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[nordique]

I suppose if the Wii U had better graphics (i.e. more notable improvement over previous gen), more of the hardcore would have adopted the system and third parties may have been more into supporting new next gen tech on it.

that said, there is a large group of gamers that never would purchase the Wii U (see: Nintendo console) as their primary console so from Nintendo's perspective, its understandable.

I feel that Iwata "gets" that there's no point in having a third identical system battling it out for market share.

In this regard, I am fine with the Wii U tech as is, the games look good enough, and nice to see Nintendo in HD.

Its more that Nintendo needs to sell more systems, and I don't see how anything software-wsie beyond more Nintendo games will help with that initial uptake. Marketing is a part of selling more systems.

 

[MercuryLS]

People citing off-screen play for one TV households (or similar) need to REALLY go back to the Sony and MS press conferences and watch their detailed presentations on second screen functionality. Second screen is the new motion controls... In that everyone sees it as important and everyone is developing it. And honestly Nintendo is in the best position for it right now because, just like motion control, Nintendo is the ONLY console that can guaranty every system has a second screen available for it.

With that being said, it IS the new motion control. i.e. seriously cool if a dev team does something cool with it, otherwise hacked on.

I honestly don't think the Wii U is in a horrendous situation technology-wise. They are again at the front of the pack with a tech that the other two are copying, and honestly the leap here is less than it was last gen (480p to 720p was way more disparaging than 1080p in both cases just with lower polys, smaller textures, etc)

Anyway, they can turn it around but holy shit does Nintendo need to step it up on marketing. And survive to the point that they can get a new 3D Mario, SSB, and Mario Kart all out in the same year.. And if the west is currently actively shunning them, start turning shit around and making the deals that need to happen to bring them back. Also wouldnt hurt to get some of those current Sony exclusives ported to Wii U from Japan either (Vanillaware, Atlus, NIS, Namco, etc)

I think you need to go back and watch those press conferences, because a lot of the second screen stuff was people manipulating the game world when they're away from the console, NOT while they're playing the game. Stuff like drone assist in The Division, or dropping bombs in BF4, or disabling helicopters in Watch_Dogs is something that another player would be doing while you play your game. The Wii U is based on playing games with the touchscreen used during gameplay. There's a big difference there.

 

[Interceptor]

He's probably the most hated dude since Bobby Kotick.

Which is funny as he doesn't have an ounce of evil in him. That's the problem. Nintendo used to be cut throat. They were the king of the mountain and you didn't fuck with them or else.

Modern Nintendo is a joke and it's because of all the Luigi hats and Bananas.

Because you and three other pretty vocal (noisy) hate him he is close to kotick? Brera.. I hate to break it to you. But no one cares.

 

[AstroNut325]

Good luck with that! The Wii U pad is useless from more than about 15 feet out and the charge lasts about as long as a good bowel movement. It's a piece of shit wrapped in an awesome package.

When I bought the Wii U, knowing full well the console itself was under-powered, I had high hopes the controller would salvage it, but It's just as poorly designed as the rest of the system. Developers are 'pessimistic' because it's a bad console, and third party games will never do well on it.

Holy shiiii... I knew it was gimped. But I didn't think it was THAT gimped! 15 ft??? WHAT???? Battery life of a good bowel movement?!?!?! Yeah... no thanks Nintendo.

 

[kuroshiki]

Because you and three other pretty vocal (noisy) hate him he is close to kotick? Brera.. I hate to break it to you. But no one cares.

You mean 'i don't', not no one.

 

[shinra-bansho]

As I said (in the post you quoted I think) I don't think they've marketed it enough for anyone outside gaming forums to have made that decision. The reason it isn't selling is because the mass market don't know what the f*ck it is. There are plenty of people who own it and love it who will refute the GamePad being a "half measure", so that's subjective. And I don't think to the general consumer it's even apparent how the account system/game transferring compares to its rivals, and definitely not to the extent that they've made their decision of whether to purchase it or not based on that.

I agree that they need to wow consumers with visuals more. That's the simplest marketing tool for Videogames. Let's hope they do and soon.

People own and love the Vita. They may gaze in awe at the AMOLED screen or marvel at the back touchpad.

It doesn't change that it's simply a poor product for the marketplace. The market is not wrong. The market is not stupid.

This old quote from Opiate encapsulates the point nicely.

I absolutely agree. I would add also that even if we admit that marketing/etc. had some part in the system's failure, I tend to bristle at those concerns because they are often used as an excuse to avoid any further analysis.

By blaming the marketing, fans often engage in this implicit messaging: it isn't the product that is at fault. The product is great and that cannot be argued. Therefore, if the system isn't selling, something else must be wrong. People will argue the economy, pirates, and marketing -- anything except admit the system itself isn't appealing .

That also doesn't change that one can buy, own and love the product, other people not caring about features doesn't mean one has to stop caring.

 

[The_Lump]

Too often people blame "marketing," wherein they really only mean advertising, using it as a crutch when it's simply a failure of product.

The product has been in stores for 8 months. It is selling in the 30Ks per month in the US. Those levels of sales are not just indicative of a "marketing" problem. And if your value proposition is so convoluted that one must buy it before understanding it then that in itself is fundamentally flawed.

It is not a failure in advertising, it is a failure in conception.
It comes to the fore when one asks the question: "To whom is the Wii U supposed to sell to." And cannot find a good answer beyond Nintendo's core fanbase.

After 8 months on the market with little software the PSV's languishing wasn't due to "marketing" either.

It is not some sort of panacea.

Advertising is more what I'm referring to, sorry. As in selling a concept to consumers. I havnt confused the terms, just the words. (Although the marketing hasn't been great either)

Poor sales can indeed be explained by a "advertising problem". They haven't sold people on the idea, therefore it hasn't sold.

If Nintendo had had better/more focussed marketing, a massive advertising push, the key features of the GamePad (as they see it) explained efficiently and effectively, huge in store presence etc, and the product STILL didn't sell, them I'd buy that the concept was failed.

Until then, I'm not jumping to that conclusion.

And answering the question "To whom is the WiiU supposed to sell" sort of backs that up: It was supposed to sell to core gamers with a plethora of 3rd party titles, casual gamers familiar with the Wii brand and Nintendo gamers. But due to poorly conceived marketing and inneffective advertising (and the knock on effects of those problems) it has failed to do so.

 

[linkboy]

The Wii U is Nintendo taking the approach they took with the DS/3DS and applying it to their home console, which was just an extension of the GBA\GC connectivity.

The problem, is that this setup works better with a handheld due to the portability factor. It totally falls apart when applied to a stationary console.

I really appreciate Off-TV play, as it's a feature I use, but I'd much rather just use the Pro controller (with Analog Triggers) instead.

 

[Brera]

People citing off-screen play for one TV households (or similar) need to REALLY go back to the Sony and MS press conferences and watch their detailed presentations on second screen functionality. Second screen is the new motion controls... In that everyone sees it as important and everyone is developing it. And honestly Nintendo is in the best position for it right now because, just like motion control, Nintendo is the ONLY console that can guaranty every system has a second screen available for it.

With that being said, it IS the new motion control. i.e. seriously cool if a dev team does something cool with it, otherwise hacked on.

I honestly don't think the Wii U is in a horrendous situation technology-wise. They are again at the front of the pack with a tech that the other two are copying, and honestly the leap here is less than it was last gen (480p to 720p was way more disparaging than 1080p in both cases just with lower polys, smaller textures, etc)

Anyway, they can turn it around but holy shit does Nintendo need to step it up on marketing. And survive to the point that they can get a new 3D Mario, SSB, and Mario Kart all out in the same year.. And if the west is currently actively shunning them, start turning shit around and making the deals that need to happen to bring them back. Also wouldnt hurt to get some of those current Sony exclusives ported to Wii U from Japan either (Vanillaware, Atlus, NIS, Namco, etc)

You are right that 2nd screen is the same as motion controls.

Both add fuck all 99% of the time and gamers neither want it nor need it.

 

[StevieP]

Saying they're "standard on all platforms" is disingenuous because it's not taking into account how deeply integrated into the platform they are. Where are the motion controls for the PS4? A Move accessory that got one 5 minute tech demo presentation back in February? They're not a significant part of PS4's strategy whatsoever, that's a fact. Nintendo has all but abandoned them with their new controller for their new console being what it is. Only Microsoft has deeply integrated motion controls into their platform, and even that is ancillary when it comes to gaming.

Controllers have accelerometers and gyro meters in them. Everyone has motion controls as a standard. Hence, it wasn't a fad.

 

[Brera]

Yamauchi had this man running NoA

He literally wouldn't take no for an answer.

Iwata has this tool.

NoA needs more of the former and less of the latter. They need some independence to go out and secure games and they need someone with balls (something I think Reggie left at Pizza Hut or VH1).

One thing I know for certain.

I would want to go up against Howard Lincoln on NeoGAF. Reggie on the other hand? Dude is just another dude

 

[shinra-bansho]

And answering the question "To whom is the WiiU supposed to sell" sort of backs that up: It was supposed to sell to core gamers with a plethora of 3rd party titles, casual gamers familiar with the Wii brand and Nintendo gamers. But due to poorly conceived marketing and inneffective advertising (and the knock on effects of those problems) it has failed to do so.

When your answer is essentially, "the target market is everyone and anyone that will buy it" then that is exemplary of poor product conception and market validation.

Throwing money at advertising products that simply aren't appealing is or would be simply throwing money in a fire; see many of Microsoft's consumer electronics ventures, see the Vita.

 

[StevieP]

Holy shiiii... I knew it was gimped. But I didn't think it was THAT gimped! 15 ft??? WHAT???? Battery life of a good bowel movement?!?!?! Yeah... no thanks Nintendo.

Gross exaggeration. I've used it on different floors of my home, my bedroom, and for hours at a time. And I barely play my consoles.

 

[Brera]

Gross exaggeration. I've used it on different floors of my home, my bedroom, and for hours at a time. And I barely play my consoles.

Do you have like a 2nd gen WiiU?

I get sync problems from 8ft away...

 

[gogogow]

Too often people blame "marketing," wherein they really only mean advertising, using it as a crutch when it's simply a failure of product.

The product has been in stores for 8 months. It is selling in the 30Ks per month in the US. Those levels of sales are not just indicative of a "marketing" problem. And if your value proposition is so convoluted that one must buy it before understanding it then that in itself is fundamentally flawed.

It is not a failure in advertising, it is a failure in conception.
It comes to the fore when one asks the question: "To whom is the Wii U supposed to sell to." And cannot find a good answer beyond Nintendo's core fanbase.

After 8 months on the market with little software the PSV's languishing wasn't due to "marketing" either.

You call it a failure of a product and others a marketing problem. Who's right and who's wrong? Let's wait till SM3DW, MK8 and SSB are released. These are Nintendo's most popular games on consoles and if the Wii U still sells 30K a month then yeah, it's a failure of a product.

Personally I think it's a combination of "concept is hard to market", confusion of the console name and no software.

PSV's problem isn't marketing, it's a product that literally "no one" wants in the West.
Sony doesn't know what to do with it. They barely release or push the system. They only come up with some bundles and let the small JP devs release some niche games for it. Even Sony's own Western devs wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

 

[The_Lump]

People own and love the Vita. They may gaze in awe at the AMOLED screen or marvel at the back touchpad.

It doesn't change that it's simply a poor product for the marketplace. The market is not wrong. The market is not stupid.

Vita was advertised well imo, that's the difference. It also received some pretty well conceived marketing.

With WiiU I simply don't see where "the market" would be drawing a conclusion from.

I'm not trying to make excuses or defend Nintendo. I'm just trying to look at it objectively.

It's Nintendo's failure, of Marketing, Advertising and PR, but I can't draw the conclusion that the product itself is simply bad. The concept of the hardware might be fine. The concept of the marketing and subsequently the advertising strategy is all wrong.

 

[Pie and Beans]

You call it a failure of a product and others a marketing problem. Who's right and who's wrong? Let's wait till SM3DW, MK8 and SSB are released. These are Nintendo's most popular games on consoles and if the Wii U still sells 30K a month then yeah, it's a failure of a product.

Personally I think it's a combination of "concept is hard to market", confusion of the console name and no software.

PSV's problem isn't marketing, it's a product that literally "no one" wants in the West.
Sony doesn't know what to do with it. They barely release or push the system. They only come up with some bundles and let the small JP devs release some niche games for it. Even Sony's own Western devs don't wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

The double standard is absolutely incredible. Catch hold of yourself!

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Do you have like a 2nd gen WiiU?

I get sync problems from 8ft away...

Is your house a labyrinth?

 

[StevieP]

Do you have like a 2nd gen WiiU?

I get sync problems from 8ft away...

That's because your console hates you.

 

[Christopher]

I rather the Off TV play be axed if that's making the development of games slow/look awful this gen for them and the gamepad be used like the DS is for a hub control

 

[Bony Manifesto]

Gross exaggeration. I've used it on different floors of my home, my bedroom, and for hours at a time. And I barely play my consoles.

To make sure we're all on the same page, what kind of distance are we talking about here? And how many walls are there between you and the console?

 

[MercuryLS]

Nintendo needs to market the benefits of using a gamepad controller vs. a regular controller. The biggest problem they face is that the software available for the machine does a very poor job of showing that. ZombiU is the only title I know of that made me say, "shit, that's very cool. it adds something to the experience". They need more titles like that along with marketing for those titles that highlight the tablet controller. Nintendo's utter failure to make software that really exploits the benefits of the controller is absolutely amazing to me. Mario Kart uses it like a big horn? Get the fuck out of here.

Marketing means nothing if you don't have substance to back it up. The software titles for Wii U don't make a compelling argument as to why the tablet controller is necessary and better than gaming on a traditional controller. The off-screen play is a niche use case at best.

With the Wii they had commercials of people using a wiimote and bowling with their family. That shit was fresh, people saw that and said "that is so fucking cool, I want one". Wii U hardware and software doesn't elicit any emotion from the market other than apathy.

 

[StevieP]

To make sure we're all on the same page, what kind of distance are we talking about here? And how many walls are there between you and the console?

25-30 feet? Generally only 1 wall, occasionally 2. My consoles are in the middle floor of my 3 floor home.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Personally, I don't think it's worth engaging in too much bickering about the range of the GamePad, as it's clearly a YMMV wildly thing. For marketing purposes, I think you can only do what they're currently doing: show it working in the same room. For me, the range is pretty impressive so long as there's line of sight. Beyond that, sometimes it works well, sometimes not at all.

 

[gogogow]

The double standard is absolutely incredible. Catch hold of yourself!

What double standard? The Vita has been out for double the time than the Wii U and is selling like shit. The Wii U is also selling like shit, it's out for like 7 months and Nintendo has yet to push it, but they are starting to push it, starting with the release games with Pikmin 3 this month.

Vita has been out what? 19 months? Are Sony gonna release anything for it or not? Their A teams already has shown absolutely zero interests in it.

Yeah, you're the one that should speak about "double standard"..... *rolleyes*

 

[StevieP]

Personally, I don't think it's worth engaging in too much bickering about the range of the GamePad, as it's clearly a YMMV wildly thing. For marketing purposes, I think you can only do what they're currently doing: show it working in the same room. For me, the range is pretty impressive so long as there's line of sight. Beyond that, sometimes it works well, sometimes not at all.

Fair. And everyone's home is built differently, and every neighbourhood and home has varying amounts of wireless noise and interference.

 

[sp3000]

That's the key thing here imo. Communicating the concept to the market. They have failed utterly at that. All of the dozen or so people I've showed the console to - from avid 'hardcore' gamer friends, my cynical recently-Nintendo-disliking brother, father-of-two middle aged boss, neutral gaming friends, to non gaming friends/family - have immediately liked it and had a great time with it (4x of whom have so far either bought/are intending to buy it soon afaik). The problem is, all except my brother either hadn't heard of it or had made up their mind about it being crap based on what they'd heard. Either way Nintendo simply isn't marketing it enough right now and isn't getting the concept accross to people.

What a hilarious excuse. It's not the marketing and no amount of marketing will change that when the product itself is garbage.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

25-30 feet? Generally only 1 wall, occasionally 2. My consoles are in the middle floor of my 3 floor home.

And it works with two walls? I was experimenting with mine and I can get about 35feet with direct line of sight with the console, but as soon as there's a single wall in the way, it drops to less than half that. Two walls? No chance. And it's not like I've got particularly thick walls or anything; it's just standard drywall.

Personally, I don't think it's worth engaging in too much bickering about the range of the GamePad, as it's clearly a YMMV wildly thing. For marketing purposes, I think you can only do what they're currently doing: show it working in the same room. For me, the range is pretty impressive so long as there's line of sight. Beyond that, sometimes it works well, sometimes not at all.

Sorry!

 

[TreasureHunterG]

You call it a failure of a product and others a marketing problem. Who's right and who's wrong? Let's wait till SM3DW, MK8 and SSB are released. These are Nintendo's most popular games on consoles and if the Wii U still sells 30K a month then yeah, it's a failure of a product.

Personally I think it's a combination of "concept is hard to market", confusion of the console name and no software.

PSV's problem isn't marketing, it's a product that literally "no one" wants in the West.
Sony doesn't know what to do with it. They barely release or push the system. They only come up with some bundles and let the small JP devs release some niche games for it. Even Sony's own Western devs wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole.

I think what's holding Wii U the most at the moment are the price, it's terrible name and it's current library.

Nintendo Land and New Super Mario Bros. U were terrible choices for flagship release titles. A mini-game collection? Really? Although NSMBU is a Mario game, it doesn't look at all a "next-gen" game. C'mon if look at THIS:

Are you honestly gonna believe this will convince the average player that your machine is a next-gen? Besides, even for the fans, NSMB2 came out a few months earlier. Nintendo did a bad decision to release two very similar games in a small time lapse.

Wii U name is terrible, indeed. The terrible name decision not being enough, alienating gamers to believe it's a Wii revision, there was little to no marketing to boost it's sales. The price tag wasn't helping either. Third-parties had little contribution to this. The launch line-up were ports (bad ones) from PS3/360 and only one exclusiviness which was badly advertised: ZombiU. This brought the conclusion that the machine is underpowered. The only game released so far that indicated somewhat of a boost over the current gen was Need for Speed Most Wanted U, but hey, was a late port at full price.

Nintendo's strategy for the release was a disaster in every single way and they'll struggle a lot to fix the damage it caused.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Controllers have accelerometers and gyro meters in them. Everyone has motion controls as a standard. Hence, it wasn't a fad.

They're a small, insignificant part of PS4 and Wii U. Saying they're standard is disingenuous, it's arguing semantics. The key point is that they're not deeply integrated into the syst.... ahh screw it, I'm not going to repeat what I just typed in the last post.

 

[The_Lump]

When your answer is essentially, "the target market is everyone and anyone that will buy it" then that is exemplary of poor product conception and market validation.

Throwing money at advertising products that simply aren't appealing is or would be simply throwing money in a fire; see many of Microsoft's consumer electronics ventures, see the Vita.

That was entirely achievable had they advertised it correctly from the start...

I'm not saying the should throw more money at it, I'm saying they should at least spend some money on it. I live in the UK and have seen it advertised on TV a grand total of 3x times since launch (2 of those were Lego City Adverts on late at night). In contrast 3DS is unavoidable. It's advertised tonnes on tv, in print, in store etc.

Incidentally people were sure 3DS was a failure of a product not too long ago (pointless gimmick, not the right control surfaces, poor battery) and low and behold, a marketing reshuffle and some canny advertising and TaDa: Successful product.

I'm not saying WiiU will be the same, I'm simply saying it was too early back then to label 3DS a failure of product design and it's too early now to do the same with WiiU (both for different reasons)

 

[The_Lump]

What a hilarious excuse. It's not the marketing and no amount of marketing will change that when the product itself is garbage.

Why would I be making an excuse for them? Honestly if you don't agree and don't want to discuss, there's no point in posting. Not everyone is a console warrior.


Maybe, even after the impending marketing/advertising push, after the market is fully aware of what WiiU can or cannot do and can or cannot offer them, after some games actually come out and are advertised, maybe it will still not sell and it will be a proven failed design concept. That's entirely possible and I'm not denying that. But the advertising part has to have actually happened first before I'm convinced a wider consumer base has rejected it.

As it stand the only failure is that of Nintendo's marketing dept. And that's a big failure.

 

[Dali]

I suppose if the Wii U had better graphics (i.e. more notable improvement over previous gen), more of the hardcore would have adopted the system and third parties may have been more into supporting new next gen tech on it.

that said, there is a large group of gamers that never would purchase the Wii U (see: Nintendo console) as their primary console so from Nintendo's perspective, its understandable.

I feel that Iwata "gets" that there's no point in having a third identical system battling it out for market share.

In this regard, I am fine with the Wii U tech as is, the games look good enough, and nice to see Nintendo in HD.

Its more that Nintendo needs to sell more systems, and I don't see how anything software-wsie beyond more Nintendo games will help with that initial uptake. Marketing is a part of selling more systems.

A Nintendo console with parity to other consoles isn't identical to the other two because Nintendo doesn't make games for the other two. If the didn't mess around with goofy controllers and just made a strong console with an online infrastructure then they'd at least be on people's radar who aren't Nintendo diehards.

 

[boyshine]

I think there are some real issues in how NCL works with greenlighting projects. I wonder how that process actually is. I wonder if there is an open forum where projects can get a green light even if Miyamoto isn't a fan or even part of the initial game idea. It seems to me that it's basically him directing which studio is doing which game, often based on a core idea of his. If so, that's incredibly unhealthy.

 

[shinra-bansho]

What double standard? The Vita has been out for double the time than the Wii U and is selling like shit. The Wii U is also selling like shit, it's out for like 7 months and Nintendo has yet to push it, but they are starting to push it, starting with the release games with Pikmin 3 this month.

7-8 months in it was quite clear from the sales that Vita was a fundamentally flawed product proposition. It had been resoundingly rejected already.

Of the Wii U's 6 full months on the market, it's weekly sales rate has been worse than the PSV's more often than not. And that is without factoring in that the 6 months on the above chart run from Mar-Aug for the PSV and thus include the doldrums of Summer, whereas the Wii U's months run from Dec-May and it is only just entering that seasonal downturn.

Other systems have had launch droughts, other systems have launched with far less prominent series than Mario. They have not however seen the lows that either of these products have - and been viable/successful thereafter.

The problem with these products isn't just software and price; there are deeper issues in their fundamental conception.

The problem isn't just marketing and advertising either.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Sorry!

Don't be. I'm not trying to be menacing, there. I just have seen this discussion before. For some, the range covers practically the whole house. For others, it gets iffy the next room over. Arguing about how reliable/unreliable it is often proves unproductive, particularly when you consider that it's not even really advertised to work outside the room that the TV is in.

 

[gogogow]

I think what's holding Wii U the most at the moment are the price, it's terrible name and it's current library.

Nintendo Land and New Super Mario Bros. U were terrible choices for flagship release titles. A mini-game collection? Really? Although NSMBU is a Mario game, it doesn't look at all a "next-gen" game. C'mon if look at THIS:

http://cloud.playerattack.com/media/title/9599/2012-06-07/WiiU_NewMarioU_2_scrn06_E3.jpg[/img
[/QUOTE]
I don't think the game needs to look "next-gen" to sell, but I do agree that it was the wrong game to launch the system with. I think the NSMB series are games that sell to casual gamers and they are not gonna buy the console at launch. Hardcore gamers do. Nintendo should've released/made a Mario 64/Galaxy game or a Zelda game. And switch the release date with NSMB.

Nintendo made a lot of stupid decisions, they made NSMB as a launch game, because it was easy to make. The name is confusing, just call it Wii 2, Super Wii, whatever.

Usually I would say that Nintendo don't need "better" graphics to compete with PS4/Xbone. But this time, the problem is that even if all third-parties release games for the Wii U, they will be PS3/360 ports. And there are 140+m of those consoles out there combined. How many will buy those games for the Wii U? Making a exclusive game is risky, because the budget isn't gonna be low and they probably rather make it for the PS4/Xbone, which they are already betting on anyway.

So I do think Nintendo are gonna be in trouble as far as third party support goes. Even if Iwata says let's wait for the games that will be released simultaneously on the PS3/360/Wii U. Does Iwata seriously believe the Wii U will sell well relative to the other versions? I really think when third parties stop making PS3/360 games, is the day Wii U will stop getting third party games entirely, except for smaller eShop/indie games and maybe some JP support like Monster Hunter etc. But it won't be enough to fill in the gap between Nintendo first party releases.

 

[gutter_trash]

So Iwata is blaming everyone else?

It was their strategy to cultivate the hardcore by getting late ports of hardcore games like mass effect 3 and batman and trying to pass them off as new games with not the same content.

Please understand Iwata, you suck!

he doesnt understand that people can buy a cheaper base 360 or PS3 and buy a cheaper year old Batman Arkham City.

 

[DragonSworne]

Do you have like a 2nd gen WiiU?

I get sync problems from 8ft away...

Same here. I can only play within the large living the Wii u is setup in. I start to lose frames if I move too far away and if I move into the kitchen, the direct line of sight is blocked and the pad no longer works. This is only 15-20 feet with no walls in the way.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Personally I don't think a Wii successor necessarily had to come earlier than 2012 to be a huge success. It just needed better specs than what came before without necessarily being a generational leap, competitively priced and a similar marketing push to what the original Wii got.

Wii U got none of that, and the first two points I'd immediately pin on the fun but ultimately unneeded tablet. I'm not really sure how 3rd parties were meant to turn some of those problems around for Nintendo, and the news that ZombiU was as big of a bomb as it was despite being one of the better examples of tablet-gameplay says something about how niche the tablet gimmick really is in comparison to the Wiimote.

EDIT: Wow this thread is moving fast. Something more on-topic with the off-screen conversation people are currently having; for what its worth, I probably use my Wii U on the tablet-only way more than with the TV on, and it streams pretty well to my bedroom which is in a different room and at least 10 feet away from the living room. A mirror in my room seems to fuck the streaming up though sometimes. Really weird Nintendo doesn't advertise this feature more because it's easily the only feature of the tablet I consistently use.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Vita was advertised well imo, that's the difference. It also received some pretty well conceived marketing.

Not sure if serious. Yes, it's advertising was clearly a #gamechanger. :/

With WiiU I simply don't see where "the market" would be drawing a conclusion from.

They had ads full of shitty dubstep to be made aware of the product.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-sFdYTX1OY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezmdN4HDEoc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dbGJieRaH0

Were they particularly good ads. Not imo. Does that mean that poor advertising is the core problem. No.

Would better awareness help? Yes. Would it fix that the Wii U is offering the answer to a question no one asked? No.

There's probably some form of irony in that people were making the same complaints about Vita marketing when it was flailing early on.

That was entirely achievable had they advertised it correctly from the start...

Advertising is not some magic bullet that fixes everything.

I'm not saying the should throw more money at it, I'm saying they should at least spend some money on it. I live in the UK and have seen it advertised on TV a grand total of 3x times since launch (2 of those were Lego City Adverts on late at night). In contrast 3DS is unavoidable. It's advertised tonnes on tv, in print, in store etc.

Incidentally people were sure 3DS was a failure of a product not too long ago (pointless gimmick, not the right control surfaces, poor battery) and low and behold, a marketing reshuffle and some canny advertising and TaDa: Successful product.

I'm not saying WiiU will be the same, I'm simply saying it was too early back then to label 3DS a failure of product design and it's too early now to do the same with WiiU.

Yes, a marketing reshuffle was what altered the 3DS trajectory and not a 30-40% price cut. Canny advertising did it. :/

The USP of the 3DS is still not the sell of the system. People don't buy it because of a 3D screen. A non-3D 3DS would sell just as well, if not better due to the potential of a lower price.

USPs are only valuable if they address a pain point.

The touch screen controller does not for either the "core" nor the "casual." Advertising would not change this.

Examining the Wii U as a product, without a major price drop, it remains essentially a system that is comparable to the PS3 and 360 but that:

• has less catalog titles
• has less third party new releases, with some publishers putting out nothing for it
• is more expensive
• has a touch screen in the controller
• has Nintendo's first party output

Three of these are major negatives, one of these is a strong positive. And one of these the market has shown they do not really care about.

To the price-conscious consumer to which the system needs to appeal to (as opposed to the high-end early adopter that the PS4 and XB1 are targeting) it doesn't really matter that it's a nominally 8th gen system. It doesn't really matter how effusive some people on here are about off-screen play either.

The problem remains that the touch screen is not something the market wants, and Nintendo's best efforts to convince people that it is have fallen flat ... the value proposition remains solely in the presence of Nintendo's first party efforts, whether that's sufficient to overcome the negative aspects listed above in a consumer value judgement against other systems (to anyone besides the Nintendo core audience) remains to be seen.

You say the market will care about the touch screen controller, they just need to promote it more? Why exactly should they care? What problem does it solve for them?

 

[Snakeyes]

I think it's time for Iwata to step down. They really need to hit it out of the par with their next CEO pick, though.

 

[casmith07]

I don't think the game needs to look "next-gen" to sell, but I do agree that it was the wrong game to launch the system with. I think the NSMB series are games that sell to casual gamers and they are not gonna buy the console at launch. Hardcore gamers do. Nintendo should've released/made a Mario 64/Galaxy game or a Zelda game. And switch the release date with NSMB.

I agree entirely. And this was the crux of my argument against many back when the Wii itself wasn't HD capable -- people took "HD" to mean photorealism, browns/greys, etc. False. New Super Mario Bros. U should have launched in 2006 on the Wii in 720p/1080p. But I digress; I agree with your assessment. Absolutely the wrong kind of launch title.

Nintendo made a lot of stupid decisions, they made NSMB as a launch game, because it was easy to make. The name is confusing, just call it Wii 2, Super Wii, whatever.

Agreed again. But I would have gone completely away from the Wii name altogether. It was bound to create confusion, particularly for their installed base, which is largely the casual crowd who doesn't read GAF, doesn't read IGN, doesn't read Kotaku, etc. They are the types of consumers who get their gaming news from reading USA Today or the Tech section of the New York Times, or seeing the latest Wii Fit demo on Good Morning America.

Usually I would say that Nintendo don't need "better" graphics to compete with PS4/Xbone. But this time, the problem is that even if all third-parties release games for the Wii U, they will be PS3/360 ports. And there are 140+m of those consoles out there combined. How many will buy those games for the Wii U? Making a exclusive game is risky, because the budget isn't gonna be low and they probably rather make it for the PS4/Xbone, which they are already betting on anyway.

At this point, graphics are reaching a stagnation point, so "better" graphics aren't necessary, but you need the capability. What we're seeing with the next gen consoles is a focus on better lighting and particle effects, draw distance, and objects on screen...all of these things heighten immersion and the play experience. I, for one, hope that next gen processing power brings better AI to games (AI hasn't really changed much since PSone and N64) but I digress once again -- "better" graphics aren't necessary, but the capability needs to be there to entice 3rd party developers to want to do projects on your console, and also to show consumers that you've got what they want in 3rd party software on top of great first party Nintendo software.

So I do think Nintendo are gonna be in trouble as far as third party support goes. Even if Iwata says let's wait for the games that will be released simultaneously on the PS3/360/Wii U. Does Iwata seriously believe the Wii U will sell well relative to the other versions? I really think when third parties stop making PS3/360 games, is the day Wii U will stop getting third party games entirely, except for smaller eShop/indie games and maybe some JP support like Monster Hunter etc. But it won't be enough to fill in the gap between Nintendo first party releases.

I'll take it one step further and say that the Wii U is quite simply in trouble, period. It has sold woefully, and their only killer app that's really got the potential to push consoles in the near future is Mario Kart 8, which I just knew they were going to announce a holiday 2013 release. They didn't -- it's coming in 2014, and so they'll miss out on the holiday shopping frenzy in the United States and probably won't sell as well as they could have.

They're going through 2005-2007 growing pains of developers moving into the HD era of gaming, and it's quite simply unacceptable given the "head start" they had on their competition. They need to expand their in-house development teams, and reach out and acquire talented, smaller studios under their 2nd party umbrella. Retro Studios shouldn't be the only notable 2nd party developer underneath Nintendo (yes, I know Monolithsoft is one, but they haven't been around that long).

 

[gogogow]

7-8 months in it was quite clear from the sales that Vita was a fundamentally flawed product proposition. It had been resoundingly rejected already.
The problem isn't just marketing and advertising either.

The Vita is a handheld, a Sony handheld at that. They have no clue what to do with that thing. They have no idea who to cater to. It also doesn't have any support from Sony themselves outside of launch and they did not push it other than creating bundles. At E3 they announced a bunch of ports for god's sakes. That thing isn't gonna sell it self without software.

The Wii U is different, Nintendo are gonna actively push the system with huge IP's. That's the difference. Like I said if it still doesn't sell with those games, yeah it's dead and no one wants it, unless Nintendo comes up with this secret unique game only possible with the Gamepad. If not, Nintendo will just say fuck it to the gamepad and market games for the console, just like what they did with the 3DS. Games, games and more games. They barely talk about the 3D feature anymore. But without 3rd party support unlike the 3DS JP support, the Wii U's life might be quite a bit shorter. Nintendo alone can't make that many games to fill the calendar year after year.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I don't think the game needs to look "next-gen" to sell, but I do agree that it was the wrong game to launch the system with. I think the NSMB series are games that sell to casual gamers and they are not gonna buy the console at launch. Hardcore gamers do. Nintendo should've released/made a Mario 64/Galaxy game or a Zelda game. And switch the release date with NSMB.

I forget who it was, but I remember somebody suggesting awhile ago that SMG2 should have been held-back as a launch day Wii U title. Honestly given how it had lower sales than the original game and the NSMB's, I'm not sure how big of a loss Nintendo would have had giving it a quick 'next-gen' coat of paint and sitting on an essentially finished game so the Wii U would have a less barren launch period. May have made the disappointing 3DWorld reveal easier for people to stomach if they'd JUST gotten another Galaxy game less than a year beforehand.

 

[DragonSworne]

I think it's time for Iwata to step down. They really need to hit it out of the par with their next CEO pick, though.

Iwata stepping down will do little good.

These guys need to be escorting from Nintendo premises immediately if you want meaningful change (these guys run the show)

Satoru Iwata
Genyo Takeda
Shigeru Miyamoto
Tatsumi Kimishima
Kaoru Takemura
Shigeyuki Takahashi
Satoshi Yamato
Susumu Tanaka
Shinya Takahashi
Hirokazu Shinshi

But I'll acceot just Iwata, Takeda, and Miyamoto leaving.

 

[Rafterman]

Same here. I can only play within the large living the Wii u is setup in. I start to lose frames if I move too far away and if I move into the kitchen, the direct line of sight is blocked and the pad no longer works. This is only 15-20 feet with no walls in the way.

Don't want to argue with others about it, but this is my exact experience. Fifteen to twenty feet, no walls and I start losing sync. As for the battery life, It's about 3 hours from full charge to dead, which compared every other wireless device I own makes it seem like no time at all. It's an extreme disappointment.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

I don't think the game needs to look "next-gen" to sell, but I do agree that it was the wrong game to launch the system with. I think the NSMB series are games that sell to casual gamers and they are not gonna buy the console at launch. Hardcore gamers do. Nintendo should've released/made a Mario 64/Galaxy game or a Zelda game. And switch the release date with NSMB.

The "no next-gen" looking I was talking about wasn't about to sell the game alone, but as game to become the role model to the machine's hardware power. If an average game look at the machine described as next-gen and see a game like NSMBU, he'll think: "Is this a next-gen?!?!? Really?!"

Like you said, this is mostly targeted toward casuals and they don't buy a new system at the launch. Hardcore gamers who buys system at launch do that because of enhanced graphical experience offered by the machine. Nintendo Land and NSMBU, being WiiU's flagship titles, didn't offered that at all.

IMO, Nintendo wanted to sell the WiiU to the casual crowd in the launch. Their E3 2012 presentation was very casual friendly and Nintendo Land was treated as the major launch title for 2012. They learned the hard way that, unlike their loyal userbase, casuals holds no loyalty to any brand.

Opiate's posts are great regarding this casual crowd migration. They left Nintendo and went after new gaming experience for iOS and Facebook, or even stopped gaming, hence most of these casuals were Wii players only who never had a videogame before in their life and only have it to play a few selected titles and anything else.

 

[Tripon]

You mean 'i don't', not no one.

More like almost everyone.

The way I see it, if they can turn around the 3DS, they can turn around the Wii U, and the way to do it is to release video games around it. If and when Mario Kart 8, Smash, Zelda U, and Mario 3DWorld is out, and the system isn't still selling, then Nintendo is in serious trouble. But we need to let Nintendo play out its current plan before already declaring that they're failures.

 

[StevieP]

I think it's time for Iwata to step down. They really need to hit it out of the par with their next CEO pick, though.

I hear don mattrick will be available in a year or two.

They're a small, insignificant part of PS4 and Wii U. Saying they're standard is disingenuous, it's arguing semantics. The key point is that they're not deeply integrated into the syst.... ahh screw it, I'm not going to repeat what I just typed in the last post.

Lets simplify the question to something that only requires a yes or no answer: does every new platform since the Wii have integrated motion control in some form as a standard?