fabricated backlash
Member
Lol, that would actually be a great PR line^^
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John Carmack "not all that excited" by next-gen hardware (gamesindustry.biz)
- Thread starter onQ123
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Lol, that would actually be a great PR line^^
I hope Carmack likes what he sees at valve and decides to stay there to work with Micheal Abrash on wearable computing tech.
yes, most models have 2 screens, one per eye. the one carmack is working with uses one screen, but its split halfway to display 2 views side by side. so your left eye looks at the left image and the right one at the right.
Refreshment.01
Member
Carmack is taking a sideways path to augment immersion in games instead of going forward. That's good. But i think part of it has to do that id has been left behind in the engine race.
I always though there's a future for head mounted display. I wouldn't say the quality is the big hurdle now, more than that i think the ergonomics and user comfort issues. Until someone can come up with something that weights just a bit more than a pair of glasses is too much effort to ask from the user.
But yea, what's cool about a VR is that even with the same level of graphics the experience is augmented. However, the industry will need to move or update input methods toward things like the WiiRemote or the Kinect.
I always though there's a future for head mounted display. I wouldn't say the quality is the big hurdle now, more than that i think the ergonomics and user comfort issues. Until someone can come up with something that weights just a bit more than a pair of glasses is too much effort to ask from the user.
But yea, what's cool about a VR is that even with the same level of graphics the experience is augmented. However, the industry will need to move or update input methods toward things like the WiiRemote or the Kinect.
Some of them do but it's not required. A wide fov is very important though.
yes, apparently the kit carmack is working with uses a lens to gives the wide fov from one cld screen and afterwards correcting it with the software, so it outputs a fishe eye destrorted image.
Rhazer Fusion
Member
Carmack essentially feels the same way I do about next generation. Also, I would imagine that everything will look better and offer more obviously, but not as much as everyone thinks. I think Carmack probably knows what he is talking about when it comes to hardware. Rage running at 60fps with it's impressive visuals imo was a rare treat on a console.
Refreshment.01
Member
For me it will about to finally be able to watch these consoles running complex simulations and not just the drawing of more "pretty" pictures. That will be a huge difference. Maybe that's why Carmack isn't feeling it, since he never explored much in this field of the computer generated graphics realm.
Now we have the characters of Gears of War with really detailed normal mapped armor, it looks good but it behaves weird. For the next cycle, i hope to see each part of the armor animated by a physics driven simulation, dynamic lighting applied in every game as a standard and better GI aproximations.
Oh I am aware. I'm just pointing out that rage was pretty rough around the edges visually and technically, though it had impressive art design.
The problem with Rage is that all the knobs are turned too far down, so the very thing he says doesn't excite him is the very thing that would solve Rage's most serious problems.
Glass Rebel
Member
Carmack ending up at Valve... that would be kind of a dream come true.
I'm sure you already know, but it makes sense that he's just meeting with Michael Abrash (now at Valve heading the wearable computing project). They have a long history from their ID days together. And considering their connection, and Valve's history of supporting all kinds of cool peripherals, I'd bet Carmack is just going there to show them how easy it is to support his VR system and how cool a game is when you do support it. So I would expect Valve games to offer converted 3D support for Carmack's project in the future.
Glass Rebel
Member
Yeah, I'm aware of their connection and Abrash's project
I was just thinking, if there was any place where Carmack could seriously pursue this endeavor it'd be Valve. I don't think Bethesda is interested in this. At Valve he could work on this and also lend a hand on Source development. Just wishful thinking at this point and probably impossible but he'd make a great addition IMO. I expect Valve at least to support the tech like they did with the Hydra Razer just based on the fact that this is John fucking Carmack. Even if it's just for showcasing purposes.BrokenEchelon
Banned
All of this. Carmack doesn't belong in this industry anymore. It's clear his heart and mind are elsewhere.
Hard to check out when you never checked in. I love Carmack, but he's not a gamer, and he's not interested in "videogames" -- he likes the challenge of technology, learning, and making things better. He's task-oriented.
I love that about him, but it means that instead of striving for hyper-realism, or something ala Crytek/UE4, his technology is about latency, and technological "adequacy"; the subset of problems he tackles just aren't about making great games, but great tech. After that, I don't think he has any strong feelings or interest in games.
Just like, my opinion. Maybe I'm misjudging his character.
Kong Fisso
Banned
I don't want Carmack at Valve.
I want him and Romero to kiss and make up and develop Doom 4 in sweet harmony.
I want him and Romero to kiss and make up and develop Doom 4 in sweet harmony.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I don't want Carmack at Valve.
I want him and Romero to kiss and make up and develop Doom 4 in sweet harmony.
Well since we are wishing for things, I want American McGee and Romero to go back to making wonderful levels as if they had never lost their magic touch.
shinobi602
Member
Um, no shit Carmack.
latency is very important
And yet it's way too often ignored. I mean, really, who needs responsiveness in their games?
Refreshment.01
Member
"Good enough" and "case by case" are 2 phrases we should apply here? I don't need mili second precision in a turn based RPG. A single player shooter like Metro doesn't require the low latency of a multiplayer arena oriented shooter like Quake 3.
Carmack is not the same, he doesn't have the energy and his interests are spread among a variety of things. Sincerely i miss he's ".plans" days even though i most admit my intellect didn't manage to grasp most of the things he discussed about in those logs.
thomasmahler
Member
I think he's right though.
Generally, it's good to have more power and simply through more CPU, GPU power and more RAM we'll see fucking amazing stuff happening, BUT:
I'm damn sure people would be hella more excited about playing with VR glasses if it works perfectly. If I really feel like I'm in a different, 3d world, this could give people the same kinda 'HOLY SHIT!' moment they got from experiencing the Wii the first time.
Generally, it's good to have more power and simply through more CPU, GPU power and more RAM we'll see fucking amazing stuff happening, BUT:
I'm damn sure people would be hella more excited about playing with VR glasses if it works perfectly. If I really feel like I'm in a different, 3d world, this could give people the same kinda 'HOLY SHIT!' moment they got from experiencing the Wii the first time.
The prospect of Portal with a VR HMD sounds fantastic.
Agreed. I'm just waiting with bated breath for the kickstarter.
IMO people in this thread are missing the perspective John is speaking from, especially since he's so involved in that VR headset (that will likely go nowhere).
He hasn't been left behind anything. He was researching virtual texturing before most of the industry. His first multi-platform game was one of the best looking multi-plat games at release.
His skill or trait has always been about looking at upcoming rendering techniques or possibilities and exploring their strengths. This hasn't changed at all.
None of what he said is correct. John hasn't lost the plot, he's worked with other technologies forever now. He's an engine programmer and if you watch him at Quakecon, you see that he hasn't lost any passion for the industry.
He hasn't been left behind anything. He was researching virtual texturing before most of the industry. His first multi-platform game was one of the best looking multi-plat games at release.
His skill or trait has always been about looking at upcoming rendering techniques or possibilities and exploring their strengths. This hasn't changed at all.
None of what he said is correct. John hasn't lost the plot, he's worked with other technologies forever now. He's an engine programmer and if you watch him at Quakecon, you see that he hasn't lost any passion for the industry.
plagiarize
Banned
yep, and ID are no longer in the business of selling engines. Carmack didn't willingly get into the business of selling engines in the first place. he still makes some of the best technology that powers games though.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Yeah, none of the next gen consoles offer anything new. Oh, except there's only been one announced so far, and it has a screen in the controller.
TouchMyBox
Member
That's silly, there are definitely new gameplay opportunities which will be possible on the next-generation of consoles. Stuff like fog simulation would make for a really awesome horror game, for example. Of course most big 5 million+ copies games will most likely be the same but with acceptable IQ (hopefully), but even with those games stuff like watch dogs has shown us how much more alive an open world game can be when it's being specced for more powerful hardware.
shinobi602
Member
I'll play devil's advocate here and say pretty sure Carmack has his hands on some PS4/720 devkits.
Mutanthands
Member
Are they re-releasing the Dreamcast? Neat!
iamshadowlark
Banned
I just don't agree with his sentiments at all. This generation brought us games like LBP and journey. Games no one saw coming. Who is he to say that the industry won't find other ways to innovate. Its almost like an insult.
Refreshment.01
Member
No need to get defensive. He's fallen behind in the sense that id's engines are not industry leading or wildly adopted anymore. Btw, this had happened before the Bethesda acquisition. Virtual texturing hasn't catch up yet. His first multi plat was one of best looking on consoles
, in terms of tech there are PC games years older that pack more impressive features. Plus he takes forever researching stuff and tends to arrive late to the party, see Doom 3 and Rage. Yet, even at the state he has fallen Carmack is indeed a genius and it's still very relevant.
That's my point of view, one that it's shared by many people now.
He is not a game designer Utako, so you casn't blame him if some of the games he builds tech base for are mediocre.
If one could turn up the knobs on the WiiMote, a screen would start growing between it and the nunchuck.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Well, that's a good point. Still, it's tough to say there's no innovation other than spec upgrades unless he just "doesn't count" the Wii U or something.
Yeah, they are! The screen in the Wii U controller is identical to the VMU. Cause they're both screens.
iamshadowlark
Banned
You know, having the U tablet be self powered and able to download shit from the console and play on the fly ala dreamcast is actually a brilliant fucking idea. Imagine a Pokemon Rpg with this shit.
Mutanthands
Member
Don't be obtuse. The functionality is expanded, but Wii U screen is an offshoot of the concept started with the VMU.
plagiarize
Banned
that's not what he said though. he himself is advocating finding other ways to innovate. he's just saying that the technology in the next generation isn't going to breed innovation itself.
I remember playing Sonic Adventure on the VMU, whenever the TV was occupied by my parents.
(I'm speaking of the vastly superior Chaos-Tamagotchi minigame.)
Mutanthands
Member
Chao Garden? That was a fun mini-game!
iamshadowlark
Banned
I don't see that.
All I take is him trying to sell people on VR early and basically dismiss the next gen consoles.
Refreshment.01
Member
Yea, Nintendo has never innovated with it's controllers because they use plastic to build them and we all know Nintendo didn't invent plastic X¬D
No, it's an offshoot of their Dual Screen systems. VMU was a so so executed concept that tried to bridge of portable and home gaming. The point is, with or without VMU sooner or later Nintendo would've included a screen on the controller.
Right, Chao, not Chaos. Take that, Sonic, I can't even remember the names of your creature paraphernalia, ha!
This is where perspective comes into play IMO. He's a graphics engineer, he's not really the type to know about game design. It's the designers that will bring the innovations, he's there to make it look and run good.
Not defensive at all, I just read all too often how he's fallen behind, overhyped, outclassed, etc. and you were just the most recent post. =) I'm fine with your opinion, and it doesn't matter that many people share it, the amount of people sharing a thought doesn't make it true or correct. He's also never been a game designer Utako (did you mean otaku?), but he has been an engine designer utako forever now.
Also IMO the thought of an "industry leading" engine is flawed. How is such a thing judged? Feature set, tools, scalability, etc? Every engine programmer has their own set of priorities for a given game. Whether it's frame rate, scope, IQ, effects, etc. and how do we gauge which is more important than the other while judging these engines? I think there are too many factors, many unknown to gamers, to really judge engines in such a broad manner.
Also he's never been too concerned about how widely adopted his engine has been. He's always been open that they design their engines for their games, not for licensing, and if someone wants to use their engine, he won't stop them.
Duane Cunningham
Member
The tech jump from 360 to 720, whatever it turns out to be, will likely qualify as "turning up the knobs". He's right.
The innovation jump from VMU to Wii-U pad is so vast by comparison they're barely the same lineage. A tiny dot matrix screen that barely had enough real estate to show a life meter in Res Evil? I'm not knocking the VMU, I loved it, but it's not the same idea as the Wii U pad.
The Wii U pad is going to bring new types of gameplay that we haven't seen before.
Spectacular Dr Dawg
Member
Carmack hasn't had a hand in the gameplay since Quake 3. And the games that he did have a (small) hand in the gameplay are still some of the best in the genre. Frankly, it's quite embarrassing how much worse modern shooters are.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Hell yeah.
I actually feel like they could've embraced that kind of thing more with the Wii/DS combo since everyone and their grandma owned one. It's like Nintendo got kind of burned on the GC/GBA connectivity that they were so excited about (and nobody else was), so they didn't really even explore it much the following gen. But the sad thing is, it totally would've worked this time. No wires, much huger install base, a handheld that can download stuff... everything that made connectivity unwieldy in the GC era has been improved. I hope they explore it more between Wii U/3DS. Or like you said just Wii U and its controller.
plagiarize
Banned
he never said anything that suggests he doesn't think developers can find new ways to innovate. it's just likely not going to come from higher fill rates and faster processors.
Journey isn't made possible by current gen consoles. Little Big Planet isn't made possible by current gen hardware (as the PSP is powerful enough to run the game with all its play create build share uniqueness intact).
they aren't examples of games made possible by the hardware technology, and that's all Carmack was saying. that that new technology in many ways isn't exciting to him because it won't breed innovation.
how you make the leap from that, to 'he is insulting developers of games that innovate without faster fill rates' i have no idea.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
It was for.... 10 minutes
Mutanthands
Member
We'll agree to disagree for now. Nintendo has the benefit of 13 years of technology.
I'll start a new thread...
Im so glad that carmack is pushing for the inevitable VR future. I completely agree that it is the next place we need to go. With a kinect-like camera doing some body tracking along with a move-like controller for general movement, with some VR headset would be incredible!
I want THAT to be next-generation!
I want THAT to be next-generation!
Refreshment.01
Member
Im not naive enough to believe the bolded part
I was compelled to include that because at one time Carmack was the some sort tech god higher than everyone else in the heavens. But with time some people have changed his mind in relation of how influential he still is.You got confused Kage
since the thread went a bit fast there. The user Utako posted:And i just said to Utako that Carmack is a tech guy not designer.
It doesn't need to be that complicated. Is just an engine that has wide spread use among important projects/companies, has good a toolset /support, it's versatile and keeps riding in the crest of the tech wave with updates. In the past something similar would be Quake 3 engine (id tech 3?) in the last years we could say it's Unreal 3 for now. Im aware there are more feature rich renderers around.
We don't know any of this for sure. For all we know, Wii-U pad will see the same gameplay we've seen on the big screen, but now split between two screens.
I wouldn't call anything we've seen on the Wii-U as innovative so far. We'll have to see what the future brings, though it's silly to jump to either conclusion.