titanfall and Forza look like they should be running at 1080p and 60fps if running on either system. That's not to say they don't look great, but "looks" isn't something that can be technically measured.

 

[Espada]

Purely for selfish reasons I want them to overclock their GPU so it gets closer to parity and then eat the losses they incur due to yields and returns.

What could they do beyond tweaking some stuff slightly? Anything more would require the console be submitted to testing again, delaying it beyond the holiday season.

 

[Flatline]

The "IT'S A DOWNGRADE!" comment was in all caps to stress how quickly people crunched the numbers and felt that something was off.

Oh, nevermind then. We agree anyway.

 

[Kinyou]

Jack tretton said the pubs are saying third party games look better, So I dont know what all the fuss is about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mm3P4Ft-y4&feature=player_detailpage#t=380s

That sure is an unbiased source

 

[S¡mon]

What could they do beyond tweaking some stuff slightly? Anything more would require the console be submitted to testing again be delayed beyond the holiday season.

That seems to be the best way to insure quality, and powerful performance.

 

[Hawk269]

Always with the allusion with how people soaked something up in the past, unfortunately unspecified where so it can't be verified by a third party.

How do you know the people currently discussing things in this thread would have soaked it up?

For one the fact that the people reading or posting in this thread are hardcore gamers and I would think anyone hardcore enough to be reading and posting in this thread on a Sunday is smart enough not to fall to PR bullshit like has been done in the past.

 

[Flatline]

This is the calculation: 102.4 * 2 (read and write) = 204.8 * 0.94 = 192.52 ~ 192GB/s

Again, why does the realistic figure not take into account the ECC but a highly theoretical one does?

 

[benny_a]

What could they do beyond tweaking some stuff slightly? Anything more would require the console be submitted to testing again be delayed beyond the holiday season.

Changing the clock speed is possible. I remember that the added thermal and power draw goes whack beyond what it's currently rumored at but I don't remember if that was only for the Jaguar CPU or also for the GPU. (The latter I would like to have clocked higher.)

 

[Gestault]

People upset at overreaching, exaggerated, hyperbolic, conceited and out-of-touch statements corresponding with product launches must not enjoy video-games very much.

 

[Flatline]

You mean like when Sony had George Lucas state that the PS2 is so powerful that he could have rendered all of the Star Wars stuff on it?

Or that the PS2 is so powerful it cannot be sold in 3rd world countries because it was so powerful that it could launch nuclear missles?

I remember watching the news and the above was actually in the media. It was crazy shit and people soaked it up.

Thank God for the internet, our cynicism doesn't allow this ridiculous crap anymore. Sony tried that same recipe in 2006 and it backfired in ways they couldn't even imagine.

 

[guch20]

Wow dude, did you get that last paragraph straight from MS?

The funny thing is, most of that stuff is either shared across consoles or something most core gamers don't give two shits about.

 

[Espada]

That seems to be the best way to insure quality, and powerful performance.

Yeah, but this is a business. They'd lose a holiday season to their competitors. If they're going to delay the console and lose business like that, they might as well make major revisions to it.

Changing the clock speed is possible. I remember that the added thermal and power draw goes whack beyond what it's currently rumored at but I don't remember if that was only for the Jaguar CPU or also for the GPU. (The latter I would like to have clocked higher.)

Man, this is all kinds of crazy. Yield issues, Microsoft scrambling to squeeze extra power out of the machine, all sorts of madness going on here.

 

[benny_a]

Man, this is all kinds of crazy. Yield issues, Microsoft scrambling to squeeze extra power out of the machine, all sorts of madness going on here.

I have a dream

 

[Xenon]

What's stopping them, exactly? Other than the obvious reason, I mean.

To me the people leading the charge on the 360 were more technical. Once the console launched they moved on to other things. I think that is when the business side took over. Since the 360 was pretty much on autopilot after a few years in and the Kinect gamble paid off, they were left in charge to handle the Xbox One launch. Maybe there isn't a personality on the engineer team they thought could be a spokesperson, or more likely they didn't even bother to check.

Maybe it was a deliberate attempt by MS to completely hide there specs, like Sony has with sales numbers since it's been battered the last few years. But their three stooges seemed so out of the loop on even the most basics parts of the systems policies, I doubt they knew advance design specifications and how to compare them to the PS4.

Cboat said something similar but I don't agree that it's a rational course of action. Making changes this late in the game? *shudder*

People said the same on DRM. Of course it's just software, but MS has proven they are willing to do whatever they can to stay competitive. They may not change anything but I am sure they have/had people looking into it.

 

[shinnn]

Given the concessions Forza has to make in order to achieve 1080p/60fps, is it any sort of marvel you're making it out to be?

Framerate and resolution aren't barometers of power or potential in an isolated context.

As far as E3 showings go, there was a ton that looked better than Forza and ran at 30 fps (such as InFamous: Second Son).

Lol... people in the last months so excited about 1080p/60fps and now it has been downplayed to death.

 

[McHuj]

August 24th MS is presenting the Xbox One silicon at Hotchips. I don't know what they show, but I doubt they will be playing funny PR math there. We'll probably get a good block diagram with bandwidths and all their reasons for the ESRAM.

When the 360 launched they were pretty upfront with the 360 architecture and then fairly detailed with the XCGPU in 2010.

 

[benny_a]

People said the same on DRM. Of course it's just software, but MS has proven they are willing to do whatever they can to stay competitive. They may not change anything but I am sure they have/had people looking into it.

I think the current strategy is still to maybe acknowledge that the specs are weaker and then trying to spread a bit of doubt like Albert Penello (Marketing and Leads planning for Xbox One) saying:

Given the rumored specs for both systems, can anyone conceive of a circumstance or decision one platform holder could make, where despite the theoretical performance benchmarks of the components, the box that appears “weaker” could actually be more powerful?

 

[bishoptl]

People said the same on DRM. Of course it's just software, but MS has proven they are willing to do whatever they can to stay competitive. They may not change anything but I am sure they have/had people looking into it.

Huge difference between software and hardware changes at this point. I don't know why you'd even make the comparison, tbh.

 

[Gestault]

As far as E3 showings go, there was a ton that looked better than Forza and ran at 30 fps (such as InFamous: Second Son).

With respect, I don't think you saw what Second Son looked like on the floor if you're saying that.

 

[jaypah]

Oh, nevermind then. We agree anyway.

No problem, cheers.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Lol... people in the last months so excited about 1080p/60fps and now it has been downplayed to death.

People still are excited about 1080p/60fps games since they're important for various genres, but generally they're not the best looking titles....and if they do end up being graphically impressive it is quite a feat.

I don't know what people you are referring to but the debate of 30 vs 60 fps is never going to end, no matter how powerful the hardware (at least until we get to the point of diminishing returns, whenever that is)

With respect, I don't think you saw what Second Son looked like on the floor if you're saying that.

Huh? I saw the gameplay footage that was being demoed on the show floor. Gamersyde has 1080p footage of it and it looks marvelous.

 

[Mastperf]

With respect, I don't think you saw what Second Son looked like on the floor if you're saying that.

Infamous was one of the best looking and most polished PS4 games at E3.

http://www.gamersyde.com/download_infamous_second_son_e3_trailer-30188_en.html
Direct feed and looking incredible.

 

[plagiarize]

Lol... people in the last months so excited about 1080p/60fps and now it has been downplayed to death.

1080p at 60 fps is awesome, but we can't draw comparisons between an Xbox One game at 1080p and 60 fps, with one on PS4 at 1080p and 30 fps, without, you know, comparing all the different elements of the graphics on both games.

Rayman Legends runs at 1080p and 60 fps on Wii U. If I tried to use that to claim the Wii U was as powerful as the Xbone, you'd rightly point out that Rayman uses primarily 2D elements and Forza 4 does not.

because you can't just take frame rate and resolution in isolation.

I'm sure Forza 6 will hit those targets and bring back the missing features, but in prioritizing framerate and resolution at launch, there are plenty of things missing that we see in equivalent games on the current gen. they got there at launch by making lots of concessions.

them's the breaks. you can just cite the upside.

 

[perineumlick]

With respect, I don't think you saw what Second Son looked like on the floor if you're saying that.

So now Infamous doesn't look impressive?

 

[ekim]

I think the current strategy is still to maybe acknowledge that the specs are weaker and then trying to spread a bit of doubt like Albert Penello (Marketing and Leads planning for Xbox One) saying:

I asked if he wanted to hint at a HW change but he just answered with the same question and added he is not taking about the cloud. So either he talks about drivers and tools or something unknown.

 

[AlphaDump]

so basically the ram is a 192 mph scooter and a 60 mph mack truck vs a 170 mph mack truck that can also pick up a new load twice as fast as the 60 mph mack truck.


correct me if am wrong