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[akira28]

When expressing yourself in any form don't ever use elements from my culture or resort to using stereotypes which are offensive to me.

If you're going to employ that line of thinking then you better be prepared to apply it to every culture and everyone who may be offended by your interpretation.

actions have consequences, who would have thunk it. If I make a picture book of me doing things to a Koran, I would expect some angry tweets at very least.


take a work of fiction, harmless work, something beloved, Little Women. Now, suddenly all White Anglo Saxon Protestants ate babies. No big deal, has some small effect on the story, but its all fiction, right?

 

[Gouty]

Has anyone ever just tried not acknowledging the mob?

 

[woodland]

As a kid Disney's Hercules got me super into Greek and Roman myths and I love finding out about obscure myths and legendary creatures from games and then looking up the actual origins and the actual myths.

Don't forget Rick Riordan and his use of Greek/Egyptian/Norse mythology, Ink's use of Japanese mythology, etc.

 

[Jack Remington]

These people are going to end up making our culture poorer.

If these people had been around 50 years ago, we wouldn't have half the music we have today, among other things.

 

[CloudyTuba]

All arts are dead without being able to take inspiration from outside sources. Appropriation outrage is like 90% bullshit. If you got outraged every time fiction took inspiration from old cultures, just about the entire entertainment industry would cease to be. How about we just celebrate and enjoy each others cultures instead of segregating ourselves? Cultures evolve, mix, change, separate, merge again, throughout history. Dont forget them, retain what is important to you and live your life however you want to, but let it happen if it's going to happen. It's the natural course of things, just enjoy each other. Better than putting up walls. Lots of my favorite fiction has taken inspiration from other cultures besides that of whoever was writing it.

Uh, this would have been nice to tell pilgrims lol

Mistakes were made...no one is arguing that haha
I'd like to think people have grown as a whole over the past few hundred years since then...right? Guys?

 

[echoshifting]

I think it's fine. In her work, in her magic fake universe, the actual origin of certain myths, legends and religions are different than the actual origin from our real world. She isn't writing a documentary or history book, it's a work of fiction.

If she was writing about real Native American mythology and said "actually, it was made up by white anti-magic people to tarnish wizards and witches" then yeah, that is a problem because that is incorrect and not something that should be in a book about facts, but saying that in her fake magic world with fake non-real character and secret hidden worlds then it's fine.

Like how in Persona/SMT gods and mythological creatures are all demons. Vishnu is a demon. Obviously that isn't true because it's a work of fiction that takes religious gods and angels and demons and other mythological creatures and just says "what if they are all real, but are demons? And you can even make them by mixing together a bunch of unrelated demons?"

I mean, yeah, I can see it sucking when a myth/legend that is part of your religion is included in something but changed by the author to fit their world but then again it's something that happens all the time in fiction. I mean isn't there a currently running TV show in America about Lucifer/Satan being a nightclub owner/playboy who also solves crimes? Like, that is glorifying and misrepresenting the personification of evil in Christianity. I'm sure some Christians have an issue with that but I think that the show-runners should be able to do that just like I think Rowling should be able to do this.

And I'm not saying "they do this to Christianity so stop complaining when they do it to something else" I'm just saying this sort of thing is super common and it's something I love about fiction. Seeing different authors and creators put their own spin on various well known (and not as well known) myths, legends and creatures. As a kid Disney's Hercules got me super into Greek and Roman myths and I love finding out about obscure myths and legendary creatures from games and then looking up the actual origins and the actual myths.

I find myself going back and forth a lot on whether Rowling is in the wrong here, so I'm not really sure where I stand, but I like your post. Good points. It is her imaginary world.

 

[John Kowalski]

Has anyone ever just tried not acknowledging the mob?

Not acknowledging native americans? I don't think that's uncommon.

 

[Mighty Chin]

So this is today's outrage?

I got zero issue with this. Looking forward to more from JK

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

All arts are dead without being able to take inspiration from outside sources. Appropriation outrage is like 90% bullshit. If you got outraged every time fiction took inspiration from old cultures, just about the entire entertainment industry would cease to be. How about we celebrate and enjoy each others cultures instead of segregating ourselves?

Uh, this would have been nice to tell pilgrims lol

 

[billy beane]

Getting upset over fictional, not real things is a little silly. I'm all for supporting Native Americans, but Harry Potter isn't real.

 

[Goro Majima]

The Golden Compass came hard at Judeo-Christian beliefs and we survived that. Although there were lots of angry people it still sold well.

 

[Ri'Orius]

The way I read it she's saying that medicine men were charlatans who spread rumours about actual magical folk in order to demonise them and avoid their own exposure as frauds.

She also establishes that some wizards became respected medicine men and shamans in their tribes. So some medicine men were legit, others were charlatans, which sounds fair to me.

I really think she was trying to use skinwalkers as the Native American equivalent of historical European views on witchcraft. But while most Westerners have come to accept that the historical views (including those of various religious authorities) on witchcraft are outdated and wrong, it looks like that's not the case for modern practitioners of Native American religions.

 

[SheSaidNo]

Not sure what the issue is in this case. Usually appropriation causes harm, I'm struggling to see the harm in this case. Is the harm that she is creating a fictional backstory to an real idea? She does this as well with the salem witch trials, creating a fiction for the real historic thing. Is it harmful just because it's not her culture that she created a fictional backstory to? She's not stealing the idea, she attributes it to native americans.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

actions have consequences, who would have thunk it. If I make a picture book of me doing things to a Koran, I would expect some angry tweets at very least.


take a work of fiction, harmless work, something beloved, Little Women. Now, suddenly all White Anglo Saxon Protestants ate babies. No big deal, has some small effect on the story, but its all fiction, right?

I don't think you get my point.

As for the other thing: Little Women was based somewhat in reality. The world of Harry Potter is so divorced from reality that people aren't going to think there really was a clash between real magical Native Americans and their muggle counterparts.

As I said before: It's all bullshit from the bottom to the top.

 

[JC Lately]

.

And I'm not saying "they do this to Christianity so stop complaining when they do it to something else" I'm just saying this sort of thing is super common and it's something I love about fiction. Seeing different authors and creators put their own spin on various well known (and not as well known) myths, legends and creatures. As a kid Disney's Hercules got me super into Greek and Roman myths and I love finding out about obscure myths and legendary creatures from games and then looking up the actual origins and the actual myths.

The best part is when you read up on the original myths and religions, to discover they are even better than whatever game/book/cartoon had portrayed them to be.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

She didnt have to be specific about using th Navajo tribe, medicine men, and skinwalkers. She could have constructed an imaginary tribe and built mythology around them.

By including real tribes and actual practitioners and then redefining what their roles are -- i.e. medicine men were fakes and skinwalkers are good guys -- then she is trampling over the culture of the Navajo people. Work of fiction or not.

Perhaps if she included some education about the Navajo people about the types of struggles they had to endure, then some fiction may be okay. You take from a tribe, you should give something back in return

Edit: Thia board is so dang white. It's hilarious reading some of these posts.

 

[akira28]

The Golden Compass came hard at Judeo-Christian beliefs and we survived that. Although there were lots of angry people it still sold well.

well they're certainly a lot more powerful than the scattered nations and tribes of America. I remember the controversy, and that's all this is too, so far. They have a case, they haven't said anything unreasonable. And people are bound not to give a fuck because "Holy shit new 'arry Potter".

I don't think you get my point.

well your prefaced statement didn't apply to anything here, so I just kind of kept on keeping on.

 

[Valhelm]

I don't see how this Rowling example is very harmful. She's not attempting to represent Native American traditions any more than the books attempted to represent English occult traditions.

Although I guess there's a slight difference. European magical traditions were always considered illegitimate and are no longer practiced, while Native American occultism is synonymous with religion.

 

[PSqueak]

Can someone break down the issue here?

Because other cultures, such as Mexican, have cultural aspects and celebrations of their own appropriated on a global scale in an offensive fashion. Any reason it's mentioned with JK and it wasn't mentioned in a major fashion with basically anything else? I mean was it a big deal in Twilight (no clue I'm asking) when the native americans were half naked jean shorts male models?

As a mexican i can tell you that we're incredibly lax about this sort of thing, we love the fuck out of Speedy Gonzalez, for example.

They're probably worried about the TREMENDOUS reach Rowling has when it comes to the people who consume HP media.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Pretty much every myth has been mined repeatedly, including that one. But I guess they saw a rich AF target and saw dollar signs.

It's not like they can actually sue her because of it, like Jeep doesn't pay a penny for calling their cars Apache, Cherokee, etc.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Plus she stole off of her character names from Troll.

Can't wait for

Spoiler

Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them

Michael Moriarty and the dude from the Neverending Story are the only Harry Potters to me.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

It's far more insulting that she thought one school in ALL of Asia and one in ALL of Africa makes sense while Europe gets three.

 

[DrForester]

Were Native American groups critical of the Twilight books?

I am not trying to make a "Well if they didn't like this, why is this a problem?" statement, or criticize them for going after Rwoling. I am just genuinely curious if there was similar concern given the wide reach of those books.

It's far more insulting that she thought one school in ALL of Asia and one in ALL of Africa makes sense while Europe gets three.

Maybe you should read what she wrote, because that's not what she wrote. She is going into detail of the worlds 11 biggest schools, and makes it clear that there are small schools all over the place. She also has not finished revealing the location or names of 4 of the 11 schools yet.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

As a mexican i can tell you that we're incredibly lax about this sort of thing, we love the fuck out of Speedy Gonzalez, for example.

They're probably worried about the TREMENDOUS reach Rowling has when it comes to the people who consume HP media.

Yeah every Mexican friend I've had doesn't really have an issue with say Cinco de Mayo being the excuse for white people to put on Mexican hats, say bad spanish phrases and drink like crazy while they pretend tex-mex is the real deal.

As a Colombian I can't even begin to think what that's like since we don't really have anything culturally appropriated. Unless Narcos count lol.

 

[jack_package_200]

Were Native American groups critical of the Twilight books?

I am not trying to make a "Well if they didn't like this, why is this a problem?" statement, or criticize them for going after Rwoling. I am just genuinely curious if there was similar concern given the wide reach of those books.

Maybe because Meyer is so beneath JK. The Twilight Series was schlock. Many see harry potter above that. They expect better out of JK

 

[akira28]

Are the native americans even aware that they're in Twilight?

I'm sure they couldn't have expected much. But I was up last night clicking on some Ilvermorny thing. Hell, I even memorized how to spell the damned thing.

 

[DrForester]

Maybe because Meyer is so beneath JK. The Twilight Series was schlock. Many see harry potter above that. They expect better out of JK

That would make sense.

 

[echoshifting]

It's far more insulting that she thought one school in ALL of Asia and one in ALL of Africa makes sense while Europe gets three.

Hmmm, that's not so good.

I am starting to think that her decision to provide details about the wizarding world beyond Europe was a mistake, even if it's something fans have been clamoring for for a long time. All of these issues wouldn't have surfaced if she had put a bit more time and effort into properly fleshing them out, but it doesn't seem like she really wanted to do that.

Maybe you should read what she wrote, because that's not what she wrote. She is going into detail of the worlds 11 biggest schools, and makes it clear that there are small schools all over the place. She also has not finished revealing the location or names of 4 of the 7 schools yet.

Are Beaux-Batons and Durmstrang considered two of the biggest schools? Does it make sense for the lion's share of the largest schools to be located in Europe?

 

[MHWilliams]

Can someone break down the issue here?

Because other cultures, such as Mexican, have cultural aspects and celebrations of their own appropriated on a global scale in an offensive fashion. Any reason it's mentioned with JK and it wasn't mentioned in a major fashion with basically anything else? I mean was it a big deal in Twilight (no clue I'm asking) when the native americans were half naked jean shorts male models?

I'm not sure why you think there wasn't Native American backlash of Twilight. Of course there was.

The Truth Versus Twilight

Made famous by the recent pop-culture phenomenon Twilight, the Quileute people have found themselves thrust into the global spotlight. Their reservation, a once quiet and somewhat isolated place, is now a popular tourist destination for thousands of middle-school-age girls and their families. In the wake of the popularity of the book and film saga, the Quileute Tribe has been forced to negotiate the rights to their own oral histories, ancient regalia and mask designs, and even the sanctity of their cemetery.

Quileute responses to the Twilight book and film series have been as diverse as the community itself. Some have enjoyed the newfound public interest in their culture, while others find the whole story and all the attention distasteful. And still others are not interested in the hype and see this phenomenon as a phase that will fade soon enough.

'Twilight' Series Fakes Authenticity, Rips Off Quileute Nation

In this particular series, the werewolves are supposedly descended from the Pacific Northwest's Quileute Nation — which, by the way, is still very much alive. Despite that, there's no evidence that the series' creator, Stephenie Meyer, asked the Quileute for permission to steal and utterly distort their sacred origin stories and then line her pockets by way of their exploitation.

This is not a new phenomenon, but there's been a drastic uptick in recent decades.

New Moon -- old stereotypes?

Jacob spends a good portion of the film without a shirt, in accordance with the longstanding cinematic stereotype that Indigenous people like to forego clothes – even in chilly Forks, which has nearly the highest annual rainfall on the continent. Alas, Jacob and Bella’s powerful but tortuous attraction to each other cannot truly be requited – because unlike those of Native communities, the cultural traditions of Hollywood must be respected.

Perhaps the most troubling issue with New Moon and the entire Twilight series is the use of the wolf as the basis for Quileute identity. The Quileute people do not even have a wolf myth in their cultural lexicon – although other Tribes such as the Seneca and Cherokee do. In New Moon, when members of the Tribe come under stress or confront a significant challenge, their common reaction is to morph from a sentient human being into a feral beast whose favored mode of behavior is bloody violence.

The problem with Quileute werewolves

Non-Natives have a long history of borrowing Native legends, stories, concepts, beliefs, and practices. And then simplifying them, changing them, sometimes bastardizing them beyond recognition. The result is a mishmash of mistakes and stereotypes amid nuggets of actual information.

No wonder people don't understand Indians. Their primary source is popular media such as the Twilight books. Which are based on "genuine Quileute stories," according to Meyer.

Just because you didn't see it or remember a thread about it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Maybe because Meyer is so beneath JK. The Twilight Series was schlock. Many see harry potter above that. They expect better out of JK

this is the lady who was coming up with names for schools in other languages and used google translate. I think people are holding her to an INCREDIBLY high standard because the book was such a phenomenon.

I'm not sure why you think there wasn't Native American backlash of Twilight. Of course there was.

The Truth Versus Twilight


'Twilight' Series Fakes Authenticity, Rips Off Quileute Nation


New Moon -- old stereotypes?


Just because you didn't see it or remember a thread about it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I was asking if there was similar backlash because I don't recall it making the news to the point it became mainstream. Guess I wasn't looking hard enough, thanks for the links.

 

[Valhelm]

People should consider reading the actual text before making sweeping judgments: https://www.pottermore.com/collection-episodic/history-of-magic-in-north-america-en

This seems to be the part in dispute:

I guess people are saying they don't want her using the skin walker legends? Otherwise it seems totally unobjectionable. Certainly ignoring Native Americans altogether and excluding them from her magical history would've been way worse.

To me, the most objectionable part is the idea of a hemisphere-wide "Native American community".

 

[CLEEK]

My eyes rolled so much when I read this non-controversy that my retinas have detached.

It does highlight in today's social media led outrage culture, how you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Rowling has been criticised for Harry Potter being overly white. When she include other ethnicities, she gets slammed for cultural appropriation. It's idiotic.

 

[PSqueak]

It's far more insulting that she thought one school in ALL of Asia and one in ALL of Africa makes sense while Europe gets three.

America get two: One in english (USA), One in portuguese (Brazil), every spanish speaking country and the francophone part of canada is shit out of luck.

 

[gabrielt16]

I can only assume that some people didn't even bother reading what she wrote since before she talked about the 11 schools she said that most families home school their kids through courses that are provided. Those 11 schools are just the most respected institutions not the only places you can learn magic at.

As for the Native American thing she saying that native american muggles got jealous over magical native Americans thus they created the legend/lie that Animagi got their power by sacrificing a family member in an effort to discredit them.

 

[akira28]

America get two: One in english (USA), One in portuguese (Brazil), every spanish speaking country and the francophone part of canada is shit out of luck.

Quebecois only want to use Quebecer magic anyway.

 

[Cocaloch]

European magical traditions were always considered illegitimate

You're actually dead wrong here. Depending on who you listen to white/positive folk magic in the west doesn't go away until the general Entzauberung of the 17/18/19th century.

 

[captive]

i guess i dont understand the problem. I read a lot of threads about how white hollywood is, and people lament white writers only writing white characters and that they should write non-white characters to be more diverse.
Is the problem a white writer using another culture's history? OR is it that people dont feel she treated it with enough respect? If its the former i dont see how you can expect white writers to include more diverse characters without getting in trouble, like this. If its the latter, then fine, i guess.

Maybe because Meyer is so beneath JK. The Twilight Series was schlock. Many see harry potter above that. They expect better out of JK

Better? They're complete and total fictional, children's books. Clearly written for children, goofy, aloof, full of nonsensical stuff. No doubt harry potter is better written than twilight, but we're not talking JRR Tolkein here.

 

[woodland]

To me, the most objectionable part is the idea of a hemisphere-wide "Native American community".

I mean, the easy explanation for that would be that the enhanced ability of communication enabled by witches (which she talks about in part 1) allowed a much broader portion of the community to stay in touch and homogenize certain customs.

But whatever

 

[Admiral Woofington]

It's far more insulting that she thought one school in ALL of Asia and one in ALL of Africa makes sense while Europe gets three.

I found it very funny that she decided to put the magic school in SA in Brazil when like basically every other country in there speaks spanish, so we're out of luck.

Babel fishicus my lecturicus!

 

[CLEEK]

Perhaps if she included some education about the Navajo people about the types of struggles they had to endure, then some fiction may be okay. You take from a tribe, you should give something back in return.

I love how you're giving tips to JK Rowling on how to write novels.

 

[Big One]

Do people really not see the issue?

It is not a problem that she is writing about it. The problem is that she is trivializing something that is very real to people.

She is reducing an oppressed groups culture to goofy magic folklore.

Everything has a right to be critiqued, parodied and etc. There's nothing oppressive or offensive about someone writing about how a myth in the real world is a myth in the fictional world.

 

[DrForester]

Are Beaux-Batons and Durmstrang considered two of the biggest schools? Does it make sense for the lion's share of the largest schools to be located in Europe?

In the fictional universe that she created she can have 3 schools in Europe if she wants to. I don't see a problem with that. And I'd be shocked if at least one of the other schools isn't in Asia. She hinted that one of them might be in Australia.

 

[hupla]

Better? They're complete and total fictional, children's books. Clearly written for children, goofy, aloof, full of nonsensical stuff. No doubt harry potter is better written than twilight, but we're not talking JRR Tolkein here.

well it literally sounds like you're talking about JRR Tolkein

 

[jack_package_200]

Quebecois only want to use Quebecer magic anyway.

Like their pornography, Quebecois need it completely tailored to them.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I believe the problem is that they don't view it as mythology. It's their religion.

It's like if there were a Potterverse book in which Jesus was a wizard who made up that whole "son of God" business. People don't like it when you call their religion fantasy.

Modern religions are ripped off in stories all the time. Star Wars is a mish mash of random Asian cultures and religions that George Lucas thought was cool

 

[Valhelm]

My eyes rolled so much when I read this non-controversy that my retinas have detached.

It does highlight in today's social media led outrage culture, how you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Rowling has been criticised for Harry Potter being overly white. When she include other ethnicities, she gets slammed for cultural appropriation. It's idiotic.

"Outrage culture" only exists because expressing your opinion is much easier now, thanks to Twitter. Because online news sources believe it's acceptable to write a story exposing the offended sensibilities of just a few people, these conflicts are amplified in a way they would never be otherwise.

There's not really a Catch-22 in this case, because different people are offended by different things. Many social justice advocates loved Rowling due to her openness to the idea of a black Hermione, and many others were pleased at her inclusion of non-Western traditions in her upcoming material.

You're actually dead wrong here. Depending on who you listen to white/positive folk magic in the west doesn't go away until the general Entzauberung of the 17/18/19th century.

That's a good point. Suppose I meant that, under Catholic, Protestant, and presumably Orthodox hegemony, non-Christian supernatural traditions were generally considered illegitimate by the clergy.

Better? They're complete and total fictional, children's books. Clearly written for children, goofy, aloof, full of nonsensical stuff. No doubt harry potter is better written than twilight, but we're not talking JRR Tolkein here.

Bruh, Tolkien isn't Dostoevsky. JRR wrote genre fiction that was great, but not leagues and leagues beyond Harry Potter.

 

[MHWilliams]

I was asking if there was similar backlash because I don't recall it making the news to the point it became mainstream. Guess I wasn't looking hard enough, thanks for the links.

This one just happened to be written of the Guardian during the era of Twitter. Only real difference.

This is my larger point: People always felt this way. It's not "outrage culture" or anything new. The difference is those people now have direct access to creators and outlets with their complaints, whereas before it was left to their local newspaper and family members, if they felt comfortable speaking at all.

People are going to make mistakes. And there needs to be room to make innocent mistakes, but also room to call out those issues.

"Outrage culture" only exists because expressing your opinion is much easier now, thanks to Twitter. Because online news sources believe it's acceptable to write a story exposing the offended sensibilities of just a few people, these conflicts are amplified in a way they would never be otherwise.

Heh. Beat to the same point by a few minutes.

 

[Zackat]

It's far more insulting that she thought one school in ALL of Asia and one in ALL of Africa makes sense while Europe gets three.

There could have been more in the past. Does she give any kind of timelines on these schools yet?

 

[Admiral Woofington]

There could have been more in the past. Does she give any kind of timelines on these schools yet?

Nah. In theory I don't think she ever specified these were the only schools in the region, just seems like she wanted to mention schools from different regions.

 

[CLEEK]

In the fictional universe that she created she can have 3 schools in Europe if she wants to. I don't see a problem with that. And I'd be shocked if at least one of the other schools isn't in Asia. She hinted that one of them might be in Australia.

Real world universities originated in Western Europe. The three oldest in the world are in Italy, France and England. I can't see anything offensive about have a wizard equivalent school be the same.