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JK Rowling under fire for appropriating Native American mythology on Pottermore
- Thread starter Guevara
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Unless wizarding society is completely separate in America, and it certainly doesn't look to be, I have to imagine they were involved with a lot of the social issues.
I think it makes for a more interesting and complex world when you have real world aspects bleeding in.
ShadowSwordmaster
Banned
Which can be a problem in a lot of fiction set in the "real world".
They made the flames harmless, pretended to scream, then laughed it off with their friends and went to another village to do it again. It's in the books.
You've never seen the series, have you?
Last time I checked africans didn't enjoy being enslaved.
Personally, I see a huge ethical difference between cultural or image appropriation and mythological appropriation.
Writers should be able to use folklore, stories, traditions, mythologies and even history in fictional writing. That being said, I do agree that there needs to be some thought as to the feels those groups might have regarding the product of those.
That also being said, being outraged or calling for people to not use some mythology without the consent or approval of specific groups borders on potentially being a censorship issue (though that not really being the case here with Rowling.)
In this specific case, I do think Rowling should have put more thought in how the story might be perceived by people the way it has now. I'm almost certain there was a way for her to use the it in a way that wouldn't have the effect it had.
Writers should be able to use folklore, stories, traditions, mythologies and even history in fictional writing. That being said, I do agree that there needs to be some thought as to the feels those groups might have regarding the product of those.
That also being said, being outraged or calling for people to not use some mythology without the consent or approval of specific groups borders on potentially being a censorship issue (though that not really being the case here with Rowling.)
In this specific case, I do think Rowling should have put more thought in how the story might be perceived by people the way it has now. I'm almost certain there was a way for her to use the it in a way that wouldn't have the effect it had.
echoshifting
Banned
You've never seen the series, have you?
DrForester pls, the way slavery is treated with regards to house elves is a pandora's box of issues that could consume all of gaf in a whirling vortex of nightmare posts
Admiral Woofington
Member
what about the ones who were drowned? We already know that breathing under water requires either specific magic or magical items. And with a public near them, and being tied up, hard to imagine her reasoning.
eu pfhor ia
Neo Member
ha, someone send this idea to Sherman Alexie. Mockery and humor is the best response to this kind of thing, if you ask me, and he'd be great at it.
So she can't or shouldn't write about other cultures that practiced magic? That seems pretty absurd.
The whole charm of the series is the fun spins that she puts on our humdrum world. She's made a relatively conscious attempt to include other races and societies, but the trick about inclusion is that for the sake of the world she's building those magical traditions have to be altered to fit an overarching mythos.
I hope she takes none of these complaints to heart. I would love to see how she approaches voodoo, obeah, zombies and other mystical North American traditions.
The whole charm of the series is the fun spins that she puts on our humdrum world. She's made a relatively conscious attempt to include other races and societies, but the trick about inclusion is that for the sake of the world she's building those magical traditions have to be altered to fit an overarching mythos.
I hope she takes none of these complaints to heart. I would love to see how she approaches voodoo, obeah, zombies and other mystical North American traditions.
Nope, check the new article published today. Witches/wizards died. Presumably because other wizards were running the trials too I guess.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Just showing that Slavery in Rowling's universe would not be limited to just being a muggle problem and that Wizards were perfectly capable of enslaving others.
From the Prisoner of Azkaban, in the story Bathild Bagshot calls MOST of the burnings completely pointless and states that almost all the victims were muggles, there were little to no Wizard casualties
EDIT: Seems the Salem Witch Trials were a USA only exception
Hell that was a major theme in the books with the 'Humans First' stuff spouted by the Death Eaters.
- House elves were not forcefully enslaved
- The hypothetical scenario was of Muggles enslaved magical people, not the other way around
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/W...th_Century_Was_Completely_Pointless_—_discuss
According to this Wiki, that was only in reference to 14th Century witch burnings.
I wonder if JK Rowling considers Joan of Arc a witch (burned in 15th century)?
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Yes they were. Even if most house elves have been successfully brainwashed for generations to think being slaves was the greatest thing ever, house elves that did not believe that were still forced to perform their duties.
Since Rowling made a big deal about African Wizards being skilled at wandless magic, an assumption could be made that the entire African Slave population were muggles. At least at first. While rare, she established that muggle borns are possible, and I don't see how those would fit in. I agree Muggles enslaving them would be unlikely. Even without any training, emotional moments could result in devastating magic.
The Witch Trials were apparently so bad that it lead to the creation of the Magic Congress so I guess it wasn't all fun and games as depicted in Azkaban.
It's hard to fool other wizards so yea I imagine a number died.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I just can't believe people are shrugging this off and saying "I hope she takes none of these complaints to heart" while actual Native Americans are just asking her to be respectful of their cultures.
Like do you guys think they have no basis to speak up after how they have been treated in media thus far?
Like do you guys think they have no basis to speak up after how they have been treated in media thus far?
While I'm not saying they don't have a case for saying "be more respectful" (they do), I will say that saying "Don't use it, its ours" is bs.
MHWilliams
Member
Tweet from the article in the opening.
https://twitter.com/NativeApprops/status/707272171505238016?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
The rest of that particular person's arguments can be found here and here.
Excerpts:
Her thrust seems to be that Rowling did not do the legwork necessary to really understand the culture she was translating over. And worse in her mind, it's giving people an erroneous view of her religion and the religion of others like her. But she's only one person with her specific viewpoint. The others in the article have their own takes, because none of these people are related in any way, shape, or form.
Honestly she probably didn't do the legwork for almost any of this shit. Japan's magical school is literally called Magic Place in Japanese.
Japan is going to have to hold that L for all of time now.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I think it's totally fine for them to say that. Obviously thay can't use the law to force that to happen but I think it's fine.
It looks that way to me.
So what I'm getting from her statement is A. "she is misrepresenting us and we don't like it" and B. "people asking to understand what these beliefs actually are don't get to know because it's not your tradition".
That seems like an odd way to go about it
I think myth, religion and regional folklore are all fair ground to be remixed and re-imagined in works of fiction. It's not as if people think this children's fantasy series is an accurate depiction of Navajo culture.
Sorry, but this sounds a lot to "No one can say anything about us except us", and that's BS
The way this reads, they don´t even want curious fans to learn the actual mythos
While I agree with the first part, you also have to remember that people can be very very dumb and think that reality could be closer to the appropriation than to reality. (Ie, some dumb-ass could think that skinwalkers could have been created to vilify some other people).
Quite frankly, that's really the last thing native people need.
Which is why I previously said that she probably could have written it (for lack of a better term) a safer way.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Why is it BS?
To your second point, that's completely fine to do and say. What's your problem with that?
What exactly gives this woman the right to speak for the rest of the Diné. What if some Diné want to be represented in media in some way? I'll agree that Rowling could have done a better job, but telling her, and by extension all non-Diné, not to use Navajo ideas at all isn't the solution.
Because it seems odd on one hand complain about being misrepresented while on the other hand making a blanket statement declining to clarify what the beliefs in question actually are because nobody outside of the native community needs to know about this stuff.
Coffee Dog
Banned
possibly because they are stories, and stories are meant to be told. unless you think the audience wouldn't "get it", I guess. But in that case I'd have to wonder why the line is drawn there and nowhere else.
MHWilliams
Member
Two different thoughts.
In her Twitter timeline, she points out that there are available resources for creators who need consulting on Native characters and faith.
The latter is more of a "If you really care, seek out an actual Native."
She also seemed to enjoy this post by author N.K. Jemisin, which seems to reinforce the idea that Rowling just didn't do the legwork.
But again, I'm not her. If you wish to know more of her point of view, there's a whole Twitter account and blog to look at.
Semi-association. She brings up the fact that she is not Navajo in her Twitter timeline and blog. And she admits to speaking to her Navajo mentor for further clarity.
Ah yeah. Just like the Native Americans, the culprits were following Christianity.
You might want to check your chronology there buddy. Greece comes under Roman rule starting in 146 B.C.E. and Egypt in 30 B.C.E.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I'm sure she has more of right to speak on this then you or me.
A culture doesn't need to tell their story if they don't want to.
That really doesn't seem to be her 'thrust' at all.
This as adamant as you can get that you don't want people to know about your culture or use it any way, shape or form. I can see where you are pulling what you got your conclusion from though with this quote.
But the thing is she doesn't say anything about learning the culture in any other way and made it pretty clear in the quotes before this her views on that. Which I find sad really. There is something to be said about cultural appropriation for sure but if you are going to be secretive and seclusive with your culture then you are always going to have ignorance about it. We live in a world that is way to connected for any society or culture to take a xenophobic stance.
Exactly.
Opening up and letting others learn of your culture is the best way to ensure it survives in some form. I for one would love to learn more about this now.
In my opinion wanting to keep your folklore away from the constantly evolving world is a sure way to accelerate it's dissapearance.
Littlefang
Member
It's problematic because taking this stance will lead to no representation of Native American culture in the media when the emphasis should be on building positive representations of Native American culture in the media. It would be like arguing that men shouldn't be allowed to write female characters or that cisgender people shouldn't be allowed to write transgender characters. As long as the representation is done in a respectful and accurate manner, then we should encourage for more diverse representation in the media.The argument here should be has Rowling done a good job of representing Native American culture, not should she be allowed to do it in the first place.
Its exclusionary and basically just short for a call to censorship regarding the culture or mythos.
I'd argue that casual or vague referencing to specific cultures and myths enforce learning and thus better understanding. Hell, I didn't even know about the Sephirot until someone pointed out that Sephiroth's name and parts of the plot were references or nods to it,
While Rowlings case isn't equivalent to this example by any means, I do think being exclusionary with regards to myths and folklore is bad form.
what a sad sentence.
That's quite the assumption, thanks.
Going beyond that, personally I don't think too many people have the right to speak for vast swaths of people. You appear to have not even bothered looking into who this person is before deciding that they get to be a cultural arbiter. Do you not see how that might be a problematic attitude?
I happen to know from experience that there are currently questions being raised by some within the Diné about the degree to which outsiders should be allowed to share in their culture considering that they have traditionally been fairly adverse to anthropologists.
PdotMichael
Banned
Also native Americans are a big hivemind.
if she had done a really good job instead of a bo derek style remix, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, and someone would have learned that a non-native author could actually do native culture justice in their fiction, instead of native americans deciding that they simply should not bother.
But if something is truly sacred and people have a habit of taking your sacred things from you and using them for their own purposes, both literally and figuratively physically and spiritually, don't be surprised if you start pulling their cards.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Why not? It's knowledge. Why should it not be shared?
Unless I'm mistaken, she's written all of 10-12 paragraphs about the history of wizarding in America. She hasn't even reached the American Revolution yet. His article seems to push for more wizarding schools, but she just seems to have some arbitrary "1 school per country" rule.
I also kinda doubt that any approach she takes towards voodoo or obeah will go over as well as this guy thinks it will.
what's in your wallet? maybe the point is they want to foster true respect. as in 'we're still here, we still have a voice, and a say, and actually since you asked, back off, we're fucking pissed." I'd kind of understand and relate, and maybe back off a bit.
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