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[the_batman]

...

Or, now stick with me here, I have an opinion based on actual information and critical thinking, not emotions and nostalgia?

except you're posting it in every kojima/konami thread.

 

[Celine]

$80 million before the marketing budget?

 

[Matt]

except you're posting it in every kojima/konami thread.

I think I have posted in...2 threads about this subject.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

80 million- they would need to sell something like 3 million copies at full price just to break even.

Jesus, what the fuck were they thinking?!?

That will happen easily.

 

[Dremark]

For anyone trying to downplay this: it's a lot of money for a game, period, but for a MGS game, it's a ludicrous amount of money.

Everything else about Konami aside (and yeah, it's a rough environment), the men in charge are absolutely right to be unhappy with that number.

They can be unhappy with the number if they want to, that doesn't mean the way the company had responded isn't terrible business.

They threw him out of the company pubically, tried to erase his legacy and created a massive controversy before the game even came out. For a game with such a huge budget it would have made a lot more sense to release the game, let it sell and afterwards dismiss Kojima as quietly as they could.

Also even with the PR Nightmare they've cause the game will likely still sell enough to be profitable, they're already partway there with the demo they sold.

 

[Matt]

They can be unhappy with the number if they want to, that doesn't mean the way the company had responded isn't terrible business.

They threw him out of the company pubically, tried to erase his legacy and created a massive controversy before the game even came out. For a game with such a huge budget it would have made a lot more sense to release the game, let it sell and afterwards dismiss Kojima as quietly as they could.

Also even with the PR Nightmare they've cause the game will likely still sell enough to be profitable, they're already partway there with the demo they sold.

I don't really disagree with any of this.

 

[GravityInsanity]

 

[Aztechnology]

That will happen easily.

Definitely, especially since there's not a ton of games out for the next gen consoles currently. Just like people who normally would of never touched Bloodborne or the Witcher 3 bought copies.

 

[WolvenOne]

80 million seems unlikely, unless they're counting development of the Fox Engine. I wouldn't, have counted that, since the engine could have been used for many projects. The fact that it probably won't be, in on Konami and thier decision to exit development.

 

[Karatechop250]

That will happen easily.

No it's going to be even more than that because a publisher only sees about half of what the game actually sales for. Your probably looking closer to 6 million just to break even.

 

[Klossen]

That was for 10 years of Destiny, not just for a single game.

And we don't really know how much that 80 million number for MGSV includes. Just development? Development + marketing? Development + marketing + engine + Ground Zeroes?

It's expensive making open-world multiplat games, but Japanese games tend to be more modest in budget compared to similar western titles. I remember MGS4 numbers being way inflated so I'm sceptical when there's just a figure drop with no context to it.

 

[SpaceDrake]

This is just unreal. I know shuushin koyou and loyalty to an employer is a sort of ideal, but it's hard to fathom why a lot of those classic game guys wouldn't just leave after getting shafted like that. It's not what they signed up to do or want to do. And it's just tragic to think of that sort of talent going to waste. I hope they can find an out like Igarashi and Kojima did (or, hell, if Bloodstained does really well beyond the Kickstarter, IGA staging a "jailbreak" and recruiting a bunch of his old Konami buddies would own).

Also feels like another reason to encourage independent Japanese development - whether you want to call it "indie" or "doujin" or whatever, these dudes need options.

It makes me wonder, though. Do you think Konami would actually dare trying to demote Kojima himself to a security position?!

It wouldn't work. Kojima, at least, has enough of a sense of the industry that if they tried to "demote" him, he'd just turn on his heel, exit the building, and call up half a dozen publishers letting them know he's now available.

... Which, honestly, looking at it, seems like it might have happened, in some form. Konami management got very testy about MGS5, went a bridge too far, and Kojima just picked up the dog, put shoes on the pony, and took his show with him rather than put up with a bad situation longer than absolutely necessary.

I have worked with Konami as a 3rd party dev. The email thing is absolutely true. They make you change it every 3-6 months to prevent other companies from poaching you. I guess they'd rather have you doing car detailing for the bosses between projects, rather than let you be offered a better opportunity elsewhere.

I would imagine/hope that this isn't quite standard practice at most dev houses in Japan, but if the general attitude (of preventing poaching) is more common, I feel like I have a greater understanding of a facet of why I didn't see a lot of Japanese developers at GDC when I started attending four years ago...

 

[oimori]

http://kotaku.com/report-konami-is-treating-its-staff-like-prisoners-1721700073

Here’s a breakdown of the Nikkei piece’s allegations. Some of it we’ve heard before. Some of it is new:

Kojima Productions, the studio behind the upcoming Metal Gear Solid V (and long famous as a brand of its own), is now simply known as “Number 8 Production Department.” The computers in this section, Nikkei says (and as we reported earlier this year), are allegedly not connected to the internet and are only able to send internal messages.

Nikkei reports that employees leaving the company offices during their lunch break are having their absences monitored with time cards. Those who stay out too long are having their names announced throughout the company.
That there are cameras in the office corridors that aren’t there for security, but rather to monitor the movements of Konami’s own employees.

That most Konami employees do not have their own permanent company email addresses. Staff who must deal with people outside the company, such as sales and PR do; however, everyone else routinely has their address randomised and changed every few months. (Note: Konami employee emails are typically a few letters followed by a string of numbers, but this random email changing has been going on at Konami for years. A while back, one Konami employee told me this was done to prevent headhunting. Over the years, I have seen developers with company email addresses, but this might have changed recently.)

That Konami game developers who aren’t seen as useful are reassigned to jobs as security guards, cleaning staff at the company’s fitness clubs or roles at a pachi-slot machine factory. This includes not just junior staff, but producers who have worked on well-known game titles. In 2013, Asahi News, one of Japan’s largest newspapers, ran an interview with a former Konami staffer who allegedly went from game development to working in Konami’s pachi-slot factory, causing him to experience severe depression.

That one former employee, upon announcing on Facebook that they were leaving Konami and had got a new job elsewhere, had their post monitored. Nikkei says remaining Konami staff who “liked” the post were all reshuffled within the company.

Kotaku is following up with Konami for comment.

ENEMY OF THE WHOLE GAME INDUSTRY

 

[paradise_circus]

Well the game is more or less done. The big question for me is if Konami will still do these kind of projects or will they completely ditch them?
They are more experienced though.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

$80 million? I know Kojima wants to be Michael Bay and all but damn.

 

[Seyavesh]

Pretty much. It's like the bizarro world equivalent of Nintendo telling people like Koji Kondo and Tezuka "Sorry, you guys are no longer needed in your current areas of music composition and game production. Please put on Barney Fife outfits and go make sure the buildings are secure."

Edit: As crazy as that scenario sounds, my source confirmed it's true and happening at Konami. In fact he re-iterated this to me just a few months ago. Me: 'They're "in security" now as in not, "IT type security stuff" but security as in sitting behind a desk and clear people to enter the building, check doors, ect?' Him: 'That's right, all of their old school game devs are in the security division.'

i feel like this point should be hammered in more because jesus christ

people keep focusing on the budget when this is pretty much the most tragic thing about the whole deal

 

[StrongBlackVine]

No it's going to be even more than that because a publisher only sees about half of what the game actually sales for. Your probably looking closer to 6 million just to break even.

Subtract however much they made from Ground Zeroes from that $80 million.

 

[Nightengale]

Matt's a dev. He knows his shit.

Curious why it's ludicrous for a MGS game though.

 

[Dremark]

...

Or, now stick with me here, I have an opinion based on actual information and critical thinking, not emotions and nostalgia?

Eh you literally said it's ludicrous amount of money for a MGS game. Might not have been your intention but when it's stated that way it can be taken as you putting the series down.

Honestly the previous mainline MGS game sold 4 million copies on a single platform which was struggling at the time. I don't think the budget on this game is going to keep it from being profitable and the Fox Engine itself would have been a reusable asset if Konami wasn't abandoning the market.

 

[SpaceDrake]

Somehow I get the impression thaz this Kozuki clan isn't actually the brightest bunch. They seem to blindly follow trends while completely underestimating the value of their own products. For example how they followed up with a merger with Hudson only because nearly every other Japanese game company did it in the last decade but then suddenly realize that the mobile train is already departing so they toss everything away just to catch that one instead.
And then missing out on other trends because they were too blind like Dancing and Instrument games wich they basically invented or that they can't release a freemium mobile Frogger game while Crossy Roads and it's clones clutter the mobile DL shops.

Oh, even before this it's been clear for some time that the modern Kozukis have no idea what they're really doing and have just been lucking into some success. The older ones knew how to build a business in the 80s, but this decade especially they've just been chasing easy success in the mobile and gambling markets when it comes to Konami's digital entertainment business. They haven't actually grown the business or fostered new talent for ages now and it was clear they had no interest in doing so.

They're mostly just chasing money and trying to emulate the success of others, but aside from "gambling machines make money!" and "mobile is where game money is now!" they obviously no longer have any real sense of why these things sell or produce money. Dragon Collection seems to have been largely a well-timed fluke - they don't seem to know how to actually foster successful games, even on mobile, beyond that.

 

[Matt]

Eh you literally said it's ludicrous amount of money for a MGS game. Might not have been your intention but when it's stated that way it can be taken as you putting the series down.

Not commenting on the quality of the series, just the sales potential.

 

[Lernaean]

Yay, let's not talk about how Konami treats their employees as slaves, let's trash Kojima again.

 

[Klossen]

Eh you literally said it's ludicrous amount of money for a MGS game. Might not have been your intention but when it's stated that way it can be taken as you putting the series down.

Honestly the previous mainline MGS game sold 4 million copies on a single platform which was struggling at the time. I don't think the budget on this game is going to keep it from being profitable and the Fox Engine itself would have been a reusable asset if Konami wasn't abandoning the market.

MGS4 sold 6 million copies, according to Ryan Payton. Source

 

[Spaghetti]

not surprised about the budget. it's a AAA, large-scope console title on five platforms that has been cooking for over four to five years.

will they make it back? yes. without a doubt. you've got to spend big money to make big money, but it won't be 'enough' when they compare it with a smaller came that made several times its budget. the execs will likely be looking at how many more times money they get off the investment rather than the actual monetary figure.

that kind of thinking is dumb in the long term though. not every mobile game is a huge success, and at some point the overall revenue of the games division will be down because the big hitter games like metal gear are gone. the business risk might be reduced but eventually konami is going to find themselves sitting on a pile of devalued IP and next to zero creative minds willing to lead the games division to the next big thing.

it's the end-game of when corporate attitudes win over creativity.

 

[oimori]

Yay, let's not talk about how Konami treats their employees as slaves, let's trash Kojima again.

Konami: Yeah, because Kojima is shit, he made only expensive shitty games, I hate Kojima, Konami is God, Fox Engine is shit, I'll use it for only mobile games.

 

[xzeldax3]

Damn this sounds really stressful. It seems like everything was building up to a implosion. People are dropping left and right and Konami will just sit on so many good IPs.

 

[mrjohill]

Aw man there was a suikoden game in development? ;_;

 

[Palette Swap]

Matt's a dev. He knows his shit.

Curious why it's ludicrous for a MGS game though.

It's over twice the budget of MGS4.

 

[Turin Turambar]

80 million for MGSV? Jesus Christ

5 platforms.
New engine.
AAA game that leaves people impressed with how big it is, how polished and how full of details is.

...
What people thought, they were doing a game of this quality thanks to developers being magical fairies?
No, it was clear this was a expensive as hell project.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Not commenting on the quality of the series, just the sales potential.

I'm curious, how many copies do you think they would need to sell to be profitable with such a budget? And what do you estimate the sales potential to be?

 

[Lernaean]

It's over twice the budget of MGS4.

It's over twice the size of MGS4.

 

[Walpurgis]

http://kotaku.com/report-konami-is-treating-its-staff-like-prisoners-1721700073



ENEMY OF THE WHOLE GAME INDUSTRY

This is absolutely insane. Like the person who thought this up is mentally ill.

 

[Warewolf]

Am I high or does $80m for an open world stealth game with multiplayer on a newly developed, bespoke engine, featuring Keifer Sutherland and licensed music sound completely reasonable?

That actually sounds like an alright deal when you look at something like Destiny.

Those work conditions are inexcusable though.

 

[Walpurgis]

It's over twice the budget of MGS4.

It's over twice the size of MGS4.

.

 

[Nanashrew]

Oh, even before this it's been clear for some time that the modern Kozukis have no idea what they're really doing and have just been lucking into some success. The older ones knew how to build a business in the 80s, but this decade especially they've just been chasing easy success in the mobile and gambling markets when it comes to Konami's digital entertainment business. They haven't actually grown the business or fostered new talent for ages now and it was clear they had no interest in doing so.

They're mostly just chasing money and trying to emulate the success of others, but aside from "gambling machines make money!" and "mobile is where game money is now!" they obviously no longer have any real sense of why these things sell or produce money. Dragon Collection seems to have been largely a well-timed fluke - they don't seem to know how to actually foster successful games, even on mobile, beyond that.

It feels like their luck is starting to dry up. Then again as all that you mentioned, it was inevitable because they did nothing and learned nothing and they don't deserve their current positions. They seem like cowards chasing the dollar pushing anyone aside to get to the top.

 

[Gator86]

Mgsv is an ambitious project big massive open world game if you think a game of that scale wont cost much to make then im sorry for you !

A junior with a Big Boss avatar defending MGS5's bloated budget by telling an actual developer he doesn't know what he's talking about is kind of amazing.

 

[KingBroly]

When did TPP's development begin? 2010? 2009? It got revealed in 2012 and we know Kojima talked to Keighley about it 2 years earlier at San Diego Comic Con, I think that's what Keighley said.

$80 million for 5-6 years of development for that process doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

 

[Dremark]

Not commenting on the quality of the series, just the sales potential.

Fair enough, wasn't saying you were just pointing out how it could have been taken that way.

MGS4 sold 6 million copies, according to Ryan Payton. Source

I pulled up numbers from 2008 when I made that post. I figured there wouldn't be anything available later than that and if there was it would be a negliable difference. I gotta say that's some impressive legs on that game though.

 

[SpaceDrake]

Damn this sounds really stressful. It seems like everything was building up to a implosion. People are dropping left and right and Konami will just sit on so many good IPs.

Just to be clear, Konami as a corporate entity isn't going anywhere. As much as the younger Kozukis are mostly chasing after golden geese, Konami is a pretty diversified company, with interests in health & fitness clubs (when the article mentions devs being shuffled to janitorial positions in "fitness clubs", these almost certainly aren't like internal rec rooms, but the fitness clubs Konami operates for the public), medical equipment, an admittedly-robust gambling-gaming section, real estate, and mobile development (which doesn't seem like it's produced any real hits of note outside of Dragon Collection, but). Even if Konami exits the packaged-console game business entirely - as a lot of us were beginning to speculate even before this information about employee abuse and misallocation and the specter of large-scale employee exit came to light - Konami as a business entity would all but certainly survive for some time to come.

People really should probably brace for Konami to exit the console market entirely or almost entirely, and that sure will feel like an "implosion" for many. But Konami the corporate entity isn't going anywhere.

 

[Lernaean]

A junior with a Big Boss avatar defending MGS5's bloated budget by telling an actual developer he doesn't know what he's talking about is kind of amazing.

Can i have an autograph?

 

[Palette Swap]

It's over twice the size of MGS4.

That wasn't really the point. I'm not saying anything about the game itself, I was just responding to "Curious why it's ludicrous for a MGS game though."

Doubling your costs from one iteration to the next isn't exactly trivial and I can see how from an expense-oriented, financial point of view, that would seem terrible. That the game is twice bigger would have little bearing on that appreciation or any RoI forecasts. Meanwhile, you've dedicated twice as much resources that you won't be using for other projects.

This is all entirely separate from my excitement for the game (I'm dying to play it) and how Konami has been managing the backlash (they look beyond fucking terrible).

 

[Big_Boss_Snake_]

A junior with a Big Boss avatar defending MGS5's bloated budget by telling an actual developer he doesn't know what he's talking about is kind of amazing.

Junior or not what i said its true and facts you cant deny that

 

[g23]

Wow this makes ubisoft and ea look like angels

 

[Joni]

So at this speed, Konami as a game publisher is imploding. They have Seabass left and that is it?

 

[Garrett Hawke]

80 million doesn't seem that high tbh... Considering many games will spend that just on marketing. I don't know how much the old ones cost tho so maybe it's a lot for MGS.

 

[Ratrat]

When did TPP's development begin? 2010? 2009? It got revealed in 2012 and we know Kojima talked to Keighley about it 2 years earlier at San Diego Comic Con, I think that's what Keighley said.

$80 million for 5-6 years of development for that process doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

Er. Peace Walker fka MGS5 was released in 2010.

Konami released an overpriced demo and added micro transactions to the online.
Is this really about Kojima losing money or them just wanting ridiculous f2p mobile type margins?

 

[Lernaean]

That wasn't really the point. I'm not saying anything about the game itself, I was just responding to "Curious why it's ludicrous for a MGS game though."

Doubling your costs from one iteration to the next isn't exactly trivial and I can see how from an expense-oriented, financial point of view, that would seem terrible. That the game is twice bigger would have little bearing on that appreciation or any RoI forecasts. Meanwhile, you've dedicated twice as much resources that you won't be using for other projects.

This is all entirely separate from my excitement for the game (I'm dying to play it) and how Konami has been managing the backlash (they look beyond fucking terrible).

And it's still not unexpected for a game of its caliber, but keep ignoring the real matter of the article.

 

[Dremark]

Also just as a quick aside all the old jokes about how they were making Koji Igarashi work as a janitor after they dismissed him from the Castlevania series and made him clean Hideo Kojima's toliet are looking far more true to life than I ever would have expected.

 

[shinra-bansho]

¥10B in development cost for a Metal Gear game seems like a lot, even in the context of the idea that modern game budgets are large. This is not Call of Duty. It is not Grand Theft Auto.

¥10B in capital into one title is a lot for Konami, especially when next best projects likely have higher potential returns.

Also, as already noted, "brand new engine" is inconsequential, particularly given the likelihood that it will never be used again.

 

[oimori]

I'm very confused since this thread is filled with about MGSV budget. Of course 80M is too expensive. Yes, it is impressive, then please make its own thread.

This article is not about just Kojima-Konami issue. Konami did a lot of incomprehensible things. Let's talk about that.