Stillmatic
Member
Dynamic weather is weather that can change at anytime during a race to any condition the game offers. Plenty of games do this.
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Next-gen Racing Graphics Face-off | (Next-gen means current-gen)
- Thread starter Gestault
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Again you haven't proven how F7 isn't dynamic lol
Seriously do you have the game? The rain and thunder storms, fog, sunny conditions all happen differently even in free race mode
ethomaz
Banned
This is what the Dymanic Weather System is summarized in GT5...
Dynamic Wather System simulate the changes in temperature, humidity and pressure, which will realistically influence the environment and driving
That is how every sim racing game talks about dymanic wheater.
TOP GEAR on SNES had changed from sun to night in races and it was never called dynamic.
Yea and F7 does that bud
Heck Forza has been simulating temperature and such before F7 without the dynamic weather happening
ethomaz
Banned
It is not... the weather conditions changes are already set when you start the race... there is no real time using temperature, humidity and pressure simulation to define changes or not.
Lmao is this guy serious?
Again nothing is set. The rain and weather have probabilities to happen. During the race the game runs the weather on the chances of happening for the race. You can clearly set percentage values for rain to happen and EVERY time you race it rains differently
And yes it does all that was said in that "definition" is calculated in Forza. Go do some more reading you need it
Monad
Member
That's a matter of preference.
Forza and Gran Turismo sagas have been virtual car museums for excellence across many years, and I must admit that I drove all the cars in both sagas at least once, because I'm a freak who love cars. There aren't many racing games with the numbers of FM7 or GT5 / 6, if any.
From a GT Pro car or 60's F1 cars, passing through the Honda Prelude or even a VW Type 2 De Luxe, I love that the game allow me to drive anything I wanted whenever I want to do, and today only Turn 10 delivers that premise .
The focus on Gran Turismo, as I said before, was always been not only a "proper racing", but also be an ode to motoring with tons of cars to collect and drive, specially if we're talking about daily drive cars and not just racing beasts. I don't see why both terms must be incompatible today.
If I want a real hardcore racing experience with less cars and more realistic focus, I race on iRacing, Assetto Corsa or Automobilista, but it's not what I want when I play a Forza or Gran Turismo. Of course I love serious racing and motorsports, but I also love to be able to get a normal car, customize it and test it with my friends in a more enthusiast way.
In terms of visual fidelity in the showcase or photomode, you won't see anything better than Gran Turismo to date, and certainly you won't see me denying that fact (on the opposite, I trully admire the level of detail that Polyphony achieve with their own effort). It's just that the ingame car models are not the same as the showcase ones, as simple as that. Even a high-end PC or Xbox One X can only put the high quality model of FM7 in the player's car during gameplay (with the same quality of the Megane that I posted before)... It's a bit naive to believe that a PS4 Pro could put the same model of the Travel Mode (500K to 1M polygons), with exactly the same quality during a normal gameplay...
Or maybe is just that there's no possible comparison between both conditions (Travel Mode and ingame), starting with polygonal count, shadowing and overall lighting conditions. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯We'll see when the game comes out and someone objective does a proper comparison...
A quality model it's not just about realistic lighting and cohesion with the enviroment (the authentic strong point of GT saga), you only need to see the comparison with the Megane. It's not just a matter of IQ or resolution, the model of FM7 have much higher polygonal count because I put the high-model quality setting (the same used in Forzavista). I could put the game on 1080p if you want, but the model quality itself (polygonal mesh) will remain better on FM7.
Of course, that capture was from the beta on PS4 Pro and many things certainly are improved in the Gold version, but I haven't any sort of problem in make other comparisons when the final game releases. I do like to make comparisons as well, independently of the result (I'm a big fan of both sagas).
Something doesn't need to be calculated in real-time in order to be dynamic. It just needs to not be static, and actually change. What Forza does isn't as fully featured as what games like Pcars, GT5, Driveclub and FH3 does, but it is still dynamic, because the conditions still change. It could definitely still be "more dynamic" as per the examples you're choosing, but the only way for it to not be dynamic, would be if it were static... which it clearly isn't.
And just to blow your mind further, you could do ALL of the real-time calculations that something like Driveclub does, and still have static ToD and/or weather, if the conditions weren't allowed to change. They are two separate terms that often go hand-in-hand, but one doesn't inherently equal the other.
It could though, even if it doesn't. What triggers the change is arbitrary. Forza's rain could be started when the player hits lap 3, when the timer hits 10 minutes, when any car (including AI) hit laps 3, etc... on a technical level this all makes no difference beyond which variable you look to trigger the change. And you could simply make that variable pseudo-random if desired.
l2ounD
Member
ethomaz
Banned
When you choose these options the game set when it will start the weather change and it is already decided if it will rain or not when the race start... the simulation is done before the race start... that is why it didnt change while the race didnt progress... it doesnt simulate if it will rain or not in real time.
All these options are used to pre-define all changes that will happen on the race before it starts.
That is why you will find reviewer saying the Dynanic Weather System is not truly dynamic.
eso76
Member
Guys, it's very simple, really.
Weather is dynamic as in it can go from dry to rain to thunderstorm and dry again during a race. Then the road will progressively dry and apparently it will do so quicker along the ideal race line as cars race on it, and stay wet everywhere else.
Dynamic as in puddles will form and dry as passing cars splash the water away.
That much is simulated it would seem, or approximated anyway. It's dynamic.
This is a graphics comparison thread, so I would assume this is only brought up because of the tech involved ("yeah it looks worse but the weather is dynamic!"). What triggers the rain is irrelevant in this discussion. The tech is there, and that is all.
Now Tod is a different thing.
Tod in FM7 only changes from dusk to night or night to dawn from what I've seen.
Shadows on the track aren't dynamic. It doesn't have real time dynamic unified lighting allowing the shadows to move according to where the sun is. The sun won't move across the sky ever, at most it will set or rise, so going from shadows on to shadows off or vice versa.
You can sit on the track forever, but that sunrise will never turn into noon.
Not because the event isn't triggered or scheduled, but because the tech doesn't allow it. It doesn't allow shadows to move because they're baked.
TLr
For the intents of this thread, weather is dynamic. Tod only very marginally so.
Weather is dynamic as in it can go from dry to rain to thunderstorm and dry again during a race. Then the road will progressively dry and apparently it will do so quicker along the ideal race line as cars race on it, and stay wet everywhere else.
Dynamic as in puddles will form and dry as passing cars splash the water away.
That much is simulated it would seem, or approximated anyway. It's dynamic.
This is a graphics comparison thread, so I would assume this is only brought up because of the tech involved ("yeah it looks worse but the weather is dynamic!"). What triggers the rain is irrelevant in this discussion. The tech is there, and that is all.
Now Tod is a different thing.
Tod in FM7 only changes from dusk to night or night to dawn from what I've seen.
Shadows on the track aren't dynamic. It doesn't have real time dynamic unified lighting allowing the shadows to move according to where the sun is. The sun won't move across the sky ever, at most it will set or rise, so going from shadows on to shadows off or vice versa.
You can sit on the track forever, but that sunrise will never turn into noon.
Not because the event isn't triggered or scheduled, but because the tech doesn't allow it. It doesn't allow shadows to move because they're baked.
TL
rFor the intents of this thread, weather is dynamic. Tod only very marginally so.
BLAUcopter
Gold Member
I can't wait to get this on the one x.
Guys, it's very simple, really.
Weather is dynamic as in it can go from dry to rain to thunderstorm and dry again during a race. Then the road will progressively dry and apparently it will do so quicker along the ideal race line as cars race on it, and stay wet everywhere else.
Dynamic as in puddles will form and dry as passing cars splash the water away.
That much is simulated it would seem, or approximated anyway. It's dynamic.
This is a graphics comparison thread, so I would assume this is only brought up because of the tech involved ("yeah it looks worse but the weather is dynamic!"). What triggers the rain is irrelevant in this discussion. The tech is there, and that is all.
Now Tod is a different thing.
Tod in FM7 only changes from dusk to night or night to dawn from what I've seen.
Shadows on the track aren't dynamic. It doesn't have real time dynamic unified lighting allowing the shadows to move according to where the sun is. The sun won't move across the sky ever, at most it will set or rise, so going from shadows on to shadows off or vice versa.
You can sit on the track forever, but that sunrise will never turn into noon.
Not because the event isn't triggered or scheduled, but because the tech doesn't allow it. It doesn't allow shadows to move because they're baked.
TL
For the intents of this thread, weather is dynamic. Tod only very marginally so.
This is well put.
Both weather and ToD are dynamic, but whereas the weather has few notable shortcuts and limitations, the time of say has a lot of notable restrictions. This doesn't mean it's not dynamic, it just means more shortcuts are taken, and its range is limited.
To put it simply:
Static Race starts a 8pm in-game. You race for 6 hours. Race ends at 8pm in-game.
Dyanmic (Forza 7): Race starts at 8pm in-game . You race for 6 hours. Race ends at midnight in-game.
Dynamic (Project Cars 2): Race starts at 8pm in-game. You race for 6 hours. Race ends at 11am in-game.
Forza 7's ToD then has a limited dynamic range (owing to limitation with the lighting system), as opposed to Project Cars having a full dynamic range. Both are still dynamic however.
So what game do you see coming out in the next year that will make it easy to see that Xbox One X is a lot more powerful than PS4 Pro up against GTS , Horizon Zero Dawn, Spider Man , God of War 4 , Last Us 2 , Detroit , Death Stranding & so on?
Forza 7 can't make a case for it if someone can look over & see GTS on the PS4 Pro looking a lot better.
Maybe they will patch Forza 7 to use even higher settings down the line but for now a higher resolution isn't making Forza 7 look as good as GTS.
l2ounD
Member
I think its disingenuous to call both dynamic when one cant even cast shadows, when doing the ToD change
It would be disingenuous to call the shadows dynamic, which is why the range is limited to times/conditions where they wouldn't be a factor.
How exactly are the temperature, humidity and pressure determined?
l2ounD
Member
I dont think Im understanding you right. Having a dynamic light source is what makes a dynamic ToD is it not?
To have a full range you would need to yes, because the shadows would move as time passes. Forza's night races begin with the sun already disappearing behind cloud cover, so they can simply darken the skies to pass the time, leaving only the light sources on the track itself (roadside lamps etc). This is why it can't do a full 24hr cycle, because you couldn't reasonably approximate it with this solution. But it's also very clearly not static.
The term dynamic isn't binary. Things can be more or less dynamic, whilst still being dynamic. If something goes from 20 to 24, then it's dynamic, even if it can't go from 6 to 24. If it were stuck at 20 though, then it'd be static.
Weird thread for this, but I can at least rule out Forza 7 and Need for Speed Payback out for you. Neither of those are on Steam (Windows Store and Origin respectively), and so can't share their licenses via Steam.
You would be able to share Forza 7 by having the other PC be the home PC however (can only be changed once every 90 days iirc). This does have the advantage of two people being able to play at the same time with each other.
Project Cars 2 will likely allow Steam family sharing.
Ahhh so what you're saying is the weather changes, or progresses, which is the definition of dynamic. Thanks for agreeing.
Inviusx
Member
Can FM7 go from cloudy overcast rain to a sunny day?
This is great. The top tier contenders are definitely PC2 and GTS at this point.
Stillmatic
Member
That could be a baked transition. If it happens the same everytime it's not dynamic. Dynamic weather has usually referred to unpredictable variables.
l2ounD
Member
Again that totally feels disingenuous to call both dynamic then.
Being dynamic is pretty binary in game engines and its usually a checkbox, do you want a dynamic light? check yes or no.
If being dynamic is too expensive for the engine you usually try to fake it.
At this point all the racing games look pretty amazing, whats going under the hood with PC2 looks sweet though. I dont think there are a lot of game doing what they are, maybe iRacing with the dynamic track temps. They should definitely promo the live track more.
Not really the thread for this discussion but as you said before 3rd party titles will likely show the difference the best and that will be the most common test case. As far as 1st party games go, we may see common traits between them like lower resolution textures on average on Pro titles. Still it's always been a flawed goal to compare exclusives when we'll never know how they would turn out on competing hardware. What you're claiming and asking is a question that can't be proven, so it's a bullshit claim.
With Forza 7, you know it's highly unlikely they would do anything more because it already looks to be running at the max settings the team created for the title.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
No... just no...
Static = doesnt change
Dynamic = does change
It doesn't make a difference how or why it changes, simply changing is what makes it dynamic.
Also people claiming GT simulates full weather metrics when its "wet" racing is nothing more than a flat grip reduction 😂😂😂
FlutterPuffs
Member
Think of this as a temporary ceasefire in the thread, and we have just entered the cold war stage.Please let me know when we can go back to showcasing some lovely graphics
Dubai in FM7 looks very nice.
Pictures will resume once GT Sports demo is up. I just hope there'll be plenty of survivors left after.
Stillmatic
Member
Something can be animated and not be dynamic. For eg. Clouds moving in a game doesn't make them dynamic, it's the system in place that makes them move/or change that defines that.
It only feels disingenuous to you, because you conflate the "what" with the "how". Being dynamic is only binary in terms of if it's static or not. This would apply to various aspects in a game engine, but not a game engine itself. For example combinations of both baked and dynamic lighting/shadows are typically used in the same engine.
Here "time of day" is a concept. It's the "what". Dynamic shadows would be a "how", and whilst it would be the most common "how" it not the only one, as many games have demonstrated in the past, even going back to very early titles (Outrun dynamically changes scenery, and the original Ridge Racer dynamically changes the time of day).
Nearly everything in games is faked regardless, the difference is the approach you take to fake things, and the tradeoffs for how believable the end result is. Driveclub's dynamic weather is clearly faked for example, moreso than FM7's, which is why you never get puddles regardless of the track's topology, which actually simulating rainfall would give you (and with Project Car's more dynamic approach, even lead to unintended flooding of some tracks). It still can't be argued reasonably as not being dynamic however, because the only ways for that to be true would be for it to either be always raining (ala FM6 rain settings) or always dry.
FM7 has a system in place that causes ToD and weather changes to happen though, otherwise it would be the same at all times in every race.
TheAdmiester
Member
I think the fact that you can set the probability of weather in a Forza 7, in other words leaving it up to RNG variables, is enough proof of it being dynamic.
I dunno how the argument has even lasted this long to be honest.
I dunno how the argument has even lasted this long to be honest.
You've been here long enough to know that the simplest things can be argued for literal years here.
l2ounD
Member
Well it feels disingenuous to me because PC2 can be like "We have dynamic ToD, check out our ToD cycle!"
And you're like "Forza has dynamic ToD too!"
Only Forza doesnt have a ToD cycle.. because they dont have a dynamic Sun..
But you can call it whatever you want, I wouldnt call it that though
travisbickle
Member
It's easy to find out if it has dynamic weather. In Driveclub every time you reset the race the weather changed. It became a problem with time trials because some people were setting lap times during a dry spell while others couldn't.
If you set the chance of rain to 50% in DC, each time you race/reset the weather would change; you could race the whole race without rain or it would start at 2 mins, or 14 mins, whenever. If you set the chance of rain to 50% in Forza and it rains at 2 min 30 each time you race, after reseting, it is not dynamic. It's obviously better for comparing times because everyone races in the same conditions, but it's not dynamic.
If you set the chance of rain to 50% in DC, each time you race/reset the weather would change; you could race the whole race without rain or it would start at 2 mins, or 14 mins, whenever. If you set the chance of rain to 50% in Forza and it rains at 2 min 30 each time you race, after reseting, it is not dynamic. It's obviously better for comparing times because everyone races in the same conditions, but it's not dynamic.
Notice how in your Forza marketing quote, you chose to omit the word cycle. There you go, you've resolved your own problem, congratulations. Forza has dynamic ToD, but doesn't have a ToD cycle, because its limitation prevent it from being able to cycle.
You can feel however you want, and choose to call it however you want... but you'd be objectively wrong in this case. It's more disingenuous to say it doesn't have a dynamic ToD, because that would imply that it remains static (which is what ethomaz was previously implying). Similarly you'd be wrong to claim Driveclub or Gran Turismo 5 doesn't have dynamic weather, simply because it's not equivalent to the dynamic weather offered by Project Cars. It wouldn't be disingenuous to claim that neither Project Gotham Racing 4 or Forza Motorsport 6 have dynamic weather though.
No, that would only describe whether or not it is actually triggered randomly. If your scenario played out as suggest, then you could call out the random probability as being bullshit... but it'd have no bearing on whether it's dynamic or not. As a counter-example if you set ToD values in Driveclub, they will match each time, because ToD isn't random even when it's dynamic. The two have little relevance.
Jamesways
Member
So in FM7 can I choose 4am at LeMans with rainy skies clearing for the sunrise in any mode?
Does FM7 offers the same type of dynamic options of pCARS?
I'm confused at the discussion. Some posts saying yes it's completely dynamic but with limitations. Can you not pick the time and weather and grid for a quick race?
Does FM7 offers the same type of dynamic options of pCARS?
I'm confused at the discussion. Some posts saying yes it's completely dynamic but with limitations. Can you not pick the time and weather and grid for a quick race?
transformer
Member
Did you play project cars? Same weather patterns every race in the career mode. Restart, replay, etc. Same weather pattern every time. It was dynamic because it changed during the race. However, it is a piece of software. The changes have to be coded in. Even with random number generators the same sequence of "random" numbers will occur.
If the conditions change over time, then it's dynamic. Now we can have a discussion on the robustness of different dynamic weather/ToD systems in racing games. However, your claim that Forza 7 doesn't have dynamic weather or ToD is just rubbish.
transformer
Member
Yes. I did a race earlier today that started overcast, then rain, and the rain stopped with the sun peeking through the clouds towards the end of the race. Track started dry, progressively got wet as the rain fell, and progressively dried after it stopped raining.
transformer
Member
I don't think Forza 7 should be dismissed so easily. Granted, I've only seen GTS beta on an OG PS4 and Forza 7 on an OG Xbox one, but I didn't think GTS was much of an improvement (if at all) on Forza 7 on the xbox one. I'm talking gameplay of course. I'll wait to see the actual game and try GTS on the pro, and Forza 7 on the Xbox one X before I make a final conclusion, but Forza 7 is a fantastic looking game. Additionally, the Xbox one X version is much more than just higher resolution.
l2ounD
Member
Is it though? Doesnt the sun remain static? Can you go 3pm to 5pm? How can you say you have a dynamic ToD if you cant even make the sun move. Thats way more disingenuous. ;p
transformer
Member
Well I've raced where it's transitioned from day to night and vice versa. The sun certainly wasn't static in those races. I would say hays dynamic ToD. How would it not be?
Fredrik
Member
Sigh... I hope the devs stay far away from this thread. The current talk here might make these games have even more 2D trees or whatever in the next iterations, you people are clearly never satisfied with how they handle the time of day and weather changes. I don't get why it's so important. Are you meteorologists or racing fans?? I'm having a ton of fun with both FM7 and PC2, and they both look awesome, runs great even on three screens too, it's seriously the best year ever when it comes to racing. And from the look of things now that new impressions are starting to appear I'm sure the GTS demo will make me drool. Hopefully I can keep myself from buying it to get the vote with the wallet thing for more SP content going. But we'll how that goes... I'm a weak old man... Anyhow I'm just surprised how much you're focusing on things that aren't imo making or breaking a racer in any way, for graphics or gameplay. Would a racer be completely worthless nowadays with no ToD/weather changes? That's what it sounds like here right now imo. And I mean who cares what isn't changing if you're _standing still_ on the track?? Why would you do that?? As long as things change when you're actually driving then anyone with an interest of these dynamic things should be happy with these racers from my point of view.
Considering how PC2 struggles to reach 60fps on base consoles, I'm not sure that's what other games should be striving for. Sure you can argue that it's more impressive on a technical level but it comes at a huge cost of resolution and frame rate. When just looking at PC2 and Forza, I'm not sure which looks better on consoles, but I certainly know which runs better. Would a dynamic sun be worth resolution and frame rate to you? Is it really such a bad thing if other games find a good compromise that produced a similar result?
Developers wouldn't even listen to half the comments in this thread anyways =p
I know weather is up in the air with GTS but does it have dynamic tod?
The sun doesn't remain static, but also doesn't actually appear to be actually lighting anything. It's just a thing in the sky basically. It starts out barely visible before being obscured as the sky darkens.
It doesn't matter if you can't go 3pm to 5pm specifically (or a full 24hr cycle). That's a discussion surrounding the limitations of the implementation. Going from any time to any other time is dynamic. If it was permanently set at the same time, then it would be static. This is really simple, and I don't understand how we're even still discussing it tbh.
l2ounD
Member
Oh I didnt know you can see the sun move
I don't think you can (you may have read my post pre-edit, which made it sound like you could). The clouds cover the sun to obscured that it doesn't move, but then the sky darkens to give the impression of it having set whilst you couldn't see it.
Fredrik
Member
This is my thoughts as well, compromises are there for a reason.
I just think that when things are getting downgrades just to have ToD/weather changes and people still aren't satisfied if it isn't 100% perfect, then it's time to start reflecting where your interest actually lies.
I know this thread is about graphics but are we even talking about the graphics at this point? And is racing still why you're playing/buying/talking about these games or could it be any other genre as well? I've even seen excuses for lower framerates in this thread, something that is okay for other genres but is in big way hurting racing gameplay.
There are a surprisingly small amount of actual gameplay videos in this thread too (and also in the OTs which is even more surprising), the focus is clearly on replays and photo mode, to the point that it's actually difficult for someone out of the loop to get how the games look in gameplay.
ethomaz
Banned
You cant see because it doesnt move at all... it is static.
Last gen had perfect dynamic weather and ToD so why we cant have it this gen? Why have baked weather and ToD?
That is my biggest complain with GTS.
When Forzas devs said the 7 version will have dynamic weather system I thought it was a point over the downgrade GT had but it turned out it is not... the PR dynamic weather was just PR after all.
Forza 7 has a pre-defined/baked weather system with no real time time simulation... that is the impression I have.
l2ounD
Member
Man, I was giving you the point. haha. But even you are saying it doesnt move and its playing peekaboo hide n seek.