A 2D game is dramatically less ambitious than an equivalent 3D game. It takes far less resources to polish a 2D title than it does a 3D title and it will never shine as bright. 2D games have not been big systems sellers since the 16 bit days.
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Iwata: "Some developers have become pessimistic about Wii U"
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
A 2D game is dramatically less ambitious than an equivalent 3D game. It takes far less resources to polish a 2D title than it does a 3D title and it will never shine as bright. 2D games have not been big systems sellers since the 16 bit days.
Spieler Eins
Member
Ah, yes Wonderful 101. The only novel WiiU game this year and the only one that truly deserves to be bought. And they will once again sent it to die for unknown reasons, considering they already tried their best not talking about it at E3. (Some Direct for the game will not improve it's perception, no)
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
They should have had them create DKC:TF while Retro worked on a system seller, like a Oblivion/Skyrim style title.
New Super Mario Bros. U says Hi.
This is what's killing me about my Wii U right now. There isn't any third party support, so it's getting to be a Nintendo only console. Which is fine, I love me some Nintendo. But for an average gamer just looking for a first party Nintendo fix, why spend twice as much on a Wii U over a 3ds? You can now buy a handheld that plays NSMB, 3d land, SSB, 2d DK, a Zelda remake, and MK in addition to the rest of the library. The average consumer isn't going to buy it just for its HD graphics because they have a ps360 for that. Nintendo keeps refusing to add online play to games like nintendo land, Mario and Pikmin so if you don't have a ton of people to play with locally then there isn't an advantage there. If you just want to play Nintendo games, why not pick up a cheaper 3d handheld with cheaper games? Right now there just isn't anything on the horizon for the mainstream audience that isn't available on the 3ds.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Didnt the first DKCR sell much better than alot of these 3D games? I think you going crazy
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
I highly doubt the budget is the same as The Last of Us (wherever the hell that comparison is coming from), but even so your point is completely presumptuous. The whole notion that one genre is inherently of greater value than another is a shallow and biased view on the face of it. Thank God publishers finally started figuring that bullshit out last gen and we got some legit retail platformers.
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
It doesn't matter. The entire post read wrong.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
He probably thinks Killzone will be the better game than Tropical Freeze.
F-Zero is so forgotten that it was referenced in a Wii U launch game, helped promote the Wii U's virtual console and even has an item in New Leaf. Also I'm sure if they released a new one you'd reject it for just being another racer when Nintendo already has Mario Kart.
Oh and I'm sure the "biggest fans" know there is more to their systems than 2D platformers and Pikmin.
Can't believe you even bothered to post that after I pointed out how silly the point was. Though I shouldn't be surprised as you seem to be able to only focus on one thing (in this instance Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze) and become oblivious to everything else.
DKCR was released when the Wii was already a smash hit. The attach rate is nothing to write home about but was a success. Debuting with another 2D platformer instead of waiting until there was a large market was a huge mistake.
The market dictates value. 2D platformers are of very limited value on consoles. It appears that in the modern age they are best once a system already has a large install base and not as principle movers of systems early in their life. 2D Mario is practically guaranteed to have a great attach rate, but its not pushing any consoles.
Nintendo focusing on the easy and cheap to develop for 2D platformers, such as Mario U, DKC:TF and Yarn Yoshi was a big mistake.
I won't, but people who have a budget to purchase a single console will.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Well this topic entered shitshow regular format when it divebombed into Donkey Kong talk for no reason. I just remember all the hype around Uncharted and Darksiders guys joining Retro to work on "a crowning achievement", and its a Wii HD sequel to something that feels barely just released.
I assume we got here on the belief DKC will drive system sales or something? It won't. Only Mario is going to do that, and we'll see how effectively when fighting not one but two next-gen console releases at Christmas.
Also bare in mind, 3D World is December. The system sales are going to continue to be abysmal right up until maybe Black Friday bumps. By far the biggest disaster Nintendo has ever encountered because the Virtual Boy was something they could shrug off as an experiment much the same way the vitality sensor would have been.
I assume we got here on the belief DKC will drive system sales or something? It won't. Only Mario is going to do that, and we'll see how effectively when fighting not one but two next-gen console releases at Christmas.
Also bare in mind, 3D World is December. The system sales are going to continue to be abysmal right up until maybe Black Friday bumps. By far the biggest disaster Nintendo has ever encountered because the Virtual Boy was something they could shrug off as an experiment much the same way the vitality sensor would have been.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
First of all, that depends entirely on how you define value, which is apparently by lowest common denominator. McDonalds burgers sell more, therefore are of greater value than real food! Secondly, your argument makes no sense. DKCR sold millions more than any of Retro's other projects, so if the market is dictating the "value" a sequel makes complete sense. You're not even being logically consistent.
Again, so presumptuous. Yarn Yoshi is outsourced and in all likelihood is cheaper to produce. If you think EAD or Retro are pumping out easy to make low budget games though you're delusional.
Thrillhouse
Member
That is the most ridiculous thing for me. Being all proud and showcasing a fucking fur shader? Galaxy did it on the Wii already. When they brought it up during the developer direct was the most cringe worthy moment of e3. Saying that even though it will demand more resources, they really wanted to do the fur to showcase the wiiu. Seriously?
You are making a 2d game with no graphical improvements over wii bar the resolution ( and keep on mind that it wasn't really an impressive wii-game to boot) and you describe a fucking fur shader as some huge sacrifice/gift to the fans?
Well some have even argued in other threads that only an irrational person would have guessed anything but DKC. There was a huge amount of hype for an ambitious game, broad in scope and high in production value to combat the best of the mature offerings from Sony and Microsoft and instead we get a safe and easy 2D platformer.
It is beyond me why some get so upset about that assessment. 2D platformers are not rocket science, they are inherently limited in scope. They do not require nearly as large of a development team or budget as a large scale 3D game. You are lying to yourself if you think it does. Nintendo has ignored the chasm in their game line-up and green-lit another fucking Donkey Kong. Goddamn, you already lead with a 2D Mario, you knew about Rayman Legends and you had Yarn Yoshi as well. Pure incompetence.
McDonald's is the best burger company in the world. Doesn't mean they make the best burgers. Anyone would kill for that level of business.
Metroid Prime sold fairly well considering Gamecube sales. Metroid 3 was released in the Wii's infancy. They are capable of making acclaimed mature titles. They could have been working on a game of immense scope and ambition, an answer to say, Skyrim, which sold dramatically better than Donkey Kong Returns and would have been a far better system seller.
Spieler Eins
Member
To be clear, I'm looking forward to DKCTF, but it clearly is the wrong time for it. (While I still feel the urge to vomit whenever I try to sit through the 3D World trailer) Should have been the second Retro game. Either that, or something else from the Tokyo team. The console lacks an identity, there's no showcase title, not for graphics, not for non-minigame gamepad use (ZombiU comes closest, I guess) and simply not in general. You can't have an expensive machine like that solely rely on quickly made safe bets. It already failed after the launch because of just that.
Sure, you can't drop certain big sellers, but that can not be all - especially if all of them look lacklustre outside of Mario Kart. There's no vision for this console, it's just random recycling until something works again, no experience you can't get on the Wii or 3DS - unless you go into some detailed search for certain titles and can't live without transparent pipes in Mario and water stages in DKCR anymore.
Clearly, the higher ups were fucking up preparation for a new gen since years - which is no secret anymore at this point, but if they can't get behind HD development because of Iwata right in time anymore, then they should have at least taken a more aggressive approach with 3rd parties. The announced collabarations in January were the right idea, but that again apparently just went nowhere? Getting some Sonic game is not even the minimum that could have been done, considering they would have gotten Sonic anyway. Not to mention that the only right move they did (getting PG) will also be nullified soon, since they do jackshit to promote Wonderful 101 - the only novel game they have themselves this year.
Sure, you can't drop certain big sellers, but that can not be all - especially if all of them look lacklustre outside of Mario Kart. There's no vision for this console, it's just random recycling until something works again, no experience you can't get on the Wii or 3DS - unless you go into some detailed search for certain titles and can't live without transparent pipes in Mario and water stages in DKCR anymore.
Clearly, the higher ups were fucking up preparation for a new gen since years - which is no secret anymore at this point, but if they can't get behind HD development because of Iwata right in time anymore, then they should have at least taken a more aggressive approach with 3rd parties. The announced collabarations in January were the right idea, but that again apparently just went nowhere? Getting some Sonic game is not even the minimum that could have been done, considering they would have gotten Sonic anyway. Not to mention that the only right move they did (getting PG) will also be nullified soon, since they do jackshit to promote Wonderful 101 - the only novel game they have themselves this year.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
The attatch rate is something to write home about. You can write to the irs too. The game has sold as well and better than many 3D games you talk about even though their budget was way high and install base was good enough. Tomb raider came out on 3 platforms, fat ass budget and on systems with 140 million+ install base. Did that hit 5 mil yet? I believe DK did. What you saying dont make sense anymore.
Tomb Raider was release when exactly? At the end of this generation's cycle? How did DKC compare to Skyrim?
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
So all burger companies should strive to be McDonalds and all games should strive to be Skyrim. I don't want to live in your world.
Companies live and die on profits. The Wii U is dying and its dying for a reason. Short sightedness, stubbornness, hubris. If they could not see the glaring gap of titles being developed for their system and attempt to rectify the situation then sorry, they won't be living in anyone's world for long.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
What does end of generation have to do with anything? Im sure skyward sword is probably in the 5 millions now and it came out when Wii was pretty much dead. Hell last of us is looking to be a hell of a seller too. And what does skyrim have to do with this?
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
And message boards live or die on hyperbole. Happily this one seems to be teeming with life regarding the Wii U.
Generational fatigue. There is a new generation right around the corner. The market has already constricted by the time Tomb Raider came out. Timing is very important. Which is why DKC and NSMBWii did well later in the Wii's life span while one sequel has failed so far on the Wii U (at least in the sense of raw sales, its not shifting consoles, great attach rate though) and DKC will fail as well.
Skyrim has sold over 10 million games and is the sort of title people were hoping for from Retro. It was released at the right time, marketed to hell and back and made a goddamn shit ton of money. Before it, Oblivion was launched at the beginning of Xbox 360's cycle and came to define its launch and sold extremely well and drove excitement and mindshare for that console.
Wii U is floundering. The decisions Nintendo has made regarding its game library has been questionable. This feeling was galvanized for many as soon as they announced DKC:TF. A monstrous disappointment to anyone who had hoped Nintendo would ever attempt an ambitious, open-world title which may appeal to the core young male demographic.
The Wii U is selling worse than the gamecube, which was considered by the company who spawned it to be an atrocious failure. How's that for hyperbole?
Sho_Nuff82
Member
You can't just wake up one day and go from never having produced an rpg to suddenly making the equivalent of Witcher 3 or Skyrim. The team that made the original Prime games has largely been gutted. Could modern Rare make a credible WRPG? Be realistic.
That being said, Nintendo banking on 2D platformers to sell an HD console is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen. Yes these games are probably all going to be good, but to the average Wii owner, they're probably thinking "why do I have to spend nearly $400 for the same experience?"
That being said, Nintendo banking on 2D platformers to sell an HD console is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen. Yes these games are probably all going to be good, but to the average Wii owner, they're probably thinking "why do I have to spend nearly $400 for the same experience?"
IrishNinja
Member
bro eww, what a waste of talent
MOAR 2D PLATFORMERS I LUVD TEH SNES
metalslimer
Member
The average Wii owner probably doesn't even care Wii U exists to be honest. And for all Nintendo's talk about new experiences, literally every core title they have shown could have been on the Wii with worse graphics. So the only thing Nintendo is bringing to the table is the thing so many fans seem to say don't matter.
Nintendo seems to be playing Wii U as conservatively as possible, and Iwata is in for rude awakening this fall if he actually believes some of the crap he's beensaying
Edit: Somehow in these topics I seem to forget what the original topic is very quickly as they slowly descend downhill
Some people were expecting prime. Other people were expecting a new IP.
IrishNinja
Member
*stretches suspenders* i knew you'd come around eventually
bro i didn't wanna spoil this, but...we're gonna get a zelda too
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
I do love both of those things. You have me pegged.
whats your reason for skipping pikmin 3?
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Do we know these are huge system sellers? As I recall people were already buying Wiis up like crazy due to Wii Sports and the tremendous buzz around it, and the motion controls.
So yeah, they sold bucketloads on hardware that was already a huge success, but what about hardware that's lifeless?
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Pretty good I'd say, what with the atrocious failure bit. Gamecube was a disappointment, but it was still profitable. So again, using a metric supplied by you it was actually a success. Not that I expect any logical consistency in your posts at this point.
Anyway, I already drove my stake in the ground regarding Wii U sales and invited anyone to hold me to it. In spite of launching with more of a whimper than a bang I believe the system will comfortably surpass the Gamecube in lifetime sales. A repeat of the Wii's insane sales is out of the question, but I do think N64 numbers are ultimately attainable. Apparently this is a bold prediction with all the doom and gloom going around.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
You dont know how will DKCR will do. How will it be a failure? Because it sold lets say 3m lifetime sales WW compared to 5+M WW on Wii? But didnt you say the budget and all that jazz is nothing compared to the 3D games of today that struggle to hit 3Million? You slippin logz..
Skyrim can sell how much it wants to sell a game like gears of war 3 has a nice fat budget too and came out the year skyrim came out I believe and is at 5+ million. Retro would of been just as ambitious with a gears 3 budget as they would with a skyrim budget. This skyrim comparision is dumb as hell and it feel like you reaching making pointless arguments I can hand pick any game I want like you can.
The Wii U is floundering blah, blah, blah...I dont know what you are trying to tell me that we all dont already know.
look, all of your claims are legitimate.
DKCR2 doesn't scream generational leap. this game, toned down, would have definitely been possible on the wii. i'm not even arguing this.
what i am arguing, is the fact that so many people are so intent on shitting on this title to the extent that they are deliberately implying that this game isn't worth your time because of misplaced expectation of what they thought retro should have been making.
what a load of shit.
NONE of this disappointment has any bearing on the quality and fun that this game is, based on the pedigree behind it, very likely going to be.
Mark my words, this game will be a blast to play and will probably end up being one of the most high quality fun 2d platformers released in the next couple of years. It's a genre that nintendo and its close partners specialise in, and there's absolutely NO reason to doubt their prowess in this genre.
so enough of the "retro working on fucking Donkey Kong" bullshit, because there's nothing even remotely wrong with a new DKC title.
I don't care what system this game is on. it's going to be awesome.
i honestly couldn't tell you. this generation is just about get into full swing.
I'll go out on a limb though and predict there'll be lots of fps & 3rd person games to choose from when all is said and done, though.
but tell me, which is more likely to be commonly developed by the wester dev community with a significant budget behind it this coming gen -a fps/3rd person shooter, or a retail released 2d platformer?
Ruud_Luiten
Member
But when we talk about WiiU and future, all we hear is that we buy a WiiU for the Nintendo games. Not that strange that 3rd-parties are about to leave the platform if 80% of the current owners think this way.
It's a circle...
It's a circle...
Boy Wander
Member
I think it is a bold prediction. I love Nintendo but I'm struggling to see how they turn this around, especially if a price cut isn't forthcoming. In my mind, what f**ed Ninty up is the Wii. Most Wii buyers are no longer on board and your 'core' gamer is holding out for MS/Sony's next gen consoles. So where is the glut of buyers that Wii U desperately needs coming from? I'm as hopeful as hell when it comes to Nintendo because I respect what they represent but I'd be surprised if Wii U does better numbers than GC.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
M°°nblade;69086221 said:
Others were expecting Star Tropics U. Doesn't mean it had any chance of happening
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
I believe a price cut is waiting in the wings. This holiday would be maximum impact, but Nintendo being Nintendo I could see them testing the waters to see how their holiday games do first then price dropping in the spring to coincide with Mario Kart. However, given the slow sales and having seen the surprisingly bold response to the weak 3DS launch a price drop just in time to counter Sony and Microsoft isn't out of the question.
Nintendo certainly has an uphill battle, but I think the worst of the worst is probably behind them starting in August or September. No matter what the library will never be as hopelessly barren as it was from launch to present after this holiday, and I don't think it can be underestimated just how much the limp sales so far are attributable to the absence of everything now slated for release.
Opus Angelorum
Member
When another developer looks at the failure of Zombie U (the best reviewed/selling(?) 3rd party title), how can they not be pessimistic?
M°°nblade;69086221 said:
With Nintendo's pledge to cater more to the "ps360 gamer" two years ago, i think everybody was expecting a western-oriented, epic-ish, 18-30 year old male demographic kind of 3D game. Be it MP4, a spin-off, a new or revived IP not unlike MP, or something of the same order like Uncharted, God of War, Batman AC, etc...
Not a new Donkey Kong.
look, i played zombi u at launch, i beat it the first week it came out, and i enjoyed it very much; however, that game was not destined to be a big hit because it was a new idea with no marketing push. Oh, and the game wouldve been a 9+ scored game if it had any ounce of polish. It is a rough game.
SolarPowered
Member
2D platformers are actually pretty hard to make.
Carpe Libertatem
Member
No, people just let hype and rumors get the better of them
archnemesis
Member
It's one of the most common genres for indie developers. Perhaps you meant good 2D platformers.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
He didnt mean "bad" ones
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
They are still targeting the casual grandpas. That's their strategy. So they develop games for he wii expanded audience.
Bony Manifesto
Member
They're really not. You could argue that a good 2D platformer is hard to design, but in terms of implementation, only puzzle games and 2D shooters are easier.
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