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Final Fantasy XV Hands-On Demo (Chapter 0-3) Previews

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Teletraan1

Banned
You don't even get full control over your party. A car is the last thing we should be complaining about. My take is that it is for some people the car or any other vehicle should be fully controlled by the player. SE seems hell bent on automating everything in this game to appeal to people who don't like these games. While I don't know if it has the desired effect of luring in people who don't like these games I do know that the constant handholding and automation is driving me away from these games. If you would have got in an Airship in the old games and it would have just auto flown you to the next town I don't really think that would have been a great experience. In fact in games where the Airship was just a menu (FFX-2) there were nothing but complaints about it. Person who has few hours to play games might not be as bothered.
 

chozen

Member
What happens when you're out of the car though? What if a monster attacked and ended up destroying the car while the party was still alive? Would you still get a game over? The airship game over makes sense because the party would be killed in the crash.

The enemy AI probably wouldn't direct them to the car tbh.

IDK if a huge explosion would do something either.
 

Nerokis

Member
I don't think there's anything immersive about a game with a roadtrip theme driving the car for me.

Well, I mean, being on a road trip often means stretches of downtime where all you're doing is sitting back, taking in the sights, and waiting to reach your destination. It would definitely be nice for manual mode to offer a basically smooth driving experience, but driving the car isn't a prerequisite to an immersive road trip experience at all. That's especially true when every other thematic element supports your character typically being driven around, and there are mechanics in place to make being a passenger interesting.
 
I don't think there's anything immersive about a game with a roadtrip theme driving the car for me.

So you've never gone on a road trip where you were the passenger? I don't mean that to be snark. There's a lot of discussion in here that no free roam with full car control is contra the spirit of the road trip.

But all my road trips have been largely linear A to B affairs, often while I'm in the passenger seat. Sure there are interesting sidetracks, which it seems XV will have too, but what I remember are the interactions with my traveling companions along the way.

Would obviously be better to have a more smoothly controlling car, but I don't see how any of this antithetical to a game built around a road trip.
 
Who needs the car im walking dragons dogma style.
I'll call hammer head to bring me the car to mu location.

How many times do we need to remind everyone about the purpose of chocobos?
 

Teletraan1

Banned
So you've never gone on a road trip where you were the passenger? I don't mean that to be snark. There's a lot of discussion in here that no free roam with full car control is contra the spirit of the road trip.

But all my road trips have been largely linear A to B affairs, often while I'm in the passenger seat. Sure there are interesting sidetracks, which it seems XV will have too, but what I remember are the interactions with my traveling companions along the way.

Would obviously be better to have a more smoothly controlling car, but I don't see how any of this antithetical to a game built around a road trip.

The medium of video games is meant to be played. Expecting gameplay out of a video game is not a big stretch.
 
Who needs the car im walking dragons dogma style.
I'll call hammer head to bring me the car to mu location.

How many times do we need to remind everyone about the purpose of chocobos?
Bruh lol you're a walker? God speed. Have you seen duscae demo that was only a portion of that one region. Chocobo riding with the chocobros all day
 
Who needs the car im walking dragons dogma style.
I'll call hammer head to bring me the car to mu location.

How many times do we need to remind everyone about the purpose of chocobos?

Who cares about chocobos, I just want my GTA car mobility in place so I can travel off road and smash my ride into some trees! /sarcasm
 

Nerokis

Member
The medium of video games is meant to be played. Expecting gameplay out of a video game is not a big stretch.

Nope. But saying you need to drive the car for the road trip experience to be immersive definitely is.

If we're going to make WoW comparisons, I'll say this: riding the zeppelin from point A to point B is much more immersive than riding a flying mount wherever. :p
 
The medium of video games is meant to be played. Expecting gameplay out of a video game is not a big stretch.

I see video games as a vehicle for both narrative and play. I may overvalue narrative in comparison to many here, but it's inarguably part of gaming's DNA. The way it sounds now, the car in XV serves as a moving cutscene, progressing plot and allowing character interaction. The meaningful gameplay happens once you get out.

Final Fantasy has always relied on dressed up cutscenes to move the plot, and this has never bothered me.

Narratively, they want to set the game up as a road trip. The car does that whether you can off-road or drift or whatever.

Sure, would be nice if it's a smoother experience though.

Perhaps also worth noting that the classic FF traversal progression is from no freedom, to limited freedom, to unfettered freedom. We know the car gets upgraded, so perhaps that progression is reprised here.
 

Ran rp

Member
You don't even get full control over your party. A car is the last thing we should be complaining about. My take is that it is for some people the car or any other vehicle should be fully controlled by the player. SE seems hell bent on automating everything in this game to appeal to people who don't like these games. While I don't know if it has the desired effect of luring in people who don't like these games I do know that the constant handholding and automation is driving me away from these games. If you would have got in an Airship in the old games and it would have just auto flown you to the next town I don't really think that would have been a great experience. Person who has few hours to play games might not be as bothered.

What's a little worrying is the article I first read about these issues in said these design choices extend beyond the car.

https://www.vg247.com/2016/08/16/fi...nderful-and-definitely-in-need-of-that-delay/

I see a gigantic Iron Giant enemy in the middle of the road and try to ram him. Instead the AI pulls me over and kicks me out to engage in regular combat. When enemies are aggroed you can’t enter the car even to try to make a hasty escape, so I have to run away and pay 100 gil to have the car warped back to me. Open but not.

I didn’t mind all this, to be honest. Even the older FFs aren’t as open as rose-tinted memories lead you to believe, but this is still a jarring choice and one I can see frustrating a lot more casual players used to other games with open-world driving. It’s strange.

There’s lots of this in FF15, and this is where it reminds me of Shenmue: It has this wild, bravely broad focus but in doing so is also a little plodding and methodical in its execution. Sometimes these things work and other times they don’t.

Changing clothes, taking photos of your adventures, characters getting muddy from fighting, buying new CDs for your car, the hugely detailed food menu at camps and the sheer number of tiny additional gameplay mechanics and touches showcase an attention to world detail that evokes the sense of wonder Shenmue gave me. The clunky and restrictive car mechanics remind me of the other, plodding side of Shenmue. If the game suddenly asked Noctis to man a Lucky Hit kiosk for a couple of hours, I’d hardly be surprised.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, for the record: Shenmue failed to find a market but is also one of the most interesting and ambitious games ever made, and maybe FF15 can do better with this breadth where it failed. I’m left interested how its many ideas will hold up over the course of a full game.

Who cares about chocobos, I just want my GTA car mobility in place so I can travel off road and smash my ride into some trees! /sarcasm

Why do you even post? You add nothing to the discussion.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
gotta get someone who's at gamescom to drive around at night and park next to the iron giant (assuming you can do that at gamescom, which I am since it was in the 50min video)

FOR SCIENCE

I see a gigantic Iron Giant enemy in the middle of the road and try to ram him. Instead the AI pulls me over and kicks me out to engage in regular combat. When enemies are aggroed you can’t enter the car even to try to make a hasty escape, so I have to run away and pay 100 gil to have the car warped back to me. Open but not.

Oh.
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
Who cares about chocobos, I just want my GTA car mobility in place so I can travel off road and smash my ride into some trees! /sarcasm

Come on, man. I get you think everyone is out there wishing this game will fail (they're not, btw) but this sort of attitude needs to stop.
 

Mik317

Member
people who are bothered by the car...what do you want? Lets say you had "full" control...but was still restricted to the roads and virtually all you could do is go from point a to point b.....is that much of a change?

again it would be nice but at the end of the day, the idea is to cruise with the characters and listen to the interactions...that is legit the whole point, the whole vibe the game is going for. I am honestly surprised you even get to drive it really. Its open world but not, that has seemed to be the idea Tabata has been presenting for a while, no? The Car is a way to travel in between the connected zones...which until later, is rather restrictive to keep you on track. It is basically similar to FFVII's various modes of transport...didn't really open up until later.

This game was never going to be about go anywhere you want, anyway you can. It is still going to be rather linear the difference being in the various zones, there will be multiple things one can do at their own leisure.

I am seriously struglling to find why people are upset here. If it controls bad or is too slow and boring....sure. But as it stands, it sounds like a method of going for point to point with the option of getting out and doin shit if something along the way tickles your fancy. ...i.e a Roadtrip.; something with a start and an end but often sprinkled about the journey.

but I want to know what you guys thought it would be...because I am very confused.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
I know it sounds inflammatory but I have to be honest: No, I didn't. And I don't think it was because of me or because of my unwillingness to accept the game's merits, strenths and weaknesses but because several of its technical and gameplay pillars are fundamentally badly designed and thought out. I have to give one big caveat though: I skipped the cutscenes because I didn't want to spoil me too much but what I saw from the screens next to me the pre-rendered cutscenes looked fucking gorgeous. But first I really want to dispel one thing:



This is absolutely 100% false. Those screenshots convey very accurately what the game actually looks like while exploring, running and driving around. This is how Final Fantasy XV's open world looks like when there's no motion blur and flashy effects from fight scenes, running on a PS4. The framerate seemed like it was a pretty steady 30fps, which is obviously a big step up from Episode Duscae and very likely the reason the game looks so much worse even compared to the demo.

But to get to my more important points:

I feel like there are three big pillars to this game:

1) Driving around (The Road Trip pillar)

2) Fighting (The Final Fantasy & Action Game pillar)

3) Exploring, Questing, Looting (The Open World pillar)

I have huge problems with each one. Let's start with my biggest disappointemnt from this demo:

1) The Driving feels bad, lacks interactivity and betrays what a road trip is about

When I think of the concept of a road trip I think about freedom. About driving around unshackled from any boundaries and obligations, about exploring unknown territory, about going out of your comfort zone. In contrast to all of these concepts FF XV takes all control away from you when you drive. Even when you choose to control the game "manually" you:
-can't leave the road
-can't turn the wheel more than a few cm, while you snap back to your previous position the second you let go from the analogue stick
-can't drive fast
-can't exit the car wherever you want (kinda, but not exactly)
-can't take corners the way you want, the game automatically breaks, even if you pull the Gas button as far as you can

You are basically on a fixed track and you have to hold R2 to keep on driving on that fixed track. Whenever an intersection comes up you hold in the direction you want to drive and the game does the rest for you. When you want to make a U-Turn you just press Square and the game automatically does a U-Turn for you. There is no way for you to do this yourself since you can't actually steer away from the road in front of you. Even if there's a huge, long, endless straight in front of you Noctis will not drive with more than what feels like 15 mp/h, no matter how much you just want to race to your next waypoint. This means that driving long distances takes WAY too long with no way to skip to the end (at least in the demo I played), even in Automatic mode. When I hold X to exit the car, they don't immediatly do it but instead drive a few meters further to a predetermint point where the game allows me to stop. After that, the screen turns black and I stand outside of the car.

Nothing works as you'd expect it to work, nothing feels good, you are never in control and the black screen seems completely unnecessary and betrays the seamless transition they were going for originally.

Your Number 1 method of transportation feels like garbage and isn't fun in the slightest.

2) The Fighting System couples the action of Character Action games with the control responsiveness of JRPGs. It doesn't go well.

The controls are incredibly sluggish and unresponsiv, even at a steady framerate. Since you have to hold the circle button to attack you can't accurately control each strike. It's not intuitively noticable when one attack started or the next one ended. You never know 100% if you already queued up the next hit or not.

At the same time the fast paced fighting demands the accuracy of a Character Action game. You should not attack enemies when they block you, you should block when enemies attack you. Since you do not have complete control over your character and instead just tell him which NPD to attack instead of actively attacking him yourself, this demanded accuracy seems unnecessarily frustrating to achieve.

The developers also didn't think about several fundamentals of the Action game genre and instead had to work around them with stopgap solutions. The biggest example to me is the utter lack of noticable enemy tells. The best character action games achieve a perfect balance of letting the player know when and how an enemies is about to attack while also demanding great reflexes and the knowledge of how to counter said attack. An obvious example would be the red flashe some enemies in Metal Gear Rising display shortly before attacking. This red flash always means the same and is an established part of the ruleset.

In FFXV everything explodes in effects and characters since 3 of your companions share the screen with you most of the time while you often fight against 3, 4 or 5 small enemies at the same time, making it utterly impossible to actually notice any tells from any of the enemie NPCs. So what did Square Enix do?

The put a Huge "GUARD! USE SQUARE!" tooltip up everytime an enemie attacks with an attack you could parry. Instead of actually working on the issue the built a ugly workaround, removing any learning curve and finesse inherent in actually learning an enemie's behaviour. With big enemies there comes a new problem of actually not knowing what is an attack and what's just movement. You don't really know what hurts you and what doesn't.

And don't even get me started on their solution to "Oh Jesus, no one knows what's going on during these battles, what should we do?" Just PAUSE them? Are you serious? That's like building a terrible shooter where no one hits anything and instead of working on the AI or the controls you just tell your players to pause the game and move the crosshair over your enemie's head in that time.


3.) Exploring the open world is tedious and straight-up not fun

I could go on and on about this point (oh my god using the car is seriously such a fucking chore) but this post is already way too long so I just want to give you one perfect example of how badly thought out almost every aspect of this game is:

I drove on a street when I heard a scream from somewhere and a new side quest popped up. A hunter needed help! I wanted to help him...but the game didn't actually tell me where I should go to do that. The game registered the side quest. It marked it in my Quest Log. And I could even get a waypoint! But not just like that - I had to put in some work. And, honestly? This feels so obviously unintuitive and easy to fix that I think I probably missed a button here. If that's the case, please correct me and I will quote you as soon as I see it. But I tried and tried and didn't find a way. So what did I have to do?

Well, I was driving in my car - and while driving I couldn't access my Skill Menu or Quest Log anymore. The options were gone from the Start Menu. I could only open my map. I had to get out of the car to be able to access the Quest Log. This was the process:

- Getting the sidequest notification
- Holding X to stop the Car
- Waiting for the Car to stop further down the road for no discernible reason
- Getting a Black Screen while my characters left the car.
- Accessing the Quest Log
- Marking the Side Quest as active
- Leaving the Quest Log
- Getting back in the car
- Turning around
- Slooowly accelerating and driving back to the point where I got the notification and go from there

For whatever reason I could only ever track one quest on my mini map. This sounds like a small thing but in an open world game where such notifications hit by the minute, making me leave me car slooooowly only to be able to tell the game to allow me to approach the activity while I could have done so way easier while actually already sitting in my car is a completely unnecessary obstacle between me and my desire to explore the world.

I would go in further detail but just imagine a really ugly Dragon Age: Inquisition and you got the picture.

Disappointed that the battle system still had all the issues from the demos. I really don't like the button holding to attack aspect, the lack of responsiveness and telegraphing of enemy attacks. Also regular encounters just seem so tedious and slow as enemies can come in swarm, like a Musou game.

Blah.
 
PSY・S;214054953 said:
What's a little worrying is the article I first read about these issues in said these design choices extend beyond the car.

https://www.vg247.com/2016/08/16/fi...nderful-and-definitely-in-need-of-that-delay/





Why do you even post? You add nothing to the discussion.


I can say the same for everyone who feels the need to take any little aspect of FFXV, turn it into a negative and then blow it up because that's the cool thing to do on gaf. Anything positive must be canceled with a completely blown up "negative". From the battle system, to the graphics, to the story, to cidney, to having free control on a 2 freaking lane road LOL. I just don't understand why people bother adding their continuous dislike for the game. I can already predict super low user scores from the "fan base", because people can't get over the fact that Nomura is no longer running the show, and people WANT this game to fail.

That's my rant. I'll try to take it easy and just sit back as I eagerly wait for this delayed game. People can't fool me, their so called criticism are really just bandwagon stop and bash posts :)
 

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
I can say the same for everyone who feels the need to take any little aspect of FFXV, turn it into a negative and then blow it up because that's the cool thing to do on gaf. Anything positive must be canceled with a completely blown up "negative". From the battle system, to the graphics, to the story, to cidney, to having free control on a 2 freaking lane road LOL. I just don't understand why people bother adding their continuous dislike for the game. I can already predict super low user scores from the "fan base", because people can't get over the fact that Nomura is no longer running the show, and people WANT this game to fail.

That's my rant. I'll try to take it easy and just sit back as I eagerly wait for this delayed game. People can't fool me, their so called criticism are really just bandwagon stop and bash posts :)

Stop saying this. No one is saying that here. You're just making up a false narrative because you're not happy with criticism.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
This is definitely a kooky idea of an open world. I guess this is the result of being a frankengame.

I mean, like I said, I think I understand why the car is as limited as it sounds from previews, in terms of interaction with other game mechanics.

I just want manual to feel good within those constraints.
 
I can say the same for everyone who feels the need to take any little aspect of FFXV, turn it into a negative and then blow it up because that's the cool thing to do on gaf. Anything positive must be canceled with a completely blown up "negative". From the battle system, to the graphics, to the story, to cidney, to having free control on a 2 freaking lane road LOL. I just don't understand why people bother adding their continuous dislike for the game. I can already predict super low user scores from the "fan base", because people can't get over the fact that Nomura is no longer running the show, and people WANT this game to fail.

That's my rant. I'll try to take it easy and just sit back as I eagerly wait for this delayed game. People can't fool me, their so called criticism are really just bandwagon stop and bash posts :)

You gotta find something better to do with your time...
 

cackhyena

Member
I can say the same for everyone who feels the need to take any little aspect of FFXV, turn it into a negative and then blow it up because that's the cool thing to do on gaf. Anything positive must be canceled with a completely blown up "negative". From the battle system, to the graphics, to the story, to cidney, to having free control on a 2 freaking lane road LOL. I just don't understand why people bother adding their continuous dislike for the game. I can already predict super low user scores from the "fan base", because people can't get over the fact that Nomura is no longer running the show, and people WANT this game to fail.

That's my rant. I'll try to take it easy and just sit back as I eagerly wait for this delayed game. People can't fool me, their so called criticism are really just bandwagon stop and bash posts :)
I used to love FF. I was blown away when this game was first revealed under Tabata. Since then, I'd say "frankengame" is a perfect word for what I think it's shaping up to be, going by footage and accounts. Hope I'm wrong. I don't want it to fail. I'd love for FF to thrive. I just wish they'd reign things in a little.
 
Aye if the car is the only thing worth making a big complaint about I'll take it. If people don't like it o well that's there opinion no need to go back and forth with them about it start a new discussion around it. At least that's what I'ma start doing
 

Tyaren

Member
I don't really get people complaining about the car. This is not GTAV or Forza Horizon, this is still a Final Fantasy and the car is less an integral gameplay element (like combat and exploration) and more of a game option to make gameplay more comfortable and accessible.
The implementation of the car is basically the necessary concession for making FFXV's world so vast (the map sizes are huge!). You need the car to get from one region to the other. For the more in detail exploration you have the chocobos...or you can always just go by foot.
Later in the game, when you need to revisit older areas or areas you couldn't reach yet, you'll be able to fly your car.
Last but not least, it imo makes perfect sense to only drive on the roads with the car (and that carefully). Not only is this a super expensive luxury car but also a memento of Noctis' father (we already learned that in the Platinum Demo). No sane person would speed with this car through the wilderness and drive over monsters. It would break my immersion.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
No sane person would speed with this car through the wilderness and drive over huge monsters.

I don't mean this in a disparaging way but has the community around Final Fantasy ever been truly sane, one way or another :V
 
I don't mean this in a disparaging way but has the community around Final Fantasy ever been truly sane, one way or another :V
Look in the mirror and answer that question Falk Xp

Hell no you guys aren't sane I just recently started really getting into the franchise. You people think 12 is good and 7 and 9 are the best when it's obviously 8
 

Squire

Banned
I can say the same for everyone who feels the need to take any little aspect of FFXV, turn it into a negative and then blow it up because that's the cool thing to do on gaf. Anything positive must be canceled with a completely blown up "negative". From the battle system, to the graphics, to the story, to cidney, to having free control on a 2 freaking lane road LOL. I just don't understand why people bother adding their continuous dislike for the game. I can already predict super low user scores from the "fan base", because people can't get over the fact that Nomura is no longer running the show, and people WANT this game to fail.

That's my rant. I'll try to take it easy and just sit back as I eagerly wait for this delayed game. People can't fool me, their so called criticism are really just bandwagon stop and bash posts :)

My favorite part of being a vocal XV critic is people thinking I'm a Nomura stan. LOL
 

- J - D -

Member
instauxsmp.gif


T_T
 

GorillaJu

Member
Nope. But saying you need to drive the car for the road trip experience to be immersive definitely is.

If we're going to make WoW comparisons, I'll say this: riding the zeppelin from point A to point B is much more immersive than riding a flying mount wherever. :p

So true.

And to go even deeper, the boat from Butcherblock Mountains to East Freeport in EverQuest is crazy immersive and all you do is sit on it for 15 minutes or however long it took.
 

wmlk

Member
The Regalia is actually
Regis' spirit living on. He doesn't wanna die again so he always avoids obstacles.

Have some sympathy DAMMIT.
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
I see video games as a vehicle for both narrative and play. I may overvalue narrative in comparison to many here, but it's inarguably part of gaming's DNA. The way it sounds now, the car in XV serves as a moving cutscene, progressing plot and allowing character interaction. The meaningful gameplay happens once you get out.

Yup. Which to me sounds pretty nifty. You and I, we may both overvalue narrative. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

But yeah, those upgrades later on ought to help.
 
people who are bothered by the car...what do you want? Lets say you had "full" control...but was still restricted to the roads and virtually all you could do is go from point a to point b.....is that much of a change?

again it would be nice but at the end of the day, the idea is to cruise with the characters and listen to the interactions...that is legit the whole point, the whole vibe the game is going for. I am honestly surprised you even get to drive it really. Its open world but not, that has seemed to be the idea Tabata has been presenting for a while, no? The Car is a way to travel in between the connected zones...which until later, is rather restrictive to keep you on track. It is basically similar to FFVII's various modes of transport...didn't really open up until later.

This game was never going to be about go anywhere you want, anyway you can. It is still going to be rather linear the difference being in the various zones, there will be multiple things one can do at their own leisure.

I am seriously struglling to find why people are upset here. If it controls bad or is too slow and boring....sure. But as it stands, it sounds like a method of going for point to point with the option of getting out and doin shit if something along the way tickles your fancy. ...i.e a Roadtrip.; something with a start and an end but often sprinkled about the journey.

but I want to know what you guys thought it would be...because I am very confused.
If the car would be limited in a world of fantasy, maybe don't make a big focus of the game be the car. Motorcycles, chocobos, air ships/vehicles, whatever. It's a fantasy world and I imagine they can come up with something more interesting visually and gameplay wise than a boring car
The Regalia is actually
Regis' spirit living on. He doesn't wanna die again so he always avoids obstacles.

Have some sympathy DAMMIT.
Real
Reggis
don't run into trees often.
 
Getting pumped reading some of the previews. It's been such a long time since I've felt any pull towards FF and even though this game has had so many ups and downs (the game was announced when I was 18. I'm 28 now!) I'm really excited for whatever it turns out to be.

With the Witcher and other notable RPG's taking their stake into the genre and redefining it I'm completely fine with whatever liberties XV decides to take. I'm looking for something new and it definitely looks to be that, at least.

Also, I just love that Florence + the Machine "Stand By Me" cover.
 
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