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JK Rowling under fire for appropriating Native American mythology on Pottermore
- Thread starter Guevara
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Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Is Hogwarts open or concealed carry when it comes to wands?
What did he mean by this?
Member
But a First Nation medicine man or shaman is not the same as a bearded, robed Merlin wizard shooting fireballs out his hands. One is actually real!
Not white people, but Native Muggles. Like how Europeans oppressed and demonized witches in their way, so too did muggle Native Americans decide that the Animagi were evil beings.
jack_package_200
Banned
Thats where I am at with this specific situation. Its not like those people who wear the religiously significant native american headdresses to music festivals where I can see it being offensive.
echoshifting
Banned
Yeah, I don't see any problems there.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Get what right? A historically accurate depiction of Native American culture in a fictional world where magicians with wands fly on brooms?
No matter the culture the whole thing is bullshit from the bottom to the top.
What you are talking about happened so long ago that the Romans are gone too. I'm not excusing it but there is a difference. What happened to the Aboriginal people is incredibly recent. You know those schools that I mentioned? The ones where they tortured, raped and abused Aboriginal children while stripping away their culture? The last one in Canada closed in 1996. Right now, I think Aboriginal people are trying to reclaim their culture. As far as I know, today's Egyptians don't have to worry about that.
I haven't played it but I look forward to doing so when it is on sale.
EmCeeGramr
Member
So, from what I gather from looking at Jo's Twitter, a major detail here is that skinwalkers, as they are commonly known and present in American beliefs, are actually a Muggle-created myth in the Potterverse, invented to demonize indigenous American wizards... who I guess are just Animagi, using the same basic magical process that Europeans use in HP? (I may have that last part wrong)
I can... actually see why some people would be annoyed by that? Rowling saying that common European "Halloween" depictions of the Wizarding World being Muggle distortions seems a bit different from that.
I guess I'm also not that surprised since I've come across Native activists who outright deny any mainstream anthropological explanations of human migration to the Americas as just more European lies to undermine their beliefs and justify taking the land, which comes across as more extreme than this.
I can... actually see why some people would be annoyed by that? Rowling saying that common European "Halloween" depictions of the Wizarding World being Muggle distortions seems a bit different from that.
I guess I'm also not that surprised since I've come across Native activists who outright deny any mainstream anthropological explanations of human migration to the Americas as just more European lies to undermine their beliefs and justify taking the land, which comes across as more extreme than this.
Hey there, Dementors are a real threat, alright? We need a magical wall.
Appropriation is also the flippant use of elements of other cultures because they're exotic until they become commercialised or caricatured. The thing is that it's not necessarily always a bad thing and it's impossible to gauge the long-term effects of a trend until it's much too late to do anything about it. So people get really jumpy.
The way I read it she's saying that medicine men were charlatans who spread rumours about actual magical folk in order to demonise them and avoid their own exposure as frauds.
Some Christians did still get upset about him misrepresenting the devil as a sympathetic character though
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Huh. You made a post about its Metacritic score that only really makes sense if you'd played it.
excelsiorlef
Member
Hmmmm. This kinda implies that Native spirituality and mysticism is a biological heredity thing rather than something anyone in the tribe can learn
Yeah this isn't the best story
Most of that that I've seen isn't saying "angels are really aliens" or otherwise directly contradicting the beliefs of real people. Those stories accept and build upon their religions, rather than undermining them.
I would probably say the same thing? People who have fiction passed down in their culture getting mad that a fiction writer is changing stuff to suit her own fictional book. Why should she be worried about this particular myth?
veloxStrix
Banned
Alternative Thread Title: Doctorate-holding Twitter User is confused by lack of genocide and historically accurate portrayal in series about boys playing with each other Quaffles and Bludgers.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Oooh, that's not great.
As to the former thing, honestly, if it's not always a bad thing there should probably be separate terms for it
Yeah, Game of Thrones has it.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I swear her books need a preface that states that everything in them is complete fantasy and should not be seen as an accurate depiction of reality or cultures as they exist in the real world.
echoshifting
Banned
I wonder if she would have gotten a better response from those who were offended if she'd fleshed things out a bit more. It's a short passage from a very short piece of writing we're talking about here.
Yeah that's the part that really annoys me.
The amount of times things like skinwalkers have been used in other fiction and no stink has been raised about it is rather large. Heck, everyone here would think Christians ridiculous for raising a fuss over the Shin Megami Tensei series or other JRPGs that utilize Christian mythology.
Not really the same and they don't attribute it or depict it as being from Native Americans.
No one knows what that is.
Are you serious?
EatinOlives
Member
My thoughts as well. The idea that indigenous myths part of a culture were invented to "demonize" said culture just doesn't sit right.
It's possible that she would've been accused of appropriation even if she hadn't written it this way, but to me what's troublesome is how she worked it into her universe.
We exist in the real world as does her books. So when she talks about real cultures the people she is describing have every right to offended.
Chuck Norris
Banned
She would probably get backlash if she acted like they weren't part of the history of a magical America too. Is this a no win scenario?
yes, yes, its religion so into the dustbin, etc. but it would have been really beautifully done if she actually did have culturally accurate depictions of Native American mythology and supernatural lore. These are people living in a post Christian society as animists and more, having to scrape for their very existence. And the trouble is, the author's standpoint is farther away from this than it should be, and doesn't seem to take into account the position of privilege she's in. So if they want to speak up, I support them. I'm sure a positive outcome is preferred to censorship.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
honestly the best way she could've done it. The other options are worse imo.Kind of a lose lose situation
I think the best look for her in a situation like this is just mentioning that Aboriginal Wizards existed but as Colonialism accrued they where killed and forgotten? Mirrors the real world along with acknowledging them without her directly twisting potential real Aboriginal stories to fit into her universe
she could have called a native american. they have phones now.
You're right, but that doesn't change the fact that most of us who do would be laughing over it if such an event was to occur.
sunshine and gasoline
Banned
Her best bet might have been to just mention it in the passing. Offer no information besides acknowledging it. I suspect that even then some people might be a bit upset but not as much as what is currently going on.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
And?
So... optimally written Harry Potter backstory is more important than the marginalization of an entrenched people.
.... and you're acting like a preface changes anything when it literally changes nothing. Telling someone "it's not you though" won't stop them from taking offense.
and to speak up about it and take action if necessary. boy this is fun. we should hang out more often, chimpy.
It could be argued that, culturally, the greeks conquered the romans as much as the other way around, if not more.
So were witches/cunning women? Also hermetical studies existed; read Paracelsus.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Can someone break down the issue here?
Because other cultures, such as Mexican, have cultural aspects and celebrations of their own appropriated on a global scale in an offensive fashion. Any reason it's mentioned with JK and it wasn't mentioned in a major fashion with basically anything else? I mean was it a big deal in Twilight (no clue I'm asking) when the native americans were half naked jean shorts male models?
Because other cultures, such as Mexican, have cultural aspects and celebrations of their own appropriated on a global scale in an offensive fashion. Any reason it's mentioned with JK and it wasn't mentioned in a major fashion with basically anything else? I mean was it a big deal in Twilight (no clue I'm asking) when the native americans were half naked jean shorts male models?
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
It's incorporating things the book readers know about. Animagi are Wizards who can assume animal form. At least in the UK, the ability was implied to be rare.
Zomba13
Member
I think it's fine. In her work, in her magic fake universe, the actual origin of certain myths, legends and religions are different than the actual origin from our real world. She isn't writing a documentary or history book, it's a work of fiction.
If she was writing about real Native American mythology and said "actually, it was made up by white anti-magic people to tarnish wizards and witches" then yeah, that is a problem because that is incorrect and not something that should be in a book about facts, but saying that in her fake magic world with fake non-real character and secret hidden worlds then it's fine.
Like how in Persona/SMT gods and mythological creatures are all demons. Vishnu is a demon. Obviously that isn't true because it's a work of fiction that takes religious gods and angels and demons and other mythological creatures and just says "what if they are all real, but are demons? And you can even make them by mixing together a bunch of unrelated demons?"
I mean, yeah, I can see it sucking when a myth/legend that is part of your religion is included in something but changed by the author to fit their world but then again it's something that happens all the time in fiction. I mean isn't there a currently running TV show in America about Lucifer/Satan being a nightclub owner/playboy who also solves crimes? Like, that is glorifying and misrepresenting the personification of evil in Christianity. I'm sure some Christians have an issue with that but I think that the show-runners should be able to do that just like I think Rowling should be able to do this.
And I'm not saying "they do this to Christianity so stop complaining when they do it to something else" I'm just saying this sort of thing is super common and it's something I love about fiction. Seeing different authors and creators put their own spin on various well known (and not as well known) myths, legends and creatures. As a kid Disney's Hercules got me super into Greek and Roman myths and I love finding out about obscure myths and legendary creatures from games and then looking up the actual origins and the actual myths.
If she was writing about real Native American mythology and said "actually, it was made up by white anti-magic people to tarnish wizards and witches" then yeah, that is a problem because that is incorrect and not something that should be in a book about facts, but saying that in her fake magic world with fake non-real character and secret hidden worlds then it's fine.
Like how in Persona/SMT gods and mythological creatures are all demons. Vishnu is a demon. Obviously that isn't true because it's a work of fiction that takes religious gods and angels and demons and other mythological creatures and just says "what if they are all real, but are demons? And you can even make them by mixing together a bunch of unrelated demons?"
I mean, yeah, I can see it sucking when a myth/legend that is part of your religion is included in something but changed by the author to fit their world but then again it's something that happens all the time in fiction. I mean isn't there a currently running TV show in America about Lucifer/Satan being a nightclub owner/playboy who also solves crimes? Like, that is glorifying and misrepresenting the personification of evil in Christianity. I'm sure some Christians have an issue with that but I think that the show-runners should be able to do that just like I think Rowling should be able to do this.
And I'm not saying "they do this to Christianity so stop complaining when they do it to something else" I'm just saying this sort of thing is super common and it's something I love about fiction. Seeing different authors and creators put their own spin on various well known (and not as well known) myths, legends and creatures. As a kid Disney's Hercules got me super into Greek and Roman myths and I love finding out about obscure myths and legendary creatures from games and then looking up the actual origins and the actual myths.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
When expressing yourself in any form don't ever use elements from my culture or resort to using stereotypes which are offensive to me.
If you're going to employ that line of thinking then you better be prepared to apply it to every culture and everyone who may be offended by your interpretation.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
she could have, yes
im not necessarily defending her but of all the options she had this is one of the least worst(?).
Wouldnt fit.
Anyway, I kind of figured this would happen as soon as I heard rumblings about her universe crossing the pond. Figured shed either fall into the trap of ignoring Native culture all together and or include it and fuck up details/representation. Either way shed be wrong. TBH, Im not sure why she decided it would be worth the headache.
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