Support NeoGAF

[Zelias]

Yikes, this is gross. Fuck WSJ and anything else carrying this ad.

 

[Calm waterfall]

This is disgusting. Turkey abhorrent attitude towards all the people that they massacred is unacceptable. Turkey systematically massacred millions of people.

 

[CadetMahoney]

It's amazing that Turkey committed like four genocides and there's almost no worldwide recognition or memory of those events.

Awful.

I was reading a conversation about the Armenien genocide in another thread. Turkey also has that nationalistic thing going. Could do no wrong, hero worship thing with older political figures. This is a bigger problem with Turkey since this denial stems from ages ago.

 

[Calm waterfall]

All the people that Turkey murdered in WW1 that they don´t acknowledge

 

[Drencrom]

Revolting and infuriating

 

[Calm waterfall]

I can´t believe that the WSJ accepted to publish such a revolting denial of the systematic murder of many people.

 

[nynt9]

All the people that Turkey murdered in WW1 that they don´t acknowledge

Just so we're clear, you realize that the Young Turks were a faction inside the Ottoman Empire, not related to the Reublic of Turkey, which was established in 1923, right?

I think the confusion is between ethnic Turks and Turkey the country. In fact, the young Turks were not looked upon favorably by Turkish authorities. Here's what Ataturk said about the young Turks:

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. […] They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea, or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow… Under the cloak of the opposition party, this element, who forced our country into the Great War against the will of the people, who caused the shedding of rivers of blood of the Turkish youth to satisfy the criminal ambition of Enver Pasha, has, in a cowardly fashion, intrigued against my life, as well as the lives of the members of my cabinet.

Now, if you're talking massacres/genocides after that period, sure, but there's a difference here. So I think you're either being disingenuous, or unclear with terminology when you say Turkey did those, or you need to do a bit of a refresher on Ottoman/Turkish history around WW1. It does get confusing when Turk is used to refer to both an ethnic group and citizens of a country, and also several political factions.

It always baffles me why Turkey doesn't go this route and try to distance themselves from it. Say "yeah the genocide happened, but it was the ottomans! We had nothing to do with it!" - they would be able to divert the attention away from themselves. By staunchly denying it they are just making themselves look bad and attracting responsibility for it.

Turkish people are drilled from a young age that such a thing never happened/wasn't even a massacre/whatever so it's pretty ingrained in a lot of them to think this way. Going against something you've been taught all your life when everyone else around you agrees with it is tough. It's a lie that perpetuates itself via cultural stubbornness. But in this day with the Internet it should be a lot easier.

 

[Phantast2k]

There was more:

Dance Performance Held in NY For Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation | Turkish Square

A Turkish American NGO has organized a “performance for peace” in New York calling for a reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia ahead of April 24, Anadolu Agency reported.

The event by Washington based Turkish Institute for Progress (TIP) featured a dance performance under the Brooklyn Bridge and at the Bowling Green Park in the Wall Street. Following the performance, participants kept a minute of silence in the memory of the victims of recent terrorist attacks in Turkey and the Europe.

“New Yorkers watched the performance with great interest. 150 dancers and 6 acrobats participated in the show” Derya Taskin, President of TIP said. “As you know April 24 is coming up and we are calling for Armenians to leave this issue to historians to discuss it. This is not something that politicians should be handling”.

Messages promoting peace and condemning terrorism were written in the sky over New York within the frames of the event. ”Truth=Peace”, ”Stop: PYD=PKK=ASALA=DAESH” and ”101 years of Geno-lie” skywritten messages included.

All the people that Turkey murdered in WW1 that they don´t acknowledge

The last one in this list has been perpetrated by Russians.

The denial of war crimes, crimes against humanity & genocides is very common in overly nationalistic countries which are former and / or current empires. From Turkey, to Russia, to Japan. Moreover people in these countries are extremely easy to sway with the promise of the return of "lost land" and "separated brethren".

I'm sure it would be as widespread in Germany if it wasn't for the crushing defeat in WWII and the subsequent Denazification.

One of the Turkish lines of defense is that millions of Muslims (incl. Turks) have also been massacred during the dissolution of the Ottoman empire:

It is estimated that during the last decade of the Ottoman Empire (1912-1922) when the Balkan wars, WWI and war of Independence took place, close to 2 million Muslims, civilian and military, died in the area of modern Turkey.[2] According to the American historian Justin McCarthy, between the years 1821–1922, from the beginning of the Greek War of Independence to the end of the Ottoman Empire, five million Muslims were driven from their lands and another five and one-half million died, some of them killed in wars, others perishing as refugees from starvation or disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims#Total_casualties

But that is of course a shitty line of defense and does NOTHING to absolve the Turks from the Armenian genocide.
But I assume that because of that, because there were Armenian terrorist organizations like the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia and maybe because of the Nagorno-Karabakh War, the Armenian genocide will probably always be seen as more nuanced than the Holocaust.
(edit: Not be misunderstood, I don't think that ASALA and Nagorno-Karabakh War should somehow invalidate the Armenian genocide, I'm just saying that at least the Turkish, anti-Genocide minded public will use it as an argument, as in: "see, they're not so innocent after all")
Add to that the current importance of Turkey and how countries are reluctant to offend it. The Ukrainians are facing the same problem with the Holodomor as well as dozens other peoples who suffered under the Russian rule.

Having said all that, the Armenian genocide should absolutely be recognized as such and I hope that Turkey someday also comes to this conclusion.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Only Jews are ever victims of genocide don't you know?

For everyone else, it's "get over it" or now, flat out denials apparently.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Wonder if Cenk and TYT will cover this.

Ana is gonna go off

 

[Leopold]

Only Jews are ever victims of genocide don't you know?

For everyone else, it's "get over it" or now, flat out denials apparently.

What?

 

[linsivvi]

nothing on that link says Cenk denies the holocaust. And if your talking about this line:

"The United States helped to sponsor war propaganda against Turkey during World War I as part of an official campaign to smear its enemies, as it did with Germany."

I'd call that a stretch

Not only that, the article was from 1999 when he was a conservative. His political positions on many issues have switched since then.

 

[Stereogatari]

Most Westerners, Christian or Atheist, are biased in favour of the Christian side of the story.

There was no genocide. It was inter-communal violence. The same violence that destroyed ethnic Turkish presence in Balkans and Caucasus, destroyed Greek and Armenian prescence in Anatolia.

I'm no Erdoğan supporter. I'm quite liberal. I don't like Islam. I'm very amicable and supportive of European cultural influence in Turkey. So I'm not some rabble rouser typical image of a nationalist.

But I can't support the one-sided politics of the Armenian Genocide. It makes it look like only they suffered, and the fact that people always get pissy when Turks like me bring this up, proves that the general Western opinion is biased in favour of the Armenian side of the story.

All the people that Turkey murdered in WW1 that they don´t acknowledge

The last one on that list is of Turkish victims. In fact that last one is a genocide Turks bring up to point out how it doesn't get as much publicity as the Armenian massacres.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Makes me literally nauseous hearing this tbh.

What?

What?

 

[elrechazado]

Only Jews are ever victims of genocide don't you know?

For everyone else, it's "get over it" or now, flat out denials apparently.

Umm, who is saying this anywhere, but the Turks? Particularly in this thread....projecting ?

 

[reggieandTFE]

Just so we're clear, you realize that the Young Turks were a faction inside the Ottoman Empire, not related to the Reublic of Turkey, which was established in 1923, right?

I think the confusion is between ethnic Turks and Turkey the country. In fact, the young Turks were not looked upon favorably by Turkish authorities. Here's what Ataturk said about the young Turks:



Now, if you're talking massacres/genocides after that period, sure, but there's a difference here. So I think you're either being disingenuous, or unclear with terminology when you say Turkey did those, or you need to do a bit of a refresher on Ottoman/Turkish history around WW1. It does get confusing when Turk is used to refer to both an ethnic group and citizens of a country, and also several political factions.

It always baffles me why Turkey doesn't go this route and try to distance themselves from it. Say "yeah the genocide happened, but it was the ottomans! We had nothing to do with it!" - they would be able to divert the attention away from themselves. By staunchly denying it they are just making themselves look bad and attracting responsibility for it.

Turkish people are drilled from a young age that such a thing never happened/wasn't even a massacre/whatever so it's pretty ingrained in a lot of them to think this way. Going against something you've been taught all your life when everyone else around you agrees with it is tough. It's a lie that perpetuates itself via cultural stubbornness. But in this day with the Internet it should be a lot easier.

What??! The Young Turks weren't just a faction, they were democratically elected and controlled the Ottoman Empire during the genocide.

 

[Linkyn]

I don't get why it's so hard to call it what it is. The genocide was carried out in and by the Ottoman empire during and immediately following WW1. It's not like modern Turkey had anything to do with it.

 

[CadetMahoney]

There was more:

“New Yorkers watched the performance with great interest. 150 dancers and 6 acrobats participated in the show”.

Messages were written in the sky over New York, ”101 years of Geno-lie” skywritten messages included.

Geno-lie?

Is this some South Park episode irl.

 

[spekkeh]

Most Westerners, Christian or Atheist, are biased in favour of the truth.

Fixed.

There was no genocide. It was inter-communal violence. The same violence that destroyed ethnic Turkish presence in Balkans and Caucasus, destroyed Greek and Armenian prescence in Anatolia.

Only one group was forced to flee and the other systematically exterminated.

I'm no Erdoğan supporter. I'm quite liberal. I don't like Islam. I'm very amicable and supportive of European cultural influence in Turkey. So I'm not some rabble rouser typical image of a nationalist.

You may not have the typical image, but you are one nonetheless.

 

[elrechazado]

Most Westerners, Christian or Atheist, are biased in favour of the Christian side of the story.

There was no genocide. It was inter-communal violence. The same violence that destroyed ethnic Turkish presence in Balkans and Caucasus, destroyed Greek and Armenian prescence in Anatolia.

I'm no Erdoğan supporter. I'm quite liberal. I don't like Islam. I'm very amicable and supportive of European cultural influence in Turkey. So I'm not some rabble rouser typical image of a nationalist.

But I can't support the one-sided politics of the Armenian Genocide. It makes it look like only they suffered, and the fact that people always get pissy when Turks like me bring this up, proves that the general Western opinion is biased in favour of the Armenian side of the story.


The last one on that list is of Turkish victims. In fact that last one is a genocide Turks bring up to point out how it doesn't get as much publicity as the Armenian massacres.

"There was no genocide".

Yes, there was. Plenty of attempts to establish your bona fides in that post to divert criticism of what you are saying, but there is zero difference between this post and holocaust denial.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Most Westerners, Christian or Atheist, are biased in favour of the Christian side of the story.

There was no genocide. It was inter-communal violence. The same violence that destroyed ethnic Turkish presence in Balkans and Caucasus, destroyed Greek and Armenian prescence in Anatolia.

Turks in Bulgaria were 10,7% of the population 100 years ago and 9,5% of the population now. That's not destroyed. To lose more then 95% of your ethnic group like the Armenians in Turkey is to be destroyed.

 

[Stereogatari]

"There was no genocide".

Yes, there was. Plenty of attempts to establish your bona fides in that post to divert criticism of what you are saying, but there is zero difference between this post and holocaust denial.

I genuinely don't think it was a genocide. There's not enough evidence. To me it was mismanagement by the Ottoman State.

 

[Trojita]

I genuinely don't think it was a genocide. There's not enough evidence. To me it was mismanagement by the Ottoman State.

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[elrechazado]

I genuinely don't think it was a genocide. There's not enough evidence. To me it was mismanagement by the Ottoman State.

Hitler mismanaged those pleasant labor camps. The rape of Nanking was just a logistics bungling!

I have no words dude. No genocide? Mismanagement? Welcome to the ignore list. I find your views cold and abhorrent.


Edit: That was fast. Maybe he wasn't actually banned, just mismanaged by a mod.

 

[ebullientprism]

The WSJ's spokesperson gave a real dumb rationale:

I mean, "provocative" describes a racy ad or something. Not something that denies genocide. It doesn't seem tasteful either.

I mean the free exchange of ideas, even denying genocide, may be allowable legally and I can live with that. But it doesn't mean the WSJ has to give space to them.

Seriously. WTF. Whats next? A neo nazi ad denying the holocaust being termed as provocative?

Edit: That was fast. Maybe he wasn't actually banned, just mismanaged by a mod.

/dead.

 

[El Topo]

Edit: That was fast. Maybe he wasn't actually banned, just mismanaged by a mod.

There's not enough evidence to say whether he got banned.

 

[Phantast2k]

Most Westerners, Christian or Atheist, are biased in favour of the Christian side of the story.

There was no genocide. It was inter-communal violence. The same violence that destroyed ethnic Turkish presence in Balkans and Caucasus, destroyed Greek and Armenian prescence in Anatolia.

I'm no Erdoğan supporter. I'm quite liberal. I don't like Islam. I'm very amicable and supportive of European cultural influence in Turkey. So I'm not some rabble rouser typical image of a nationalist.

But I can't support the one-sided politics of the Armenian Genocide. It makes it look like only they suffered, and the fact that people always get pissy when Turks like me bring this up, proves that the general Western opinion is biased in favour of the Armenian side of the story.

Well, by the same token Germany could bring up Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–50) or, say, the bombing of Dresden in the Holocaust / German war crimes discussions, yet no German official ever does and both are seen as disconnected in the public discourse. So why can't one stand next to the other and be discussed in its own right when it comes to the anti-Armenian and anti-Turkish violence?

And the Srebrenica GENOCIDE proves you wrong btw.

 

[Leopold]

Lots of Jewish communities recognize the Armenian Genocide and the Yad Vashem has cooperated with Yerevan in order to memorialize the catastrophe. The Israeli government, unfortunately, due to political stupidities, does not officially recognizes it in order not to antagonize Turkey.


Or the post about "just Jews have the right to have their genocide recognized" is a subtly ironic one or there is something deeply wrong about this discussion.

 

[nynt9]

What??! The Young Turks weren't just a faction, they were democratically elected and controlled the Ottoman Empire during the genocide.

I meant "they were of the Ottoman Empire as opposed to the Turkish Republic". Maybe faction isn't the correct word to use there, I'm sorry, but the rest of the post stands minus the vocabulary error, no?

also, wtf @ stereogatari

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

how did the WSJ let this slip in?

They didn't let t slip in. WSJ sucks and is exactly the type of publication that wouldn't have an issue with this.

What the hell?

 

[xenist]

Luckily for me stereogatari seems to be banned or my reaction would have gotten me banned instead.

Inter-communal violence my ass. I guess the amele taburlari were community created.

 

[Yamauchi]

Thing that annoys me about the ads is the implication is that the Armenians are at fault for the lack of peace. We're peaceful genocide denying Turks, why can't you coexist with us, Armenians? Really disgusting.

Yes, that is the most disgusting aspect of the ad.

 

[mcarlie]

Obama still also avoids calling it a genocide. Pretty ridiculous.

 

[szaromir]

Wonder if Cenk and TYT will cover this.

Too busy promoting the Ottoman empire as an example of peaceful coexistence of people of different religions and cultures.

 

[maxiell]

Stereogatari's views are more common than you would think, sadly. Very few people deny the Holocaust, but for some reason it is seen as okay to deny what happened to the Armenians. Hopefully the WSJ putting this debate front and center will prompt people to learn that these awful views are very much mistaken.

 

[fixedpoint]

Completely unsurprising that a News Corp. paper would publish trash like this.

 

[HowardRoark]

Stereogatari's views are more common than you would think, sadly. Very few people deny the Holocaust, but for some reason it is seen as okay to deny what happened to the Armenians. Hopefully the WSJ putting this debate front and center will prompt people to learn that these awful views are very much mistaken.

I truly don't understand that motivations of an individual to deny something like this. All major nations have extremely shameful actions in their past. Citizens of those nations recognize this, and don't deny history. Why is it different here?

 

[massoluk]

It's a crime committed by ancestors generations past, these pitiful people should just get over the denial already.

 

[Syncytia]

brb gonna try and run a full page ad denying the holocaust.

I'm sure they would allow that as well.

 

[blackMamba1187]

Disgusting.

 

[Orbis]

I don't get why it's so hard to call it what it is. The genocide was carried out in and by the Ottoman empire during and immediately following WW1. It's not like modern Turkey had anything to do with it.

This is one of the most frustrating aspects. Nobody wants to blame modern Turkey for this, all that needs to be done is that Turkey (and everyone else) acknowledge it happened. What is achieved by defending a regime of the distant past, at the cost of insulting the memories of countless people? Germany fully acknowledges and commemorates with utmost respect the Holocaust, which happened in their country and was conducted by their elected government, while rightly distancing itself from those actions.

Thing that annoys me about the ads is the implication is that the Armenians are at fault for the lack of peace. We're peaceful genocide denying Turks, why can't you coexist with us, Armenians? Really disgusting.

And this is one of the most disgraceful aspects.

 

[18-Volt]

As a person who's a grand-grandson of a fallen Ottoman segeant in WW1, this is disgusting. And embarrassing. I don't know what they're trying to achieve by doing this. What do they think happen when world say "Right, Turks are innocent, we're wrong no such thing has happened"? Will it all go away? Will record be clean? Turkey will be as innocent as butterfly? Do they really think this is the only sin that the Empire has commited? Are they sure there were nothing else? Like, Istanbul pogroms of 1957? Hamidian massacres? Palestinian massacres? Serbian Revolt? Albanian revolt? Dersim bombings? Alevi massacres of 1870's? Madimak massacre?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Thing that annoys me about the ads is the implication is that the Armenians are at fault for the lack of peace. We're peaceful genocide denying Turks, why can't you coexist with us, Armenians? Really disgusting.

Well that's the logical conclusion. The Turks were just peaceful rulers and those dirty Armenians didn't want to talk it out, caused trouble and they therefore were justifiably killed. That's what I seem to see most of these days, it's not that people weren't killed, but that the Turks think they had reason to kill them.

I mean we just saw this with Stereogatari. These idiots claim it wasn't a genocide but "inter-communal violence."

It's a crime committed by ancestors generations past, these pitiful people should just get over the denial already.

That's what's so silly about the denial. I'm not going to "say the sins of the father are the sins of the son." I can't blame a modern Turk for what happened nearly a hundred years ago anymore than I can blame a modern German for the Holocaust. But not even wanting to even simply acknowledge that their ancestors did wrong and then also actively trying to promote the "truth" is just ridiculous.

They stain themselves by their actions.

 

[Ithil]

Vile stuff.
I did a project on the Armenian Genocide in college, it was a horrorshow.

Denying it still after over a century is just cowardly.

 

[SURGEdude]

Most Westerners, Christian or Atheist, are biased in favour of the Christian side of the story.

There was no genocide. It was inter-communal violence. The same violence that destroyed ethnic Turkish presence in Balkans and Caucasus, destroyed Greek and Armenian prescence in Anatolia.

I'm no Erdoğan supporter. I'm quite liberal. I don't like Islam. I'm very amicable and supportive of European cultural influence in Turkey. So I'm not some rabble rouser typical image of a nationalist.

But I can't support the one-sided politics of the Armenian Genocide. It makes it look like only they suffered, and the fact that people always get pissy when Turks like me bring this up, proves that the general Western opinion is biased in favour of the Armenian side of the story.


The last one on that list is of Turkish victims. In fact that last one is a genocide Turks bring up to point out how it doesn't get as much publicity as the Armenian massacres.

Oh dear god. What world are you living in? People rip on Germany, the former colonial powers and the USA constantly despite repeated admission of guilt and at least some attempts at atonement. Turkey gets a pass by people who are worried of being accused of just the BS bias you're alleging.

Both the Ottoman's and the Japanese got away with murder and the world barely mentions it because they have the gall to pretend it didn't exist.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Why do they even bother trying to hide it behind a veil of concern trolling?

"Oh, we just want to reconcile and be peaceful, the best way to do that is to continue denying a 100-year old genocide! That will certainly make the Armenians truly happy!"

Everybody can see through that shit, you might as well be open in your douchebaggery.

 

[Tigress]

Why do they even bother trying to hide it behind a veil of concern trolling?

"Oh, we just want to reconcile and be peaceful, the best way to do that is to continue denying a 100-year old genocide! That will certainly make the Armenians truly happy!"

Everybody can see through that shit, you might as well be open in your douchebaggery.

They don't care about the opinions of the Armenians. This is to make other people who aren't in involved hopefully confused. If they act like the ones who are looking for peace now then maybe they can convince others it did not happen. They're not really looking for peace from the Armenians. And I'll bet some of them have bought into the lie and actually believe it (those might actually be looking for peace with the Armenians as they think they're acting the "bigger man").

 

[nynt9]

That's what's so silly about the denial. I'm not going to "say the sins of the father are the sins of the son." I can't blame a modern Turk for what happened nearly a hundred years ago anymore than I can blame a modern German for the Holocaust. But not even wanting to even simply acknowledge that their ancestors did wrong and then also actively trying to promote the "truth" is just ridiculous.

They stain themselves by their actions.

Exactly! It's so frustrating. Moving on would have been so much better. As a Turkish person, I think I can shed insight into where it comes from, at least my perspective. A lot of Turkish people are pretty nationalistic, and due to the way the country was formed they generally have a distaste towards "western imperialists". Coupled with the fact that it's always been taught as a "it didn't really happen/wasn't really a genocide" in schools, when "imperialists" tell them that it's actually a genocide they feel defensive about it, like foreign interests are trying to hurt the country. It's unreasonable and childish and stubborn, but it comes from a distrust towards "western interests". There's more to it than that, but that's the short version of it. They hear "[insert country] is blaming Turkey for the genocide, it didn't even really happen!" and immediately think that country is trying to undermine Turkey. Sometimes that's not entirely untrue, countries have used the genocide denial to block Turkey's entry to the EU for example. So the defensiveness increases. There's also some propaganda, like that famous picture of the supposed Turkish officer teasing starving children with bread, which was proven to be a hoax . Stuff like that just reinforces their persecution complex that "the westerners are just out to get them" or whatever.

Like, a lot of people aren't denying it because they hate Armenians or are malicious or whatever. They're really just ignorant in the sense that they've never been taught anything else and any challenge to their views comes from outside sources and they view it as a threat. One positive thing is that in the younger generation, people are a lot more aware and are understanding of the historical context, and there (anectodally) seems to be less denial. With the internet and increase in literacy, hopefully this will stop. Erdogan is a fucking dick though, and he's not helping at all.

Spoiler

In case it is somehow not obvious, I'm not denying it's a genocide. I'm not trying to excuse the beliefs of these people. I'm just explaining where the denial comes from and how stupid it is. I wish people could fucking get over their nationalism and accept the genocide and move on, and talk about what Turkey does now. It's in its 100th anniversary FFS.

 

[sturgboski]

Stereogatari's views are more common than you would think, sadly. Very few people deny the Holocaust, but for some reason it is seen as okay to deny what happened to the Armenians. Hopefully the WSJ putting this debate front and center will prompt people to learn that these awful views are very much mistaken.

I think it's an ingrained cultural thing. They are taught and raised to believe a certain truth. In grad school I had a Turkish friend a lnd a friend from Cyprus. The Turkish guy truly believes Turkey had to take over half of Cyprus (an island smaller than Long Island) or else Cyprus would invade Turkey. Friend from Cyprus was the one to point out the ignorance taught there and thus didn't get too mad.

 

[spekkeh]

I think most people go on the defensive when their country is being attacked, especially if it's from an era that the country was an imperial power that was punching far above its weight. Lots of people get warm fuzzy feelings about it, we can pretend we are above it, but NeoGAF is filled to the brim with it whenever someone criticizes the US/UK/Netherlands/etc. It's just that when it comes to European countries at least, they learned from the World Wars that nationalism is one of the ugliest feelings you can have, so this casts some inner doubt and reflection whenever someone accuses you of it.
In Turkey nationalism is far from an ugly word seeing as it was strongly linked to Kemalism and now the AKP is using it to make people long back to Ottoman times (probably so Erdogan can finally call himself Sultan). Any dent in the national pride goes directly against the interest of the government and that's why it is strongly discouraged. Turkey is very similar to Russia in this regard, where they see European politicians as a bunch of self loathing pussies.