Support NeoGAF

[oneils]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I agree with your comment She's a mechanic who will be battling monsters...more clothing the better! (logic?)

seems strange that you would cover up her belly button but not her cleavage.

I thought the original bobble head style was pretty neat. that would have been cool. they would have looked fairly ridiculous with cleavage and exposed midriffs, though. I guess that is why he changed direction.

 

[joe2187]

Anyone else getting some Megaman legends vibes from the recent art designs?

 

[Biker19]

What the actual fuck. Most renowned Japanese artist even use Pixiv. If he want to talk directly to the said aritst, he could use Skype and no need to waste money on "talent searching". Who in the hell didn't use Pixiv in Japan if they are an artist?! Goddamnit I can't believe this, he even share his "joy side" of his supposedly "work trip".

EDIT: I'm still not sure whether if he use kickstarter money for that trip. But my point still stand that he doesn't need to go to japan just for talent searching. Pixiv already accommodate that, and he can save a lot of money.

There should be some kind of legal backing for people who fund kickstarters to avoid this kind of shady situations to happen and, when they do, make the people who received the money accountable for.

These. And if the owner of his Kickstarter for this game did use some of that Kickstarter money for anything else besides the money going towards making the game, then he needs to be called out on it & action needs to be taken.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

There´s should be some kind of legal backing for people who fund kickstarters to avoid this kind of shady situations to happen and, when they do, make the people who received the money accountable for.

The answer is for people to be more responsible and careful with their money. I'm sorry, but after seeing the initial KS page anybody who gave money to this was being foolish with their money. KS shouldn't take any responsibility in this. That's the whole point of the site and what allows it to work, otherwise they'd probably constantly be tied up in litigation.

 

[ampere]

Does this guy really have no resume to speak of? Nothing he can point to game-wise that he's worked on before? And he's a "one man team"? Why would you give him any money in the first place? You made a bad investment, OP, but it was just that, an investment.

This is the truth with Kickstarter.

I think the guy behind the Soul Saga game is going about things all wrong, but backing a Kickstarter is about trusting the team behind the game. Sometimes you get burned, sometimes it works out well, but it's a way to invest in a project. I trusted Tim Schafer and Double Fine for the "Adventure Game" (now Broken Age) Kickstarter, and I've had some mixed feelings with how the project went, though the final game does seem to be decent.

If he is deviating far enough from the proposed project that you feel he has breached the Kickstarter ToS, it might be worth reporting him to the site to see if any action can be taken.

 

[Cabal]

Found the original concept art for the main character. Thought he looked familiar... (Marche from FFTA)

Wow. Why the hell did he need to go to Japan to get an artist if he's just cribbing designs from Square. This sounds like a kickstarter gone bad. Hopefully the backers get a game out of it before the cease and desist comes in for the main character looking like Cloud.

 

[DiscoJer]

I think you definitely have to be careful when you donate to KSes from people who haven't done anything before.

For instance, I donated to this

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2066438441/haunts-the-manse-macabre

But then the guy decided to turn it from a fairly simple single player strategy game to a multiplayer game, then ran out of money.

OTOH, you have Whispering Willows, which keeps winning awards. While it's late, it seems to be due for release soon.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/daevo/whispering-willows-horror-puzzle-game-for-ouya-and/

 

[Paz]

People gave hundreds of thousands to someone who has never made a game before and are surprised at that person making mistakes instead of delivering the moon on a stick as promised....

He doesn't appear to be breaking any rules so I don't see why you should be entitled to a refund. Live & learn, if anything some more focus should be put on the hype kickstarters get and why it can be dangerous.

 

[Malyse]

This disappoint is strong here. Dinna back it, but was totes gonna give it a shot when it came out.

 

[SkeptiMism]

The cake is a lie!

No, but really, I was very skeptical about the project when it was on kickstarter. It seemed really cool but it was only one single dude. He seemed to promise way too much. His life story told in his blog sounded also really great, and he made it seem as if he had a lot of experience because of working at Microsoft and stuff, but apparently he was only working as a tester and stuff like that.

That said, I'm fairly sure he said during the kickstarter already that the chibi style won't remain. Not 100% sure though.

Will be interesting to see if anything comes of it in the end.

 

[Cerity]

Stuff like this is the main reason I haven't backed any kickstarters, indiegogo's and whatnot yet... It's easy to promise stuff and a lot can happen in the 2-3 years that most have until their planned release.

 

[vareon]

People gave hundreds of thousands to someone who has never made a game before and are surprised at that person making mistakes instead of delivering the moon on a stick as promised....

He doesn't appear to be breaking any rules so I don't see why you should be entitled to a refund. Live & learn, if anything some more focus should be put on the hype kickstarters get and why it can be dangerous.

Of all the things they could say to a (if OP is to be believed) polite request for refund, they banned him outright? This is less about mistakes in development and more about lessons in how to manage a community right.

 

[Aaron]

Stuff like this is the main reason I haven't backed any kickstarters, indiegogo's and whatnot yet... It's easy to promise stuff and a lot can happen in the 2-3 years that most have until their planned release.

Every game promised by actual developers has either come out or is closing in on release. These people have a lot to lose if they don't come through. If they burn their reputation, they aren't coming back to the kickstarter well. But if you give money to some guy with no real game experience, don't be surprised if the project goes to shit. All you have to do is use your brain, and your money won't be wasted.

 

[Paz]

Of all the things they could say to a (if OP is to be believed) polite request for refund, they banned him outright? This is less about mistakes in development and more about lessons in how to manage a community right.

Oh for sure that's not the way you should respond in a situation like that, but I also think people need to understand Kickstarter is not something you can pull out of if you don't like the direction a project is heading, so be careful about buying in to the hype that surrounds them.

For better or worse the projects I've backed are out of my hands now, and in most cases they were so early in development there's no way the developers could have guaranteed how they would end up.

 

[Perkel]

IMO new character design looks better to me.

as of thread.

Believing everything will be 100% like in kickstarter ESPECIALLY ART !

Reducing scope of game is valid concern, art is not.

 

[bluecapsule]

Every game promised by actual developers has either come out or is closing in on release. These people have a lot to lose if they don't come through. If they burn their reputation, they aren't coming back to the kickstarter well. But if you give money to some guy with no real game experience, don't be surprised if the project goes to shit. All you have to do is use your brain, and your money won't be wasted.

Agreed. I have no qualms with backing Project Eternity or Star Citizen, as I have no doubt those guys will deliver. Kickstarter is a great way to support projects like those. When it's a project from somebody who has no experience or track record, I'd rather be prudent and take the wait and see approach.

 

[Bboy AJ]

The way people defend Kickstarter makes me want to start a disingenuous campaign. I'll ask for a menial sum of money and run with it. It would be brilliant. Not only will I be held unaccountable, but you'll also have GAFers berating anyone who criticizes me. "You 'invested,' you should have done your research, it's not a preorder..." All this ridiculous bullshit to not hold the bums accountable. This "support devs" mantra is nonsense.

The mental gymnastics a majority of GAF pulls is absurd. Then again, why anyone backs KS these days is beyond me. A year ago or so, OK, it was still new and exciting. But today, forget about it. Let people figure out their own financing. That's part of the experience.

 

[zeopower6]

IIRC, a lot of people asked if he used KS money for the Japan trip, and I recall he said that he didn't. This was just after he got back from the trip. It should be archived on YouTube or Twitch.

Also, he did get artists from that trip, though most of them were environmental artists and such. I think one of those ended up becoming the main character designer after the other one left the project suddenly.

 

[Bboy AJ]

IIRC, a lot of people asked if he used KS money for the Japan trip, and I recall he said that he didn't. This was just after he got back from the trip. It should be archived on YouTube or Twitch

...no one really believes this, do they? The guy goes out of the way to talk about how frugal his trip was in case there would be a backlash.

 

[Aaron]

The way people defend Kickstarter makes me want to start a disingenuous campaign. I'll ask for a menial sum of money and run with it. It would be brilliant. Not only will I be held unaccountable, but you'll also have GAFers berating anyone who criticizes me. "You 'invested,' you should have done your research, it's not a preorder..." All this ridiculous bullshit to not hold the bums accountable. This "support devs" mantra is nonsense.

The mental gymnastics a majority of GAF pulls is absurd. Then again, why anyone backs KS these days is beyond me. A year ago or so, OK, it was still new and exciting. But today, forget about it. Let people figure out their own financing. That's part of the experience.

You would just fail like the majority of these sort of kickstarters do. Like Dennis Dydack did since he had burned his credibility. While the majority of funded kickstarters have either released games or are on track to do so. To talk about shutting the whole system down because 1% might be scam artists... that's absurd. That's bullshit. Instead, we have dozens of good games that wouldn't have existed otherwise. The results speak for themselves, while the scams are very very easy to avoid if you just use a little common sense.

 

[Timeaisis]

I hate to be all "DetectiveGAF" and chastise this guy, but honestly, all signs are pointing this is his first real game outing. And that is kind of sad, because he got like $200K on kickstarter by convincing people this proejct is doable. Props to the guy for putting together a great KS package, but it still really rubs me the wrong way. Note that I'm not calling for a lynch mob here, just noticing some facts about this guy that that he has seemed to have overstated.

On his website, it lists that he worked at Microsoft after moving to Seattle on a whim. Not only does he mention how long he was there, it doesn't mention his job title.

http://www.disastercake.com/blog/soul-saga-update-10-why-im-standing-here-today/

To my surprise, I got a job at Microsoft working on games within the first week! It was an amazing feeling to have landed something like that in such a short time. My family was very proud.

You'd think this would be outlined if they were impressive (Systems programmer at MS, Game Designer at MS, Environmental artist at MS, etc, etc.). Even entry level stuff is impressive at a big game development house like MS Games. I mean, come on.

The next thing I noticed was that he claims to have worked on Fable 3 and "a few other titles". Now I'm unfamiliar with Microsoft Game's organizational structure, but most of the time if you are working on a game, you are with that team for a while to finish that project, and then you move on to something else. So either he was with Microsoft long enough to work on multiple projects, or he was in a role that caused him to move around a lot. From a separate interview:

I’ve made several mods across different games like Warcraft 3 and Starcraft. But my professional work experience comes from my time at Microsoft where I had my hand in many games such as Gears of War 3, Age of Empires Online, Fable 3, and a bunch of others.

http://bossdungeon.com/quitting-your-job-to-create-an-rpg-interview-with-disastercakes-mike-gale-about-soul-saga/

Three games he's had his "hand" in. That's interesting. It's important to note that all these games came out in 2011 (Fable Windows edition, that is, which I might note that MS was a publisher of, not a developer), and all in about a 3 month window from each other. It stands to reason that these games had decently long development cycles, and team members were most likely not jumping from project to project during development.

Finally, he states he was on contract at MS:

I finished up my contract and then decided to spend the next 2 years teaching myself how to REALLY make Soul Saga happen.

Now I'm no expert on the game industry, but I've had enough industry experience to know that someone who works for a publisher and that jumps from project to project in a very short time frame and is on contract has one of two jobs: contract artist or Quality Assurance. The fact that these all were released close to one another leads me to conclude that he was most likely a QA Tester for MS Game Studios. Also, of course, that he is contracting all his art out. Surely, an artist would probably make some of his own assets.

For my final piece of information I dug up was his linkedin. I don't wish to link the site out of respect for his profile, but no where does he list his game experience at Microsoft, further leading me to believe that he in fact was in QA. Also, his only education is listed as Associates of Business Management from Bellevue Community College, which, according to his website, was done after he quit his job at MS. Before that, no education is listed.

Therefore, I can comfortably say that the person behind Soul Saga had a negligible amount of industry experience before starting work on the project. I have to be honest, the first time I came to the kickstarter, I took his "game industry experience" comments at face value and assumed he worked at MS in a game development role of some kind. But that is not the case. Contract QA at a game publisher has pretty much no creative input of any kind into a project, and doesn't really have any development experience built up either.

I'm sorry for having to break the bad news, I know many of you probably already had this figured out. I just wanted to everyone else know.

As a final thought, I just want to say that I'm not trying to crucify the creator for any decisions he made. He ran a very good kickstarter and got a lot of people believing in his vision. I'm also not criticizing the game idea on principle. What I am criticizing is his gross overestimation of his abilities, and the fact that he made it seem like he has experience developing games when he clearly does not. I do, however those who donated will take this as a learning experience for being wary of kickstarters that look too-good-to-be-true. And, to Mike Gale, I hope he learns a lesson or two about game development along the way. It's no easy feat. Especially alone.

 

[element]

IIRC, a lot of people asked if he used KS money for the Japan trip, and I recall he said that he didn't.

He doesn't have a job, so his only income is the KS money. So anything he does is in fact money from the KS.

Even if he did use money to go to Japan, he could have just said it was a business trip. Though I'm still confused why one would even need to go and why he is targeting talent from Japan.

Just exposes that this guy probably didn't really have a gameplan in the first place on how to ship the game.

 

[Bboy AJ]

You would just fail like the majority of these sort of kickstarters do. Like Dennis Dydack did since he had burned his credibility. While the majority of funded kickstarters have either released games or are on track to do so. To talk about shutting the whole system down because 1% might be scam artists... that's absurd. That's bullshit. Instead, we have dozens of good games that wouldn't have existed otherwise. The results speak for themselves, while the scams are very very easy to avoid if you just use a little common sense.

The results do speak for themselves. The great games would have still came to be because the great devs have passion for what they do. It'll get done no matter what. They won't let a lack of funding stop their project, no matter how long it takes. It's just easier to sell in advance. But you know what preordering gets you? A big fat dick in your mouth. And plenty of gamers are not only willing to accept it, they're willing to defend it.

The gaming community is quick to forget. How many times have people denounced MS, EA, etc. It doesn't matter. They'll come back.

 

[firehawk12]

You know, I totally forgot I backed this. So far I haven't really had a dud Kickstarter, so I hope this isn't the first one...

 

[Aaron]

The results do speak for themselves. The great games would have still came to be because the great devs have passion for what they do. It'll get done no matter what. They won't let a lack of funding stop their project, no matter how long it takes. It's just easier to sell in advance. But you know what preordering gets you? A big fat dick in your mouth. And plenty of gamers are not only willing to accept it, they're willing to defend it.

I'm sorry you believe this bullshit, but it's not reality. Ask any game dev, and he'll tell you about the games he wanted to make but never had the chance to. Look at Rare and their wall of art for game projects they weren't allowed to do. Look at all the studios that have completely collapsed in recent years due to the loss of publisher support. Passion means a lot. It means one guy spending nearly every waking moment for five years to make Gunpoint, which is a great game, but he would never make something like Broken Age. He's never going to make Pillars of Eternity or Wasteland 2. They're just too large and detailed for a 2-3 people to produce, and you're still asking them to sacrifice their lives and potentially their futures on a passion project that might not catch fire with the masses enough for them to do it again.

Kickstarter lets a small developer produce a project that most publishers wouldn't back, free of publisher restraints and at a pace that won't kill themselves in the process. Sure, there are some people who will take advantage... that's true of everything in the entire world. If you want more unique and interesting game experiences, but also want to spend your money wisely, then just read the damn kickstarter. Experienced developer known for delivering projects on time? Probably a safe place to put your money. Some guy out of college pasting up someone else's art for what he thinks is his dream game? Probably never coming out.

Another example. Brad Muir of Doublefine had a Monster Hunter like game he really wanted to make, to the point they even produced a prototype. He shopped it around to every publisher on the planet, but none of them would back it. He was so burned out by this process that he gave up on the game completely, and went to kickstarter with an entirely different idea. So a year's worth of passion was wasted, but kickstarter support Massive Chalice is coming along well.

 

[element]

Now I'm no expert on the game industry, but I've had enough industry experience to know that someone who works for a publisher and that jumps from project to project in a very short time frame and is on contract has one of two jobs: contract artist or Quality Assurance. The fact that these all were released close to one another leads me to conclude that he was most likely a QA Tester for MS Game Studios. Also, of course, that he is contracting all his art out. Surely, an artist would probably make some of his own assets.

He was a tester, and a very low tier one at that. He changed his Linkedin. He used to have Microsoft, which as a contractor you aren't suppose to do. You work at your agency, on-site at Microsoft.

Testing is typically broken down into:

• Work embed with the development team
• Work on-site at the developer, but not part of development team
• Work at publisher on main test team
• Work at publisher on reserves

The first three typically work on a game for a significant amount of time and can have some level of impact on the final product, especially anyone working at the developer. Reserves are typically your large team (20 to 50 testers) who bang on the game for 2 or 3 months.

Looking at MobyGames you can see that Michael Gale worked on the Reserve Test Team or Multiplayer Lab Testers for the contract agency, Aditi.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/fable-iii/credits
http://www.mobygames.com/game/xbox360/fusion-genesis/credits

I've known some great people to come out of testing who have gone on to become great artists, designers, marketing, community managers, programmers and so on, but no one would ever be so bullish to think that they can make an JRPG scale game by themselves after spending a couple months after their first job. Especially not someone with soft skills (not a programmer or artist by trade).

 

[Bboy AJ]

you're still asking them to sacrifice their lives and potentially their futures on a passion project that might not catch fire with the masses enough for them to do it again.

Yes, I am. If here is where we disagree, we'll never see eye to eye. If a dev isn't willing to do that, or make time to make it happen, then OK. I will miss out on their 'gem.' Some other game will occupy my time, as harsh as that sounds.

 

[Aaron]

Yes, I am. If here is where we disagree, we'll never see eye to eye. If a dev isn't willing to do that, or make time to make it happen, then OK. I will miss out on their 'gem.' Some other game will occupy my time, as harsh as that sounds.

It sounds narrow minded and self defeating to me, but your entitled to your views and how you spend your money. Almost nothing in the world runs on passion alone. I'm not sure why you're holding game developers to a higher standard than everyone else on the planet.

 

[Erico]

For a one-man-project to succeed, that one man needs to bring some bonafide skills to the table to make up for the limited resources.

As for these skills, this guy is shooting zeroes across the board: no programming experience, no art talent, no creative lead experience, no project management experience. No amount of enthusiasm can make up for this.

Funding this guy is like asking a random Apple enthusiast to design and build a working iPhone.

 

[element]

Yes, I am. If here is where we disagree, we'll never see eye to eye. If a dev isn't willing to do that, or make time to make it happen, then OK. I will miss out on their 'gem.' Some other game will occupy my time, as harsh as that sounds.

Passion can only take you so far. At the end of the day you have bills to pay and a business to run. I think the weakness on this is shared passion. Going solo on this and thinking you can just plug in the art was a huge mistake.

For a one-man-project to succeed, that one man needs to bring some bonafide skills to the table to make up for the limited resources.

Great example of a one man team is RimWorld. Background, worked on Bioshock Infinite. Wrote a book called Designing Games for O'Reilly Media. Background, pedigree, and connections all check. Also he had a much better idea of what he is going to build (already had it work in alpha).

 

[Cheshire_Buddha]

Damn, this sucks.

I remember when this project was first announced and being hyped for it, but after hearing that it's changed so much I think I'm going to have to walk away from this one. Hopefully the finished product will be decent, but I'm so glad I didn't shell out money like I was planning on doing.

Also, the new main character design is complete crap.

 

[Bboy AJ]

I'm not sure why you're holding game developers to a higher standard than everyone else on the planet.

It's actually quite the opposite. I think people give developers an incredibly lower standard. There's so much "support developers" talk on here it's nauseating. The idea of people funding me in advance, while gaining no equity in a future reward, is baffling.

I'd feel a lot better if KS removed their rewards. It would be looked at as actual donations rather than preorders.

 

[Mirin]

I understand the benefits of KS from developer's point of view, but I will never understand why people like to throw money away on some nebulous projects on kickstarter the same way I don't understand why people are so eager to part with their money on preordering games. Why would anybody pay for things before they know whether it will be good or bad is just beyond me. But again, without suckers backing kickstarters, the whole enterprise would cease to exist.

By the way, here is a bonus something something with a fancy title attached to your status to make you feel special, now give me your money and shut the hell up cause you ain't the designer yo.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Not gonna lie I supported the Kickstarter and have been an apologist for most of his decisions thinking he was a professional, but so far he doesn't seem to have made jack shit of progress due to all of the design changes.

I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of months he says he ran out of money and that he can't continue it. Don't know if it's a scam as at the very least he had videos showcasing possible gameplay and models, he might have just been way too overly ambitious and doesn't have the management skills or the experience to pull this off by himself.

Shame too because I was looking forward to playing this on my PS4. Maybe I'm wrong and he HAS made progress but the last couple of updates have been "here's a redesign for [blank] character, this friday I'm playing [blank] game and streaming it be sure to join us!"

He has lost the confidence and trust of many of his backers and doesn't seem to want to discuss it without acting like a kid. He's like Phil Fish, only Phil Fish at least was able to complete his game.

I understand the benefits of KS from developer's point of view, but I will never understand why people like to throw money away on some nebulous projects on kickstarter the same way I don't understand why people are so eager to part with their money on preordering games. Why would anybody pay for things before they know whether it will be good or bad is just beyond me. But again, without suckers backing kickstarters, the whole enterprise would cease to exist.

By the way, here is a bonus something something with a fancy title attached to your status to make you feel special, now give me your money and shut the hell up cause you ain't the designer yo.

Personally I supported him because the original KS presentation had a video, cool design and the guy seemed experience enough. He even listed Microsoft as a previous employer so I assumed (naive) that he knew what he was doing. At the very least this will open my eyes over what I decide to back.

 

[Salamando]

Also he had a much better idea of what he is going to build (already had it work in alpha).

When I backed this, I thought he had a good idea of where he wanted to take it. He even had pre-alpha battle footage using stock backgrounds. Wasn't much, but having characters rendered in 3d who were animated to attack was enough to sell me. Lesson learned, I guess.

Despite this project, I have no problem with developers soliciting money. The arts have always had its patrons.

 

[Aaron]

It's actually quite the opposite. I think people give developers an incredibly lower standard. There's so much "support developers" talk on here it's nauseating. The idea of people funding me in advance, while gaining no equity in a future reward, is baffling.

I'd feel a lot better if KS removed their rewards. It would be looked at as actual donations rather than preorders.

I can't think of any other profession that comes close to your lofty standard, and I've known some actual starving artists. You know what they do? Mostly starve. They don't make much art. They don't have the time or energy. When they gain a patron, which is what kickstarter is, they can produce amazing works. Do you think Michelangelo would have produced his great works on passion alone? Because I have to tell you those paints and stone blocks didn't come free. Whether it was wealthy Italian merchants or the Church, someone was footing the bill before he even started work. And they did so because he developed a reputation for results, like some developers who use kickstarter. You think he could have produced the Sistine Chapel if he had to take a second job just to eat? Damn thing took him forever as it was. But I've seen it in person, and I think the Church got their money's worth and then some.

 

[Kieli]

It's actually quite the opposite. I think people give developers an incredibly lower standard. There's so much "support developers" talk on here it's nauseating. The idea of people funding me in advance, while gaining no equity in a future reward, is baffling.

I'd feel a lot better if KS removed their rewards. It would be looked at as actual donations rather than preorders.

I agree with this part. I think perception needs to change regarding what you are doing when you are clicking that "pledge" button.

You are NOT an investor (OP said it's a matter of semantics; I disagree. Investment implies a level of legal commitment on the part of the firm to produce the promised good or service). At the same time, I think it's even more disingenuous to think that you are making a pre-order. The very nature of the Kickstarter precludes that.

What (I feel) you are fundamentally doing is making a charitable donation to fund or "kickstart" a project that would have never otherwise been made. At the time you click pledge, you should accept that the money you donated is no longer yours. It's now up to the developers to spend as they wish to create the game they promised to create (with no legal obligations to create it beyond being sued).

If you suddenly do not like the direction that a game is going towards (games experience immense flux; even complete genre changes a la Halo), asking for a refund does MORE harm to the developer than was gained by you pledging in the first place. It's like your pulling a rug beneath them.

At that point, you just shouldn't have donated in the first place and allow the project to run its course (to death, or to success [and then reap the profits]).

Naturally, all of the above can be avoided if you use even just a tiny bit of common sense... You don't have to be a senior software dev to know what's immensely infeasible and will never see the light of day.

-----

This part is where I disagree with what you said (I'm not trying to change your opinion; I know it's cast in stone). When you donate, I think you should just accept the money isn't yours. If you can't accept that, don't donate. It's a shame it's this way, but until Kickstarter changes, you have to take be more prudent with your money (though I want to make it clear I'm not victim-blaming or absolving scammers of their crime).

 

[Bboy AJ]

I can't think of any other profession that comes close to your lofty standard, and I've known some actual starving artists. You know what they do? Mostly starve. They don't make much art. They don't have the time or energy. When they gain a patron, which is what kickstarter is, they can produce amazing works. Do you think Michelangelo would have produced his great works on passion alone? Because I have to tell you those paints and stone blocks didn't come free. Whether it was wealthy Italian merchants or the Church, someone was footing the bill before he even started work. And they did so because he developed a reputation for results, like some developers who use kickstarter. You think he could have produced the Sistine Chapel if he had to take a second job just to eat? Damn thing took him forever as it was. But I've seen it in person, and I think the Church got their money's worth and then some.

Who did the Church belong to? Who does the statue belong to? Who directly profited from them? Was Michaelangelo making any money off of it?

I blame your mindset on this weird distortion of what people believe the word "investment" means.

 

[Lord Panda]

The creator should be allowed to make any changes he sees fit during development, whether it's changes in artstyle, gameplay or scope.

But it should be also allowed for backers to voice their concerns and, if presented in a respectful manner, to be heard and if they aren't happy with the product (for whatever reason) to request a refund.

The developer sounds like a douche who can't handle criticism. You aren't in the wrong, OP, and I'm sorry it turned out like this.

The creator is still beholden to his supporters if he decides to significantly alter the original premise that sold the pitch in the first place.

For him to act in such a manbaby / immature fashion towards one of his backers really says a lot about him.

 

[element]

Shame too because I was looking forward to playing this on my PS4.

Knowing a little about licensing and getting onto a platform, when I see things like this it gets me upset because even with Sony and Microsoft streamlining their process for self publishing, it is still FUCKING HARD. You still got a make a game, test the game, get it through certification. None of this is easy or cheap.

From his blog posts it appears he is using Unity, and even IF you get the right tools from Sony and Microsoft, it isn't a simple 'save as PS4' to get it running. Perhaps if you an experienced programmer, you could get something running fairly quickly, but even then there is a huge difference between running and shipping.

It seems like he just listed every console that had some type of 'indie' publishing to generate more pledges.

When I backed this, I thought he had a good idea of where he wanted to take it. He even had pre-alpha battle footage using stock backgrounds. Wasn't much, but having characters rendered in 3d who were animated to attack was enough to sell me. Lesson learned, I guess.

Considering that those videos were the only 'gameplay' to have ever been seen, it wouldn't shock me if they were all smoke and mirrors. Pretty much a sizzle reel of triggered animations and menus added in After Effects or Premiere.

Even without assets you can still build the combat system and update the art and animations later. Hell put some cubes, say they are characters. Use some random effects. Blam.

 

[Kieli]

Who did the Church belong to? Who does the statue belong to? Who directly profited from them? Was Michaelangelo making any money off of it?

I blame your mindset on this weird distortion of what people believe the word "investment" means.

Unless I'm misinterpreting his point, these questions are irrelevant to what he (or she) is discussing.

He's essentially arguing that Kickstarter has justified its own existence by allowing for the potential of great work that wouldn't see the light of day.

Whether anyone profits from the work or who owns its rights is secondary to the fact that it (Kickstarter) has opened the gates for potentially great works to be made (irrespective of the crap and scams that flood it; because what other industry doesn't have crap being made?).

 

[kairu]

I like the art for the first redesign. With the trench coat, and stuff.

 

[Aaron]

Who did the Church belong to? Who does the statue belong to? Who directly profited from them? Was Michaelangelo making any money off of it?

I blame your mindset on this weird distortion of what people believe the word "investment" means.

I talk about patronage and you bring up investment, then accusing me of distortion? Kickstarter has never been about investment. It's patronage. It's a very old concept. It's giving money to people to produce the things you love, whether it's art, music, or videogames. Without that money, some of these things will never exist. If a talented developer asks for money to produce a game that you want and you say no based on abstract principle, the only person who loses out is you.

 

[Bboy AJ]

Unless I'm misinterpreting his point, these questions are irrelevant to what he (or she) is discussing.

He's essentially arguing that Kickstarter has justified its own existence by allowing for the potential of great work that wouldn't see the light of day.

Whether anyone profits from the work or who owns its rights is secondary to the fact that it (Kickstarter) has opened the gates for potentially great works to be made (irrespective of the crap and scams that flood it; because what other industry doesn't have crap being made?).

The answers to my questions mean everything. They're the difference between donations and investments. You can't use a Michaelangelo example to discuss KS. That's so off the wall, it makes no sense. They didn't donate. They let the guy build something so they could have something better that belonged to them, in the end.

I mean, sure, if we can all agree that KS isn't an investment, I'm better. I still think KS is shit, though. People should either donate or take equity. No preordering. I hate how developers don't have to give a slice of the equity pie. All the reward, none of the risk. All in the name of this "support the developers" movement.

 

[Kieli]

I talk about patronage and you bring up investment, then accusing me of distortion? Kickstarter has never been about investment. It's patronage. It's a very old concept. It's giving money to people to produce the things you love, whether it's art, music, or videogames. Without that money, some of these things will never exist. If a talented developer asks for money to produce a game that you want and you say no based on abstract principle, the only person who loses out is you.

Agreed. This is a question of donation, not investment. You are taking a risk by donating.

With Kickstarter being as it is right now, you need to either accept that risk or let others accept it.

Developers need to accept that they have made a specific pledge and they should do their best to uphold it.

That is about the extent of the relationship between pledger and the Kickstarter. If you want any more than that, I suggest you do it through more legal means.

 

[Ravidrath]

Knowing a little about licensing and getting onto a platform, when I see things like this it gets me upset because even with Sony and Microsoft streamlining their process for self publishing, it is still FUCKING HARD. You still got a make a game, test the game, get it through certification. None of this is easy or cheap.

From his blog posts it appears he is using Unity, and even IF you get the right tools from Sony and Microsoft, it isn't a simple 'save as PS4' to get it running. Perhaps if you an experienced programmer, you could get something running fairly quickly, but even then there is a huge difference between running and shipping.

It seems like he just listed every console that had some type of 'indie' publishing to generate more pledges.

Yeah, even though we included testing in our budget, it's still something I forget about sometimes.

It costs us $20-30k for us to test a one Skullgirls patch on two platforms. And that is a hell of a lot smaller scope than a whole JRPG.

Professional testing for his entire game is likely to be significantly more than his entire initial budget, possibly even his final KS amount. And he's going to need to do that before he can even submit it to Sony.

 

[Famassu]

makes me feel glad the only thing I've ever backed is the Sensible Software book, which I have and it's incredible (great attitude from those who made it, as well)

Using this as some kind of argument against Kickstarter or "being glad that project X is the only thing I backed" is silly. This is exactly the kind of projcet that, imho, should've set off a lot of alarm bells in anyone's head (the dev has absolutely no experience, budget seemed wholly unrealistic for a 3d JRPG that would be released on multiple platforms etc.), which is why I personally never even planned to pledge money for the project even though I'm a fan of JRPGs and would love to get more support for Vita, but I guess the Kickstarter craze was starting and people didn't really give as much thought into what they were backing as they do now.

I still think KS is shit, though. People should either donate or take equity. No preordering. I hate how developers don't have to give a slice of the equity pie. All the reward, none of the risk. All in the name of this "support the developers" movement.

Not all of us are as selfish as you are.

 

[Aaron]

The answers to my questions mean everything. They're the difference between donations and investments. You can't use a Michaelangelo example to discuss KS. That's so off the wall, it makes no sense. They didn't donate. They let the guy build something so they could have something better that belonged to them, in the end.

Yes. This is called patronage. Just like if you back a game on kickstarter you get the game, or other goodies at higher levels, which sometimes includes art and other things unique for that particular backer.

 

[Kieli]

The answers to my questions mean everything. They're the difference between donations and investments. You can't use a Michaelangelo example to discuss KS. That's so off the wall, it makes no sense. They didn't donate. They let the guy build something so they could have something better that belonged to them, in the end.

I mean, sure, if we can all agree that KS isn't an investment, I'm better. I still think KS is shit, though. People should either donate or take equity. No preordering. I hate how developers don't have to give a slice of the equity pie. All the reward, none of the risk. All in the name of this "support the developers" movement.

Ah, I see where you are coming from.

Reading it again, I agree that the Michaelangelo example might not be best as he was under much greater obligation to deliver (although I still think it serves the purpose of illustrating that without funding for the arts, it couldn't and wouldn't be made).

With respect to your points about KS not being an investment and KS being a bad system, I agree on both fronts. Hence, it is very important for people to think critically before they throw money at a project with some cool pictures and awesome pledge (because anyone can do that given enough time; have they shown proof that they can deliver?).

 

[genbatzu]

Why did he change it to this degree? People funded it based on the original designs and the developers obviously liked them enough originally to put that foot forward.

Changing them to that extent costs some serious time and money.

i backed this for 2 reasons: the original design and psvita version... tbh, both redesigns look bad in comparison to the original design... and why did he changed the female protagonist(?) from blond with long hair -> blond short hair -> to red hair? ôo, not to mention from chibi heads -> to tiny heads -> to normal heads. ...