I don't even know if he wears them!
Joe Montana is a Sketchers snake oil salesman
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ESPN Ranks LeBron as the #3 NBA Player All-Time. What say you?
- Thread starter GhostWriter24
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I don't even know if he wears them!
Joe Montana is a Sketchers snake oil salesman
dragonyeuw
Member
The other thing is, based on the current landscape of the league, it wouldn't surprise me if Lebron failed to win another title or MVP. He's quite clearly on the down-slope of his prime at 31 with 13 seasons under his belt. Curry and the Warriors have taken over the league, and barring some unforeseen trade or free agent signing, the MVP and title locks to be locked up for the next couple of seasons. Durant sits right behind Curry as the number two player in the league, I think he has surpassed Lebron *currently* in terms of on-court performance. San Antonio is right behind the Warriors as a threat, and seem to always reload on the fly and stay relevant no matter how old Duncan, Parker and Ginobli are growing. Cleveland has not shot, from where I sit, at beating either team. Unless Lebron bolts again or a few players of serious impact go to Cleveland, I can see Lebron ending his career with 2 titles. There is no fucking way in hell that warrants top 3 status. But, we'll see what the next 4-5 years bring us. But RIGHT NOW? Top 3?! No fucking way.
No shit? I'm sure he's crushed by this news. CRUSHED. Someone find Barkley to elaborate more on this terrible new development in sports.
Pristine_Condition
Member
I'd put him over Hakeem Olajuan, and that's it. So #9.
All the other guys were team leaders on teams that have more Championships... except for Wilt, who has the same number of rings (2) but was way more dominant at the time.
Sure, basketball is a team sport, and this is an individual honor, But still, when you are talking about the best of the best, rings matter, a lot.
All the other guys were team leaders on teams that have more Championships... except for Wilt, who has the same number of rings (2) but was way more dominant at the time.
Sure, basketball is a team sport, and this is an individual honor, But still, when you are talking about the best of the best, rings matter, a lot.
ryutaro's mama
Member
They're purely decorative.
Union Carbine
Member
I pretty much always feel like Dream never gets his due. Not sure where I'd put him on this list but it just reinforces what a shame it was that he lost so many years to craptacular Rockets teams.
I'm actually surprised he is that high. For the 90s, at least for me, he was the black market Jordan. He was absolutely incredible for his own scenario.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Wilt had the same inexplicable disease that currently affects Shaq: deep, deep insecurity in spite of being among the best to ever play. Wilt would make crazy claims. For instance, he would say he purposely missed his free throws just so he wouldn't be seen as perfect. Come on, brah. He was hugely insecure about being a dominant power player, so he took a shitload of fadeaways. He claimed to have slept with 20,000 women. He encouraged rumors that he could make change off the top of the backboard. And so on. It's weird to see someone so successful be so insecure.
Confrontation
Member
Of course he's not top 3. Also, every list with Wilt in the top 10 should not be taken seriously.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
I haven't looked at the stats in recent years, but for a 10 year stretch Kobe was mediocre at best in the clutch, and Lebron was surprisingly good. Kobe takes so many unnecessarily shitty shots that he's bound to make quite a few of them. If you only watch the highlights or fixate on these makes, he seems way better than he actually is, but when you look at the actual stats he becomes a much diminished player in this regard. Fortunately, Kobe is going to be regarded more and more poorly as time goes on because stats are becoming a much larger part of basketball.
In my view, Kobe is a bit of what-if -- he could've been so much more. He's a supremely skilled player who deserves a spot in the top 20, but he's a bit of a dipshit. A huge part of what made MJ good was that he would cheese the league with a limited set of high percentage moves. He had a smaller repertoire than Kobe, but you don't need 100 moves if 10 or 20 work all the time. Similarly, there's Shaq. If he gets you in deep, he's just going to dunk on you. If he's a bit further out, he'll go for a hook. If you deny the hook, he can drop step or go through you. And there's Kareem. His sky hook was a dominant move with either arm. Even if you deny it, his counter move is still high percentage. The point is, variety for the sake of variety means nothing. You only need to be unpredictable and versatile enough to score consistently and at a high percentage. If you can dominate the game by having two or three moves, then you should stick to those moves and only fall back on lower percentage shots when absolutely necessary. Kobe makes the game harder than it needs to be.
Gunslinger
Member
No kobe? OK sure. Shaq and the lakers would be nothing without kobe.
LBJ is a MUCH better defender than Magic
dragonyeuw
Member
Great post, if MJ has 7 moves and Kobe 10, MJ employed those moves in a smarter fashion, leading to more consistent scoring on better efficiency. MJ, especially as he evolved, rarely over-dribbled, and often when he caught the ball he immediately went into his move and made the defense react to him, as opposed to he reacting to it. Kobe is extremely skilled but often went into hero-ball mode with poor IQ shot-taking.
dragonyeuw
Member
And Magic was a much better orchestrator on offense, his style and passing/playmaking allowed even the most mediocre of roleplayers to have their shining moment in the showtime offense. Lebron can make a team with shooters around him go far, but pretty much any star player has to tailor or alter their games to fit with him. Happened with Wade, Bosh, and Love.
dragonyeuw
Member
I think Hakeem was a better 'player' peak to peak, as in I don't think Duncan was ever individually better than Hakeem was between 93 and 95. Duncan probably got the nod based on career achievements while being 'close' to him as an on-court presence. But Hakeem during the back to bakc, when MJ was retired..... man he was special.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Absolute joke. Apparently you are the 3rd best of all time if you are a complete loser in finals, like leBeta. He should be 9-10 for now with potential to hit 5-8 depending on what he wins.
I do not understand how you can put someone with such a horrible finals record and only two rings above many others that fare far far better. But hey, ESPN. :\
I do not understand how you can put someone with such a horrible finals record and only two rings above many others that fare far far better. But hey, ESPN. :\
are you serious? if so when did you start watching basketball? last season?
Curry isn´t even a Top 20 yet lmao
#3 is fair for Lebron, Kobe should be #2, and Jordan will always be the GOAT
AliasGreed
Member
Lebron is the improved version of Magic. He's basically the best at everything except pure shooting and clutch gene. That's were Jordan is superior to him. He's definitely top 5 player of all time.
soon
I think people that doubt Lebron being top 5 are just haters. I personally rank him 2. As someone who has seen well over 300 nba games in person, I like to think I have a decent perspective. I will say I struggle with Kareem because I remember watching him, but he was old. All the other greats I remember either in their prime or I only have stats, so Kareem is the only one I know I rank way too low.
I think a more fun exercise than ranking them is to build a best starting 5 to actually play together. I start with MJ, LBJ...and then there are so many options. I think next I take Shaq. For pg...Curry for his shooting? magic for everything? Or do you go with someone like Gary Payton, and watch GP, MJ, and LBJ just kill people on defense. For PF do you take Bird, Tim Duncan, or someone like Rodman. He'd be happy to never touch it on offense. Would get you so many extra possessions. And then you could really terrify people on defense.
I could debate that scenario forever, much more interesting than just ranking to me.
I think a more fun exercise than ranking them is to build a best starting 5 to actually play together. I start with MJ, LBJ...and then there are so many options. I think next I take Shaq. For pg...Curry for his shooting? magic for everything? Or do you go with someone like Gary Payton, and watch GP, MJ, and LBJ just kill people on defense. For PF do you take Bird, Tim Duncan, or someone like Rodman. He'd be happy to never touch it on offense. Would get you so many extra possessions. And then you could really terrify people on defense.
I could debate that scenario forever, much more interesting than just ranking to me.
Just an FYI Wade was nowhere near his prime when he played with Lebron. Miami pissed away his prime after Shaq left.
BadAss2961
Member
Angry Puppy
Member
it is debatable whether or not lebron is even in the top 17 players of all time
Really? I feel like this season more than ever we're seeing glimpses of what Old LeBron will look like on the court. Still smart, tough and efficient, but less explosive and his shot is more erratic.
Lol no it's not. He's definitely one of the 17 best players of all time. His stats, two championships, his ability to play multiple positions and completely dominate games. Come on...I'm not even a lebron supporter and I feel like I'm taking crazy pills right now.
Agree. Huge Lebron fan, but hes definitely slowing a bit physically. He'll be able to play at a high level forever with his body, intelligence and passing though.
LyleLanley
Banned
Lol, what are you talking about?
Diprosalic
Banned
sure bro.
Boombloxer
Member
Actually, the stretch and article you're talking about basically was every game included, period. That article had some flaws in it if I remember correctly, because it didn't actually weight the playoffs, which is where a lot of those heroics actually were. There's entire games on Youtube you can watch for the when's and where's, he doesn't get diminished at all, quite the opposite. He's the one that broke the Spurs most of the time, whether it was 2001 or 2008. He made the plays/bucket against Portland, buried the Suns, Kings, etc. Stats becoming a larger part of the game doesn't really change that certain shots matter more at different time than others.
We'll disagree here, largely because what-if's are fairly bullshit in general, if Iverson was less of a dipshit he might've been useful longer. If T-Mac was healthy...he still would've lost in the playoffs every year. If Shaq stayed, he and Kobe would have 6+ rings, etc. No real point to that.
However, I do agree that this is where going to college might've helped. The main difference I can note is that MJ knew the difference between a good and bad shot throughout his career, even if he shot badly here and there, most of the time, it was a decent percentage shot period.
Kobe has greater shot range across the board, and adding to that is the variety. That variety comes from facing a more athletic breed of player than MJ had to deal with, so combined with the greater range over literally 15 years of being one of the best in the league plus playing with one of the best centers of all time is going to lead to a different shot repertoire. MJ didn't have to worry about the post ever being clogged, nor guarded by a Kirilenko or Sefelosha or Allen or Bowen or LBJ or Tmac, etc. Throw all of those in, and yes, some of those shots are going to bad...except he still made quite a few of them, especially when the game was in contest.
Also, for the moves in general, that's not really true regarding a few moves in general, it's true for a few of the players you mentioned, but there's counter examples for big men and guards.
Most of that is footwork based for guards, like Reggie learning a few step-back moves, Kobe adding post moves or MJ adding a fadeaway. For big men, like Shaq or Barkley, they literally had 2 moves--variation drop-step or hard middle. They've mentioned this before. But there were plenty of other elite big men who had more of a variety, guys like Dream, Duncan and Gasol and McHale had way more of an arsenal still and used them when needed. That's not making the game harder, that's adapting to your competition, especially after you've beaten them and they've had nothing to do but study tape and train for you the next season.
No I grew up a Bulls fan, in Chicago, in the 90s. Curry's PER right now is higher than Michael Jordan's or anybody in Basketball history for that matter.
Olajuwon is a great player who never had half the support a lot of other teams had. Pippen is another highly underrated player from that time. Definitely a top 25.
Lebron might retire with 30,000 pts, 10000 rbs, and 10,000 ast. Only 11 other players are part of the 20,5,5 club. Let that sink in.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Eh, Kobe wasn't in his prime when he won two championships but he was still extremely effective.
Put it like this, Jordan's prime was during the 1st 3peat but he was still killing people during the 2nd one.
LeBron got Second 3Peat Wade and Prime Bosh.
You actually believe this, don't you?
Elfforkusu
Member
Above Magic? Hell no.
Advocatus Diaboli
Member
This is what I don't get. You'd think that sheer consistency, durability, being the "glue" that holds teams together -- while doing it on one leg -- would count for more. I guess if you were ranking players' careers rather than players, and if you thought that distinction mattered, you might throw Bron higher than Duncan, but at that point, you're arguing potential. Any GM/owner who could have Duncan for almost 20 years would take that over anyone else, right?
BadAss2961
Member
It's one season bro.
I like this quote from Shaq who is usually a really hubris guy. His beef with Pippen pissed me off. 'Scottina?' photoshopping Scottie Pippen's head on a woman's body? Saying Ron Harper was better? I hate the fact he's on their with Ernie, Kenny, and Charles Barkley. He totally just bullhorns his not funny humor.
ANYWAY, I digress. Shaq said this;
The Spurs win because of Tim Duncan, a guy I could never break. I could talk trash to Patrick Ewing, get in David Robinsons face, get a rise out of Alonzo Mourning, but when I went at Tim hed look at me like he was bored. Whenever I run into a Tim Duncan fan who will claim Tim Duncan is the GOAT, I wont disagree with him. - Shaquille ONeal
ANYWAY, I digress. Shaq said this;
The Spurs win because of Tim Duncan, a guy I could never break. I could talk trash to Patrick Ewing, get in David Robinsons face, get a rise out of Alonzo Mourning, but when I went at Tim hed look at me like he was bored. Whenever I run into a Tim Duncan fan who will claim Tim Duncan is the GOAT, I wont disagree with him. - Shaquille ONeal
dragonyeuw
Member
Some of that is true, but then I've seen Kobe launch from 30 feet single covered with the defender sagging off him. That constitutes a dumb shot. And MJ faced athletic defenders in his day as well, Michael Cooper, young Rodman, Reggie Lewis, Sprewell, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, prime Penny and Hill. Interestingly enough, Ron Artest is on record as saying MJ was the toughest cover he ever faced, and considering Artest came into the league in 99, his experience with MJ would have been the 40 year old Wizards version. That's telling, considering Artest's prime would have coincided with just about every major perimeter talent of the past 15 years. Also bearing in mind that MJ, even as a Wizard, had great individual success and numbers being guarded by the likes of Shawn Marion and Garnett.
AngmarsKing701
Member
I'm waiting for bionic to show up and argue that Pippen was better than Jordan.
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