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[Zaphrynn]

These events are for educating women and promoting and fostering growth for women by women. When you invite everyone, then you inevitably get the well meaning man who decides his opinions are either just as valid, or more valid, than the women who are there. Then it becomes less about what women can do for each other to help them grow in the industry, and more about "Well gee I don't think that's the RIGHT way to do that" or "Oh whoa now, not all guys do that. Have you considered *blank*?" It takes the conversation away from women.

And there is an absolute comfort and comradely that women rarely get in large spaces that comes with these events. They are encouraging, you feel more at ease talking about your experiences (and having people not only believe you, but empathize because they've been there in a way men haven't), and you get the support of your group, uninterrupted. These places aren't about what's best for everyone ever, or what will promote 100% equality. They are about women and getting women involved in the industry or community. I have been to a women-centric event about promoting women in tech, and it was absolutely refreshing and amazing. I didn't have to have my guards up. I didn't have to defend myself or my experiences. I didn't have to prove myself. That is such an amazing and rare feeling in this industry.

And no shit promoting something as a women's space will get harassment. What's the point of even bringing this up? That women Altos do this in secret? That it shouldn't exist at all? Anything a minority does to promote themselves or better their group gets shit flung at them.

 

[JeTmAn81]

for the inevitable, sex sells person:
https://news.illinois.edu/blog/view/6367/522402

One study isn't enough to make a definitive conclusion. The next one might well contradict it completely (see minimum wage effects in Seattle for a recent example of this). I'm inclined to think that the common wisdom is correct. Sex does sell. Perhaps not for all products or in all contexts, but there's something there.

 

[Velkyn]

This hobby is disgusting really.

Yup, gamers are trash.

 

[Budi]

I agree, it's completely disgusting, but there are countries where it is WAY worse. Spain is one of the most advanced european countries in that regard, and I think that's thanks to the big deal the made out of these crimes in the news.

I live in France and the sexism is over the roof here, women in their 30s that aren't married or with kids are a disgrace for them, there is also very narrowminded views in terms of hobbies they can do, clothes they have to wear, to name some examples.

Whoa, honestly kinda surprised and immensely disappointed to see Finland so high on the list. Though Finns do have huge problems with alcohol and that ofcourse also leads into violence in many forms. But could this also be because Finland has always been the frontrunner in women's rights and in gender equality in modern day. That Finnish women feel more safe about talking and reporting the abuse, since there are better services and safe nets for them? I'm truly surprised by that study, if I'd had to guess the three countries with the highest percent are the ones I'd assume to be the lowest.

 

[Galava]

PRIVATE EVENT PRIVATE EVENT PRIVATE EVENT PRIVATE EVENT.

I can, if I want, make an event of people with names that begin with the letter A, or people born in 1984, or people with blue hair. It's a private event, you can do whatever the hell you want, the same way you can do whatever the hell you want at your home.

A private event at your house you can invite whoever you want,but if it's in a public space (doesn't matter if it's closed doors for that day, as long as it's open to the public), you cannot differentiate by gender, sex, race...whatever. As Dragner posted, Article 14 states full equality in all aspects.

They can organize a female-only event, but then it must be at a private location afaik.

Still, this is only aplicable in these provinces it seems: Andalucía, Canarias, Cataluña, Navarra, Madrid, Comunidad Valenciana, Islas Baleares, La Rioja, País Vasco y Asturias.

This event was in Catalunya, so yeah, it can be applied if someone called the police.

 

[Bahorel]

Funnily enough, somebody else tried making the same point earlier. "Trying to make it about myself" unbelievable. I used 1 anecdote when someone called me White priveliged and fragile. So who turned decided to turn this on me?

I mean tbh you came in here to defend a group of men instead of discussing women so you kind of threw yourself into said position

 

[Jotaka]

This hobby is disgusting really.

that what happens when the most members are heavy hormone infused young organisms.

 

[Bobo Dakes]

"It's sexist because it's totes unequal!!! Should include everyone!"

There, I answered this one and saved some time.

You're defining that under the assumption that both groups were treated equally to begin with.

 

[MKIL65]

Though Finns do have huge problems with alcohol and that ofcourse also leads into violence in many forms.

All nordic countries have this problem, which is why Denmark and Sweden is at the top too.

That chart is from 2012, but I doubt things have changed dramatically in the last 5 years.

 

[Messofanego]

These events are for educating women and promoting and fostering growth for women by women. When you invite everyone, then you inevitably get the well meaning man who decides his opinions are either just as valid, or more valid, than the women who are there. Then it becomes less about what women can do for each other to help them grow in the industry, and more about "Well gee I don't think that's the RIGHT way to do that" or "Oh whoa now, not all guys do that. Have you considered *blank*?" It takes the conversation away from women.

And there is an absolute comfort and comradely that women rarely get in large spaces that comes with these events. They are encouraging, you feel more at ease talking about your experiences (and having people not only believe you, but empathize because they've been there in a way men haven't), and you get the support of your group, uninterrupted. These places aren't about what's best for everyone ever, or what will promote 100% equality. They are about women and getting women involved in the industry or community. I have been to a women-centric event about promoting women in tech, and it was absolutely refreshing and amazing. I didn't have to have my guards up. That is such an amazing feeling.

And no shit promoting something as a women's space will get harassment. What's the point of even bringing this up? That women Altos do this in secret? That it shouldn't exist at all? Anything a minority does to promote themselves or better their group gets shit flung at them.

Well said.

 

[Heysoos]

that what happens when the most members are heavy hormone infused young organisms.

Nah, it's not just teenagers being assholes.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

A private event at your house you can invite whoever you want,but if it's in a public space (doesn't matter if it's closed doors for that day, as long as it's open to the public), you cannot differentiate by gender, sex, race...whatever. As Dragner posted, Article 14 states full equality in all aspects.

Sure you can. You rent a venue, you have a birthday party, you only invite women no one is going to shut you down on the basis of discrimination. You won't win that case if you take it to court because private assembly allows for discrimination. You just can't highlight the discrimination of a protected class as the point.

These things don't get in trouble because they cant exist. They get in trouble because when protected classes were created it was to disallow blatant bad faith discrimination against vulnerable people. Everyone knows this but with the shift of society vulnerable people now have more power and the ability to congregate and celebrate or empower themselves and most law wasn't codified for that reason even though if it was drafted now it totally would. Organizers aren'y necessarily lawyers or well versed in law though so they dont know exactly how to get around this or remove their vulnerability.

But that is different. This is literally just assholes being assholes and trying to incite the law for something it wasn't designed to handle. But you can entirely get around this with planning.

 

[MsVariant]

One study isn't enough to make a definitive conclusion. The next one might well contradict it completely (see minimum wage effects in Seattle for a recent example of this). I'm inclined to think that the common wisdom is correct. Sex does sell. Perhaps not for all products or in all contexts, but there's something there.

The Seattle minimum wage research is just garbage. It completely ignores the reality that it was the people in charge of those companies that decided to reduce staff and hours in order to maintain their profit margins over supporting their employees. Pure corporate greed.

On the other hand, I'm not asking you to fundamentally change your stance on the subject but instead to be skeptical when someone tells you sex sells. As in my personal experience, highly sexualized ads make me less interested not more.

 

[Velkyn]

You're defining that under the assumption that both groups were treated equally to begin with.

I should have included an /s there, I thought the multiple exclamation marks and quotation marks were enough.

I absolutely do not believe a woman-only gaming event is sexist.

 

[psychowave]

One study isn't enough to make a definitive conclusion. The next one might well contradict it completely (see minimum wage effects in Seattle for a recent example of this). I'm inclined to think that the common wisdom is correct. Sex does sell. Perhaps not for all products or in all contexts, but there's something there.

Hence why it's a meta-study.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

Absolutely disgusting and as other have said, shows how much events like these are needed. Everyone involved in getting this event canceled are an embarrassment on every level.

 

[Dragner]

"It's sexist because it's totes unequal!!! Should include everyone!"

There, I answered this one and saved some time.

From the oxford diccionary

'Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.'

Here you have it, even if it says typically it doesnt say exclusively, so stop being so funny with serious stuff.

 

[Rayderism]

Pretty sad that uptight people can't let the ladies have their game day.

 

[psychowave]

From the oxford diccionary

'Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.'

Here you have it, even if it says typically it doesnt say exclusively, so stop being so funny with serious stuff.

Please teach us more about sexism Andrea Dworkin

 

[rjcc]

One study isn't enough to make a definitive conclusion. The next one might well contradict it completely (see minimum wage effects in Seattle for a recent example of this). I'm inclined to think that the common wisdom is correct. Sex does sell. Perhaps not for all products or in all contexts, but there's something there.

"something"

There is something there.

Ad agencies being run by men.

That's the something.

 

[JeTmAn81]

The Seattle minimum wage research is just garbage. It completely ignores the reality that it was the people in charge of those companies that decided to reduce staff and hours in order to maintain their profit margins over supporting their employees. Pure corporate greed.

On the other hand, I'm not asking you to fundamentally change your stance on the subject but instead to be skeptical when someone tells you sex sells. As in my personal experience, highly sexualized ads make me less interested not more.

I would probably be about as doubtful of someone who said "sex always sells" as I would of someone who said "sex never sells". I would also surmise that when sex does sell, it's almost exclusively to men.

 

[Velkyn]

A private event at your house you can invite whoever you want,but if it's in a public space (doesn't matter if it's closed doors for that day, as long as it's open to the public), you cannot differentiate by gender, sex, race...whatever. As Dragner posted, Article 14 states full equality in all aspects.

They can organize a female-only event, but then it must be at a private location afaik.

Still, this is only aplicable in these provinces it seems: Andalucía, Canarias, Cataluña, Navarra, Madrid, Comunidad Valenciana, Islas Baleares, La Rioja, País Vasco y Asturias.

This event was in Catalunya, so yeah, it can be applied if someone called the police.

I rent a restaurant for a private party. Someone is turned away from the door for not being part of my reservation.

You're arguing that this is discrimination? Because this is exactly what this event was. You are free to assemble where you wish in a public space. When a church is closed for a wedding, go try crying to a human rights tribunal because you don't have an invite.

 

[Galava]

Sure you can. You rent a venue, you have a birthday party, you only invite women no one is going to shut you down on the basis of discrimination. You won't win that case if you take it to court because private assembly allows for discrimination. You just can't highlight the discrimination of a protected class as the point.

In this case, I forgot to mention, takes place on "King Offices". It still applies. It does not apply on: Private family and social events (private parties), protest reunions and religious activities.

I'm just saying that it's not that simple as saying "i don't want these guys to come" when making an open public event.

 

[Budi]

All nordic countries have this problem, which is why Denmark and Sweden is at the top too.

That chart is from 2012, but I doubt things have changed dramatically in the last 5 years.

Yeah I guess, just really shocked about this. I've always felt Finland to be on the better half of being progressive and equal. But ofcourse just because state sets laws and regulations doesn't mean the bigger population is as progressive. And as I stated earlier, alcohol is huge problem in Finland with the health issues, violence and accidents it brings.

Also I think that the bubble that I grew up in surrounded by many different women, has blinded me from the outside reality a bit. Though I really should have seen it by now.

 

[luffeN]

Damn, that is pathetic. About 15? years ago a girl at a party said to me after talking with her for about 5 minutes "You are a nice gamer." At the time I thought how strange that statement was but it seems that even then this was an issue.

 

[Galava]

I rent a restaurant for a private party. Someone is turned away from the door for not being part of my reservation.

You're arguing that this is discrimination? Because this is exactly what this event was. You are free to assemble where you wish in a public space. When a church is closed for a wedding, go try crying to a human rights tribunal because you don't have an invite.

No, because you are not allowing that person for not having an invitation, not for being a woman or a man.

This event was "open and free". If they sold invitations to a private event, yeah, no problem there I think.

 

[Joey Ravn]

A private event at your house you can invite whoever you want,but if it's in a public space (doesn't matter if it's closed doors for that day, as long as it's open to the public), you cannot differentiate by gender, sex, race...whatever. As Dragner posted, Article 14 states full equality in all aspects.

They can organize a female-only event, but then it must be at a private location afaik.

King Barcelona is a private space, owned by King. It's not a public space. You cannot barge into the office of a company and demand access because you want to be there. If you think you can, go ahead and do it. Be sure to report back with the results, though.

That being said, that article applies to commercial businesses, not private meetings organized by individuals. These people weren't selling their wares in a shop, nor it was a show meant for public display, so the "right to enter" their space without being invited is non-existent.

I'm eager to see what will be the next "gotcha!" in this long line of "b-b-but they are the real sexists!!!" arguments. No, honestly: I just don't know what some of you will come up with.

No, because you are not allowing that person for not having an invitation, not for being a woman or a man.

This event was "open and free". If they sold invitations to a private event, yeah, no problem there I think.

The event was "open and free" for women only. Just like those people weren't invited to the private party, men weren't invited to the meeting. They would have been turned away for not having an invitation in both cases.

 

[Dragner]

Please teach us more about sexism Andrea Dworkin

Im not here to teach anything, but if you cant see sexism in an event placed at a public space where they turned you back from being man then theres nothing more I can do, the sad thing is that if the event was men only nobody would deny that.

 

[Velkyn]

No, because you are not allowing that person for not having an invitation

Right, and in this case, you don't have an invitation. /thread

 

[Galava]

King Barcelona is a private space, owned by King. It's not a public space. You cannot barge into the office of a company and demand access because you want to be there. If you think you can, go ahead and do it. Be sure to report back with the results, though.

That being said, that article applies to commercial businesses, not private meetings organized by individuals. These people weren't selling their wares in a shop, nor it was a show meant for public display, so the "right to enter" their space without being invited is non-existent.

I'm eager to see what will be the next "gotcha!" in this long line of "b-b-but they are the real sexists!!!" arguments. No, honestly: I just don't know what some of you will come up with.

I wasn't really arguing anything, just mentioning how it seems to work here, not really critizising anyone.

Ws trying to be objective with my comments and discuss how the law might be wrong or right, god, they are free to do whatever they want if you ask me.

 

[Velkyn]

Im not ehre to teach anything, but if you cant see sexism in an event palced at a public space where they turned you back from being man then theres nothing I more I can do, the sad thing is that if the event was men only nobody would deny that.

It's not sexism because men don't have a centuries-long history of unfair and unequal treatment at the hands of women.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

In this case, I forgot to mention, takes place on "King Offices". It still applies. It does not apply on: Private family and social events (private parties), protest reunions and religious activities.

I'm just saying that it's not that simple as saying "i don't want these guys to come" when making an open public event.

They can advertise this as a private party or social event. I mean jesus it is a private aocial event. A party can be anything as long as you frame it properly. It is less about what you are doing and who you are letting in and way more about how you are framing your gathering.

 

[psychowave]

Im not ehre to teach anything, but if you cant see sexism in an event palced at a public space where they turned you back from being man then theres nothing I more I can do, the sad thing is that if the event was men only nobody would deny that.

It costs $0 to stop being a misogynist and read through the thread to see people explaining why these events are important.

No, the sad thing is that you saw a group of men saying "hey let's dress up as tr*nnies to harass these fat ugly feminazis" and instead of worrying about that decided to argue about the legality of female-only events.

 

[blankslatenator]

WHITE KNIGHTS ASSSSEEEEMMBLE!

 

[Joey Ravn]

I wasn't really arguing anything, just mentioning how it seems to work here, not really critizising anyone.

You could have fooled me. I almost thought you were defending the manly men of ForoCoches against these wicked women who didn't want them to join their all-girl party, those sexists. Glad to see you're here just to impose some much needed egalitarism.

Spoiler

/s

WHITE KNIGHTS ASSSSEEEEMMBLE!

*yawn*

I'm sure this would've gone over well if it was males only.

Oh, wow. You're the first one to float that idea! Amazing.

Hint: there's no need for male-only gaming gatherings, since the vast majority of conventions and gaming-related meetings are de facto male-only.

 

[synce]

I'm sure this would've gone over well if it was males only.

 

[psychowave]

WHITE KNIGHTS ASSSSEEEEMMBLE!

a man: men only show concern for women because they want sex in exchange
same man, probably: NOT ALL MEN

I'm sure this would've gone over well if it was males only.

it would because no one would've been harassed yeah

 

[Budi]

I'm sure this would've gone over well if it was males only.

Yeah it probably would have, too bad it didn't go so well when it was women.

 

[hodgy100]

I'm sure this would've gone over well if it was males only.

if it were a male only event for males in a female dominated activity getting together so that they could show appreciation for the activity without getting abuse by women. then I'd be fine with it.

theres a context here. stop ignoring it.

 

[Rookhelm]

Sports fans: 2 questions for you:




Do female-only Fantasy Leagues exist?


If so, do male sports fans give a shit?

 

[Psyrgery ES]

I agree, it's completely disgusting, but there are countries where it is WAY worse. Spain is one of the most advanced european countries in that regard, and I think that's thanks to the big deal the made out of these crimes in the news.

I live in France and the sexism is over the roof here, women in their 30s that aren't married or with kids are a disgrace for them, there is also very narrowminded views in terms of hobbies they can do, clothes they have to wear, to name some examples.

Also, almost 50% of all crimes commited against women here in Spain so far have been commited by foreigners (was 45% last time I checked)

 

[Jotaka]

WHITE KNIGHTS ASSSSEEEEMMBLE!

Bye.

 

[psychowave]

Also, almost 50% of all crimes commited against women here in Spain so far have been commited by foreigners (was 45% last time I checked)

Source pls

 

[Dragner]

It costs $0 to stop being a misogynist and read through the thread to see people explaining why these events are important.

No, the sad thing is that you saw a group of men saying "hey let's dress up as tr*nnies to harass these fat ugly feminazis" and instead of worrying about that decided to argue about the legality of female-only events.

In fact the event was against spanish constitution that state that you cant deny access to public events by cause of race, gender or sexual orientation.

The event was sexist but harassing the organizers wasnt the way.

I can say it again, Im against harasment of the organizers of the event, that people is scum. But I wont stop saying that the event was illegal because of that.

 

[JadedWriter]

That seems to be a common theme across geek culture in regards to many things.

Right now there's nazi furries making an effort to shut down a furry convention.

That's disgusting. Why the heck do these "gamers" have to be so hateful and inclusive? Regarding the furry thing...it sounds like an anime plot.

 

[Velkyn]

I'm sure this would've gone over well if it was males only.

Well I can certainly bet you that there wouldn't be a group of women trying to harass the event into closing.

 

[psychowave]

I can say it again, Im against harasment of the organizers of the event, that people is scum. But I wont stop saying that the event was illegal because of that.

Please read a book about sexism that is longer than a fucking definition you googled in 3 seconds. If you're Spanish, I've heard that Barbijaputa's latest book is an excellent introduction to the subject.

 

[sol740]

The Seattle minimum wage research is just garbage. It completely ignores the reality that it was the people in charge of those companies that decided to reduce staff and hours in order to maintain their profit margins over supporting their employees. Pure corporate greed.

Not to go off on a tangent, but corporations exist to make profit for their owner's, not provide living wage to low-skill workers easily replaced by iPads. The studies aren't nefariously ignoring anything because opponents always posited that employer's would scramble to offset costs if forced to pay that much for a warm body and a smile, it was the expected result for many.

Back on topic, I kind of wish the event would have hired some kind of security for the parking and event, and continued on as scheduled, because the POS got exactly what they wanted. I also understand how sad it is that security detail even be necessary at all, but I think it's better than just shutting everything down.

 

[Rookhelm]

I can say it again, Im against harasment of the organizers of the event, that people is scum. But I wont stop saying that the event was illegal because of that.

If the law allowed it, would you be okay with it? or are you against the idea more on principle?

 

[JeTmAn81]

It's not sexism because men don't have a centuries-long history of unfair and unequal treatment at the hands of women.

I think it's a mistake to lay the evils of the past at the feet of the people of today. True, we're all inexorably affected by what came before, but someone who is born into privilege didn't ask for that any more than someone who wasn't born with privilege. Yes, we all have to deal with where we're at and how we got there, but we need to stop short of blaming people for things they didn't do.

I believe that's where some of the backlash for things like this comes from. I don't think there would've been the same kind of negative response if it was a women-centric event, rather than a women-exclusive event. The exclusivity feels like laying blame on men for what other men have done. It's not exactly fair for men to feel that way in light of an event like this and the lack of acceptance and opportunity for women in games, but there it is.

It also doesn't excuse the fact that criticism in this case came in the form of vitriol and cruelty. The source of that behavior is another issue.