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[KingBroly]

Er. Peace Walker fka MGS5 was released in 2010.

Konami released an overpriced demo and added micro transactions to the online.
Is this really about Kojima losing money or them just wanting ridiculous f2p mobile type margins?

They're not going to mobile, though, so it's not about wanting those type of margins, otherwise we'd see an effort from them to enter that space. They're entering the gambling space, which is something I don't have much knowledge of.

Point was just about how long the game's been in development and how the price wouldn't be obscene given that length.

 

[gossi]

Xbox One DRM reversal disproves your point tbh.

Have you tried using Xbox One when Xbox Live goes offline or develops problems? I'm not convinced they reversed that one out the driveway totally - they just gave the impression they did.

 

[akachan ningen]

This game is going to sell like 10 million copies.

 

[Castef]

Have you tried using Xbox One when Xbox Live goes offline or develops problems? I'm not convinced they reversed that one out the driveway totally - they just gave the impression they did.

Try to better explain this, please.

How come you can't use Xbox One without it being online?

 

[fedexpeon]

Is it that hard to find a different job in JP?
My goodness, tracking people time, security camera, and assigning people to do lower skill job instead of programming?
Man, Konami must has a lot of excess programmers in their company.

 

[Srey Plaughtered]

@JeffGrubb @markmacd The article says that Kojima fell from grace because MGS 5 got delayed. It also talks about certain work conditions at
Dr. Serkan Toto @serkantoto

]@markmacd Actually, there is more. The article says employees get controlled with cameras+punch clocks etc
Dr. Serkan Toto @serkantoto

@CSX142857 @JeffGrubb @markmacd The article lists 2 other options for Konami, one being letting people work as security in their HQ. No joke
Here are some more tidbits

Thomas James @iiotenki

It doesn't stop with emails. Lunchtime leave is regulated with time cards. Those who exceed allotted time are outed within company.
Thomas James @iiotenki

Jesus, Konami's internal culture sounds poisonous. For one, email with outsiders is done with a randomized email address changed regularly.
Thomas James @iiotenki

Good lord. It's like the Patriots actually came to life. Life imitating art in the most depressing way anyone could think of.

One employee feels turning point was when Konami launched Dragon Collection for mobile. Lots of money made with sub-$1 mil budget.
Thomas James @iiotenki

This is even more depressing.

Employees deemed useless have been known to do assemblyline work, security guard detail, cleanup at fitness clubs.

Wait what? Is this even legal? I don't know why anyone would work at Konami anymore. Jesus.

 

[Industrialist]

Have you tried using Xbox One when Xbox Live goes offline or develops problems? I'm not convinced they reversed that one out the driveway totally - they just gave the impression they did.

Well last night I couldn't sign into live and played Far Cry 4 without a problem for a couple hours from disc. So, yeah. Digitally though, I get your meaning.

The sad thing is that they DID change the way it works and now we're left with these problems. If my licences had been checked in the hours before when XBL was up, I'd have been able to play my digital games while XBL was down. Now there's no internet "check in" I have to validate as and when I want to play a game.

As for Konami - their email security measures sound legit, to me. All comes from the fact that a lot of people are so rabidly frantic about getting a single screenshot of a game early (a game that isn't out for 3 years) that they're trying to prevent leaks. I say fair enough to that.

Rest of it is no more limiting than a lot of companies in the world. I used to have to punch a clock at my old company to go and take a leak so that they could work out if I was taking too long on toilet breaks in a day. Lunch breaks were monitored in SECONDS at two companies I worked for with any "late" time being shown on a leaderboard so that everyone could see it. If you haven't seen any of this, then you probably have never worked in customer service or tech.

 

[Graphics Horse]

They're not going to mobile, though, so it's not about wanting those type of margins, otherwise we'd see an effort from them to enter that space. They're entering the gambling space, which is something I don't have much knowledge of.

They're already in both of those spaces. US mobile and Japanese proper gambling are future expansion possibilities though. Read the quote about Dragon Collection in first post.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Just goes to show what an absolute lack of labour laws exist in Japan I guess that this sort of regime could function as a legal work environment. It taking a year for crazy stuff like the Facebook Incident to reach us is like some North Korea shit really.

Will be trying my best to rent MGSV and not buy at launch. Enjoy that soon to be unmanned Fox Engine Konami.

 

[ranmafan]

Is it that hard to find a different job in JP?
My goodness, tracking people time, security camera, and assigning people to do lower skill job instead of programming?
Man, Konami must has a lot of excess programmers in their company.

Cant say for the gaming industry but for many people and many areas of the Japanese work force, it can be very hard. Still this type of action, hearing that Konami is sending some of its people to do cleaning work in their fitness centers, thats just insane. But sadly not completely unheard of in Japan. such actions have happened in other areas. Such as in some of the past big english teaching schools before they went out of business and such. I hate hearing stories like this, hopefully those workers can find better employment in the future rather than spending their time doing things like that.

 

[7DollarHagane]

If that 80 millions includes the fox engine development then konami should include the savings/profit from the pes next gen series. And should probably have other active development using the engine to recoup costs.

You don't spend 20 million developing an engine and then fire/alienate all the developers best familiar with it and then whine about costs. It's not like the fox engine was a secret development funneling money away in secret..

 

[sonikokaruto]

Hudson.


I don't think I need to say anything more.

 

[mclem]

If you ask me, I'll say that the outlook is that Konami is writing the Fox Engine off as a loss.

I'm wondering if Panta Rhei might be building up to a similar fate; it's been a very long time since we've heard about anything that uses it. Then again, I'd expect Capcom to still push the likes of Resident Evil, and that might well suit it.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

Sickening.

 

[lord_lad]

"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with
the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hara-kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"

 

[Pikma]

80+ million?

 

[vagabondarts]

Working at Konami sounds like hell. The leadership should be ashamed and humiliated.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

https://twitter.com/iiotenki/status/628065111891050497



That's not an insane amount for a AAA console game in 2015. Though the only Japanese games reaching that are probably from Square Enix.

That is a insane amount for MGS and that does not include marketing i would think.
Also working at Konami sound awful.

 

[Forkball]

Absolute lunacy. They seem to have zero respect for their workers. And their "punishments" are idiotic considering the point of a company is to MAKE MONEY. Why have some programmer on guard duty when he could be working to MAKE YOU MONEY.

 

[GeordieMark]

Funnily enough, I once had a boss at a very well know publisher who wanted to install cameras around the office so she could keep an eye on people. She has to be the most unpleasant person I have ever met.

 

[Synless]

80 million for MGSV? Jesus Christ

What's an average budget for a huge AAA game? Doesn't seem too crazy to me given the games production values.

 

[NinjaMouse]

Absolute lunacy. They seem to have zero respect for their workers. And their "punishments" are idiotic considering the point of a company is to MAKE MONEY. Why have some programmer on guard duty when he could be working to MAKE YOU MONEY.

Because the programmer and the guard probably make the same money. Also, since it's very hard to get fired in Japan, they "punish" you until you leave on your own.

 

[Dremark]

Xbox One DRM reversal disproves your point tbh.

That wasn't the result of a boycott, that was in response to consumer backlash.

Microsoft was smart enough not to let it hit the market the way they planned it.

 

[Srey Plaughtered]

What's an average budget for a huge AAA game? Doesn't seem too crazy to me given the games production values.

And it

Spoiler

probably

also includes the cost of making an entirely new engine to stand up with modern times and needs.

 

[vaibhavp]

so we have a bioshock infinite situation at hand?

wish these games didnt cost as much.

 

[ZoddGutts]

Because the programmer and the guard probably make the same money. Also, since it's very hard to get fired in Japan, they "punish" you until you leave on your own.

Yeah, forgot the term for that it's called, it was even mentioned in Silicon Valley HBO series.

 

[Lernaean]

What's an average budget for a huge AAA game? Doesn't seem too crazy to me given the games production values.

As an example, Tomb Raider had a budget of 100 million.

 

[Regulus Tera]

So everything that the Super Bunnyhop video said was actually true?!

 

[sörine]

I'm guessing this $80m also includes development of the FOX Engine? Unless that's been amortized between MGS and PES?

Ground Zeroes was also probably a good budget recovery effort in retrospect.

 

[AIP]

You probably won't be able to answer this and it's a bit of OT but do they adjust the salaries for the employees that are being "reassigned" or do they keep their salary?

 

[vagabondarts]

I did graphic design work for a few years at a company where the guy running things treated employees like this. Not quite to this degree with cameras, but its the worst I've ever seen it here anyway.

Hated that job and that company with the fire of 1000 suns.

I can only imagine how a Konami employee feels.

 

[Lernaean]

You probably won't be able to answer this and it's a bit of OT but do they adjust the salaries for the employees that are being "reassigned" or do they keep their salary?

Oh, they get paid?

Spoiler

:smugface:

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Consumers trying to prove a point with their wallet never works. That's a fallacy in itself. There are too many moving pieces and business is always projected so far in advance that there is never any actual impact. If you boycott something because you think that you will change anything, you're usually wasting your time. If you boycott something because you don't want a company to have your money because you oppose something they do, that is always worthwhile. Don't expect anything to change, but value where you put your money.

XBO pre-orders being crap compared to PS4's after DRM-gate probably helped a lot in changing those DRM policies. So in some cases it might actually work.

 

[Synless]

As an example, Tomb Raider had a budget of 100 million.

So this is roughly in the same ballpark as other AAA games (one example, but I know of others in that range) so I don't Konami's issue here.

 

[vagabondarts]

You probably won't be able to answer this and it's a bit of OT but do they adjust the salaries for the employees that are being "reassigned" or do they keep their salary?

They probably work through some loophole to deny them a living wage.
These are things that happen when employees are seen as disposable money burning things instead of people.

 

[7DollarHagane]

80+ million?

I'd like to know what other aàa game the size and scope of mgs5 was made for less. Bonus points if you can find one that also includes development of a new engine and ported to 5 platforms.

 

[Nibel]

So this is roughly in the same ballpark as other AAA games (one example, but I know of others in that range) so I don't Konami's issue here.

I think budgets are still very different in both Japan and in the west; there are not many Japanese studios putting that much amount into one game + an engine that is suited for traditional consoles.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'd like to know what other aàa game the size and scope of mgs5 was made for less. Bonus points if you can find one that also includes development of a new engine and ported to 5 platforms.

Exactly :/

 

[Lernaean]

I'd like to know what other aàa game the size and scope of mgs5 was made for less. Bonus points if you can find one that also includes development of a new engine and ported to 5 platforms.

+MGO.

 

[Last Hearth]

So this is roughly in the same ballpark as other AAA games (one example, but I know of others in that range) so I don't Konami's issue here.

The issue is that it's a bad business model. $100+ million, 5 years before you can start recouping, and needing to sell 3-4 million copies just to break even, one bomb and your company is basically screwed. I can't blame them for wanting to get out of that business.

 

[Theodran]

100 million dollar budget may not sound very much to people who are used to hearing about the budgets of Western video games, but this is more than twice the amount of Japanese game developers spend on their biggest projects.

Edit: The biggest cost is probably cinematics and animation. The volume and work required for modern games is insanely high and unfortunately not on the way down anytime soon.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

So this is roughly in the same ballpark as other AAA games (one example, but I know of others in that range) so I don't Konami's issue here.

We don't know if it includes marketing or not .
It's 80 million since April and if that does not include marketing you could be looking at 120 - 150 million plus easy .
Then you also have to take how much the IP normally sell into account .

 

[Aztechnology]

"Me want Kiefer Sutherland".

"But... the budget is already..."

"ME WANT KIEFER SUTHERLAND!"

"oook..."

I know I'm a Hayter.

 

[War Peaceman]

There are legitimate reasons that company management can have issues with the costs. Although not as ridiculous as the number suggests, this is a significant risk and I can appreciate the strategic inclination to move towards a lower risk approach. I can believe that Kojima is a difficult employee in terms of balancing budget and vision (part of what makes him so good).

However, the company has handled it in the worst possible way. They've harmed company morale with these bizarre and disturbing practices. They've harmed their ability as a future employer by showing themselves to be an unsavoury place of work. They've alienated and mismanaged talent. Even if they are intent on leaving the games industry there is a way to handle things appropriately.

Part of the reason you are willing to invest extra money in a game is to improve quality. Money /= quality but Kojima has a superb track record on this. Higher quality games that react well with consumers lead to brand loyalty, which increases sales across the franchise. Classic games can be re-released for easy money. The brand can be used for merchandising/spin-offs etc. This is in addition to the engine/asset development that can then be reused for further iterations and for other series. The future of the Metal Gear brand has been severely damaged and potential avenues of profit have disappeared.

Idiocy all round.

 

[tuxfool]

As an example, Tomb Raider had a budget of 100 million.

So this is roughly in the same ballpark as other AAA games (one example, but I know of others in that range) so I don't Konami's issue here.

The quoted figure doesn't discriminate if 100m is just Dev budget. It seems more likely to be both development and marketing split down the middle. This is using Uncharted as a rough metric, where the budget of those games supposedly doesn't exceed 50m.

 

[BadWolf]

Glad that he and other members of his team are leaving, best of luck to them.

The quoted figure doesn't discriminate if 100m is just Dev budget. It seems more likely to be both development and marketing split down the middle. This is using Uncharted as a rough metric, where the budget of those games supposedly doesn't exceed 50m.

The Uncharted games have been very, very linear and limited though.

You can't really compare them to a game of MGSV's scale.

 

[tuxfool]

The Uncharted games have been very, very linear and limited though.

You can't really compare them to a game of MGSV's scale.

We are talking about TR2013

 

[Doc Holliday]

I heard some crazy shit about Konami Hawaii back in the day as well. Mostly rampant racism, nepotism and unfair treatment of employees. Thought it was bs....maybe not.

 

[shinra-bansho]

What exactly are people using as basis that this is in line with most productions? I mean the concept of games being expensive to produce isn't without merit.

But very few game budgets are publicly disclosed; some don't delineate what is development and what is promotion even when disclosed; those that are disclosed may not necessarily be analogous from a commercial standpoint to this title.

Also, as something of an aside, Tomb Raider (2013) is not really the best example to follow in terms of production and budgeting.

 

[wanderjahr]

This isn't all that uncommon in Japanese corporate culture from what I've read.