• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

Status
Not open for further replies.
I fundamentally disagree with the idea that games need to aspire to anything other than entertainment (yes, even inclusion) unless creators choose to make their games do that. That is where my disagreement lies.
So, white horny males are still the only audience there ever should be for videogames, unlike any other medium, is what I'm taking from your beliefs? I just want that on the record for which demographics should videogame makers target to, according to you.

btw minority audiences are not demanding or boycotting games because there isn't enough inclusivity in videogame character representations. They're not going up to the creators about this. No one goes to Naughty Dog developers on a gaming panel and demand that Joel or Ellie should be a non-white race. They're just giving their take. A little diversity doesn't hurt. Makes it more interesting just visually and thematically, is most likely what they're saying. It's most likely creators hear about these kind of things on the internet, and go "why not?" and now you have a different kind of protagonist or story.

For example, I asked the developer of an indie game at a gaming convention (EGX) for how come the the main character is a female thief in Marvelous Miss Take. He said she was meant to be a male character but after being inspired by his kid daughter who wanted to play as a girl in a game, he decided to go down that route and because a female thief is well-trodden ground so the final game's protagonist resembles something like a Carmen Sandiego. Is his little daughter now some "SJW"? :p
Miss_Take1.jpg
 
Just curious: have you watched one of Anita's videos all the way through?

The first and almost all of the second.

So, white horny males are still the only audience there ever should be for videogames, unlike any other medium, is what I'm taking from your beliefs? I just want that on the record for which demographics should videogame makers target to, according to you.

My position is that problems of inclusion or diversity in gaming should and ultimately only can be solved by the types of people who feel left out becoming involved in games development. People come with their own experiences and outlooks on things and while I do go to great lengths to try and understand where others come from by studying history, culture, etc. I can't walk a mile in someone else's shoes: their shoes don't fit me.
 
Gaming should be whatever the audience wants to be.

People, including me, want it to be more inclusive.

Indeed. It should also cater to people who want in, but feel left out. It shouldn't just cater to the people already here... and you can absolutely make it more welcoming for women and minorities without alienating anyone other than the sort of bigots we shouldn't have ever let get comfortable in our gaming community in the first place.

Look at Doctor Who, say (not something in and of itself that is beyond criticizing for harmful sexist tropes mind). The show starts putting more effort into making sure it's female characters are better developed and you bring in a huge female audience... all the while retaining what it was that the previously predominantly male fan base loved about it.

What's to be against? What's to be afraid of? As a Doctor Who fan, it's been wonderful seeing the fandom grow and diversify... and right now we're in as good a run as episodes as we've had since it came back. Steven Moffat doesn't write women nearly as well as Russell T Davies did, but a big part of what's made this season better is turning Clara into a real person.
 
I'd recommend watching some new ones, her synthesis and the overall quality of her arguments get markedly better as the series goes on.

It's almost like she actually cares about the subject.

Anyway. I'm out. I should have gone to sleep hours ago. Hopefully I can actually sleep and not just lie their composing tweets.

I did play some games today again. And I even enjoyed them. Shockingly. Even one that didn't have many women in (Ryse) the other was Ghostbusters pinball. So weird that I would be an SJW and actually enjoy and play games, but I guess that just makes me like the pig that could herd sheep. A rare and tasty breed.

Ryse would be better with more well developed female characters like Spartacus has. And if everyone was naked half the time. Like Spartacus. I love equal opportunity nudity.
 

Adnor

Banned
That's not for you anyone to decide. That's how art works.

And not just art, also how business work. Game producers can't just hope to mantain the same audience they already have, they have to try to get more consumers and being more inclusive to get more women it's one big way to do it.
 

Sciz

Member
Quoting a paragraph from Milo's latest BreitBart piece because I can't possibly be reading it right:

Five years from now, false narratives such as the "GamerGate misogyny" meme won't establish themselves in the first place, or at least not so easily, because they will become ideological battlegrounds from day one for people who already care deeply about games. (Unlike, say, the entire GamerGate movement relying on the lucky accident of a single journalist taking an interest.)

This is a staggering display of transparent narcissism and a blatant attempt to write a false narrative about GG hinging on the sheer serendipity of catching Milo's eye in a paragraph about fighting false narratives.

Or there's some other interpretation I'm completely overlooking.

edit: it's also amusing that it's a whole article about how traditional gaming press sites are doomed and mentions absolutely no one but Kotaku and Polygon, having built them up as the current kings of the industry. Never heard of IGN, apparently.
 

Galactic Fork

A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
That set the groundwork and lit the fuse, the Zoe Quinn blogpost was just when it all blew up. I'd love for gaming to just be you know..gaming. A means of escaping from everyday bullshit instead of a new front for it, but unfortunately people outside of the communities I frequent keep feeling the need to insert themselves and tell those who are already present how they should think, feel, and act.

OK, I apologize in advance, but a friend sent this to me, and I think of it everytime somebody says video games are meant for escapism.

MSky4cQ.png
 

kiunchbb

www.dictionary.com
OK, I apologize in advance, but a friend sent this to me, and I think of it everytime somebody says video games are meant for escapism.

MSky4cQ.png

Going by your argument, so it is escapism for non-white female playing as cis white male? See video games are already for female! -joke
 
And not just art, also how business work. Game producers can't just hope to mantain the same audience they already have, they have to try to get more consumers and being more inclusive to get more women it's one big way to do it.

All you have to do to find out the problem with catering exclusively to a captive niche audience is look at the modern anime industry.
 
My position is that problems of inclusion or diversity in gaming should and ultimately only can be solved by the types of people who feel left out becoming involved in games development. People come with their own experiences and outlooks on things and while I do go to great lengths to try and understand where others come from by studying history, culture, etc. I can't walk a mile in someone else's shoes: their shoes don't fit me.

Not everyone who critics something should or even can be involved in that way. The people who are involved, however, can and do read said critics and can debate their ideas and points of criticism.

People are going to say what they want to see, give their interpretation of whats currently there, etc, that's all perfectly valid. No one is holding a gun to a developers head and making them change anything they don't want to change.

Heck, many responded quite favorable to the criticisms expressed by various folks, including Anita's.
 

Orlics

Member
Actually went through the latest Milo article, and... didn't think it was so bad! I obviously disagree with him about GamerGate in general, and his take is highly speculative, but I actually like his vision for the future of game journalism. New sites like Pando and Gawker's very own ValleyWag springing up in the games journalism space and that hold companies' feet to the fire even more than Polygon/Kotaku do, calling out those companies' unethical practices and so on, would be a genuinely great thing.

Minus the GamerGate stuff I kind of liked it. Anyone else feel the same way?
 

jgminto

Member
My position is that problems of inclusion or diversity in gaming should and ultimately only can be solved by the types of people who feel left out becoming involved in games development. People come with their own experiences and outlooks on things and while I do go to great lengths to try and understand where others come from by studying history, culture, etc. I can't walk a mile in someone else's shoes: their shoes don't fit me.

People ARE doing that and they're getting abuse hurled at them for doing it.
 
It's okay everyone! Don't worry! It's totally not about women! And they're so totally over ever mentioning one very specific person!
This Mike individual is quite a fellow. Chris Kluwe has been having a lot of fun with him.

cC1byd3.jpg
 

Sciz

Member
Chainsawsuit chimes in again:


The comment on it has more.

Actually went through the latest Milo article, and... didn't think it was so bad! I obviously disagree with him about GamerGate in general, and his take is highly speculative, but I actually like his vision for the future of game journalism. New sites like Pando and Gawker's very own ValleyWag springing up in the games journalism space and that hold companies' feet to the fire even more than Polygon/Kotaku do, calling out those companies' unethical practices and so on, would be a genuinely great thing.

Minus the GamerGate stuff I kind of liked it. Anyone else feel the same way?

He's right that the model is changing. Kotaku directly acknowledged it and the reasons why when they announced their change in focus recently. The idea that the mainstream media is going to take over the space to any significant degree is baffling, looking at the relatively thin coverage all other forms of entertainment media get from the mainstream, and the apparent scarcity of money to be made in the industry. The only major company I'm aware of with a stake in the business is CBS, who simply bought existing brands. Feels like he's projecting his experiences as a tech blogger onto a very different market.

And all the weaselly language and blatant pandering to his adopted audience doesn't help anything, no.
 

mo60

Member
It's okay everyone! Don't worry! It's totally not about women! And they're so totally over ever mentioning one very specific person!
This Mike individual is quite a fellow. Chris Kluwe has been having a lot of fun with him.

cC1byd3.jpg

He`s still complaining about what happened yesterday. I wouldn`t be surprised if he was disbarred soon and sued.
 

Sciz

Member
Good stuff but it assumes there is even one good person in GG.

:)

Eh, that's not terribly fair. They've got some skewed views on the realities of ethics and journalism and don't care to self-reflect on what they've become a part of, but there are some genuinely well meaning people under the name even so.

There's just a lot more hornets.
 

Quote

Member
Eh, that's not terribly fair. They've got some skewed views on the realities of ethics and journalism and don't care to self-reflect on what they've become a part of, but there are some genuinely well meaning people under the name even so.

There's just a lot more hornets.
Mostly a joke. Mostly.
 

Chindogg

Member
He`s still complaining about what happened yesterday. I wouldn`t be surprised if he was disbarred soon and sued.

Can he be disbarred for his shitty comments? If so, then how come the Westboro Baptist Church lawyer members haven't been disbarred yet?
 
Someone should make a full conversion mod of GTAIII where the only change ends up being rewording the title from Grand Theft Auto III to Game Journalism Ethics III
 

CurlyW

Member
Can he be disbarred for his shitty comments? If so, then how come the Westboro Baptist Church lawyer members haven't been disbarred yet?

I don't think they're trying to disbar him for shitty comments. They're trying to disbar him for unethical behavior re: using his connections to gain access to Quinn's legal records.

Edit: and the whole hiring a stalker thing. (And lol how he now says GG is about freedom of speech. GG is about everything and also nothing, apparently.)
 
disbarring him just makes him a martyr to his followers and generally seems petty, since he's not incompetent and mentally insane like Jack Thompson, he's just a garden variety asshole. I don't think that necessarily makes you unfit to be a lawyer.

I guess if people are using law degrees or military service records as a shield behind which they can hurl abuse and harassment over social media, it just shows future employers how much they "value" those honors.
 

Buzzman

Banned
disbarring him just makes him a martyr to his followers and generally seems petty, since he's not incompetent and mentally insane like Jack Thompson, he's just a garden variety asshole. I don't think that necessarily makes you unfit to be a lawyer.

Pretty sure Jack Thompson never targeted specific individuals or stalked them.
 
This makes me ridiculously happy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qb-h0sXkH4

Great address of fallacies and gaters.

I completely forgot about what happened in last week's video's comment page. Some GGer was announcing his disappointment that Mike (the guy in the video) would have a known anti-GGer in his video (the extra creditz guy) in his video and Mike had to clarify in the comment section that he was never pro GG in the first place. To see him address this in his new video is amazing.

I watched a couple more videos in his channel. Really great content but the use of tumblr gifs gets a bit jarring though. Subbed anyway.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom