gabrielt16
Member
The first paragraph in the writting.
The problem isnt that there are only 11 schools and only 1 for Africa and 1 for Asia because most home school.
Source: https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/wizarding-schools
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JK Rowling under fire for appropriating Native American mythology on Pottermore
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The first paragraph in the writting.
The problem isnt that there are only 11 schools and only 1 for Africa and 1 for Asia because most home school.
Source: https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/wizarding-schools
That's a good point. Suppose I meant that, under Catholic, Protestant, and presumably Orthodox hegemony, non-Christian supernatural traditions were generally considered illegitimate by the clergy.
Even then depending on how you define non-Christian supernatural traditions that really only applies to Protestants.Then even within the most reformed Church, the Scottish Kirk, you'll find a general Laissez-faire attitude towards it most of the time.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Maybe you should read what she wrote, because that's not what she wrote. She is going into detail of the worlds 11 biggest schools, and makes it clear that there are small schools all over the place. She also has not finished revealing the location or names of 4 of the 11 schools yet.
so we got 4 biggest schools left right? Which meane one of China, Southeast Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, or North Africa, home to some of the oldest, richest historical traditions in the world, won't actually get any representation innit?
O and there's this: "Although Africa has a number of smaller wizarding schools (for advice on locating these, see introductory paragraph), there is only one that has stood the test of time (at least a thousand years) and achieved an enviable international reputation: Uagadou. "
Right because obviously the cradle of civilization can't actually have more than one school of 'enviable international reputation'. Whatever the fuck that means.
Real world universities originated in Western Europe. The three oldest in the world are in Italy, France and England. I can't see anything offensive about have a wizard equivalent school be the same.
I didn't realize kids started Universities when they're 11 years old!
To make this equal, she should write a story about how Jesus was a wizard and not the son of god.
well according to the legends he was still a virgin by the time he reached 30.
echoshifting
Banned
People are going to make mistakes. And there needs to be room to make innocent mistakes, but also room to call out those issues.
This is true, and I think the problem I'm having is there seems to be no real consensus of what the issues are, here. Some are offended that she used Native American culture at all. Others take issue with her somewhat crude "appropriation" of the skinwalker myth, specifically, or that she states some medicine men were con artists who demonized those with real magical power. Some are just upset that she did not collaborate with any first-hand Navajo source before writing this (though for all I know, she actually did).
Some of these complaints seem more valid than others, particularly the last one, assuming it's even true. I still think she would have been better off to leave well enough alone if she didn't want to take the time to expand more on these ideas.
well it literally sounds like you're talking about JRR Tolkein
i didnt say it was, but IMO and many others Tolkein LOTR and Silmarillion clear is a step up from Harry Potter. but this is really beside the point of the thread.Bruh, Tolkien isn't Dostoevsky. JRR wrote genre fiction that was great, but not leagues and leagues beyond Harry Potter.
well according to the legends he was still a virgin by the time he reached 30.
What an absolutely fantastic post. I'm laughing so hard right now.
China practiced isolation, so it makes sense that (for example) Chinese wizards were way behind their counterparts culturally and were still closed off, to the point of being completely unwilling to allow others to know of their existence.
That's a really good point. Also, Western wizards probably benefited off of muggle colonialism. So Europe has a higher proportion of magical schools for the same reason that it has a higher proportion of muggle universities.
well according to the legends he was still a virgin by the time he reached 30.
...fuck
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Hmmm, that's not so good.
I am starting to think that her decision to provide details about the wizarding world beyond Europe was a mistake, even if it's something fans have been clamoring for for a long time. All of these issues wouldn't have surfaced if she had put a bit more time and effort into properly fleshing them out, but it doesn't seem like she really wanted to do that.
Exactly. I don't mind her expanding her universe in ways she'd like to go, but having these things out there just show me that she didn't properly think through how it would actually work.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Honestly it feels like with the movie coming out she finally decided to expand on her supposed plan of the Encyclopedia that had turned into Pottermore, but kinda fucked it up due to laziness.
At this point, I think the best course of action for Rowling (assuming that she gives a shit) is to apologize and hire cultural/historical advisors and elders to assist her on the yet to be revealed schools. For Ilvermony, she can just retcon it all and try again with said assistance.
veloxStrix
Banned
Bruh, Tolkien isn't Dostoevsky. JRR wrote genre fiction that was great, but not leagues and leagues beyond Harry Potter.
I think Tolkien can be seen, objectively, to be "leagues" ahead of Rowling. From a stylistic standpoint, he isn't that far off of Dostoyevsky. Just because he doesn't explicitly concern himself with the human experience doesn't put him out of that tier of authors. The "meaning" in Tolkien's writing is more subtle than most people care to give him credit for, provided they even noticed it.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Fact of the matter is, World-Building is really really really hard. That's why the best at it invented their own mythologies and can play around with them as much as they want.
She's got this whole magical world that is also tied to the real world in tangible ways that are hard to disentangle.
It's literally impossible to create a believable and consistent expanded universe due to how she constructed her world.
She's got this whole magical world that is also tied to the real world in tangible ways that are hard to disentangle.
It's literally impossible to create a believable and consistent expanded universe due to how she constructed her world.
Fact of the matter is, World-Building is really really really hard. That's why the best at it invented their own mythologies and can play around with them as much as they want.
She's got this whole magical world that is also tied to the real world in tangible ways that are hard to disentangle.
It's literally impossible to create a believable and consistent expanded universe due to how she constructed her world.
Yeah, that's always been my take on the subject. She just doesn't have the writing chops for it.
Littlefang
Member
So if I'm understanding the issue here, it's not really about cultural appropriation, but rather a negative portrayal of Native American culture? If so then the criticism is perfectly fair. I'd also agree that Rowling's allowed to write what she wants seeing as it's her story. I'm hoping she'll end up owning what she wrote rather than take the route of "well it isn't meant to be offensive." But if she wants the criticism to go away then she's going to have to change what she wrote which is entirely up to her.
veloxStrix
Banned
Some Native American author should just write about the boy wizard Hairy Otter and his culturally appropriate adventures.
You aren't understanding the issue here.
A quote from Dr. Keene's Native Appropriations blog:
If you can't discuss your beliefs and traditions, I don't think you have any ability to complain about people getting them wrong.
So if I'm understanding the issue here, it's not really about cultural appropriation, but rather a negative portrayal of Native American culture? If so then the criticism is perfectly fair. I'd also agree that Rowling's allowed to write what she wants seeing as it's her story. I'm hoping she'll end up owning what she wrote rather than take the route of "well it isn't meant to be offensive." But if she wants the criticism to go away then she's going to have to change what she wrote which is entirely up to her.
You aren't understanding the issue here.
A quote from Dr. Keene's Native Appropriations blog:
What happens when Rowling pulls this in, is we as Native people are now opened up to a barrage of questions about these beliefs and traditions (take a look at my twitter mentions if you don’t believe me)–but these are not things that need or should be discussed by outsiders. At all. I’m sorry if that seems “unfair,” but that’s how our cultures survive.
If you can't discuss your beliefs and traditions, I don't think you have any ability to complain about people getting them wrong.
The problem isnt that there are only 11 schools and only 1 for Africa and 1 for Asia because most home school.
Source: https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-jk-rowling/wizarding-schools
Damn, that is actually a pretty poor explanation from a marketing perspective ;P Leaving money on the table by not giving more regions their own schools and mythologies Rowling!
I think Tolkien can be seen, objectively, to be "leagues" ahead of Rowling. From a stylistic standpoint, he isn't that far off of Dostoyevsky. Just because he doesn't explicitly concern himself with the human experience doesn't put him out of that tier of authors. The "meaning" in Tolkien's writing is more subtle than most people care to give him credit for, provided they even noticed it.
Academically too.
echoshifting
Banned
So if I'm understanding the issue here, it's not really about cultural appropriation, but rather a negative portrayal of Native American culture? If so then the criticism is perfectly fair. I'd also agree that Rowling's allowed to write what she wants seeing as it's her story. I'm hoping she'll end up owning what she wrote rather than take the route of "well it isn't meant to be offensive." But if she wants the criticism to go away then she's going to have to change what she wrote which is entirely up to her.
It's not really entirely negative though. She says there were good and bad things about the way the culture treated magic at the time. Can't there be bad to go along with the good stuff?
The one seriously bad thing is claiming that some medicine men were con artists who demonized real wizards. On the positive side, indigenous cultures welcomed wizards fleeing persecution, some wizards were excellent medicine men or hunters, and their alchemy game was far superior to Europeans.
At this point, I think the best course of action for Rowling (assuming that she gives a shit) is to apologize and hire cultural/historical advisors and elders to assist her on the yet to be revealed schools. For Ilvermony, she can just retcon it all and try again with said assistance.
Apologise? Hire cultural sensitivity advisers? Give me a break.
If authors had to tread on tiptoes to no offend people's theological beliefs, literature would be irrevocably harmed. Look at all the criticism that Rowling has faced from pretty much every organised religion there is, saying Harry Potter is offensive, promotes devil worship, directly attacks Christianity/Islam etc. Should she have bowed down to their complains and rewritten her novels to accommodate? What about Salman Rushdie, should he have done the same?
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
The people saying "it's just fiction" just makes me so disappointed.
To not even approach the issue even a little bit and understand people's problems is just disheartening.
To not even approach the issue even a little bit and understand people's problems is just disheartening.
If you can't discuss your beliefs and traditions, I don't think you have any ability to complain about people getting them wrong.
they discuss their traditions and beliefs all the time. They don't give away the keys to the kingdom though. Or else you'll find some white guy in a head dress trying to sell rich dotcommers time share in his sweat lodge.
It is an alternate history fantasy world where magic is real.
Other cultures get twisted and used for creative writing purposes all the time. Not a peep is heard about them.
of course, they're not from America. Its ironic, really, but nothing new
If you can't discuss your beliefs and traditions, I don't think you have any ability to complain about people getting them wrong.
So they basically treat this is same way Scientology treats the Xenu story?
veloxStrix
Banned
they discuss their traditions and beliefs all the time. They don't give away the keys to the kingdom though. Or else you'll find some white guy in a head dress trying to sell rich dotcommers time share in his sweat lodge.
What does this even mean?
If these theoretical dotcommers don't know anything about the culture because "it's not for outsiders", then I don't even need to be accurate in my sweat lodge reproduction. I could build a Perspiration Lodge or even a Swelter Lodge and they would never be the wiser.
What does this even mean?
If these theoretical dotcommers don't know anything about the culture because "it's not for outsiders", then I don't even need to be accurate in my sweat lodge reproduction. I could build a Perspiration Lodge or even a Swelter Lodge and they would never be the wiser.
most religions keep their mysteries a mystery. Mormons, Jehovas, scientologists, Jews, Catholics. I don't figure the protestants have any secrets worth keeping but maybe someone got busy at some point...
to your second point, skinwalkers and other pieces of native culture have been taken and remade for fiction since the first days of film. So its not like there isn't a clear source and a descriptive narrative already pre-existing before she decided to incorporate native american bogeymen and make them kid-friendly. she could have done a good job of incorporating other cultures into her art, but she flubbed this bit and some people were reminded of everything they lost once again.
Admiral Woofington
Member
I really don't see anything wrong with this.
I hope she delves into slavery and slave culture also possibly being tied to magic.
At that point she'd need a lot of help to write it as effectively as possible. Anything less could cause a major backlash.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
But it's just fiction, right?At that point she'd need a lot of help to write it as effectively as possible. Anything less could cause a major backlash.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
I really don't see anything wrong with this.
I hope she delves into slavery and slave culture also possibly being tied to magic.
Ahahahah. I'll take Awful Ideas for $400, Alex.
yanipheonu
Member
But campaigner Dr Adrienne Keene told Rowling on Twitter that its not your world. Its our (real) Native world. And skinwalker stories have context, roots, and reality You cant just claim and take a living tradition of a marginalised people. Thats straight up colonialism/appropriation.
This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how culture works.
Japanese people are eating hamburgers and Americans are watching Anime.
Humans borrow from other cultures. Nothing you can do about it.
If it isn't Rowling, someone is bound to borrow from it. All you can is make peace with it or make a fuss I guess.
All that said, I at least understand reaching out at last, and having the conversation that one side may be offended, and trying to reach a middle ground that's respectful.
Often with these kinds of culture appropriations is mostly the crime of not respecting a group not the act of appropriation. A woman in blackface for Halloween isn't intrinsically bad, but because it implies an irreverence of the group she's portraying. That's when it's a problem.
veloxStrix said:What happens when Rowling pulls this in, is we as Native people are now opened up to a barrage of questions about these beliefs and traditions (take a look at my twitter mentions if you dont believe me)but these are not things that need or should be discussed by outsiders. At all. Im sorry if that seems unfair, but thats how our cultures survive.
If you can't discuss your beliefs and traditions, I don't think you have any ability to complain about people getting them wrong.
They said that ? 0_o this sounds like how cultures die, not grow. How else will your culture grow if more people don't learn about it, and eventually, share in it? It's like some fatal logic. Agree totally with your assessment.
Littlefang
Member
Some Native American author should just write about the boy wizard Hairy Otter and his culturally appropriate adventures.
You aren't understanding the issue here.
A quote from Dr. Keene's Native Appropriations blog:
If you can't discuss your beliefs and traditions, I don't think you have any ability to complain about people getting them wrong.
I mean clearly Dr. Keene is arguing that this is cultural appropriation, but it looks like she is the only one doing so? All the other twitter quotes I can find are talking about it perpetuating negative stereotypes and stuff and not taking issue with Rowling merely writing about Native American culture. So I'll just take the stance that I disagree with what she's saying but I can understand where some of the other criticism is coming from. So I think that there is a valid discussion to be had here, but Dr. Keene is effectively masking it by screaming cultural appropriation which I completely disagree with.
It's not really entirely negative though. She says there were good and bad things about the way the culture treated magic at the time. Can't there be bad to go along with the good stuff?
The one seriously bad thing is claiming that some medicine men were con artists who demonized real wizards. On the positive side, indigenous cultures welcomed wizards fleeing persecution, some wizards were excellent medicine men or hunters, and their alchemy game was far superior to Europeans.
I think it's perfectly valid to put in both positive and negative aspects of the culture, but it can certainly be discussed on whether those negative aspects perpetuate stereotypes or vastly overwhelm the positive aspects. I really don't know if this is the case in this instance because I'm not finding all that much talk about controversy beyond what Dr. Keene is saying.
PdotMichael
Banned
I don't really understand what is the possible endgame of this.
No Native American culture in everything unlike its a documentary?
No Native American culture in everything unlike its a documentary?
Ahahahah. I'll take Awful Ideas for $400, Alex.
It's fiction that is tied to real world events. If there were magicians, they were probably involved to some extent. I doubt they were all in Canada during the Civil War.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Probably being involved in the process.I don't really understand what is the possible endgame of this.
No Native American culture in everything unlike its a documentary?
Alex Stroud
Banned
But it's just fiction, right?
It is, and your inability to grasp that confirms that you're not as intelligent as your handle suggests.
The people saying "it's just fiction" just makes me so disappointed.
To not even approach the issue even a little bit and understand people's problems is just disheartening.
it's mythology. I'm sorry but if you're getting outraged about this then you will probably want to avoid the other thousand or so years of published literature.
most religions keep their mysteries a mystery.
Most? You mean Scientology and...?
Most religions are built on the idea that they will be taught and spread to others, and are based on texts and ideas that are openly communicated.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The comparison of Native American culture to Santa Claus was ghastly lol
I don't really understand what is the possible endgame of this.
No Native American culture in everything unlike its a documentary?
better and more respectful representation when people decide to include them.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
It's fiction that is tied to real world events. If there were magicians, they were probably involved to some extent. I doubt they were all in Canada during the Civil War.
Sure, let's have this fantasy writer who's never showed any appreciation for nuance to write about a subject that is a literal minefield but mix it up with made up magic. Shit, not even Toni Morrison can pull this off.
it's mythology. I'm sorry but if you're getting outraged about this then you will probably want to avoid the other thousand or so years of published literature.
It's not outrage, just disappointment. These books are for kids and for many, it'll shape how they view themselves and how they think the world views them. This isn't trivial.
Most? You mean Scientology and...?
Most religions are built on the idea that they will be taught and spread to others, and are based on texts and ideas that are openly communicated.
there is a message you use to proselytize and Shepard the flock. then there is shop talk that usually doesn't make it out to the uninitiated.
It's fiction that is tied to real world events. If there were magicians, they were probably involved to some extent. I doubt they were all in Canada during the Civil War.
It makes no sense whatsoever that magic would have anything to do with slavery as it's purely a muggle problem. If the slaver owners had magic powers, why did they need slaves? If the slaves had powers, how did they get caught to begin with?
Sure, let's have this fantasy writer who's never showed any appreciation for nuance to write about a subject that is a literal minefield but mix it up with made up magic. Shit, not even Toni Morrison can pull this off.
It's kid fiction. It doesn't need to be particularly detailed or nuanced.
It makes no sense whatsoever that magic would have anything to do with slavery as it's purely a muggle problem. If the slaver owners had magic powers, why did they need slaves? If the slaves had powers, how did they get caught to begin with?
Well how do witches get burned at the stake at the Salem Trials? It could be something as simple that magicians opposed the slave trade or that Africans were brought over that turned out to be wizards, which seems to be very possible if some are randomly born into muggle families.
PdotMichael
Banned
better and more respectful representation when people decide to include them.
So did JK Rowling a bad job with that?
And that's not what is written in the OP.
But campaigner Dr Adrienne Keene told Rowling on Twitter that “it’s not ‘your’ world. It’s our (real) Native world. And skinwalker stories have context, roots, and reality … You can’t just claim and take a living tradition of a marginalised people. That’s straight up colonialism/appropriation.”
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Dude, stop being so outraged./sSure, let's have this fantasy writer who's never showed any appreciation for nuance to write about a subject that is a literal minefield but mix it up with made up magic. Shit, not even Toni Morrison can pull this off.
Admiral Woofington
Member
It's kid fiction. It doesn't need to be particularly detailed or nuanced.
I mean Zootopia did a very vanilla but effective view into racism and prejudice, with the right people a kid's writer like JK could do it but the topic in this case needs to be handled very carefully.
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