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[SigmasonicX]

yeah i think it'd be way worse if she ignored native americans in her potter-verse in north america.

allow it.

Or, you know, she could use this reaction to be more careful about her presentation of Native Americans in future works. What was presented in Rowling's article is better than nothing, but it still has problems that can be addressed.

 

[SecretDan]

Cultural appropriation is bullshit. You do you, Rowling.

Wrap it up folks.

Some white guy says cultural appropriation is bullshit.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I don't understand how she could write about any culture other than Britain without "appropriating". I don't think this is a legitimate or harmful example of appropriation - even though legit examples do exist.

 

[Ahasverus]

The thing is, art is ABOUT appropriation, there is no pure culture, it's all about appropriation, many little settlements appropiated each other's culture and became culturally similar and so nations were formed, modern literature is a mixture of ancient transitional oral styles, music is almost hegemonized. Human society is alive because of appropriation, and art, in whatever form, is entitled to use everything representing human culture and nature for its enrichment.

 

[inky]

I can see the point of wrongly generalizing these stories under a single "Native American" banner, especially when there are people fighting to be recognized individually as separate, unique societies that are still (somehow) alive today.

I'm not versed in the subject, but from studying a bit of trickster folklore in college one can see how different some of them were.

On the other hand, fiction has always traded in direct and off hand references not only to myth, but real events and religions. I don't think she meant to appropriate anything, just color her own universe with a little bit of relatable history like she did before, but again, I can also see how marginalized societies can think of this as "colonialism".

It's a touchy subject, so, I'm not sure how else to react to this. In general, I don't care too much, but I can't blame people for fighting the fights close to their hearts.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Let the woman write what she wants. It's fiction, for God's sake.

human culture belongs to all human beings.

 

[injurai]

You're probably right. Real lose-lose situation here.

It certainly is. I think it's pretty clear what is going on here. Native American's still suffer from the generational scars. So whenever their cultural heritage plays into something, people demand it work towards restoring the people's dignity.

But then you get a lot of self proclaimed left progressives who start taking issue on behalf of first nations peoples. Arguing against the merits of fiction. Basically making huge farce of social progression at the expense of the more serious issues that surround the generational scars.

 

[Fj0823]

Isn´t it stated that people in Japan or Arabia do magical stuff their own way and have their own unique creatures/spells that explain lots of those places muggle folklore and traditions?

These guys are insane, she can write whatever she wants. It's her story.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Doesn't everyone who wants to at least do a decent job at this have done this already? why call her out in particular? Just because she is more famous ?

Just like Gaiman did, if you are going to talk about mythology and magic in America, you are going to include Native american myths or you re just doing to do a shitty ethnocentric job.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

In a perfect world, she would've consulted with some NA tribes while outlining her story to ensure that the concepts were handled with sensitivity.

But I have a hard time believing this earns a spot on the Top 100 list of shit NAs have to be pissed about.

 

[PSqueak]

Wait, what's the misrepresentation? Are skinwalkers not human/animal shapeshifters?

I read the pottermore storylets and what i got from the article is that she represented the non magic fictional natives as assholes who demonized other natives (the magical ones) basically they're going "You're getting all of this wrong, that's not how it would have happened and that's not how skin walkers work".


But in any case it's irrelevant, they're just voicing their opinion on a piece of fiction not representing them as they would like to, which everyone is entitled to as much as Rowling is entitled to write whatever she wants.

 

[samn]

I'm not sure how she would extend her wizarding world to north america without involving native american culture at any point. (If she did, it would be called a whitewash)

 

[DragonSworne]

yeah i think it'd be way worse if she ignored native americans in her potter-verse in north america.

allow it.



yikes, never mind then...

Yea, I haven't read the stories yet but if she is tarnishing the Native Americans by incorrectly villainizing them then yea... It's bullshit and JK Rowling should apologize.

 

[Wereroku]

Wrap it up folks.

Some white guy says cultural appropriation is bullshit.

Ehhh white culture is appropriated all the time as well unless you don't consider nordic cultures to be white. I mean hell Tolkien based his entire career off cultural appropriation.

Yea, I haven't read the stories yet but if she is tarnishing the Native Americans then yea...

Wait how is that tarnishing? So they are the heroes to a bunch of magical white folk who came over at some point. Also again her stupid stories are a work of fiction.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

Stop messing with the First Nation people Havent they suffered enough?

Stuff like wizards, dragons, and centaurs and whatnot was all just tall tales and fairy stories for the Western world. Putting a culture's actual traditions and practices into a fantasy context is disrespectful. Writers think they can just stick everything from Western, Eastern, Arab, Aboriginal, African 'myths' in a pot and equate them all as some big fantasy. This was one of the trappings of this whole multiple international wizarding schools idea - and clearly its occurring already.

 

[Feep]

Wrap it up folks.

Some white guy says cultural appropriation is bullshit.

I'm describing my opinion in a general discussion forum. Fuck off.

 

[Switch Back 9]

It certainly is. I think it's pretty clear what is going on here. Native American's still suffer from the generational scars. So whenever their cultural heritage plays into something, people demand it work towards restoring the people's dignity.

But then you get a lot of self proclaimed left progressives who start taking issue on behalf of first nations peoples. Arguing against the merits of fiction. Basically making huge farce of social progression at the expense of the more serious issues that surround the generational scars.

This is a big problem right here. I have a really good friend from college who grew up on a reserve in Northern Ontario. Things like this are so low on her radar because she's actually dealing with, witnessing and attempting to tackle the real and severe issues in her community and the treatment of her people in Canada. Think she gives a shit about JK Rowling using some native mythology in her books?

Give me a break.

EDIT: Yes this is purely anecdotal, but we're in a period here in Canada where our severely dirty laundry is being aired and these issues are at least beginning to get some recognition. Something like this being "big news" is super counter-productive.

 

[Walpurgis]

Hell yes. Ever heard of the Roman Empire or the Mid-Asian Chivalry?

Actually yes to number 2. The Roman's basically destroyed Egyptian culture after they took over and same with the Greeks.

Yes and yes, by the way.

I don't think you guys understand what I meant by number 2. The Aboriginal people in the Canada and the U.S. have had their culture essentially wiped out. In ancient Egypt, we have pyramids, artifacts and all sorts of things - it is the most studied kingdom ever. Most Aboriginal cultures depended on oral histories and since like 90% of them were killed - that was lost. The ones that remained were then stolen from their parents, forced into boarding schools and prohibited from speaking their native tongue or practising their cultural/religious rituals. To make matters worse, they suffered lots of discrimination and stereotypes throughout.

As for number 1, I would like a link since that sounds interesting.

 

[SecretDan]

Do people really not see the issue?

It is not a problem that she is writing about it. The problem is that she is trivializing something that is very real to people.

She is reducing an oppressed groups culture to goofy magic folklore.

 

[akira28]

I'm just saying, skin walking isn't the only way you can turn into an animal. So why is she going to take an evil monster dragon and turn it into a friendly lizard? anyway, she can still fix it, easily, if she so chooses.

i know she wanted to make a point of turning magic into a friendlier thing over all, but...they have evil wizards in the Hogwarts world.

 

[John Kowalski]

The thing is, art is ABOUT appropriation, there is no pure culture, it's all about appropriation, many little settlements appropiated each other's culture and became culturally similar and so nations were formed, modern literature is a mixture of ancient transitional oral styles, music is almost hegemonized. Human society is alive because of appropriation, and art, in whatever form, is entitled to use everything representing human culture and nature for its enrichment.

What you're referring to is acculturation, not appropriation... the former is the term for that kind of exchange and melding of cultures, appropriation refers to a specific circumstance wherein there is a relationship of social dominance from the culture that takes cultural elements upon the culture from which they are taken.

 

[EloquentM]

Let the woman write what she wants. It's fiction, for God's sake.

human culture belongs to all human beings.

is this like a new way to make the color blind argument?

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

What we really need to be asking is whether Ilvermoney has a safe space policy.

 

[Fj0823]

Rowling also paints Christian Puritans as the joke of actual witches, who just liked being ¨"burned" to troll the villages during the witch hunts....

Oh man, I´m remembering so much stuff from the books!!

 

[BearFlexington]

But she would never be able to get permission from every tribe thus some would always be offended which leads back into never being able to use it. Writers appropriate religion and culture continuously and she is stating it is fiction so while I understand the sensitivity I don't believe it is warranted.

I wouldn't go as far as to say the complaint is or isn't warranted personally because I am not of a native tribe and has a pedestrian understanding of their hardships.

I say it's a "sticky" one because not including Native-inspired themes is almost as offensive (at least in my mind). And yet it wouldn't make sense to imbed the beliefs without giving them that "Rowling touch" if you will. It's like damned if you do, damned if you don't. Perhaps an endorsement and rewrite with the assistance of a respected Native historian or religious figure (or both) is in order.

 

[DragonSworne]

Ehhh white culture is appropriated all the time as well unless you don't consider nordic cultures to be white. I mean hell Tolkien based his entire career off cultural appropriation.



Wait how is that tarnishing? So they are the heroes to a bunch of magical white folk who came over at some point. Also again her stupid stories are a work of fiction.

Oh, I thought the magic white euros were seeking refuge from the native Americans. Misread it.

 

[Feep]

As for number 1, I would like a link since that sounds interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemetism

I know one personally, and she's a very interesting person.

 

[Ganzlinger]

is this like a new way to make the color blind argument?

No, I'm talking about culture.

 

[Dryk]

All culture is appropriated. What matters is if it's treated with respect or turned into a mockery. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can tell the difference.

Yeah I'm sure we can keep the line between respectful adaptation and mockery in view an...

Gotta ban St Patrick's fest too, because he's a real Saint being worshipped today.

... maybe not ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[excelsiorlef]

Also read about the issue Rowling took Native lore and said it wasn't true it was created by anti magic people aka probably white folk to oppress wizards.

 

[Wereroku]

I don't think you guys understand what I meant by number 2. The Aboriginal people in the Canada and the U.S. have had their culture essentially wiped out. In ancient Egypt, we have pyramids, artifacts and all sorts of things - it is the most studied kingdom ever. Most Aboriginal cultures depended on oral histories and since like 90% of them were killed - that was lost. The ones that remained were then stolen from their parents, forced into boarding schools and prohibited from speaking their native tongue or practising their cultural/religious rituals. To make matters worse, they suffered lots of discrimination and stereotypes throughout.

As for number 1, I would like a link since that sounds interesting.

Dude I am really sorry to say this but the Egyptian's went through the exact same thing when the roman's came into power. Their original culture was basically eradicated most of their monument's where forgotten or pillaged to construct other structures. This of course doesn't lessen the tragedy that the native american's went through but they are not the only culture that was attacked like that.

 

[akira28]

I knew this would be a thing. because people are rabidly hungry for new Rowling material, (myself once included in this number), so if she had any misteps, people would be defending her and doing it in a clumsy and nearsighted manner.

 

[HoJu]

Do people really not see the issue?

It is not a problem that she is writing about it. The problem is that she is trivializing something that is very real to people.

She is reducing an oppressed groups culture to goofy magic folklore.

lol that's all harry potter is though. it's in line with the series.

 

[Ahasverus]

I don't think you guys understand what I meant by number 2. The Aboriginal people in the Canada and the U.S. have had their culture essentially wiped out. In ancient Egypt, we have pyramids, artifacts and all sorts of things - it is the most studied kingdom ever. Most Aboriginal cultures depended on oral histories and since like 90% of them were killed - that was lost. The ones that remained were then stolen from their parents, forced into boarding schools and prohibited from speaking their native tongue or practising their cultural/religious rituals. To make matters worse, they suffered lots of discrimination and stereotypes throughout.
.

All American (Incluiding latinamerican) culture got wiped out in terrible ways, yet we get Disney tales, novels and all kind of art representing our aboriginal myths and society. IT's the way it is, history is in the hands of the people to take what they want for their art. Good art? Bad art? Who knows, but it's not our problem either.

 

[EloquentM]

No, I'm talking about culture.

Well you're not doing a good job of it.

 

[Switch Back 9]

What we really need to be asking is whether Ilvermoney has an open-carry policy.

This is a school in 'Murica after all.

 

[TAJ]

Walpurgis, didn't you like Until Dawn? Hypocrite much?

 

[Cyan]

People should consider reading the actual text before making sweeping judgments: https://www.pottermore.com/collection-episodic/history-of-magic-in-north-america-en

This seems to be the part in dispute:

The Native American magical community and those of Europe and Africa had known about each other long before the immigration of European No-Majs in the seventeenth century. They were already aware of the many similarities between their communities. Certain families were clearly ‘magical’, and magic also appeared unexpectedly in families where hitherto there had been no known witch or wizard. The overall ratio of wizards to non-wizards seemed consistent across populations, as did the attitudes of No-Majs, wherever they were born. In the Native American community, some witches and wizards were accepted and even lauded within their tribes, gaining reputations for healing as medicine men, or outstanding hunters. However, others were stigmatised for their beliefs, often on the basis that they were possessed by malevolent spirits.

The legend of the Native American ‘skin walker’ – an evil witch or wizard that can transform into an animal at will – has its basis in fact. A legend grew up around the Native American Animagi, that they had sacrificed close family members to gain their powers of transformation. In fact, the majority of Animagi assumed animal forms to escape persecution or to hunt for the tribe. Such derogatory rumours often originated with No-Maj medicine men, who were sometimes faking magical powers themselves, and fearful of exposure.

I guess people are saying they don't want her using the skin walker legends? Otherwise it seems totally unobjectionable. Certainly ignoring Native Americans altogether and excluding them from her magical history would've been way worse.

 

[woodland]

Skinwalkers are heavily used in the Dresden Files, as well.

Cultural appropriation is bullshit. You do you, Rowling.

My thoughts exactly. This is ridiculous.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Do people really not see the issue?

It is not a problem that she is writing about it. The problem is that she is trivializing something that is very real to people.

She is reducing an oppressed groups culture to goofy magic folklore.

No, we get it.

It just lacks a certain weight when this kind of shit has gone on for many many years.

But do you know what marginalises and kills culture? Ensuring it remains closed off to outside interpretation. At that point your society becomes a dusty old museum that no one but historians want to visit.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Well you're not doing a good job of it.

how so?

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Oh no, how dare a creative piece of work draw from real life cultures?!!?

Man, I cannot wait till this cultural appropriation crying trend ignites a backlash against itself.

 

[generic_username]

I knew this would be a thing. because people are rabidly hungry for new Rowling material, (myself once included in this number), so if she had any misteps, people would be defending her and doing it in a clumsy and nearsighted manner.

No one is defending her. Most are saying this issue is not big enough to care about and there are a zillion problems Native Americans face everyday and this is not even close to being anywhere near the top.

 

[Jintor]

I believe the problem is that they don't view it as mythology. It's their religion.

It's like if there were a Potterverse book in which Jesus was a wizard who made up that whole "son of God" business. People don't like it when you call their religion fantasy.

There's a bunch of fantasy out there with angels and God and the devil and shit all over the place. People just don't like it when a popular author does it apparently. Someone already mentioned Gaiman in the thread, there's a dude who just eats mythology and mashes it with everything until it works for his stories. No direct uproar I recall, though he's had a long career and I can't keep track of everything. (Although, to be fair, I believe most of the mythologies he mined were already dead or dead-ish)

You can, but chinese and japanese people can also call you out for fucking up their folklore, which is what is happening here, they're going "what the fuck Rowling?! that's misrepresenting our folklore!"

While i personally don't agree it warrants this magnitude of a reaction, i understand where they're coming from.

I get it too, I suppose. It's the magnitude I'm wary of, not the reaction itself.

 

[teruterubozu]

Rowling writes that the myth “has its basis in fact … A legend grew up around the Native American Animagi, that they had sacrificed close family members to gain their powers of transformation. In fact, the majority of Animagi assumed animal forms to escape persecution or to hunt for the tribe. Such derogatory rumours often originated with No-Maj medicine men, who were sometimes faking magical powers themselves, and fearful of exposure.”

Responding to a question on Twitter, Rowling said that “in my wizarding world, there were no skinwalkers”, with the legend created by those without magic “to demonise wizards”.

I swear I read that 3 times and I have no idea wtf she's saying. Are all her books this ridiculous?

 

[Wereroku]

I swear I read that 3 times and I have no idea wtf she's saying. Are all her books this ridiculous?

Yeah pretty much the first ones were good but she got super wordy on the later ones.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I swear I read that 3 times and I have no idea wtf she's saying. Are all her books this ridiculous?

No she's gotten kinda ridiculous since she finished the series imo.

 

[akira28]

My thoughts exactly. This is ridiculous.

what if they were fans and they actually wanted to see her get this right?

but hey, complainers gonna complain, rowling can do what she wants and it does it even really matter, etc, etc. but lets leave the nihilism out of it.

 

[Poodlestrike]

I'd have to read the story to be able to comment on appropriation, but this is pretty far from the only use of a Skinwalker in a fantasy story. Dresden Files featured on (2, technically) to great effect.

Appropriation is, as I understand it, taking something from another culture and presenting it as your own. That's why, for instance, Rock & Roll is an example, because very rarely are the black people involved in its creation given any credit. But if this story does present it as a Native American myth, and then puts its own spin on it to incorporate it into the general setting... I'm not sure that's an issue.

Though, of course, I absolutely get being prickly about it considering how hardcore native american groups have been screwed over over the years.

 

[ZeroX03]

Walpurgis, didn't you like Until Dawn? Hypocrite much?

I wonder how Buddhists feel about Mara in SMT?