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New Nikkei articles shares some information about the situation at Konami

L

Lethe82

Banned
Gator86 said:
Kojima only uses top of the line poop gags. You get what you pay for.

In all seriousness though, it's no wonder he's on the street now. That's a ton of money to spend on a title like MGS.
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1. That budget isn't huge for Modern AAA
2. Ground Zeroes has sold over 1 million (probably closer to 2 million at this point) and if they made even a meager 10 dollar per copies sold then they've already at the upper end recouped 20 million of the budget before the game is even out.
3. Fox Engine.
 
J

jackal27

Banned
Instro said:
In retrospect, it was all downhill after the incredible E3 2010 conference.
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What looked like a light mistep turned out to be indicative of a much larger problem... I wonder if the reaction to that conference influenced some of this.

I wonder how the folks behind that conference were treated afterward...
 
kruis

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
AndyMoogle said:
MGSV is on 5 platforms. It's not like they won't get their money back and then some.
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Five platforms, two of which are currently moribund. I don't think PS3 and 360 software sales are going to amount to much compared to PS4 and Xbone.
 
B

Boke1879

Member
Agent Unknown said:
'Being delegated to security/cleanup.' Someone who works for a third party in Japan who I stay in touch with last year said "One guy who made all the classic music" at Konami was transferred to security. He says fortunately this guy "embraced" his role and ended being head of security in that department and was able to make the best if it. But that is the exception because my source confirmed what the Nikkei article said in that, when you get moved to a non game related area that obviously means mgmt wants you out as it's hard to fire people due to HR quirks in Japan.

I privately asked him if he could identify exactly which composer it was, He couldn't confirm exactly who exactly it was but he knew it was true because it was info from a AAA director he works directly with who still has connections within KCEJ. He said this occurred during the "DraColle gold rush" (poker game) and since then "literally all of their old school devs are relegated to that division."

The reason this came up in conversation was because it was around the time Iga left last year and everyone was talking about how it was becoming apparent that Konami doesn't value their talent anymore.

Just think, a lot of the guys who worked on stuff like Gradius, Contra and Castlevania are now being forced to sit behind security desks and check the locks on the doors.
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Truly just a damn shame.
 
A

Agent Unknown

Member
Seyavesh said:
since you seem to be connected, i gotta ask if japanese work culture in general has this kinda structure to it? it feels like i've read a lot on how toxic it is to where konami's practices almost seem 'standard' but i'm curious how much of a deviation they really are from the norm in regards to that kinda shit
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Sorry, that's all the light I can shed on this. All my source would say regarding that bit is for some reason "management and HR protocol in Japan makes it hard to outright fire someone" which is part of why those guys are where they are now (aside from the fact Konami has become a garbage company of course). It certainly sounds very odd compared to how easy it is for most American companies to fire people for whatever reason.

Coen said:
Is it really that hard to get a decent job in game development, with a resume like that none the less, in Japan, that someone would actually consider security an opportunity instead of punishment?

I remember reading an article on the rather normal working conditions at Good Feel, but they made it sound like a gift from God. That article makes a lot more sense now, having read all this.
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Do you have a link to that article? I'd love to read it, trying to learn more about Good Feel, currently obsessed with them thanks to the fact I'm currently playing through Epic Yarn and looking forward to Woolly World.
 
S

SolicitorPirate

Member
Agent Unknown said:
Sorry, that's all the light I can shed on this. All my source would say regarding that bit is for some reason HR protocol in Japan makes it hard to outright fire someone which is part of why those guys are where they are now (aside from the fact Konami has become a garbage company of course).
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Japan doesn't have laws against constructive dismissal?
 
J

jackal27

Banned
Agent Unknown said:
'Being delegated to security/cleanup.' Someone who works for a third party in Japan who I stay in touch with last year said "One guy who made all the classic music" at Konami was transferred to security. He says fortunately this guy "embraced" his role and ended being head of security in that department and was able to make the best if it. But that is the exception because my source confirmed what the Nikkei article said in that, when you get moved to a non game related area that obviously means mgmt wants you out as it's hard to fire people due to HR quirks in Japan.

I privately asked him if he could identify exactly which composer it was, He couldn't confirm exactly who exactly it was but he knew it was true because it was info from a AAA director he works directly with who still has connections within KCEJ. He said this occurred during the "DraColle gold rush" (poker game) and since then "literally all of their old school devs are relegated to that division."

The reason this came up in conversation was because it was around the time Iga left last year and everyone was talking about how it was becoming apparent that Konami doesn't value their talent anymore.

Just think, a lot of the guys who worked on stuff like Gradius, Contra and Castlevania are now being forced to sit behind security desks and check the locks on the doors.
Click to expand...

This is the worst thing my eyes have ever read. These people should be passing on their art or making new things, but instead they're relegated to Joe Jobs. Screw Konami.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
$80 million is a pretty sizable investment for just a development budget, especially given that at a more common currency conversion it's around $100 million.

If that's inclusive of marketing, it's more normal for a game like that, but just because you see a number like that on Call of Duty, that doesn't mean it's the everyday norm.

Those games also sell about 4-5 times what Metal Gear does.

That said, Konami sounds like a fundamentally broken company.
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Lethe82 said:
1. That budget isn't huge for Modern AAA
2. Ground Zeroes has sold over 1 million (probably closer to 2 million at this point) and if they made even a meager 10 dollar per copies sold then they've already at the upper end recouped 20 million of the budget before the game is even out.
3. Fox Engine.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately that's not how profits work iirc. >.>
 
N

NZerker12

Member
I find it absolutely disgusting on how they are treating their employees. It looks like Konami is also trash internally as well as externallly. Hopefully those employees within can land on their feet and get out of that cesspool known as Konami.
 
V

Vinterbird

Member
80 million before marketing is a lot of actual development money.

And it's no use comparing it to most other budgets we know, since they all speak of the collective expense of the project (development + marketing), and without an actual breakdown for those games, we don't know whether it cost 20 or 50 million to make Destiny, Tomb a Raider or any kind of big AAA game these days.
 
A

Agent Unknown

Member
jackal27 said:
This is the worst thing my eyes have ever read. These people should be passing on their art or making new things, but instead they're relegated to Joe Jobs.
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Pretty much. It's like the bizarro world equivalent of Nintendo telling people like Koji Kondo and Tezuka "Sorry, you guys are no longer needed in your current areas of music composition and game production. Please put on Barney Fife outfits and go make sure the buildings are secure."

Edit: As crazy as that scenario sounds, my source confirmed it's true and happening at Konami. In fact he re-iterated this to me just a few months ago. Me: 'They're "in security" now as in not, "IT type security stuff" but security as in sitting behind a desk and clear people to enter the building, check doors, ect?' Him: 'That's right, all of their old school game devs are in the security division.'
 
D

DieH@rd

Banned
I am not surprised at the $80M figure.

This game is a very ambitious nextgen project, a first open world game for a studio, and on top of that, KojiPro created a brand new and highly capable engine for it.

I still blame Konami for the fallout. They simply want to move from console gaming at all cost to the mobile gaming and "Erotic Violence" adaptations of all their previous franchises.
 
A

akira28

Member
Agent Unknown said:
Pretty much. It's like the bizarro world equivalent of Nintendo telling people like Koji Kondo and Tezuka "Sorry, you guys are no longer needed in your current areas of music composition and game production. Please put on Barney Fife outfits and go make sure the buildings are secure."
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they get sent out with the starting inventory of a survival horror game. A flashlight, some typing tape, some chewing gum.

seems like they're not necessarily expected to come back.
 
J

JimmyHoffa04

Neo Member
I have worked with Konami as a 3rd party dev. The email thing is absolutely true. They make you change it every 3-6 months to prevent other companies from poaching you. I guess they'd rather have you doing car detailing for the bosses between projects, rather than let you be offered a better opportunity elsewhere.
 
3

3dmodeler

Member
Laughing Banana said:
But is making a new engine really a necessity though? Maybe Konami also viewed it as just one of Kojima's "fuck you I am an artist" projects?
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I really don't think they'd be able to make The phantom pain using the old engine. In some of the old Kojipro podcasts they always talked about all these technical problems with developing MGS4 for PS3.
 
B

blueteainfusion

Member
God, those working conditions. Absolutely despicable.

It makes me wonder, though. Do you think Konami would actually dare trying to demote Kojima himself to a security position?!
 
A

Aztechnology

Member
ISee said:
WTF?!

COD:MW2 was in total more expensive then GTA V because of marketing costs? I thought GTA V had an incredbile huge marketing campaing, but this... this just blew my mind.


Compared to this 80kk for MGS seems quiet reasonable (w/o marketing).
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That blows my mind, a 4:1 cost marketing:Development.

Nanashrew said:
I just did WTF.

http://japandailypress.com/japanese...nt-rooms-to-push-employees-to-resign-3029793/

This is awful.
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Mother of... So yea Konami is basically doing the same thing, despicable.
 
M

Matt

Member
For anyone trying to downplay this: it's a lot of money for a game, period, but for a MGS game, it's a ludicrous amount of money.

Everything else about Konami aside (and yeah, it's a rough environment), the men in charge are absolutely right to be unhappy with that number.
 
I

itchyass86

Member
Well jeez, why even call themselves Konami anymore? Who could support a company like that after reading this - assuming that even half of it is true.

It's awful how much injustice the common person can endure. I don't think the good folks - who worked on projects that brought joy to millions of fans - should be treated that way. It's barbaric to give someone zero option to make a livelihood based on something that he or she would enjoy doing. That kind of culture seem pretty fascist to me.

I hope that all of the decent people that are still working for that company would be able to find better opportunities elsewhere. They oughta be doing what they love to do - whether it's making games or writing music or whatever it is. And get paid doing it.
 
C

Coffee Dog

Banned
Matt said:
For anyone trying to downplay this: it's a lot of money for a game, period, but for a MGS game, it's a ludicrous amount of money.

Everything else about Konami aside (and yeah, it's a rough environment), the men in charge are absolutely right to be unhappy with that number.
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Maybe management shouldn't have approved the development of a new engine.

It seems like a switch flipped at some point and instead of recouping the costs through the development of more fox engine games (which seemed like the obvious plan) they just said fuck it and wrote it off and made the mobile switch.
 
T

the_batman

Banned
Matt said:
For anyone trying to downplay this: it's a lot of money for a game, period, but for a MGS game, it's a ludicrous amount of money.

Everything else about Konami aside (and yeah, it's a rough environment), the men in charge are absolutely right to be unhappy with that number.
Click to expand...

lol this guy is on a mission to put down Kojima and Metal Gear.
 
A

Amalthea

Banned
Somehow I get the impression thaz this Kozuki clan isn't actually the brightest bunch. They seem to blindly follow trends while completely underestimating the value of their own products. For example how they followed up with a merger with Hudson only because nearly every other Japanese game company did it in the last decade but then suddenly realize that the mobile train is already departing so they toss everything away just to catch that one instead.
And then missing out on other trends because they were too blind like Dancing and Instrument games wich they basically invented or that they can't release a freemium mobile Frogger game while Crossy Roads and it's clones clutter the mobile DL shops.
 
B

Branduil

Member
Sounds like a terrible place to work. Wonder what the idiots in charge will do when their mobile division eventually flops.
 
K

Karatechop250

Neo Member
KoopaTheCasual said:
Keep in mind it passed 80 million in April, and that figure probably doesn't include marketing, which is a massive money sink.

So it's very likely on the more expensive side for a AAA product.
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I'd say in the end your looking closer to 130 to 140 million total. That's how development works. I wouldn't be surprised if the average cost of making a AAA game swells above 60 million just for production costs.
 
H

hydrophilic attack

Member
They are missing the point in just looking at the costs for MGSV in isolation. Sure, the game is really expensive, but it should have been viewed as an investment in future titles as well. Development of the game also lead to development of the fox engine, which can be used for a lot of future Konami titles. Likewise, the significant gameplay innovations in MGSV could lay the groundwork for future titles in the series as well. By alienating Kojima, Konami will now have to eat the costs of developing the game, while at the same time losing the best person able to capitalize on those costs in the future. Incredibly shortsighted.
 
B

Big_Boss_Snake_

Member
Matt said:
...

Or, now stick with me here, I have an opinion based on actual information and critical thinking, not emotions and nostalgia?
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Mgsv is an ambitious project big massive open world game if you think a game of that scale wont cost much to make then im sorry for you !
 
N

NEO0MJ

Member
Aztechnology said:
That blows my mind, a 4:1 cost marketing:Development.



Mother of... So yea Konami is basically doing the same thing, despicable.
Click to expand...

A lot of companies, especially in the west, spend an insane amount on marketing. I remember Man of Steel having a marketing budget that was more than half the cost of making the film itself, and the movie cost more than 200 million.
 
O

oimori

Member
http://kotaku.com/report-konami-is-treating-its-staff-like-prisoners-1721700073

According to a report on Nikkei, the corporate culture at Konami—home of Metal Gear, Silent Hill and Pro Evolution Soccer—hasn’t only soured over the past few years, but has become almost terrifyingly Orwellian.

Nikkei’s report alleges that the culture at the corporation’s video game division, famous for its console games, worsened in around 2010 when a mobile title called Dragon Collection became a smash hit. As a social game for phones, development costs were low and profit returns were huge. Not long after, the report says, Konami’s corporate bosses shifted the company’s focus away from traditional, hardcore games and towards cheaper, and potentially more lucrative social titles.

(Somewhat related, the same Nikkei report says that Metal Gear Solid 5’s development costs have surpassed 10 billion yen/US$80 million).

In a country where mobile gaming has exploded in popularity, the fact Konami has pivoted to this type of offering isn’t in itself surprising. What is, however, are some of the office conditions Nikkei reports have arisen as a result of the shift, especially with regards to how Konami treats employees.
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