Support NeoGAF

[HomerSimpson-Man]

How much do you know exactly? He's the boss -- at least as far as the chain of command is concerned internally, right? He probably has the weight to green-light IPs and design choices. You can't excuse id's shortcomings by excusing Carmack. And, to a degree, the tech itself cannot be removed from design, no? You don't think Carmack deserves criticism?


Your post epitomizes the problem -- and Carmack's problem. If resolution and frames are your only points of comparison, how much does that really mean? It turns out that a lot of those sub-30fps games are really well-reviewed and have been met with commercial success.

Performance of next generation consoles is quite a concern though for a lot of people. The reference point is the tech side of games. The guy who made such a engine work on console (easily made one of the best looking and running games on consoles period) was excited coming to this generation and is now not next generation, and a lot of devs struggled handling 30fps for so long, especially the early use of UE3, I can only image how else other tech teams feel about the coming generation.

 

[zroid]

Or they'd have to sacrifice on the core hardware for adding in VR goggles, similar to Wii U.

Apparently he is OK with this, since he doesn't seem to be too keen on the idea of simply "turning the knobs up" (a sentiment he and I share).

What I find curious is that it always seemed to me, from the periphery anyway, that that's largely what programmers were after. More advanced hardware so they could tinker and pull more off with it.

The other stuff was for designers to deal with.

 

[Salsa]

Except they are? Hasn't Carmack stated multiple times he underestimated how much effort and time the engine would take? Wasn't RAGE in development for, like, 6+ years? And it was still met with relatively lukewarm reception on both ends. Imagine if RAGE had come out earlier this gen, the reception would have been the reserve and it would have looked significantly better than most 07/08 games. You can remove the tech from the game in discussion, but not in practice, right?

You're basically saying the game would have been better recieved but not that the game would have been better.

Also no one was aiming for the best looking game, they were aiming for the best looking game that did 60fps on consoles. They nailed it, and it was by doing many "tricks" that Carmack came up with.

 

[Poimandres]

Ya and how much did those games sell? Where are they on the live top 20? Nowhere. Case closed.

That GAME (as in one game) sold around 2 million copies. It also didn't have a deathmatch mode, or traditional multiplayer.

I think you should put a little more effort into future cases, detective.

 

[rdrr gnr]

You're basically saying the game would have been better recieved but not that the game would have been better.

Right. Because I'm not sure if I can say the latter -- I don't work at id, I don't know what steps led them to RAGE. But I think most of GAF can predict relative reception of hyped titles. RAGE was Game of Show at E3, no? Do you think it lived up to that? (I'm not arguing critical/sales reception is the only indicator, but it is the only one that can be argued without considering subjective enjoyment). I can infer you liked it, but I thought there were some vocal dissenters regarding the title from PC-GAF? Something about textures up close and other considerations.

Edit: 2 million is really solid for a new IP. Did id/publishers ever state what they wanted in sales?

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Dont meant that in a bad way, but Carmack is all about pushing the edge of tech while Iwata has a different background and focuses on bringin interesting new ways of gameplay. Carmack does something completely different that falls more in line with bringing new alternative ways to move tech forward.

IMO, there are many more people pushing tech forward that have surpassed Carmack, Tim Sweeny perhaps, they are just less vocal or fans in general ignore them for the old standbys. Standbys who have been passed up in this fast paced industry.

The days when id engines were the ones pushing hardware and PC OEMs to spec to Carmack's desires are long since gone, as is his influence. I am in no way denigrating his contributions in the past, he's done wonderful stuff.

 

[plagiarize]

Except they are? Hasn't Carmack stated multiple times he underestimated how much effort and time the engine would take? Wasn't RAGE in development for, like, 6+ years? And it was still met with relatively lukewarm reception on both ends. Imagine if RAGE had come out earlier this gen, the reception would have been the reserve and it would have looked significantly better than most 07/08 games. You can remove the tech from the game in discussion, but not in practice, right?

Edit: I like how I got the same post in different ways. Right. But I'd still say the game who designs your engine is a big player. id wouldn't be id without Carmack. Are id people on this forum? I'd be surprised if Carmack's input wasn't taken with as much consideration as the president's. Thanks, for the responses.

the engine is good. it works. it does exactly what it is supposed to. the people who didn't buy Rage didn't choose not to buy Rage because of the technology behind the game. unless you can substantiate that, sales have nothing to do with it.

Carmack doesn't criticise himself for being *slow* with the work. he just thinks they could have put out a lesser engine powering a different game in the interim had they not aimed for the Rage tech from the beginning. he only criticises his own ambition.

this game that theoretically comes out in 08 doesn't look as good as Rage.

“We had, at one point or another, seven years of work that went into it. It’s a foregone conclusion that we’re never going to throw out that much of the code base ever again. If we have eight times the resources on a next gen console, we can’t spend a decade writing the optimal technology for that. We need to be able to be at a point where we rewriter sections that matter and have an impact, and reuse as much as we can.

“A lot of the things we do nowadays, with the AI and the animation, is really good enough. Every aspect of Rage could be made better if we wanted to spend another two years on it, but it’s not the optimal use of [our] resources. I’d be happier if we produced two games in that time. And that’s actually my personal marching orders for technology development going forward.

see?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I can't believe anyone is hating on Carmack.

Or marginalizing him.

He doesn't have the buying power his name once did, that can be freely admitted. But to act like his opinion holds little weight?

I'm with Haunted. Unbelievable.

 

[Mutanthands]

I don't get the hostility that comes up every time Carmack says something. People in the press come to him and ask him questions, and he answers them honestly without putting down anyone else.

And then people go out of their way come into the thread and start putting up strawmen to attack.

Irregardless of what you think of his recent output, Carmack is a programming legend. And he tried something truly different from what others have tried with the Rage engine. How successful he was could be argued, but it was an honest attempt at techincal innovation.

What he thinks about where we are and where we may go is a matter of interest to most of us due to the above.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Todd Hollenshead, President
Tim Willits, Creative Director
John Carmack, Technical Director

That in no way means he doesn't have a say in the design and direction of the game, as was documented in Masters of Doom.

 

[reptilescorpio]

Carmack is still god tier. Hasn't lost any of his brilliance. The team isn't quite as good as needed though, hopefully they have increased the team size for Doom 4.

That in no way means he doesn't have a say in the design and direction of the game, as was documented in Masters of Doom.

Game development has changed quite a bit since Master of Doom buddy.

 

[Mastperf]

Mostly sub-30 fps games developer wide this generation ?

The one guy who designed a great looking engine at 720p and 60fps on consoles not all excited about next gen hardware, does speak lots of next gen performance.

It's actually the opposite. He said next-gen performance will be just fine but nothing more than the typical, boring graphical upgrade.

 

[Salsa]

Right. Because I'm not sure if I can say the latter -- I don't work at id, I don't know what steps led them to RAGE. But I think most of GAF can predict relative reception of hyped titles. RAGE was Game of Show at E3, no? Do you think it lived up to that? (I'm not arguing critical/sales reception is the only indicator, but it is the only one that can be argued without considering subjective enjoyment). I can infer you liked it, but I thought there were some vocal dissenters regarding the title from PC-GAF? Something about textures up close and other considerations.

Edit: 2 million is really solid for a new IP. Did id/publishers ever state what they wanted in sales?

I loved the game. I was vocal in PC-GAF of my first issues with it (most of wich were fixed in subsequent patches). I think the game could have been better FOR ME if they had a bit more of focus on the PC audience, but I understand what they were going for (since Carmack explicitely said so (that the game could have been way better on PC if that was what they were leading with, but they weren't)) and I think it succeeded at that.

The most interesting aspects of RAGE in terms of innovation are obviously way under the hood, and most people dont read up on that so it's hard to appreciate in that sense.

I understand that at the end of the day the "only thing that matters is if the game is good" in terms of appreciating it, but going just by that: I really did love the game. It had its flaws but it was super fun, looked great, and had the best gunplay this gen.

IMO, there are many more people pushing tech forward that have surpassed Carmack

You woulnd't be factually wrong, but the thing is that no one can push tech forward in every way. Carmack focuses on what interests him, Sweeny in his thing, etc. Of course there's a ton of people doing super interesting work in their own areas that dont need to directly compete with what Carmack does. It's a matter of where you think the more interesting innovation is.

 

[Silly.Mikey]

I can't believe anyone is hating on Carmack.

Or marginalizing him.

He doesn't have the buying power his name once did, that can be freely admitted. But to act like his opinion holds little weight?

I'm with Haunted. Unbelievable.

Let me make this as clear as possible for everyone who didn't quite get me the first time. He WAS excited for this gen, and it got us what? Above average games at best that didn't have any lasting appeal. And this is from a gen of console that got with him excited. Now, this guy who hasn't made a great game in god knows how long is no longer excited for next gen, and this is supposed to resonate with me? Ya ok.

 

[rdrr gnr]

the engine is good. it works. it does exactly what it is supposed to.

I don't disagree. I thought the game looked good.

the people who didn't buy Rage didn't choose not to buy Rage because of the technology behind the game. unless you can substantiate that, sales have nothing to do with it.

Of course not. Aside from a few forum-dwellers, people rarely make those types of decisions. What I am saying is that the timing of RAGE (which was a consequence of tech behind it) allowed other developers to catch up and for the id-branding to lose some weight. They were more relevant (awaiting id's new title) at the beginning of this gen, than at the end (being disappointed by RAGE).

Carmack doesn't criticise himself for being *slow* with the work. he just thinks they could have put out a lesser engine powering a different game in the interim had they not aimed for the Rage tech from the beginning. he only criticises his own ambition.

Sure. But I think his quotes argues for my point just as well -- at least in theory. The tech drove that game and I don't think it [the game] lived up to that monumental effort -- aside from being interesting tech alone.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Carmack is still god tier. Hasn't lost any of his brilliance. The team isn't quite as good as needed though, hopefully they have increased the team size for Doom 4.



Game development has changed quite a bit since Master of Doom buddy.

I don't see how Carmack having very clear influence and say in what games and designs occur at id has anything to do with game development. If all of id wanted to do an RPG but Carmack want's do Doom 49850938, which game is more likely to be made?

 

[Arkam]

guy that made one game 50 years ago and still gets attention to this day. David Jaffe 1.0. The real jaffe is David Jaffe 2.0

I mean seriously how young are you that you dont know/care about John Carmack?
John Carmack is the reason I got into the video game industry... enough said.

 

[Mutanthands]

Let me make this as clear as possible for everyone who didn't quite get me the first time. He WAS excited for this gen, and it got us what? Above average games at best that didn't have any lasting appeal. And this is from a gen of console that got with him excited. Now, this guy who hasn't made a great game in god knows how long is no longer excited for next gen, and this is supposed to resonate with me? Ya ok.

I'm trying to figure out how that was his fault. Maybe he was just as disappointed as you were, and just too nice to say it.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

You woulnd't be factually wrong, but the thing is that no one can push tech forward in every way. Carmack focuses on what interests him, Sweeny in his thing, etc. Of course there's a ton of people doing super interesting work in their own areas that dont need to directly compete with what Carmack does. It's a matter of where you think the more interesting innovation is.

I agree, but as a console and PC gamer, Carmack's influence is, IMO, very diminished. If completely negligible these days.

I suppose that goes with them removing themselves out of the engine middleware market

 

[Mutanthands]

I agree, but as a console and PC gamer, Carmack's influence is, IMO, very diminished. If completely negligible these days.

I suppose that goes with them removing themselves out of the engine middleware market

Even if what you say above is true, it in now way makes his opinion about todays and tomorrows tech somehow invalid and unworthy of being aired, like some others (not yourself) have said.

 

[Stallion Free]

The expected specs really aren't all that exciting.

 

[yogloo]

Holy crap. I am so suprised to find out that so many people disagrees with his view. I totally support his view on where we are heading. Good VR will be the future of gaming, not some half assed 3d tv.

 

[lunchtoast]

I hope by the time I retire there is a realistic VR MMO I can plug into and waste my life away on.

 

[MrCunningham]

He gets turned on by developing for iOS though.

He's gets turned on by developing for any new piece of hardware. iOS appealed to him because it allowed him to go back and work on smaller projects that didn't take 5-7 years of development time.

Rage has one big graphical blunder though with the textures visibly caching in view. It's an ugly effect despite all the other great aspects of the engine. It might be that the technology has come out to soon in regards to today's hardware.

yeah, that was an issue with harddrive access speeds. Mega Textures in Id tech 5 wasn't a bad technology, but I think hardware just wasn't up to snuff to take full advantage of it. Also, storage space was a big issue too.

The games uses something like 20GB's worth of textures, and features a unique texture on just about every surface. But in order to achieve that, they had to sacrifice the quality of each texture down to a lower resolution to just get it to all work. Rage looked amazing when you viewed vistas and landscapes from a distance, but up close, things got a little ugly.

It makes me wonder if developers should work at trying to find ways to eliminate reliance on bitmap textures.

 

[Salsa]

Holy crap. I am so suprised to find out that so many people disagrees with his view. I totally support his view on where we are heading. Good VR will be the future of gaming, not some half assed 3d tv.

I really coulnd't agree more with his comment of being sad that TV's chose to push 3D forward instead of HDR displays.

 

[Sciz]

It makes me wonder if developers should work at trying to find ways to eliminate reliance on bitmap textures.

You can do some interesting stuff with procedural textures and even vector textures, but you run into load time and CPU usage drawbacks.

 

[LCGeek]

guy that made one game 50 years ago and still gets attention to this day. David Jaffe 1.0. The real jaffe is David Jaffe 2.0

He was doing next gen before the console crowd even knew what it was. Be it in the 2d or 3d era he has left his mark and did so well before most in the industry took notice.

Also that one game is still a lot better than what most of the genre pumps out these days especially with the mods it has.

Carmack can always spit decent sense when it comes to tech so what if he isn't doing anything relevant, you can't deny that his comment doesn't hold wait or isn't valid about the next gen. Yes next gen will be good but the hardware isn't impressive.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Even if what you say above is true, it in now way makes his opinion about todays and tomorrows tech somehow invalid and unworthy of being aired, like some others (not yourself) have said.

As I said, this is my view of his influence on me with regards to gaming right now and in the short term future. Back in the day, I was all about Carmack and id and id tech

I am just saying that to me, his opinions are valid to be aired, but doubt they will have an impact on console and PC games, as they once did. Stan Lee has some great opinions on comic books, to which I will listen to, but have little to any impact on that industry today or in the future. Probably a bad analogy but you get the picture.

I am not hating on Carmack, to be clear.

 

[rdrr gnr]

The expected specs really aren't all that exciting.

Can you link to what the current speculation is? Preferably a single post? There are too many threads to keep track of.

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

I very much agree with him.

Although the Star Wars 1313 demo looked great, I couldn't help be a little disappointed. I think the laws of diminishing returns are really starting kick-in. Next gen will be even more defined by networks, services and gadgets.

 

[Replicant]

Rage wasn't that exciting either.

Came to say this but since you've done it, my job is done.

 

[subversus]

That in no way means he doesn't have a say in the design and direction of the game, as was documented in Masters of Doom.

he still has input when making iOS games. That is why he loves it.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Next gen will be even more defined by networks, services and gadgets.

And you wouldn't be that far off actually.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

A guy can't even talk about his opinion on what interests him as a developer before everybody jumps on him and attacks the gameplay of the last game that he did the graphics engine of. Way to go, guys, you really marginalized that opinion.

doubt they will have an impact on console and PC games, as they once did.

And why does that matter at all to what he's saying? It's obvious he knows he's not working on a mass market project, but he's trying to broaden the appeal and see how other developers find his new project.

 

[Jigsaw]

You're basically saying the game would have been better recieved but not that the game would have been better.

Also no one was aiming for the best looking game, they were aiming for the best looking game that did 60fps on consoles. They nailed it, and it was by doing many "tricks" that Carmack came up with.

the game was just ugly,especially indoors with those terrible n64 textures,who cares for 60 fps when all the lighting was pre-baked and you had zero physics for objects,the whole world was static

there wasn't even a dynamic day/night cycle or weather change possible,something that was standard for open world games for years

the cods running on the quake3 engine in sub-hd are better looking than rage,take that carmack

 

[Duckhuntdog]

he still has input when making iOS games. That is why he loves it.

He has input in all of id's games.

 

[Stallion Free]

Can you link to what the current speculation is? Preferably a single post? There are too many threads to keep track of.

Click on any thread and if you are really truly impressed, the specs are fake.

 

[subversus]

He has input in all of id's games.

I love your confidence. Must be working at id

Spoiler

or just dumb

I can at least quote multiple interviews where he says he has no input anymore.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

And why does that matter at all to what he's saying? It's obvious he knows he's not working on a mass market project, but he's trying to broaden the appeal and see how other developers find his new project.

I'm fine with that. I never said I had a problem with his VR tech. Cool, awesome! Hope people hop on board, I loved playing the old VR Dactly Nightmare game. But it has very little to do with the current and short term console and PC tech direction currently, is what I was saying.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

I love your confidence. Must be working at id

Spoiler

or just dumb

I can at least quote multiple interviews where he says he has no input anymore.

To say he has Zero input wouldn't exactly be accurate. But I'll be nice and leave the dumb part out. He makes the engine right? I am sure that is just ONE of his ways of influence.

 

[Poimandres]

I'm fine with that. I never said I had a problem with his VR tech. Cool, awesome! Hope people hop on board, I loved playing the old VR Dactly Nightmare game. But it has very little to do with the current and short term console and PC tech direction currently, is what I was saying.

I agree with you, but I don't think anyone (least of all Carmack) is claiming this will be a huge factor in the next gen.

I do think that it's only a matter of time before VR comes back around as a big thing though. It seems like a logical progression when dealing with novel methods of immersion.

Also, I was thinking about it a few weeks ago and Dactyl Nightmare might have been the first fully 3D FPS, which makes Carmacks interest in VR tech somewhat fitting.

 

[NervousXtian]

VR headsets? Really. No thanks.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Carmack now literally out of touch with reality

 

[Desty]

Carmack now literally out of touch with reality

To some extent. There were significant leaps in PS -> PS2 with geometry, texturing, and vector units. PS2 -> PS3 brought shaders and multicore. PS3 -> PS4 looks like CPU+GPU combined plus compute shaders (i.e. 'data' shaders). If you are "not all that excited" to see where that can go then it is a pretty sad day for the industry. Sounds like he is just burnt out on gaming and wants to pursue his own technology projects.

 

[Poimandres]

Carmack now literally out of touch with reality

How can he be literally out of touch with reality when he already made a working headset? I mean, it doesn't get much more real than something that physically exists and already does what it sets out to do.

 

[Guevara]

Everybody wants to talk about gimmicky hardware and improvements to image quality and no one wants to talk about next gen gameplay

 

[Salsa]

Everybody wants to talk about gimmicky hardware and improvements to image quality and no one wants to talk about next gen gameplay

not like gameplay innovation is directly tied to the tech that allows to create new experiences right?

tech is graphics!

 

[PopcornMegaphone]

not like gameplay innovation is directly tied to the tech that allows to create new experiences right?

tech is graphics!

I don't think the hardware specs from ps2 -> ps3 offered many additional gameplay enchantments. Honestly, there's only one game this gen I can think of that would truly benefit from next gen hardware, and that's Red Faction Guerrilla with its awesome physics engine. That's why next gen will focus on networks, services and gadgets.

 

[Grayman]

I don't think the hardware specs from ps2 -> ps3 offered many additional gameplay enchantments. Honestly, there's only one game this gen I can think of that would truly benefit from next gen hardware, and that's Red Faction Guerrilla with its awesome physics engine. That's why next gen will focus on networks, services and gadgets.

PS2 couldn't do a lighting based game like Doom 3.

 

[missile]

"In many ways I am not all that excited about the next generation. It will let
us do everything we want to do now, with the knobs turned up" John Carmack

I think what his is speaking about is the end of linear graphics, linear
physics, and linear gameplay. The '90 and '00 have all maxed out all of
these, right, and he was one of those who did so. Composing worlds by
super-imposing independent parts has its limits. The next generation of
games will have to be non-linear in many respects to be successful on a
given scale. Non-linear graphics, non-linear physics, and non-linear
gameplay will make games much more versatile but also more difficult to
create.