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[USC-fan]

beaten

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Try here, it worked for me: http://streema.com/radios/NPR_National_Public_Radio?gclid=CPnjl7yVxMECFQktaQodfDEACw

I get Ebola.

EDIT: nm, got it.

 

[Sciz]

I wonder why the people who are ProGG who condemn harassment, doxxing, and being a dick to people don't just start up a new hashtag and migrate to that..

Like fuckin... idk #TeamVideoGames or something. I'd join that team.

It'd be a tacit admission that they're completely unable to control the narrative and everyone was right about #gamergate being a complete and total toxic mess.

This despite the fact that reorganizing under a different name with a more controlled message would be an immediate boost to the public standing and legitimacy of their argument.

Sustaining Gamergate is more important than what Gamergate itself claims to be about.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I get Ebola.

The live stream moved on, go to this link to listen to the segment.

 

[MasterHoodie]

The more associated with hateful misogynist shit the hashtag becomes, the more they cling to it.

This of course, surprises no one.

I hate making ISIS comparisons, because... you know... but this one is so apt.

Only a maniac would criticize Archer for dropping the name of the agency... because of what it has come to be associated with. I presume GamerGate think that's letting the terrorists win or something.

I think something that everyone needs to remember is that this whole thing should remind you about wide-scale politics. 95% of people are moderate or in the middle with a little bit of both sides making up their opinion. It's easier to talk in absolutes when the people dominating the conversation make it a "Us vs. Them" debate.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

"The threats sound.... bbbbbAD."

 

[More_Badass]

It'd be a tacit admission that they're completely unable to control the narrative and everyone was right about #gamergate being a complete and total toxic mess.

This despite the fact that reorganizing under a different name with a more controlled message would be an immediate boost to the public standing and legitimacy of their argument.

Sustaining Gamergate is more important than what Gamergate itself claims to be about.

The arguments I've heard is that those who do care about ethics have tried other hashtags, but those were hijacked and mocked

 

[JC Sera]

This:

https://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/10/23/gamergate-video-game-culture-depression-quest-feminism

For anyone that missed the NPR GamerGate segment, follow the above link and click the play button up top to listen. It's about 45 minutes.

Thanks

Spoiler

I didn't realise american radio actually sounds like this (the intro bit), I thought I was listening to Nightvale for a minute

 

[pgtl_10]

One side constantly harasses women with rape and death threats and the other side doesn't.

Yes, there are people against gamergate who have made some heated remarks, but to consider both sides as equally awful is kind of silly if you ask me. One side is standing up against hate and abuse and the other side isn't.

Have you noticed that any time someone claims to have proof of anti-gamergaters being just as awful as pro-gamergaters, it's always either the Sam Biddle tweet (which was a mean-spirited joke he apologized for) or Chris Kluwe (who has a reputation for being bombastic) ? Meanwhile there are thousands of examples of GGers spewing hate speech and making death threats. Baldwin and Milo are known anti-feminists and that pro-GG lawyer made tweets that were pro rape.

I'm sorry, but the two sides aren't equally bad.

I never considered both sides equal. I just feel all sides are not trying to address the sides points. It's like everybody is talking past each other rather to each other.

We can talk about sexism in gaming and journalism ethics. Each side is too busy attacking the other side. On top of that right wingers are exploiting this to attack femism while left wingers are using this to attack right wingers.

None of the actual issues ate being discussed. It is just childish behavior all over.

 

[plagiarize]

I never considered both sides equal. I just feel all sides are not trying to address the sides points. It's like everybody is talking past each other rather to each other.

We can talk about sexism in gaming and journalism ethics. Each side is too busy attacking the other side. On top of that right wingers are exploiting this to attack femism while left wingers are using this to attack right wingers.

None of the actual issues ate being discussed. It is just childish behavior all over.

We're talking past their bullshit to what they're really about, so I can understand why it *seems* like we aren't addressing their points.

 

[andymcc]

I never considered both sides equal. I just feel all sides are not trying to address the sides points. It's like everybody is talking past each other rather to each other.

We can talk about sexism in gaming and journalism ethics. Each side is too busy attacking the other side. On top of that right wingers are exploiting this to attack femism while left wingers are using this to attack right wingers.

None of the actual issues ate being discussed. It is just childish behavior all over.

Ethics in journalism has been something discussed in the gaming realm far before GG. GG wasn't founded on journalistic integrity, it was about creating a cheap hashtag to share a (factually incorrect) video about a young woman's private sex life. the goalposts shifted to try to give the "movement" an air of legitimacy and act as a smokescreen to hide the insidiousness of the initial reason/intention of harassment. attempting to have a real discussion of "ethics in journalism" under this banner is tantamount to trying to have a discussion of "ethics in journalism" as some sort of response to "the fappening" photo leaks.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Holy shit, I just got to the first caller.

What.

 

[pgtl_10]

We're talking past their bullshit to what they're really about, so I can understand why it *seems* like we aren't addressing their points.

Hence this who thing sounds like mainstream news. A bunch of mouths running off and people picking sides. Why can't gaming just be gaming?

 

[andymcc]

Why can't gaming just be gaming?

Why can't we strip games of all political context and completely divorce them from their creators?

Because that is stupid.

I don't know much about Gamergate but I think that was a pretty good 1 hour overview of the whole thing. Very entertaining to listen to. It bothered me how that pro-Gamergate guy started one of his talking segments by insinuating that the Gawker guy couldn't have an opinion or make an argument about something because of his work background.

Dude writes for fucking Breitbart. I don't have the highest opinion of all Gawker sites, but Breitbart is several rungs below it on the quality ladder.

 

[More_Badass]

I've seen tweets from pro-GG people who say that they've been doxxed and harassed by anti-GG people but because the media is pushing a narrative, no one covers it.

But I know just from looking at Twitter, I've only seen such behavior from those who use the GG tag or don't use the tag but it's obvious what their beliefs are

 

[plagiarize]

Hence this who thing sounds like mainstream news. A bunch of mouths running off and people picking sides. Why can't gaming just be gaming?

It can. But there remains parts of it that we have problems with, that we'd like to be able to criticize without a bunch of maniacs provoking death threats.

I feel the same way about gaming journalism. If you said something like 'stop arguing about game journalism and just read it' I'd think that was a very odd thing to say.

 

[Fredescu]

None of the actual issues ate being discussed. It is just childish behavior all over.

Do you think it's likely in the two months that this has been going for that the actual issues haven't been discussed? Look into it a bit more and you might find that there is very little in way of substance to the "issues" given the most attention by GG. I've linked to her a few times, but if you want an example of someone who has attempted to genuinely engage, them, have a read of Pixie Jenni's data, articles, and tweets in:

http://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/
http://geekessays.wordpress.com/
https://twitter.com/PixieJenni

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

"The first thing I don't like about that argument is it brings up the fallacy of social progression."

What.

And now he's talking about Not Your Shield.

Does this guy know he's on national radio and not an internet forum?

 

[plagiarize]

"The first thing I don't like about that argument is it brings up the fallacy of social progression."

What.

And now he's talking about Not Your Shield.

Does this guy know he's on national radio and not an internet forum?

Of course. But he's forgotten that not everyone uses the bizarre vernacular that all of his like minded buddies use.

 

[danm999]

I never considered both sides equal. I just feel all sides are not trying to address the sides points. It's like everybody is talking past each other rather to each other.

We can talk about sexism in gaming and journalism ethics. Each side is too busy attacking the other side. On top of that right wingers are exploiting this to attack femism while left wingers are using this to attack right wingers.

None of the actual issues ate being discussed. It is just childish behavior all over.

That's because the actual substantive talking points about GamerGate have been long put to bed.

There are three articles in the OP, one of which is designed to address "fair minded proponents" of GG. Things haven't changed much since those were written.

In addition, this post is a pretty fantastic rebuttal of every tangible accusation GG has made thus far;

I had a ridiculously long commute home today (thanks, multiple accidents on 520 in Seattle!!), so I decided to reorganize, edit, and expand on my post.

Enjoy, do with it whatever you want:


GamerGate's original claims are that Zoe Quinn slept around for coverage favors. This was debunked literally months ago. And yet it persists.

• Kotaku shows that Nathan never wrote the articles he was accused of writing
• Rock Paper Shotgun: This is the only article Nathan ever wrote on Rock Paper Shotgun that mentioned Depression quest.
• GamerGate has not provided any other evidence to back up this assertion
• Even though Nathan Grayson is the journalist accused of this unethical behavior (and he never actually wrote the articles he was accused of writing), and GamerGate insisting this is about "ethics in journalism", they can't seem to stop talking about Zoe Quinn (not a journalist) and Anita Sarkeesian (also not a journalist)

Other bullshit about Zoe Quinn

• Zoe Quinn was and still is today regularly accused of doxxing herself.
• Zoe Quinn was and still is today accused of faking death, rape, and other threats.
• Zoe Quinn doesn't actually sell the game she's accused of sleeping around to get coverage of. It's a free game about Depression, called Depression Quest, created to help others learn to live and deal with the disease. She does take donations, and was accused of lying about giving those donations to charity. However, the charity confirmed the donations were actually received
• When accusations of those lies first arose, GamerGate started donating to that charity in her place. After the charity confirmed receiving the donations, GamerGate started harassing the charity and threatening it with legal action because they claim they "didn't disclose publicly" they had received donations from her (even though that is not actuall illegal). This is a charity is made up of volunteers and a part-time paid intern, helping people deal with depression
• Zoe Quinn is frequently accused of winning an award (instead of Papers Please) for Depression Quest because she slept with someone. In actuality, her game didn't receive an award, but just an honorable mention. Papers Please did indeed win the award. No evidence backs up the claim she slept with someone to get the....honorable mention.
• Zoe Quinn was accused to have "deliberately sabotaged, DDOSed, doxxed, and shut down" TFYC ("The Fine Young Capitalists") because they were "competition" for Rebel Game Jam. The reality is that it's yet another bunch of bullshit accusations against her.

Other bullshit about Anita Sarkeesian

• Anita Sarkeesian was similarly accused of faking threats. Still happens regularly.
• The FBI confirmed the threats were real, currently under investigation.
• Anita Sarkeesian needed to cancel an appearance for a talk at a university because of extremely specific and violent threats against her and the students.
• Reminder: Anita Sarkeesian is not a journalist. She makes videos about video games, and that's it. Any attack on Anita Sarkeesian masquerading as "a fight for ethics in journalism" is automatically and instantly misplaced.

Even more bullshit

• There is a mailing list in which games writers talk to each other. Warning: Breitbart link. This fact was presented as inherently controversial, but not really explained why. Absolutely nothing worthy of discussion was ever found on this mailing list. Just people who happen to share the same job, joking with each other, and asking each other uncontroversial questions.
• One frequent accusation of journalist collusion is that there was a collected and coordinated effort to write "gamers are dead" articles to attack gamers. In actuality:
  • The first article, written by Leigh Alexander, was targeted at developers (the audience of Gamasutra), explaining how the gamer stereotype no longer has to be their focus, since games are so much broader. She wasn't attacking gamers, she was attacking the outdated stereotype
  • The subsequent articles are all related to and reactions of the first, not indepedent takes at a coincidental time indicating collusion.
  • Rock Paper Shotgun is often accused to have written their own "Gamers are dead" article. They didn't. They quoted one in a weekly round-up.
• Jenn Frank was accused of failing to disclose a conflict of interest. She actually did disclose this in her initial draft, but before publication this was "removed by editors because [it] did not fulfill the criteria for a “significant connection” in line with the Guardian’s editorial guidelines."
• Maya Kramer was accused of colluding/sleeping with the IGF chairman to secure an award for The Stanley Parable, a game she'd done PR for. This award was actually the Audience Award, and is decided by a public vote on the website and consequently immune to this alleged impropriety.
• Phil Fish, developer of the game Fez, is acused to have fixed the IGF 2012 awards. But while Fez's backers were part of the judges, they did not actually have a say in the vote since they weren't a part of the jury that makes the decision.
• The Escapist ran a horribly misguided attempt at interviewing GamerGate supporters who are developers. Pretty much everything that could have gone wrong, did go wrong.
  • Titles of the articles are "game developers" and "female game developers". Um. What?
  • None of the female game developers felt safe to share their actual identities
  • The questions are ridiculously loaded
  • The male game developers were sourced straight from 4chan...you'll never guess what happened next
  • One of the male developers interviewed was directly involved in coordinated attacks against Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, and others including baseless accusations like tax fraud.

So what is GamerGate, in actuality?

• It's a carefully coordinated attack on women in gaming, orchestrated by the underbelly of 4chan, deliberately masquerading itself as a "concern about ethics in game journalism" because that's the only way it would gather mainstream support
• It's an attack on ethical journalism, the exact thing they have claimed to fight for:

There's really no need to keep addressing these points again and again.

In addition, Leigh Alexander a few weeks ago served up this pretty impressive list of what she considers ethical concerns in gaming for discussion;

http://leighalexander.net/list-of-ethical-concerns-in-video-games-partial/

I guess what I'm trying to say at this point is, if you're coming in fresh to this, it looks like both sides are talking past each other, but that's only because all of GamerGate's talking points have thoroughly and conclusively debunked.

There's no longer concrete talking points anymore, there's just pablum. You can talk to someone saying something when they're not actually saying anything anymore.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Does this show get better, guys? I'm not listening to 40 more minutes of this bullshit.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Does this show get better, guys? I'm not listening to 40 more minutes of this bullshit.

I think it's worth it, but that's just my opinion. Milo and the pro-GG callers are cringey but they usually get shutdown.

 

[JC Sera]

Holy shit, I just got to the first caller.

What.

same
just what
edit; this guy
saying what he would do
is actually what the
kotaku article did
I just

 

[andymcc]

Does this show get better, guys? I'm not listening to 40 more minutes of this bullshit.

i turned it off. opted to take my dog on a long walk and got cat called by an old dude in a cadillac (i'm a longer-haired dude).

misogyny isn't real though.

 

[faceless007]

I never considered both sides equal. I just feel all sides are not trying to address the sides points. It's like everybody is talking past each other rather to each other.

We can talk about sexism in gaming and journalism ethics. Each side is too busy attacking the other side. On top of that right wingers are exploiting this to attack femism while left wingers are using this to attack right wingers.

None of the actual issues ate being discussed. It is just childish behavior all over.

Here's the thing: the side adamantly insisting that they really want to talk about issues of gaming journalism is actually refusing to do so when given the opportunity. They are demonstrably not interested in talking about the very subject they loudly and relentlessly scream that they really want to talk about. They have been totally and transparently silent on the actual, legitimate instances of journalistic malfeasance involving the professional games industry that have been uncovered over the last few weeks (Youtubers and Shadow of Mordor, Gamespot writers hosting a Blizzard event). Instead, as has been hashed out repeatedly, the actual targets of their ire have been little-known indie developers whose crime was having sex with someone, writers writing reviews like every other reviewer in the world writes reviews, and any woman who dares to speak out against them.

On the other hand, I don't know how you can say that the issue of sexism is not being discussed at all. Despite repeated harassment and near-pathological levels of pushback everytime someone bothers to, there have been quite a few prominent women and feminist writers who have written publicly about what they have experienced as women on the Internet. If there's a "side" that's opposed to GamerGate, it consists almost entirely of those who want to push back against the vile misogyny infecting the community.

 

[Sciz]

The arguments I've heard is that those who do care about ethics have tried other hashtags, but those were hijacked and mocked

They're never going to accomplish anything while the main focal point is Twitter. They desperately need to set up a forum where someone's got the power to actually lock down the conversation and ban people, and let that be the official representation of the group.

Instead they're trying to take old image board tactics and make them work for what should theoretically be a respectable social movement, and the two just aren't compatible. And instead of realizing that, they've been trying to rebrand it as a "consumer revolt" instead of a movement to further absolve themselves of any responsibility or need for structure.

4chan is universally considered by the general public as a sociopathic pit of hatred. They shouldn't be at all surprised that using the exact same methods has produced the exact same results.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

And you say they interview Milo later?

I can't do this. I really can't.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Yeah, kind of grateful I got called into a meeting lol

 

[JC Sera]

Ok at that Milo guy say "Men are more harassed than women on the internet" I had to nope out for 10 minutes.

Spoiler

I know the reasons why thats an accurate statistic but jfc him twitsting it makes my stomach turn

 

[MasterHoodie]

They're never going to accomplish anything while the main focal point is Twitter. They desperately need to set up a forum where someone's got the power to actually lock down the conversation and ban people, and let that be the official representation of the group.

Instead they're trying to take old image board tactics and make them work for what should theoretically be a respectable social movement, and the two just aren't compatible. And instead of realizing that, they've been trying to rebrand it as a "consumer revolt" instead of a movement to further absolve themselves of any responsibility or need for structure.

4chan is universally considered by the general public as a sociopathic pit of hatred. They shouldn't be at all surprised that using the exact same methods has produced the exact same results.

It kind of feels like /r/KotakuInAction has become Reddit's Gamergate subreddit. I stopped going there when it became more than just calling out Kotaku on the dumb stuff they do. The users on that subreddit seem to be the more moderate GG supporters that I've seen.

Ok at that Milo guy say "Men are more harassed than women on the internet" I had to nope out for 10 minutes.

Spoiler

I know the reasons why thats an accurate statistic but jfc him twitsting it makes my stomach turn

Yeah Milo gives a really bad look to those people who want to seriously talk about social issues in gaming

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Wow. Now that I've actually heard Milo, and how amazingly straight faced he is.... my dislike of him just went up ten fold.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Wow. Now that I've actually heard Milo, and how amazingly straight faced he is.... my dislike of him just went up ten fold.

Same. You can hear the smarmy smugness in his voice that for me really cements the crumminess of who he is as a person. The other panel guests are good though.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Holy shit at this caller saying she has been personally insulted by Arthur Chu, and him politely asking "when did I insult you? Please tell me the insulting tweet".

This seriously just became an internet forum.

 

[catmario]

Whoa... I don't know anything about #GAMERGATE, but It's a huge megatons.

Maybe I'd better not to join to this topic.

 

[Hackworth]

My twitter is blowing up again, GGers are saying Zoe Quinn doxxed someone and I figure I'll get an honest answer as to how much shit they're shovelling from y'all.

Honestly I'm assuming they're using a flexible definition of Doxxing.

 

[chaobreaker]

I'm not sure how this works, but don't we usually start a new thread after the 19500th post?

We should include dLMN8R's huge post on the OP.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

None of the actual issues ate being discussed. It is just childish behavior all over.

Because there aren't any. This whole journalism thing was a fantasy to begin with, and not in any way worth all this fuss.

 

[JC Sera]

Whoa... I don't know anything about #GAMERGATE, but It's a huge megatons.

Maybe I better not join to this topic.

Run while you still can >_>
Tbh its not only a megaton on info, but there is also some really seriously disturbing events that have been happening to real people. Nobody is going to blame you for avoiding getting involved for your own sanity and wellbeing.

 

[Sciz]

Whoa... I don't know anything about #GAMERGATE, but It's a huge megatons.

Maybe I'd better not to join to this topic.

Please watch this video.

 

[andymcc]

My twitter is blowing up again, GGers are saying Zoe Quinn doxxed someone and I figure I'll get an honest answer as to how much shit they're shovelling from y'all.

Honestly I'm assuming they're using a flexible definition of Doxxing.

She posted the yellow pages listing for the offices of that guy that threatened to get a PI hired to tail her.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

Whoa... I don't know anything about #GAMERGATE, but It's a huge megatons.

Maybe I'd better not to join to this topic.

Your avatar is a decent summary.

 

[Shmuely Bully]

Hence this who thing sounds like mainstream news. A bunch of mouths running off and people picking sides. Why can't gaming just be gaming?

I'd love for that to be the case. I haven't really been involved in this on either side and am hoping at this point that the noxious assholes on both ends wind up destroying each other, but this all started before Zoe Quinn and made up assertions about a particular journalist. It started with a liar exploiting the good intentions of people to piss on a community of which she was never a part.

That set the groundwork and lit the fuse, the Zoe Quinn blogpost was just when it all blew up. I'd love for gaming to just be you know..gaming. A means of escaping from everyday bullshit instead of a new front for it, but unfortunately people outside of the communities I frequent keep feeling the need to insert themselves and tell those who are already present how they should think, feel, and act.

 

[JC Sera]

She posted the yellow pages listing for the offices of that guy that threatened to get a PI hired to tail her.

Oh the horror. When people search it up thats going to be high a result now.

Spoiler

It is a kinda shitty thing to do because it leaves him open to be targeted like she did, however I don't think anyone is going to target him because well...

 

[nikoz]

I would like to personally thank all ggers because now I feel if I identify myself as a gamer, I am gonna get lumped in with the negativity its brought no matter my position

 

[Crowbear]

It started with a liar exploiting the good intentions of people to piss on a community of which she was never a part.

Is this about Anita? If so then I'm very sorry you were dropped on your head as a child

 

[Hackworth]

She posted the yellow pages listing for the offices of that guy that threatened to get a PI hired to tail her.

Oh okay. GG was implying that was his house and she was making murder threats or something.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

I'd love for that to be the case. I haven't really been involved in this on either side and am hoping at this point that the noxious assholes on both ends wind up destroying each other, but this all started before Zoe Quinn and made up assertions about a particular journalist. It started with a liar exploiting the good intentions of people to piss on a community of which she was never a part.

That set the groundwork and lit the fuse, the Zoe Quinn blogpost was just when it all blew up. I'd love for gaming to just be you know..gaming. A means of escaping from everyday bullshit instead of a new front for it, but unfortunately people outside of the communities I frequent keep feeling the need to insert themselves and tell those who are already present how they should think, feel, and act.

Oh, so another 'Anita is the cause of all our problems' post? Combined with a nice 'games must never take on serious topics' and 'only true gamers can critic the industry'.

It's like a hat trick of gamergame talking points, rolled into one.

 

[Kinyou]

Oh the horror. When people search it up thats going to be high a result now.

Spoiler

It is a kinda shitty thing to do because it leaves him open to be targeted like she did, however I don't think anyone is going to target him because well...

It's not like maleness is some shield. The guy threatened to hire PI on her, I'm sure he'll have a lot of shit coming his way now.

 

[USC-fan]

She posted the yellow pages listing for the offices of that guy that threatened to get a PI hired to tail her.

I still dont understand why people are still on twitter.

It has to be the worst place on the internet.

 

[Shmuely Bully]

Is this about Anita? If so then I'm very sorry you were dropped on your head as a child

I'm not sure how it gets much more explicit than someone being on video stating that they were never interested in games. I've also seen what I consider convincing arguments that some threats were likely faked (by no means all though and with a large enough audience it's not really necessary).

That being said, If you have anything to the contrary I'd love to see it as I've been more of a casual observer to this trainwreck in the hopes that it will go away.