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[Mael]

What a complete lack of empathy on her part. It's easy to say "man up" when you're not on the receiving end of harassment.

It's the equivalent of people telling depressed to just "get better already"

One thing I tend to agree though

I am #StillHere because developing games should be fun. Leave your political agenda outside the gaming industry #GamerGate

political drivel is already shitty enough we don't need that in our games, regardless of the drivel.
That also doesn't mean we shouldn't be discussing why white male power fantasy are the major part of an industry increasingly shooting for irrelevance.

 

[Widge]

Regardless of gender of this dev, leaving your home because of threats to you and family is NOT "a trivial matter", as she is claiming.

She also casts doubt on Sarkeesian's claims by saying "if someone is shouting about it in public, on twitter, you should take a critical approach".

This is not a good or empathetic position to take, regardless of your gender.

Also said dev is making a visual novel game, I've seen enough people weigh in with accusations of ZQ not being a game developer because Depression Quest "wasn't a game". How would they like it if the gaze were turned upon them.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

If I remember seeing the uncensored version of this screenshot correctly, it wasn't some random person posing the question but someone from GiantBombs staff(?). So this probably wasn't the reason for the reaction.

It's an account with 40 tweets & a stereotypical jew as their avatar, about as close to an obvious "troll" account as you can get.

 

[TheLight]

How are "gamers" being silenced and stripped of rights?

Also, someone can't argue that they're insulted by op-ed pieces using the term "gamer," that weren't even intending to use the term in an all-encompassing context, and then try to argue that "gamers" using the term in an all-encompassing context, are being silenced and stripped of rights. That's hypocritical. And how is anyone who plays games being silenced and stripped of rights?

"Silenced" could possibly be a reference to user posts about the Quinnspiracy were being banned by mods in /r/gaming as well as entire threads being deleted.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Jenn Frank is basically working herself through a breakdown on Twitter right now and it's absolutely heartbreaking.

 

[Lime]

The so called Social Justice Warriors have raked up the followers, website hits, article counts, etc

The so-called "Social Justice Warriors/Mages/Bards, etc." and especially their prominent figures and voice have not only been harassed and threatened, but several of them have also quit and no longer wants to be part of video game culture because fear for their mental health and future and possibly safety. These include Jenna Frank, Mattie Brice, and Lana Polansky. Other women game devs and workers have also expressed concern and doubt about whether or not they should continue being a part of the games industry.

If you think this is a win for anyone but the harassers and trolls, then I'm sorry to tell you that this is anything but a terrible situation for diversity of voices and inclusion of different people in video game culture.

 

[marrec]

I told myself I'll stay out of this one and just be positive for a change, but here I am...

I just feel like most vocal/popular women online just don't do it justice to what the reality is. No offense to anyone, making it clear now - I am not here to flame, hate or insult anyone. I have great respect for women like Anita - it takes a lot of balls to do what she does and there's both great advantages and disadvantages to what she does.

I just want to say what I think, as a woman who works in the game industry, in the UK. Now, I say in the UK, because the industry here is much smaller than in the States and there's a lot less of.. everything. Which includes sexism. The only sexism I've ever encountered is either from online 'trolls'. I've only encountered sexism in the workplace once and it was from an indie game developer, who more or less worked alone, because nobody would hire him for his personality. And that's exactly what happens to people like that when they try to get into the industry - they get blacklisted and kicked out. There is justice and equality going on, it's not a 'boy's club' or whatever social media makes it out to be. I am happy and proud to be working in this industry, alongside so many wonderful people who love games and are passionate about creating them. And these people also happen to be of colour, women, gay or even transgender. They make games too, you know.

This 'community' people speak of online and put under this category of 'gamers' is a vocal MINORITY. Nothing more, nothing less. Bored people with too much time to spare. Most GAMERS out there are nothing like these people and usually just ignore them entirely or take it as a joke.

I just can't seem to fathom why anyone would generalise people like that for whatever reason. Are people this desperate for attention that they cross this border and intentionally provoke and write so much controversial content that it sets the internet on fire?

What I would like to see come out of this is people being nicer to each other for a change and give some appreciation. I know it's a lot to ask for, and I mean it for both sides - game journalists and 'gamers' alike. We like the same things, isn't that enough to just get along without insulting each other?


Can we pretend that the internet is more real than we think it is? Because it is. And do you remember that rule about saying bad things to people (in real life)? Yeah, that one - "If you have something bad to say, better say nothing at all."
(well I just said something, I'm sorry)


I have never met this 'gamer' people keep talking about. This person who hates women and gay people and tells them to go kill themselves. I don't even know if this person exists. I think that people change online and take out their daily stress out, very much like the 'troll husband story'. But in my line of work, where I meet A LOT of gamers on a daily basis, I have never seen this 'gamer' you speak of.

Thanks for your perspective, btw. Lord knows that gamers are, over all, cool people and it's great to hear that your development environment is diverse and welcoming.

 

[Mononoke]

Twitter is a fascinating thing to watch sometimes. You'll see a games journalist (or dev or any content provider really) post something on Twitter get tons of favorites, retweets, great comments, etc. Then you'll see them retweet one of the few negative comments they get "oh look my haters have arrived" or "I'm being harrassed." Then you'll see an out-pour of support, favorites, retweets, etc. And again, that support gets ignored while the person now goes on a soap box about how the internet/gamers/twitter/whatever is horrible.

How can we ever resolve this debate when people are only going to single out the few bad people that supposedly represent the whole? Instead of blaming "gamers" for harassment why not push Twitter or Facebook for better, quicker reporting options and legitimate consequences?

The only thing these past few weeks have done has empowered the fringe elements on both sides. The so called Social Justice Warriors have raked up the followers, website hits, article counts, etc and the internet trolls are fed exactly what they want: attention. I mean seriously, why would they stop now? All they have to do is create a Twitter account and say "imma gonna kill u" and they are screenshotted, retweeted and discussed throughout the web.

First off, while it was arrogant to push the gamer identity is dead message, they don't actually think all gamers are bad, or were even addressing all gamers. Their mistake was in being arrogant enough to assume that a lot of people didn't care about the gamer identification and thought that it was only a small minority that do (and these are the assholes). They were wrong. And that's not even taking into account that it's just a bad way to go about pushing a message (ie. telling people how to think or act will never convince someone of your view point). This has long been an issue with the media and the activist handling their message with force rather than debate. Because in their mind there is no room for debate.

But keep in mind, these small minority of gamers while not the majority, have become the reality for female gamers/devs/ journalists. These people sexually harass, give death threats and shout down anyone that has a criticism of their hobby. So even if the press and activist had approached this messaging better, they were always going to be attacked. These minority of gamers are extremists. And they are going to continue to wage war on anyone that disagrees with them. That is their (female gamers/dev/journalists) reality. They can't enjoy their hobby the way many do. They can't voice and opinion without being threatened.

So while yeah they are a minority, this is a major problem that shouldn't be overlooked because the majority of gamers were offended by poor messaging.

 

[Sneds]

It's the equivalent of people telling depressed to just "get better already"

One thing I tend to agree though


political drivel is already shitty enough we don't need that in our games, regardless of the drivel.
That also doesn't mean we shouldn't be discussing why white male power fantasy are the major part of an industry increasingly shooting for irrelevance.

Media representations of life are imbued with politics. It's unavoidable. That's just something you're going to have to come to terms with.

 

[unround]

The thing with that certain issue hiring Dan at giantbomb was he was TOTALLY the best choice and fits in perfectly. There are a lot of hateful guys on twitter saying shit like "i hope u get raped bitch" but there are a ton of really nasty, mean spirited "feminists" on there too. I use quotation marks because I don't think they're actually for equal right, they just hate men and hide their hate and sexism behind that word. The same way religious people hide behind religion or family values to be homophobic. I've seen twitter accounts that are called "Fuck all men" and say things like "ugh, men are disgusting", "men ruin everything, "yes all men are rapists". If a guy had that kind of thing about a woman he'd be seen as a total piece of shit.



Telling someone to go fuck themselves because they asked a legitimate question is reasonable? It's not a nonquestion.

I guess if you look at the question in complete isolation from any wider context it could be seen as legitimate, but doing that seems pretty silly, no? The funny thing is that I'm sure people are capable of looking at the overall landscape of games media demographics and saying that hey, somthing seems more than a little off here. Whenever you get to a micro level, though, the sexism magically disappears - obviously the hirings just happenend to be white dudes by coincidence, because they were more experienced, because they were just the best people for the job at the time. The institution is obviously sexist but no individual decision could possibly be.

Meanwhile, often incredibly talented minority writers and personalities are struggling to get freelance work and relying on donations to stay afloat and continue doing what they love even while they deal with torrents of abuse. Another hiring comes around, another couple of white guys just so happen to be the best people for the job, yet again, and as soon as women try to talk about these patterns a bunch of 'well-meaning' dudes show up to tell that hey, maybe they just were the best people for the job. Just making sure that you've considered the possiblilty, right? Maybe the women trying to secure steady work in this industry only to be rebuffed again and again and again just never thought about these things before!

So yeah, the question is ridiculously patronising at best and actively kicking women while they're down at worst. I don't blame her for responding to what is probably the millionth time she's been asked this shit with venom.

Jenn Frank is basically working herself through a breakdown on Twitter right now and it's absolutely heartbreaking.

Just looked at her timeline, oh my god this shit is awful

 

[Lime]

Jenn Frank is basically working herself through a breakdown on Twitter right now and it's absolutely heartbreaking.

 

[Shingro]

At the end of the day, the people yelling about corruption just want the gaming press to become Confirmation Bias Central.

My personal dream is that the gaming press stop treating their readership like it's some great unclean beast while simutaniously rubbing elbows with great smiles with gamers at pax and such.

I just want to shake them and say

You know how these trolls feel every feminist is wrong and evil and that excuses their contempt?
You know how you feel the online community is wrong and evil and that excuses your contempt?

See any similar threads? Turn back from the abyss please.

 

[ibyea]

I honestly don't think this is just an "exteme minority" problem. Back when the Anita Sarkeesian being threatened out of her home thread opened, half the comments were all about her motives or some defensive comments. They may not have spouted harassment and vitriol, but they added to the toxicness of the environment.

 

[kiguel182]

Jenn Frank is basically working herself through a breakdown on Twitter right now and it's absolutely heartbreaking.

Her tweets made me sad. She is taking so much abuse, for absolutely no reason.

Gamer gate is just hiding behind their "corruption" agenda to justify attacking whoever they want.

Just sad.

They are also proving the point of the "gamers are dead" idea. Why should the industry cater to these people?

 

[marrec]

The worst part is that people are creating troll accounts in order to continue to hound Jenn about this. That Brian Huxley account was made 4 hours ago and their first tweet was directed at Jenn.

So it's easy to sit back and say 'But it's not the majority, man up, block them' but it's hard to do when you're the focus of a coordinated trolling op.

 

[Mononoke]

I honestly don't think this is just an "exteme minority" problem. Back when the Anita Sarkeesian being threatened out of her home thread opened, half the comments were all about her motives or some defensive comments. They may not have spouted harassment and vitriol, but they added to the toxicness of the environment.

I just think these extremists are a lot more then people give them credit for. They are also more active and aggressive as extremists usually are. Unless you are really saying the millions and millions of gamers that are in this hobby are statistically in the majority for supporting these kind of harassments. Where I can agree with you, is that I think there is an underlining sexist culture in gaming that at least isn't sympathetic to their issues. That instead of doing something about it they turn a blind eye. Apathy etc. When people aren't personally impacted by something they are more prone to not care or do anything about it.

When people tend to be in the majority, they tend to not go out of their way to help those trying to become apart of the majority in an equal way. I've seen this in many situations in life. Then again I guess I do agree with you (misread your post initially). I can agree that it's not 100% just extremists (even if they are the worst of it), but it's also people enabling it as well as some other factors with gaming culture.

 

[kiguel182]

I don't blame anyone for leaving the industry right now.

These people won't change so it's best to cut your losses and go. There's no reasoning with them.

 

[Lime]

I honestly don't think this is just an "exteme minority" problem. Back when the Anita Sarkeesian being threatened out of her home thread opened, half the comments were all about her motives or some defensive comments. They may not have spouted harassment and vitriol, but they added to the toxicness of the environment.

Brawndo Addict did a nice overview of how insane the amount of posts and energy spent on discussing Sarkeesian:

Let's look at how much energy and time GAF has spent discussing it (I'm using 100ppp).

The first thread about her kickstarter: 45 pages or +4400 posts.

The first episode releases: 76 pages or +7500 posts.

The second episode releases: 17 pages or +1600 posts.

The third episode releases, but two threads, one - two: For a combined 13 pages or +1200 posts.

The fourth episode releases: 9 pages or +800 posts.

The fifth episode releases: 15 pages or +1400 posts.

The sixth episode releases: 23 pages and counting, or +2200 posts.

And I'm sure there's been other threads about her that I've missed. But just those comes out to 198 pages or +19,800 posts.

Compare this to the original PSN hack thread only went for 68 pages. Or the Xbox One Reveal (58 pages) and the PlayStation 4 Reveal (96 pages). Apparently her video series is only 22% less important to the GAF community in terms of posts than the PSN hack plus both Next-Gen Console reveals combined.

For a video series that follows the exact same format and style for each episode, one would expect that serious critique about her style would be mostly over within an episode or two. After all, the old N'Gai Resident Evil 5 thread only went for 14 pages, and the #1reasonwhy thread from 2012 only went for 11 pages. Or how about that one Kotaku article concerning black representation in gaming which went for 7 pages, or the Dragon's Crown thread which went for 14 pages, or the RPS article about sexism in the game industry which went on for 20. Add all those up and you still haven't matched the thread length her first episode got.

To the say the level of response is disproportionate is putting it mildly.

 

[kiguel182]

Well, discussion of her videos should be encouraged.

Problem is the quality of that discussion and how, most times, it centers on her and her motives instead of the content of said videos.

If all those comments were about her arguments and wether people agreed or not it would be a good thing.

Unfortunately we know that's not the case.

 

[Blackthorn]

I was keeping a clear distance from all of this because the usual result from me engaging in these issues is hopeless anger, but hearing that Jenn Frank and Mattie Brice are on the edge of quitting - or have - devastates me. Two of my favourite creative thinkers and critics we've all been lucky to have, are entirely blameless and by all accounts good people with pure intentions that get by on a shoestring.

What exactly is the cost to the "other side" in comparison?

 

[TommyT]

Didn't have any clue about the #GamerGate stuff going on. Doing a lot of catching up. Thanks for the articles in the OP, very enlightening for someone that has had a passing interest in their topics.


Having a baby has really taken me out of all the day-to-day happenings of the game industry.

 

[Objectively Bad Opinion]

What exactly is the cost to the "other side" in comparison?

Well, I heard they killed the word gamer. That has to be pretty big right. I've never heard of a whole identity being killed in a day like that before.

 

[Metroidvania]

Brawndo Addict did a nice overview of how insane the amount of posts and energy spent on discussing Sarkeesian:

There is some actual 'discussion' in her ideas, discussing the merits of her examples, etc....admittedly, this also includes a whole lot of bullshit.

As opposed to the 'reveal' type threads, in which hype can only sustain itself for so long without any new influx of information, or the PSN hack thread, which wasn't really something that had any type of actual prolonged discussion beyond "wtf is going on".

 

[Predwolf]

Skimmed the article(s), I had no idea any of this was going on...I was a little busy working.

I think the perceived scope and scale of this whole thing is way bigger than it actually is.

 

[ibyea]

I think it is, I just think these extremists are a lot more then people give them credit for. Unless you are really saying the millions and millions of gamers that are in this hobby are statistically in the majority for supporting these kind of harassments. Where I can agree with you, is that I think there is a sexist culture in gaming that at least isn't sympathetic to their issues. That instead of doing something about it they turn a blind eye. Apathy etc.

The thing is, the people I talk about were not vitriol nonsense bigotry spouting trolls. I can hardly call them extremists. They weren't supportive of the harassment. Instead, they tried to discredit her so it didn't have to be about them supporting harassment, and it was her doing it intentionally.

 

[Mononoke]

Well, I heard they killed the word gamer. That has to be pretty big right. I've never heard of a whole identity being killed in a day like that before.

Even though it's stilly, I don't think we should write off the fact that this was an arrogant and poorly presented message. Unless we are going to accept that the right way for change is to be antagonistic and lash out at anyone that doesn't yet accept your opinion. If that's how we are moving forward, I don't see anything changing. I instead see a lot of people consolidating and drawing in.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Her tweets made me sad. She is taking so much abuse, for absolutely no reason.

Gamer gate is just hiding behind their "corruption" agenda to justify attacking whoever they want.

Just sad.

They are also proving the point of the "gamers are dead" idea. Why should the industry cater to these people?

I keep seeing people saying #GG are people hiding behind the corruption agenda do they can harass others... Now I do agree I believe some do that I do feel that some members in #GG are just extremely upset/pissed that a whole bunch of articles popped up saying the term Gamer is dead. These people more than likely didn't give a damn about whatever crazy conspiracies were floating on the web, then those articles came up and they saw themselves being attacked by the group who the conspiracies were attacking. So they hopped on #GG without knowing who actually started it, they just saw it as a gateway to vent their frustrations.


As for the industry: They will keep pumping out what will make them money. They do not care who they cater to along as they get that money.

 

[ibyea]

@Azula
Continuing from my previous reply, that said, forum goers are not representative of people who game, and I can see that self selection bias is going on. So I can see your point.

 

[Sneds]

I was keeping a clear distance from all of this because the usual result from me engaging in these issues is hopeless anger, but hearing that Jenn Frank and Mattie Brice are on the edge of quitting - or have - devastates me. Two of my favourite creative thinkers and critics we've all been lucky to have, are entirely blameless and by all accounts good people with pure intentions that get by on a shoestring.

What exactly is the cost to the "other side" in comparison?

It's really hard for me to sympathise with anyone involved in #GamerGate for this reason.

I understand why people who identify as gamers are hurting from the idea that 'gamers are dead'. I understand why it hurts to feel as though you're being made fun of for being a 'neckbeard' or 'basement-dweller', especially if you've been bullied for being a 'nerd' in the past. I understand why Leigh Alexander's comments may sting. I get that.

But when you see that you're involved in a campaign that is literally ruining people's lives then why on earth are you still involved?! #GamerGate is irredeemable at this point. If you're involved in it then you should stop immediately. Even if you're not personally involved in harassing anyone, you're still providing legitimacy for those that are. You're still culpable.

 

[Tetsuo9]

boogie2988's take on harassment: http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/96694655508/lets-talk-a-little-bit-about-harassment-shall-we

Also, his change petition "Please stop the hate" has been signed by 8.264 users. http://www.change.org/p/the-gaming-industry-please-stop-the-hate

 

[Lime]

There is some actual 'discussion' in her ideas, discussing the merits of her examples, etc....admittedly, this also includes a whole lot of bullshit.

As opposed to the 'reveal' type threads, in which hype can only sustain itself for so long without any new influx of information, or the PSN hack thread, which wasn't really something that had any type of actual prolonged discussion beyond "wtf is going on".

I wasn't claiming that all posts within it were misguided or fallacious or invalid or not worthy of being posted (although there's a sizeable and significant portion of them) - just that rocking the boat when it comes to addressing female representation in video games is apparently a really sensitive nerve for a lot of posters on Neogaf.

 

[Mononoke]

The thing is, the people I talk about were not vitriol nonsense bigotry spouting trolls. I can hardly call them extremists. They weren't supportive of the harassment. Instead, they tried to discredit her so it didn't have to be about them supporting harassment, and it was her doing it intentionally.

I edited my post. My apologies for the late edit. I actually agree with you. What you are highlighting, while not extremists, are a group of gamers that don't want to hear any criticisms of their hobby. While they may not resort to harassment, threats or doxxing, they dismiss criticism by trying to discredit the person giving the criticism rather than discrediting the criticism they supposedly think is worthy of being discredited.

This is a problem. But these are people you can deal with. These are people you can eventually get to and educate. You can not deal with extremists. They will try to attack you and ruin your life. The people you describe are the people that are going to make change slower in the sense that they don't want to admit its a problem. But they aren't going out of there way to firebomb people. They still allow people to voice their opinions and criticisms. Even if they are delusional with how they react to the criticisms.

I still think the media has gone about this wrong though. Clubbing people over the head, drawing a line in the sand, you are either with us or against us...is not how you win over the audiences you need come around to these issues. And while yes some are going to be stubborn (the ones you describe), that approach is only going to validate those peoples belief that the people pushing the message should be discredited. So this method only strengthens them and alienates everyone else in the middle that doesn't know what to think yet. And it's basically fuel for the extremists. It's just an all around losing strategy.

 

[Entryhazard]

I'll expand. One will get you arrested, one will not. They may be both on a very negative side of things, but context and message counts in this comparison.

Technically if taken seriously, something as #KillAllMen can be classified as Hate Speech

 

[ibyea]

I edited my post. My apologies for the late edit. I actually agree with you. What you are highlighting, while not extremists, are a group of gamers that don't want to hear any criticisms of their hobby. While they may not resort to harassment, threats or doxxing, they dismiss criticism by trying to discredit the person giving the criticism rather than discrediting the criticism they supposedly think is worthy of being discredited.

This is a problem. But these are people you can deal with. These are people you can eventually get to and educate. You can not deal with extremists. They will try to attack you and ruin your life. The people you describe are the people that are going to make change slower in the sense that they don't want to admit its a problem. But they aren't going out of there way to firebomb people. They still allow people to voice their opinions and criticisms. Even if they are delusional with how they react to the criticisms.

Yeah, I completely agree.

 

[Widge]

That Huxley person is carefully looking for an angle to latch onto.

 

[kiguel182]

I keep seeing people saying #GG are people hiding behind the corruption agenda do they can harass others... Now I do agree I believe some do that I do feel that some members in #GG are just extremely upset/pissed that a whole bunch of articles popped up saying the term Gamer is dead. These people more than likely didn't give a damn about whatever crazy conspiracies were floating on the web, then those articles came up and they saw themselves being attacked by the group who the conspiracies were attacking. So they hopped on #GG without knowing who actually started it, they just saw it as a gateway to vent their frustrations.


As for the industry: They will keep pumping out what will make them money. They do not care who they cater to along as they get that money.

But aliening yourself with that kind of people is just proving the whole point of the original articles.

Those articles were shaming a certain kind of people and joining GamerGate is just agreeing with those people and saying it's okay to have a community made of them.

 

[Blackthorn]

It's really hard for me to sympathise with anyone involved in #GamerGate for this reason.

I understand why people who identify as gamers are hurting from the idea that 'gamers are dead'. I understand why it hurts to feel as though you're being made fun of for being a 'neckbeard' or 'basement-dweller', especially if you've been bullied for being a 'nerd' in the past. I understand why Leigh Alexander's comments may sting. I get that.

But when you see that you're involved in a campaign that is literally ruining people's lives then why on earth are you still involved?! #GamerGate is irredeemable at this point. If you're involved in it then you should stop immediately.

Hard to take a movement to improve gaming journalism seriously when the cost is losing the journalists who are doing the most the improve, broaden and intellectualise the field.

I'm going to go on a limb and speculate that most the people calling for better journalism haven't read a word of Jenn Frank though, or put much effort in seeking the fantastic fringe journalism out there.

 

[Sakwoff]

General rule of thumb about corruption:

Corruption occurs mainly where the money is.

Heck, the few actually documented cases of actual "corruption" were corporate. Remember Jeff Gerstmann? He was ousted by corporate managment. Remember the Doritos nonsense? That was a corporate thing through and through. (Both are cited frequently as "evidence" in conjunction with Gamergate)

Yet Gamergate is targeting individual freelance women writers. Those who most of the time just barely scrape by. Who earn below minimum wages. Whose only crime is taking games seriously by applying actual proper criticism.

No-one goes after managements. No-one targets CBS, Ziff Davis, or whomever. I haven't seen any CEO leave the industry in the wake of this stuff. Funny thing, huh?

The whole thing is just so... so fucking misdirected.

 

[Xater]

Brawndo Addict did a nice overview of how insane the amount of posts and energy spent on discussing Sarkeesian:

Coming from a academic background: Is it now a bad thing that people want to discuss her ideas and theories?

To me it is great if something like that results in actual discussion. I wish people would discuss so much about the papers I write.

 

[Blackthorn]

General rule of thumb about corruption:

Corruption occurs mainly where the money is.

Heck, the few actually documented cases of actual "corruption" were corporate. Remember Jeff Gerstmann? He was ousted by corporate managment. Remember the Doritos nonsense? That was a corporate thing through and through. (Both are cited frequently as "evidence" in conjunction with Gamergate)

Yet Gamergate is targeting individual freelance women writers. Those who most of the time just barely scrape by. Who earn below minimum wages. Whose only crime is taking games seriously by applying actual proper criticism.

No-one goes after managements. No-one targets CBS, Ziff Davis, or whomever. I haven't seen any CEO leave the industry in the wake of this stuff. Funny thing, huh?

The whole thing is just so... so fucking misdirected.

Yup. Real corruption is very good at remaining hidden and it's rarely fun or scandalous. Just boring, selfish, capitalist normality.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

I really wish the outcry about corruption in gaming journalism was more significant with the Rob Florence/DoritosGate scandal rather than getting conflated with the misogyny of the Z.Q. scenario. It is unfortunate to say the least.

 

[jett]

This particular article is very, very good. The author went out and actually spoke to many people who were tweeting with the #gamergate hashtag, and asked them various questions. Please, if you do nothing else before participating in this thread, read this piece.

I'm really out of the loop on this #gamergate business. I know about the Quinn ordeal and the hacked accounts of hers and Phil Fish. But the article above says it's about "corruption" in the gaming press? But then it says it's about maintaining the status quo in the press? Why is it called gamergate? I'm reading the article you quoted and I'm still confused about this whole movement.

Leigh's article makes little to no sense to me, either. Is the word gamer really that big of a deal?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai...look-at-the-controversy-sweeping-video-games/

Reading this Forbes article makes it a bit more clear...sort of. Now politicians are involved? So #gamergate is equally about harrassing female gamers and about mistrust in the gaming press? I think that hashtag lost all meaning before it even had a meaning.

 

[kiguel182]

Coming from a academic background: Is it now a bad thing that people want to discuss her ideas and theories?

To me it is great if something like that results in actual discussion. I wish people would discuss so much about the papers I write.

Problem is a lot of those comments aren't about what she says but more about her as a person and are accusing her of this or that.

Actual discussion does exist (and should be encouraged) but unfortunately that's only a part of those threads.

 

[Corto]

Skimmed the article(s), I had no idea any of this was going on...I was a little busy working.

I think the perceived scope and scale of this whole thing is way bigger than it actually is.

Rogue groups/individuals of this movement hacked Polytron site, grounded an airplane with a threat of a bomb, and DDoS'ed major video game services/servers for days. The scope is pretty big.

But what's more important is that it's affecting real people. Not faceless corporations. Real individual, valuable voices, creative and original writers, thinkers and media philosophers (that you could agree with or not). They are leaving the space or just shutting down temporarily scared of the repercussions.

So while the scope is really macro, the individual, micro consequences are what are going to affect us more.

 

[FF Seraphim]

But aliening yourself with that kind of people is just proving the whole point of the original articles.

Those articles were shaming a certain kind of people and joining GamerGate is just agreeing with those people and saying it's okay to have a community made of them.

I completely agree with you. But the problem is that once you believe you are being attacked you do not act rationally and go on the defensive. #GG is the biggest group of people fighting the "corrupt" journalist so that is why a lot of people joined it.

The articles themselves should of been sent through multiple editorial stages before being put up due to how wide spread of the generalizations they made. I wonder if the writers expected backlash to be so prevalent, because they must have know they were going to piss off some people.

 

[BearPawB]

Bullies exist. And the internet lets them amplify it 10 fold.

It can be hard to keep a perspective on the gamer population as a whole, when a minority population can just shout and scream at the top of their lungs and we are forced to listen, and cool people like Jenn Frank are forced to endure harassment.

I don't know why having a discussion about ethics has to involve so much unethical behavior

 

[Xater]

Problem is a lot of those comments aren't about what she says but more about her as a person and are accusing her of this or that.

Actual discussion does exist (and should be encouraged) but unfortunately that's only a part of those threads.

Well that's unfortunate.

I didn't keep up with the videos because I didn't feel like they went deep enough for me. It's pretty basic stuff I have done years ago.

 

[Ralemont]

I can fully understand that more public/known people don't have a lot of patience for randomers coming in just to disagree. It honestly is a rude way to approach someone when you think about it, just flying in to question strangers; that's why it gets reacted to rudely.

I don't think it's rude at all; Twitter is built to function that way. There are plenty of easy ways to have a conversation with friends that doesn't include a public forum, which is basically what Twitter is with an extremely truncated post limit.

That post lamenting the hire doesn't seem like it was directed at friends to me, it reads like an attempted public shaming of Giant Bomb.

 

[Lalalandia]

Coming from a academic background: Is it now a bad thing that people want to discuss her ideas and theories?

To me it is great if something like that results in actual discussion. I wish people would discuss so much about the papers I write.

And if those threads were an actual discussion of the videos I too would rejoice but I would honestly doubt that > 20% of the posts were engaging with her arguments the rest were a combination of nit-picking, ad hominems and misdirection. I gave up lurking after the first two but unless I've missed something I doubt they changed that much

Well that's unfortunate.

I didn't keep up with the videos because I didn't feel like they went deep enough for me. It's pretty basic stuff I have done years ago.

Yeah that's the crazy thing most of her points are super entry level "Death of a Nation is kind of racist" level analysis, who knows what these folks would do if she went grad level on this stuff

 

[Phades]

I have to wonder however, what movement can't be co-opted. The article brought up some points, but once more its a bit "throw the baby out with the bath water". The issue needs to be stabilized, and I feel like leadership would be a better force.

Maybe a movement like #changegaming or something, that way those who have objections over the gamergate movement can still take part in the discussion, and help police the more crazy elements within the movement. "We don't support harassment regardless of gender, and we want more visibility in gaming press."

The problem is, gamers are just people, not a faction. There is no leader or singular voice. I think the previously mentioned references to street protests are accurate in this instance.