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[GhostTrick]

That seems like it'd be a weird question to ask. And does pokemon not reference the PC by any pronouns throughout the game? Honestly asking because it's been over a decade since I've touched pokemon and can't recall if it used to, or whether or not the new ones do.

Hard to tell, I just didn't notice. I guess it'd also coles down to your country and localization.

 

[SciencePilot]

I'm all for being inclusive, but no. It's just a way for you to decide how your avatar looks, it's not some sort of deep question about your identity, you can always just role-play your character as being genderfluid/trans.

This is the answer I like the most so far in the thread.

Maybe it is a little outdated but I don't think it's particularly offensive. You can roll your eyes at how old-fashioned this initial binary choice is, but once you get into the game you can role-play the character however you want. It's not like choosing boy or girl changes routes your character into specific gender roles throughout the game or anything like that. It literally affects nothing at all in terms of how the character acts.

Is it less than ideal? Sure. Is it worth being upset about? Probably not.

If Pokemon has a real problem with gender, it would be the fact that clothing is restricted by gender. There's really no good excuse for that.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't there one character that's exclusively gay, and one character that's exclusively lesbian? I recall that being the case.

Edit: In the latest Fire Emblem that is.

No because they can enter motivated sexual relationships with both males and females. Any way, this is only tangential to the topic at hand.

 

[Captain Europe]

What they can do is put the exact same 2 models and ask "who would you rather be", "how do you want to look" or other more inclusive questions which regonize their limitations

This is actually a pretty nice solution.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

That seems like it'd be a weird question to ask. And does pokemon not reference the PC by any pronouns throughout the game? Honestly asking because it's been over a decade since I've touched pokemon and can't recall if it used to, or whether or not the new ones do.

I'm like 99.9% sure the games callback your [PLAYERNAME] instead of gendered pronouns.

 

[Platy]

Yes you are. I'm sorry if you don't believe that boys and girls have anatomical differences but I can't do anything about that.

a pre-surgery trans boy have the exact same anatomy of a girl
And we are talking about 10 year old main characters that praticaly didn't reached puberty on a non sexual game. They look exactly the same in game models =P

And since pokemon fixed gender with clothing, even a cis girl who hates skirts might choose the boy because shorts (why blame her ? they are comfy and easy to wear !) and short hair looks like how she sees herself in the mirror

 

[SolicitorPirate]

There are only two (except for in very rare cases) sexes though, and isn't that really what the professor is asking? The game doesn't care whether your character likes boys or girls, or is actually a transvestite. It's just asking you which physical sex you want your character to appear as.

It would complicate the very simple introduction sequence considerably, and require many, many more 3D models.

I'm pretty sure SR2 just morphed the model rather than having "many many more 3D models"

And how on earth would it complicate the intro? Just start the game with the character creator.

If a fucking mid budget GTA knockoff can do it, a series that makes more money than God would have the resources to do so too

 

[SapphiCine]

Yes it's outdated. Even if they present a binary choice, they can still word it better without tying gender expression with identity.

I'm all about tolerance and acceptance but fuck.... Now we shouldnt even be okay with deciding if youre a boy or girl? That's a new fucking level of sensitivity in my book.

Do you not know any nonbinary people? Not that they would probably want to be your friend.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

What they can do is put the exact same 2 models and ask "who would you rather be", "how do you want to look" or other more inclusive questions which regonize their limitations

But I want to play as a girl. How will I know that I'm picking the girl?

 

[chillybright]

Wait a minute.

I know there are transgender and cisgender and all. But aren't the two genders you can choose not comprehensive? You either identify as male or female depending on your biological gender or the psychological one. What else do they want to identify as and is it an actual gender? Or is it the "ambiguous/not sure" option they want?

 

[ScraftyDevil]

The stellar fangame Pokémon Reborn has a simple yet elegant solution to this very issue:

Picking "neither" gives you a choice between two androgynous player characters to use, and I honestly don't think something like this would be very difficult at all to implement. If the creators of a fangame made from the ground-up in RPG Maker can do it, so can a multi-million dollar corporation.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

a pre-surgery trans boy have the exact same anatomy of a girl

And since pokemon fixed gender with clothing, even a cis girl who hates skirts might choose the boy because shorts (why blame her ? they are comfy and easy to wear !) and short hair looks like how she sees herself in the mirror

I'm pretty sure 9 year olds can't get gender-switch surgery.

About clothing I said previously I don't disagree with. But I'm pretty sure the female MC doesn't wear a skirt. In fact, she wears shorts, so I'm not sure what point you tried to make. In fact, maybe a girl who actually likes skirts will be sad that they can't wear it.

 

[Gxgear]

People have the freedom to identify with whatever made-up gender as they please, just as everyone else have the freedom not to align themselves with your beliefs. If someone's work makes you uncomfortable because of it, it's up to you to remove yourself from the situation and not the responsibility of others.

This is not a gaming related matter.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

I know about gender identity, but my original point still stands. Generally, kids do not think about this (not teenagers mind you, actual pre-high school kids, aka the main demographic for Pokémon). I've year to hear a single kid questioning his identity as a boy or a girl.

Yes, because people in general don't begin to question things until they get a little older, but that doesn't mean being forced into the gender binary doesn't feel off or wrong to them even before they can understand what that really means for them. That said, the audience for Pokemon is definitely much wider than just elementary age children, and these concerns are huge for middle and high school age kids. GameFreak clearly knows there is an older audience for Pokemon games as well, as the player avatars have gotten progressively older looking since diamond and pearl.

 

[Fliesen]

I'm all about tolerance and acceptance but fuck.... Now we shouldnt even be okay with deciding if youre a boy or girl? That's a new fucking level of sensitivity in my book.

you clearly aren't "all about tolerance and acceptance" then.

I don't get OP's question.

If you don't identify as male or female, what are you going to identify with? Even transgenders or queers identify with something.

Legit question.

'neither', 'both'

I guess the simplest way that didn't majorly complicate clothing and character design choices would be to change the question from a rather simplistic "are you a boy or a girl" to "shall i address you as a boy or a girl?", or maybe after asking your name - "oh, what a pretty name, is that a girl's or a boy's name?"
i feel like that'd soften the very 'definitive answer' a bit.

I don't see why anyone would be so super dismissive / defensive "OH COMEON GENDER SHIT IN MY POKEMON?!". It doesn't hurt you - Nintendo's not gonna strip an entire gym because they have to shift resources over to the "LGBT department"

People have the freedom to identify with whatever made-up gender as they please, just as everyone else have the freedom not to align themselves with your beliefs. If someone's work makes you uncomfortable because of it, it's up to you to remove yourself from the situation and not the responsibility of others.

This is not a gaming related matter.

that's an incredibly shitty thing to say :/
and an incredibly shitty attitude

The stellar fangame Pokémon Reborn has a simple yet elegant solution to this very issue:

Picking "neither" gives you a choice between two androgynous player characters to use, and I honestly don't think something like this would be very difficult at all to implement. If the creators of a fangame made from the ground-up in RPG Maker can do it, so can a multi-million dollar corporation.

this is great.

 

[SapphiCine]

Wait a minute.

I know there are transgender and cisgender and all. But aren't the two genders you can choose not comprehensive? You either identify as male or female depending on your biological gender or the psychological one. What else do they want to identify as and is it an actual gender? Or is it the "ambiguous/not sure" option they want?

Nonbinary people exist, those that don't strictly identify as man or woman.

 

[Seloth]

ITT: changing a single line of text in a Pokemon game is too damn hard.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

That seems like it'd be a weird question to ask. And does pokemon not reference the PC by any pronouns throughout the game? Honestly asking because it's been over a decade since I've touched pokemon and can't recall if it used to, or whether or not the new ones do.

Oh, for crying out loud. Yes, they use male or female pronouns based on the characters physical sex. Are we really now demanding that EVERY game gives you the option to choose between male, female and gender-neutral pronouns? Even those with voice acting? Does it really hurt you that much to be referred as as a "he" or "she" in a game? I play plenty of games where my character doesn't match my physical appearance, maybe I've been traumatised all along, not knowing I was being verbally assaulted!

And no, it's not a weird question to ask, as the main thing it determines is the physical appearance of your character. It's not like people who choose "girl" get stuck in a kitchen for the entire game.

 

[Captain Europe]

No because they can enter motivated sexual relationships with both males and females. Any way, this is only tangential to the topic at hand.

My bad, still, I'm sure that released in countries where that's somewhat taboo. If FE can do it Pokemon can as well. It's just options after all.

But I want to play as a girl. How will I know that I'm picking the girl?

By deciding you are the girl in your headcanon.

 

[GhostTrick]

Yes it's outdated. Even if they present a binary choice, they can still word it better without tying gender expression with identity.

Do you not know any nonbinary people?

I agree that they could word it better, but keep also in mind the audience isn't only +12 people. They're in that weird spot in which the game must be really accessible in term of reading but also not too simple.

As for biological sex, well it is mostly binary. Although the lack of choice for clothing and haircut is the real shame though.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

you clearly aren't "all about tolerance and acceptance" then.

Oh please, give me a break. Are you pissed off at your Drivers License? Same issue being discussed here.

 

[Apoleptica]

People should be

 

[-Mutsukki-]

I don't see why anyone would be so super dismissive / defensive "OH COMEON GENDER SHIT IN MY POKEMON?!". It doesn't hurt you - Nintendo's not gonna strip an entire gym because they have to shift resources over to the "LGBT department"

It's not about being hurt, I feel more like it's about reading too much into something that doesn't mean anything more than it does. I find it quite dishonest to be fair

 

[Crayolan]

Just change the wording of the question.

"Tell me about yourself. What do you look like?">>>*Shows lineup of preset protagonist designs*

 

[Platy]

But I want to play as a girl. How will I know that I'm picking the girl?

Same way as in Pokemon GO : headcanon

I'm pretty sure 9 year olds can't get gender-switch surgery.

About clothing I said previously I don't disagree with. But I'm pretty sure the female MC doesn't wear a skirt. In fact, she wears shorts, so I'm not sure what point you tried to make. In fact, maybe a girl who actually likes skirts will be sad that they can't wear it.

Sexual dimorphism on a pokemon game main character is irrelevant because they are all pre puberty kids. Ask what is your style, put 4 characters with different in hair lenght and skirts/short and that is it. You choose it the same way everyone choose their first starter : which looks cooler

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

I'm pretty sure SR2 just morphed the model rather than having "many many more 3D models"

And how on earth would it complicate the intro? Just start the game with the character creator.

If a fucking mid budget GTA knockoff can do it, a series that makes more money than God would have the resources to do so too

They can do it, yes. But many players are kids who don't want to sit through a character creator. Should that really be a priority for the team? Or should the priority be to keep it as simple as humanly possible?

Also, morphing a 3D model gets harder when your graphics are very stylised. Not that it's trivial to begin with.

 

[Piichan]

The easiest way would be to add Mii support.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Could not the question be re worded while leaving the game design intact, is what I was asking. Like if is just showed the two character sprites and asked which you would like to play as.

In the case of a character creator what I was thinking was they can still have the "default" boy/girl designs but also give the option to create your own. And the fangame mentioned above that has "neither" as an option is nifty too.

 

[Dice//]

The stellar fangame Pokémon Reborn has a simple yet elegant solution to this very issue:

So, like Pokemon GO's leaders?

 

[-Mutsukki-]

Sexual dimorphism on a pokemon game main character is irrelevant because they are all pre puberty kids. Ask what is your style, put 4 characters with different in hair lenght and skirts/short and that is it. You choose it the same way everyone choose their first starter : which looks cooler

Which is how people already deal with this, by selecting which one they prefer.

 

[Wiseblade]

I guess the simplest way that didn't majorly complicate clothing and character design choices would be to change the question from a rather simplistic "are you a boy or a girl" to "shall i address you as a boy or a girl?", or maybe after asking your name - "oh, what a pretty name, is that a girl's or a boy's name?"
i feel like that'd soften the very 'definitive answer' a bit.

HELL NO to the bolded. That solves nothing and creates wider reaching unfortunate implications.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Just change the wording of the question.

"Tell me about yourself. What do you look like?">>>*Shows lineup of preset protagonist designs*

That's a good solution too

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Oh, for crying out loud. Yes, they use male or female pronouns based on the characters physical sex. Are we really now demanding that EVERY game gives you the option to choose between male, female and gender-neutral pronouns? Even those with voice acting? Does it really hurt you that much to be referred as as a "he" or "she" in a game? I play plenty of games where my character doesn't match my physical appearance, maybe I've been traumatised all along, not knowing I was being verbally assaulted!

And no, it's not a weird question to ask, as the main thing it determines is the physical appearance of your character. It's not like people who choose "girl" get stuck in a kitchen for the entire game.

The OP posed the question, and people here have answered how they feel about it. No one is pounding down Gamefreak's door and demanding anything. I personally think it would be nice to have a more inclusive option, or to let the player choose how they look and dress entirely themselves. I'm not boycotting pokemon because that option isn't available. No one is doing that.

 

[Wanchan]

Picking "neither" gives you a choice between two androgynous player characters to use, and I honestly don't think something like this would be very difficult at all to implement. If the creators of a fangame made from the ground-up in RPG Maker can do it, so can a multi-million dollar corporation.

Then you'll have parents complaining about the "neither" gender.....and it's probably ok in some countries but not in other countries, I don't know.

 

[Wiped89]

There are only two genders, so no.

Leave the PC crap out of Pokemon please

 

[Salty Rice]

I just realized i wasnt dreaming and this is really a thread about Pokemon.

 

[Gator86]

ITT: changing a single line of text in a Pokemon game is too damn hard.

It's the principle! Stop censoring Pokémon! Entitlement! PC culture run amok!

I'm crashing now, but I look forward to arrival of Fox News Gaf and the subsequent mod cleanup by the time I check it again tomorrow.

 

[MotionBlue]

Wait a minute.

I know there are transgender and cisgender and all. But aren't the two genders you can choose not comprehensive? You either identify as male or female depending on your biological gender or the psychological one. What else do they want to identify as and is it an actual gender? Or is it the "ambiguous/not sure" option they want?

There are "genderfluid" people that change their minds and identifying behaviors.

Some cultures also identify a third 'other' gender. India is the best example, people can choose a third gender called 'hijra', this is an umbrella term that covers true transgendered people, gay people, or those that simply wish to cross-dress. Their biological sex is still noted on their medical/government forms however, for obvious reasons.

 

[Desperado]

It's not about being hurt, I feel more like it's about reading too much into something that doesn't mean anything more than it does. I find it quite dishonest to be fair

If you're not part of a marginalized class (in this case, non-binary), then it's pretty disrespectful to imply "this doesn't matter really" just because it doesn't matter to you.

 

[sasliquid]

I know a few people who non-binary people who play Pokemon. I'd welcome a 'they' option were you can decide how you look (even if by binary choice) but have a neutral pronoun

Also all these people bringing up "offense". OP never mentioned being offended by yall just assume they are, when did offensive become a catch all term for when someone thinks something could be better?

 

[Neoleo2143]

Same way as in Pokemon GO : headcanon



Sexual dimorphism on a pokemon game main character is irrelevant because they are all pre puberty kids. Ask what is your style, put 4 characters with different in hair lenght and skirts/short and that is it. You choose it the same way everyone choose their first starter : which looks cooler

Actually, this might be a question more pertinent to XY and BW1, the protagonists are at least 15 - 17 in those games. Sun and Moon are rather obviously designed to be younger.

 

[-Mutsukki-]

And how on earth would it complicate the intro? Just start the game with the character creator.

Kids want to jump right into the game, not deal with 5000 different sliders for chin size. It's not really that hard to grasp

If you're not part of a marginalized class (in this case, non-binary), then it's pretty disrespectful to imply "this doesn't matter really" just because it doesn't matter to you.

I didn't say that.

 

[ScraftyDevil]

Then you'll have parents complaining about the "neither" gender.....and it's probably ok in some countries but not in other countries, I don't know.

I have no idea how offering a third optional choice is something someone could feasibly complain about. That's like going into a restaurant and complaining that someone else ordered the soup when you only wanted the salad.

 

[Platy]

Which is how people already deal with this, by selecting which one they prefer.

So why not change the question to reflect player use AND be inclusive in the meantime ?

 

[Atreides]

An option for 'neither' or 'both' is just not feasible. You need to know the gender to write the text. Perhaps you could avoid that in English, but other languages use gendered words a lot more often.

 

[NightShift]

I understand the issue but the game isn't asking what you identify as, it's asking you who you want to play as. Plus I like the specific looks for the protagonists, it makes the games look consistent in design.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

They can do it, yes. But many players are kids who don't want to sit through a character creator. Should that really be a priority for the team? Or should the priority be to keep it as simple as humanly possible?

Also, morphing a 3D model gets harder when your graphics are very stylised. Not that it's trivial to begin with.

Yes, kids just hate customizing their own characters. That's why my little sister loves to make Mii's for fun on the Wii...oh wait.

The argument is not about simplicity vs. complexity. It's about being inclusive to a wide variety of people by providing options.

 

[BajiBoxer]

I like the "what is your style?" solution best. It's Pokémon. Boy, girl, both, neither... doesn't really matter does it? Ask the question, give a few style options.

 

[Trace]

There are only two genders, so no.

Leave the PC crap out of Pokemon please

And having the option harms you how?

 

[Coffee Dog]

If you're not part of a marginalized class (in this case, non-binary), then it's pretty disrespectful to imply "this doesn't matter really" just because it doesn't matter to you.

Someone can disagree about the necessity of something without that inherently being disrespectful.

This is not a conversation that must solely be carried onward by nonbinary people, which is what your post implies.