symmetrical
Member
Nope, he's making sense. Can't be Penello.
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Metal Gear Solid V Res Confirmed: Sub-720p (PS3/360), 720p (XB1), 1080p (PS4)
- Thread starter DarkLordMalik
- Start date
Nope, he's making sense. Can't be Penello.
i have a question for someone more knowledgeable;
if the xbone version of a particular game is half the resolution but still has framerate issues, it must be because of bandwidth/rop issues, right? given how the xbone has only 2/3rds of the shaders (rather than 1/2), then the shader cores of xbone are going underutilised in a game that runs at 720p?
pretty shockingly mis-designed if true
if the xbone version of a particular game is half the resolution but still has framerate issues, it must be because of bandwidth/rop issues, right? given how the xbone has only 2/3rds of the shaders (rather than 1/2), then the shader cores of xbone are going underutilised in a game that runs at 720p?
pretty shockingly mis-designed if true
Uh, I think both of you need to read dennett's post again. They were responding to someone downplaying the difference, the comment literally ends with them saying that the difference 'is significant'.
symmetrical
Member
Not a mis-design. It's a decision by Microsoft mostly to make it an all in one media device. DDR3 is cheaper and for non-gaming applications it has less latency. They used the die space on the APU to have ESRAM to band aid the bandwidth difference.
So it's more like a pretty shockingly poor decision, not a mis-design.
Mass Effect
Member
Some funny gifs, a few "lazy/incompetent devs" comments, no real meltdowns though.
Mr. PlayStation
Member
You forgot to add First Person Shooters!
then i would submit to you this comparison...
first, consider the fact that the PS4 and Xbone use basically identical CPU architectures (some might argue the Xbone is MORE powerful on the CPU front because of the clock speed increase)....
then, take code for some future multiplatform game on the PS4...lets say CoD MW5 which is way down the line...1080p/60fps and its pushing the PS4 hardware pretty hard...and now DIRECTLY port it over to the Xbone and see how it runs (now obviously i know this doesnt translate perfectly but keep following me here)....
IN THEORY...the Xbone's CPU should be able to handle anything that the PS4's CPU can handle (and possibly even more)....but can the Xbone's GPU?? i would argue no, it could not...and would therefore...be a bottleneck...both within its own system...AND in comparison to the PS4...
Good god... I'm on the wrong site, I should be in there learning off those geniuses.
Byron Bluth
Banned
For everyone talking specs and bottlenecks I recommend you read this article before commenting again.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7528/the-xbox-one-mini-review-hardware-analysis
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7528/the-xbox-one-mini-review-hardware-analysis
riskVSreward
Member
There is no bottleneck in relation to different hardware.
razgriz417
Member
This, I'm all for this
Omnistalgic
Member
Hmmm...I wonder will this be norm or will devs grow more familiar with the x1 and find ways around the power difference.
More importantly, who will have the (arguably) better looking exclusives?
This resolution stuff I think only matters to the enthusiast and hardcore. I think a lot of ppl especially kids are still rocking a 720 set at home
More importantly, who will have the (arguably) better looking exclusives?
This resolution stuff I think only matters to the enthusiast and hardcore. I think a lot of ppl especially kids are still rocking a 720 set at home
simply put, my point is that a game coded for the PS4's hardware and then ported over to the Xbone, the GPU is going to be a bottleneck...its not gonna have the CU's or the ROPs to keep up...the CPU would generally be a wash
A combination of all three.
Byron Bluth
Banned
This person knows what they're talking about.
"The Chipworks PS4 teardown last week told us a lot about whats happened between the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 in terms of hardware. It turns out that Microsofts silicon budget was actually a little more than Sonys, at least for the main APU. The Xbox One APU is a 363mm^2 die, compared to 348mm^2 for the PS4s APU. Both use a similar 8-core Jaguar CPU (2 x quad-core islands), but they feature different implementations of AMDs Graphics Core Next GPUs. Microsoft elected to implement 12 compute units, two geometry engines and 16 ROPs, while Sony went for 18 CUs, two geometry engines and 32 ROPs. How did Sony manage to fit in more compute and ROP partitions into a smaller die area? By not including any eSRAM on-die."
That's from the Anandtech article I just posted.
freezamite
Banned
Bottlenecks only exist inside of a certain hardware. In other words, this only would mean that the Xbox One GPU is less powerful than the PS4's one.
A piece of hardware only becomes bottlenecked when because of one part of it being slow, the rest of the system can't perform as it's expected to perform. PERIOD.
riskVSreward
Member
So the GPU is the Xbone's bottleneck then? We don't need to compare it to any other system.
symmetrical
Member
Well the PS4's CPU speed has never ever been confirmed. So that's just a theory as well.
But based on your logic of porting a PS4 game to the X1. Yeah you can think the Xbone CPU will be able to handle whatever it is the PS4 can handle. And yes the GPU is what will be the bottleneck, hence the reduction of resolution since resolution is a GPU thing.
Then we start getting into memory bandwidth issues. High asset textures will flow like butter on a sunny day on the PS4's GDDR5, while I can't believe it's not butter on the X1 needs to be cut up, tiled, and fed directly into that small tube of ESRAM and then fed through the system RAM which results in even lower performance. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Technosteve
Banned
why can't kojima just show the pc version at 4k? why hide the best?
razgriz417
Member
He's not, he says he heard it from 1 source and didn't want any threads made from these 2 rumors
symmetrical
Member
dat balance
kikonawa
Member
Xbox 360 is almost 8.5 btw
exactly...so if i port a game straight from the PS4 to the Xbone the GPU is the bottleneck. PERIOD.
This is maybe interesting for you:
PS4 CPU is faster than Xbone's
Confirmed by Neogaf's own Matt (3rd Party Dev):
riskVSreward
Member
Ports aren't copy/paste jobs. Your scenario is irrelevant. You said bottlenecks only exist in relation to different pieces of hardware, which is completely fucking asinine.
Always-honest
Banned
Sure, there is also a lot you can't see yet. But there is a pretty large visible difference in iQ, textures, shaders, etc. Even lighting, though you can't tell how it will behave in motion.
Yea...looking at the XBO/360 comparison. Either that PS3/PS4 scene with the fence is a better indicator for vs. pics or the 360 is that much better than the PS3.
But anyone who says the old vs new gen pics dont look that different need to see post #70 with the pics more to their true size. Or look at the source pics. And looking at the source pics...yes last gen looks blurry vs current gen....all pics.
Reiterates my stance.....not buying anymore games for last gen unless its last gen exclusive. Wish I woulda held out on GTA 5 now...
meanspartan
Member
I wonder how long its going to take for all the people saying "well we don't know yet whether the power difference will be significant, it's still early!" to shut up.
IGN's Xbox podcast is notorious for this. We DO know, the GPUs are almost directly comparable. It isn't like Cell where a weird part was used that nobody understood. This is going to be the general rule this gen, Ps4 getting either higher framerates or resolution or both.
IGN's Xbox podcast is notorious for this. We DO know, the GPUs are almost directly comparable. It isn't like Cell where a weird part was used that nobody understood. This is going to be the general rule this gen, Ps4 getting either higher framerates or resolution or both.
freezamite
Banned
No, not at all. This is why I tell you that you don't know what a bottleneck is. It would be a bottleneck if because of the GPU, the CPU or any other part would have to idle and wait for it to finish its tasks.
If that's not the case, then it has no sense to use the word "bottleneck" here.
Welp........didn't we have a rule against these PC > * posts in the PS4/Xbone comparison threads?
i didnt say that at all actually
umm yes it would...assuming the CPU's are equal (because we have conflicting reports)...there are things the PS4 GPU can do that the Xbone's GPU simply cannot...so im trying to match the performance of the PS4 your bottleneck on the Xbone is going to be in the GPU
That's not fixed for everyone. I have constant problems having consistent framerates on my gaming laptop. I have to download third party programs to add a frame limiter to the 7970m GPU so that I don't constantly see fluctuations from 60fps down to 30fps in open world games. I also don't like how unoptimized many games are for hardware that should theoretically provide greater performance. You have to brute force some games' unoptimized code with beefy hardware.
And constantly being in my menus trying to figure out why my performance is fluctuating is a pain.
Then you get a game like Dark Souls and DSFix and then it becomes worth it when the alternative to my 1080p/60 version is the PS360's 720p/30 version. So it's a mix of frustration and relief depending on the game and not everyone wants to bother.
Every major release has a multi page "performance" thread with a ton of people having issues. You never get that with consoles unless there's a major bug.
Consoles are still the go-to place for "pop in game disc and play" gaming.
badcrumble
Member
Yep. Depending on how you see it, either the Xbox One's slow DDR3 ram or the tiny ESRAM is the bottleneck. Realistically, the ESRAM was meant to solve the problem of the DDR3 bottleneck but the small size of the ESRAM is proving to be also a bottleneck, even though the console is much, much better off with than without it.
I'm pretty sure it was. When the boxes were designed the XOne had the advantage of 8GB total RAM, but then DDR3 prices went up (due to less production) and GDDR5 prices went down making it possible for Sony to squeeze in bigger RAM modules for RAM parity. Had MS known this I think it would have been a similar design. Who wouldn't want 50% more raw power for the same or a slightly lower price?
Edit: While the slower memory is a part of the problem you have to remember that the GPU is also a lot smaller (again due to ESRAM). ROPs are important for higher resolutions and the PS4 happens to have twice as many while 1080p happens to be just over twice as many pixels as 720p. Fixing one issue wouldn't automatically make it as fast as the PS4.
And memory bandwidth. Those ESRAM figures MS throws around are when and if (ever) the stars align properly. PS4 has a consistent giant pipe to a HUGE pool of fast memory.
dennett316
Banned
Bottleneck is a specific term regarding the weak point within a specific system. The Xbone GPU is less powerful than the PS4's, it's not a bottleneck, it just doesn't stack up and isn't as capable. In short, you're using the term bottleneck wrong.
No-one is arguing the Xbone doesn't have a technical shortfall, they're arguing that you're using the term bottleneck wrong.
Well they should start supporting their own damn technology.
symmetrical
Member
Yup I realize memory is only one part of the problem. I was only replying to the fellow above that I think it's not really a mis-design, but more of a decision based on a lot of other factors. Decisions that are now probably haunting Microsoft.
freezamite
Banned
Even if the CPU's are equal, a bottleneck means that the CPU of the Xbox One can't perform as much tasks as it should because of the GPU being too slow.Metfanant said:
In your example, if the port was a straight up copy-paste then the GPU side of the game would be more impacted than the CPU side of it, but that doesn't mean that the GPU is a bottleneck, it just means that your program is designed towards a more powerful GPU.
In other words, nowadays GPUs are not bottlenecks because nothing strictly depends on their calculations, they're the ones depending on other pieces of hardware like the RAM or the CPU.
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