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Nintendo Investor Meeting [Nintendo 1st Party DLC, NSMB3DS, NiN, Info In OP]

U

UncleSporky

Member
Regulus Tera said:
I hate it because back in my day DLC was known as unlockables, and they came with the standard package of the game.
Click to expand...

Because no games with DLC have any unlockables. The stuff you can earn by performing various tasks like shooting pigeons in GTA4 don't unlock, by the strict definition of the word. Now, Gay Tony and Lost and Damned, those are what used to be unlockables back in the good old 16 bit days. Yep.
 
C

Cipherr

Member
birdchili said:
what about if the creator thought they had created a finished game with a defined beginning, middle, and end... with good pacing and mechanic unlocks... and then their publisher said they needed to release 3 dlc packs for it over the next year?
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What about if the creator thought they had created a finished game with a defined beginning, middle, and end... with good pacing and mechanic unlocks... and then their publisher said they needed to add more explosions, tack on some sort of multiplayer, and make the primary protagonist more of a 'gritty heroic male' cliche?

You see, the problem is, what you have is an argument against publishers sticking their noses where it does not belong. But thats not a problem inherent with adding on to a game. A creator could create a game, then 6 months later have a fantastic idea with a perfect way to expand the game and decide to do so instead of releasing a sequel with 50% of the content of the original release.
 
R

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
UncleSporky said:
Because no games with DLC have any unlockables. The stuff you can earn by performing various tasks like shooting pigeons in GTA4 don't unlock, by the strict definition of the word. Now, Gay Tony and Lost and Damned, those are unlockables.
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Rockstar is one of the few companies that I will admit do it right. Way after release, and they are almost a whole new game.
 
L

Lord_Byron28

Member
Regulus Tera said:
it's cool bro

I hate it because back in my day DLC was known as unlockables, and they came with the standard package of the game.

Maybe Nintendo's DLC will be more ethical than that. Maybe there are some companies that already do great DLC instead of downloadable keys or releasing games before completion. And good for them, but the principle of DLC in general is what irks me.

Video games had a good run.
Click to expand...

Speaking hypothetically what about SSB? Say a game releases with a similar amount of Depth and content as Brawl or Melee. Then a year later you see a DLC pack including 5 new characters, a few new stages and a few new items.

As others pointed out there are plenty of good examples of DLC and no they weren't unlockables back in "your day".
 
U

UncleSporky

Member
Regulus Tera said:
Rockstar is one of the few companies that I will admit do it right. Way after release, and they are almost a whole new game.
Click to expand...

How many tables in Pinball FX 2 should we have expected to be unlockables by classic standards, and conversely how many seem like more than you'd expect to have seen in a single game?

Is it like, I'm being unfairly charged for the first 4 tables I buy, but then the rest are worth the money since they wouldn't have been unlockables back in the day?
 
M

Medalion

Banned
Door2Dawn said:
Not really. They have to actually implement these things. Nintendo is pretty notorious for half-assing these things.
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image.php



Got a feeling they are not doing this alone
 
Allan Holdsworth

Allan Holdsworth

Member
Gianni Merryman said:
Some may arrgue it may result in a generally worse quality of the games, that's to say more bugs - since one can patch it afterwards - and a lack of content, and would rather have a fully tested game with everything in the box, let alone free DLC may be just the trojan horse to exploit consumers in many possible ways.

I can see there are both positive and negative points, by the way times change things, and even Nintendo has to reconsider something in their policies, if they want to provide with what people demand in order to stay afloat in videogames market
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That's the thing though, consumers aren't demanding DLC. DLC is only good for publishers.
 
G

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Anyone else think the digital avenue to fill first party schedule holes will most likely be HD Wii and GC releases?

Its the biggest way to get attention because i can't imagine their original download efforts getting much attention like DSi Ware barely did. Lets hope they are priced well.


As i was typing that, i realized that on the amazingly unfortunate off chance that Nintendo doesnt have some Mario game at launch, that they might be able to get away with an HD U Tablet'ified re-release/remix of any of the Galaxy or NSMB games on Wii with new content as a digital pack in.

That is a crazy fantasy though, because they will totally have NSMB Mii at launch. That series is a fucking sales juggernaut.
 
A

AceBandage

Banned
Gamer @ Heart said:
Anyone else think the digital avenue to fill first party schedule holes will most likely be HD Wii and GC releases?

Its the biggest way to get attention because i can't imagine their original download efforts getting much attention like DSi Ware barely did. Lets hope they are priced well.


As i was typing that, i realized that on the amazingly unfortunate off chance that Nintendo doesnt have some Mario game at launch, that they might be able to get away with an HD U Tablet'ified re-release/remix of any of the Galaxy or NSMB games on Wii with new content as a digital pack in.

That is a crazy fantasy though, because they will totally have NSMB Mii at launch. That series is a fucking sales juggernaut.
Click to expand...

Recently on the 3DS, they've been releasing a whole slew of original games on the eShop to fill the void.
It's been awesome/
 
W

watershed

Banned
I totally forgot Nintendo mentioned a 60% internet connection rate for the 3ds in US and Japan. I wonder how many of those connected users frequent the eshop or play online on a regular basis. Still sounds like a pretty healthy market to sell DD content to unless the majority are kids whose parents won't let them buy stuff online.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Allan Holdsworth said:
That's the thing though, consumers aren't demanding DLC. DLC is only good for publishers.
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Maybe not to the extent of full retail releases, but if there wasn't a big enough demand for DLC publishers wouldn't bother. As you said, it's only good for publishers, and given their interest is making money they're not going to bother investing in projects, DLC included, if there's no chance of making money. The revenue might be higher than retail, but these things still cost money to make.

DLC is only going to get bigger and bigger, with more customers using it. I can only hope Nintendo adopts a fair pricing model. I love DLC...in the right context. As in, developers making expansions that are meaty in content and good value for money. DLC, in theory, and in the right execution, is a magnificent way to extend the life and value of your product.

But I'm not sure I trust Nintendo with this. Their pricing model for everything has always been about maximising profits and capitalising on hype and demand. Every console is, relatively, overpriced for the hardware inside (avoiding selling at loss). They're mainline games never drop in price unless they hit a select budget line, because they know they'll keep selling. Their eStore and Wii store prices for games are, by large, much higher than what most of the competition offers.

Nintendo is a company that prices products very high. I fully expect this business policy to transfer across to DLC, and as much as I enjoy their games, I would not be in the least bit surprised to see Nintendo screwing consumers with overpriced crap moreso than anybody else.
 
E

EmCeeGramr

Member
EatChildren said:
Maybe not to the extent of full retail releases, but if there wasn't a big enough demand for DLC publishers wouldn't bother. As you said, it's only good for publishers, and given their interest is making money they're not going to bother investing in projects, DLC included, if there's no chance of making money. The revenue might be higher than retail, but these things still cost money to make.

DLC is only going to get bigger and bigger, with more customers using it. I can only hope Nintendo adopts a fair pricing model. I love DLC...in the right context. As in, developers making expansions that are meaty in content and good value for money. DLC, in theory, and in the right execution, is a magnificent way to extend the life and value of your product.

But I'm not sure I trust Nintendo with this. Their pricing model for everything has always been about maximising profits and capitalising on hype and demand. Every console is, relatively, overpriced for the hardware inside (avoiding selling at loss). They're mainline games never drop in price unless they hit a select budget line, because they know they'll keep selling. Their eStore and Wii store prices for games are, by large, much higher than what most of the competition offers.

Nintendo is a company that prices products very high. I fully expect this business policy to transfer across to DLC, and as much as I enjoy their games, I would not be in the least bit surprised to see Nintendo screwing consumers with overpriced crap moreso than anybody else.
Click to expand...

Costume Pack 1:
Dr. Mario, Twilight Princess Link, Fusion Suit Samus, Kirby's Sunglasses
$9.99
 
A

AceBandage

Banned
Phoenician_Viking said:
Have Nintendo been beefing up their staff per studio? I am wondering because HD games require more time and resource than none HD games.
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Retro has been hiring quite a bit.
And Nintendo is building a fairly large building in Tokyo to expand.
We don't know how much their other inter studios have expanded though.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
I just hate the idea of DLC. It's impossible for any developer to deny that as soon as the idea of DLC comes into the picture, you're immediately thinking of things that could go there while making the game. I like it as a value added proposition for consumers, something that shouldn't even be in their minds until they complete the game they want to make. But I feel like a lot of the time it's just +++profit for publishers. "Here is what we'll keep in the game, here is what we'll introduce as DLC" ugh, I just hate that shit.

Not gonna deny either that it can be done fairly and be done well, but I just can't help but feel that most aren't.
 
G

GCX

Member
AceBandage said:
Retro has been hiring quite a bit.
And Nintendo is building a fairly large building in Tokyo to expand.
We don't know how much their other inter studios have expanded though.
Click to expand...
We know that EAD Tokyo and Monolith both have two teams now because of the expansion.
 
D

Darryl

Banned
EatChildren said:
Nintendo is a company that prices products very high. I fully expect this business policy to transfer across to DLC, and as much as I enjoy their games, I would not be in the least bit surprised to see Nintendo screwing consumers with overpriced crap moreso than anybody else.
Click to expand...

I can see Nintendo screwing you differently depending on the type of DLC

$9.99 expansion to New Super Mario Bros: Mii. Doubles length of game.

$19.99 rare baseball cap, outfit your pokemon!
 
R

RagnarokX

Member
I can totally see Nintendo going the Pokemon TCG route and selling bags of random figurines that unlock things in games. Won't know what you get until you buy them. Wallets will bleed.
 
D

Darryl

Banned
RagnarokX said:
I can totally see Nintendo going the Pokemon TCG route and selling bags of random figurines that unlock things in games. Won't know what you get until you buy them. Wallets will bleed.
Click to expand...

i can't even imagine how much money they would've made if they had introduced this concept during the height of the wii
 
T

Terrell

Member
Allan Holdsworth said:
That's the thing though, consumers aren't demanding DLC. DLC is only good for publishers.
Click to expand...

Actually, I remember that we WERE clamoring for DLC, because there was the promise and potential for it to do amazing things to gaming, like extending the viability of the games we purchased with smaller but fully fleshed-out chunks of content.

What happened was that potential was squandered by developers in disgusting and embarrassing ways.

I could use this type of argument for hating the internet as a whole. All of this phenomenal potential as a medium that's buried in HUGE amounts of redundant crap that people throw up just to monetize via clicks on a Google link. The internet itself isn't the problem, it's what was DONE WITH IT that is. Same thing with DLC.

If we see a first-party like Nintendo step up and use it to the potential we all saw it for when it was first announced and made us excited for it, people would stop spending money on the shit DLC because they see it in comparison to DLC of ACTUAL VALUE and change how it's used for the better when people start seeing how it's viably supposed to be done.

-Pyromaniac- said:
I just hate the idea of DLC. It's impossible for any developer to deny that as soon as the idea of DLC comes into the picture, you're immediately thinking of things that could go there while making the game. I like it as a value added proposition for consumers, something that shouldn't even be in their minds until they complete the game they want to make. But I feel like a lot of the time it's just +++profit for publishers. "Here is what we'll keep in the game, here is what we'll introduce as DLC" ugh, I just hate that shit.

Not gonna deny either that it can be done fairly and be done well, but I just can't help but feel that most aren't.
Click to expand...

If developers wanted to include EVERYTHING they thought of in a game, some of them could. And you know what happens when you try to do that? DUKE NUKEM FOREVER, that's what. Seriously, go take a look at how many times it was scrapped because 3D Worlds wanted to include the latest and greatest FPS innovations. Eventually, you HAVE TO have a cutoff point for what to include.

The problem arrives when developers make a game that just doesn't have enough legitimate content to justify a $60 purchase, and then has DLC for more content within a MONTH of the game's release. It's totally transparent why it's available so soon after game launch and it's disgusting. THAT is the problem you're referring to, intentionally short-changing a game and using DLC to over-value it.

And to make you feel better, Nintendo has stood up and agreed with you on this fact. They have stated that when and if they offer it, they want it to be to expand the game beyond the cut-off point they had in its design development cycle.
 
J

jj984jj

He's a pretty swell guy in my books anyway.
GCX said:
We know that EAD Tokyo and Monolith both have two teams now because of the expansion.
Click to expand...
Monolith already had more than one team, they opened a new studio in Kyoto.

I'm sure they have big plans for Project Sora too.
 
P

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Terrell said:
And to make you feel better, Nintendo has stood up and agreed with you on this fact. They have stated that when and if they offer it, they want it to be to expand the game beyond the cut-off point they had in its design development cycle.
Click to expand...
yeah that is what I mean, and I hope you're right about this. But it's easy to understand why I don't have much faith. Once they get the blood lust who knows how they'll behave. I have some faith only because it's nintendo, but not a whole lot.
 
T

Terrell

Member
Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I think that people are right in saying that the digital distribution of "packaged" games is something Nintendo will use to release games that it has less faith in out in regular retail channels.

They had some moderate success with that, releasing Sin & Punishment on Virtual Console and seeing enough sales there that it got a retail release of the sequel.

Had this been around on the Wii, I bet I'd be playing Fatal Frame 4 right now.
 
W

watershed

Banned
I agree with the idea that Nintendo will push the limit on what most people would consider good or acceptable pricing for DLC. Given Nintendo's comments on DLC I think most DLC they offer will be substantial like more levels/tracks/missions and not stuff like horse armor but I wonder how much they will charge for this stuff.

For example would 1 new world in 3D Land or a 2D Mario game be worth $10 dollars? or $15?

On the flipside all the 1st party DD games I've bought off the eshop have been $10 or under (I think) and are packed with content so maybe they'll get the content vs price balance right.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
-Pyromaniac- said:
I just hate the idea of DLC. It's impossible for any developer to deny that as soon as the idea of DLC comes into the picture, you're immediately thinking of things that could go there while making the game.
Click to expand...

You have to remember developers have finite time, resources and money to make games. Valve's philosophy of telling staff "your favourite feature will be cut" exists for a reason. Sometimes there's not enough time to implement a feature, or polish an existing one until it works. Content is always cut, from every game in existence, and sometimes that content can be reworked into something else later.

Maybe publishers think that way, but I don't feel developers do. If they could include each and everything they wanted into a single game they would, but they'd also probably never release a game at all, as the title would get stuck in an infinite cycle of new ideas. Think of something two years into development? You can pull everything back and squeeze it in. It just isn't possible (unless you live in lala land like Valve).

DLC should really just be a modernised philosophy akin to expansion packs. PC gamers have essentially been using DLC long, long before console gamers even heard of the term. It was very common for PC games to have expansion packs released a year or so after the original game. Ideally modern DLC would follow this philosophy, lots of nice, sizable and affordable game expanding content arriving a year or so after the game releases.

The problem isn't so much DLC, it's the awful publishers exploiting it to exploit their customers.
 
A

Agent Unknown

Member
EricDiesel said:
Didn't you get the memo? ALL DLC is overpriced and terrible. And already on the disc. All of it. Good DLC is a myth. Anyone that says otherwise is clearly lying to you.

Seriously, why is "DLC" a dirty word. As long as it's NEW content not already in the retail copy, doesn't shorten the original experience, and worth the money, I don't see how it's a bad thing. I see it as a great thing. If Valve never releases a Portal 3 and instead releases yearly DLC for 2, even for money, I'd be more than happy.

I'm sure Nintendo's DLC will be just as worthwhile. Completely positive it will be.
Click to expand...
This. Imagine if SMG 2 had DLC and we'd been offered new, additional challenging levels to download after finishing the Grandmaster Galaxy? There's some seriously good possibilities if they do this right.
 
E

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Agent Unknown said:
This. Imagine if SMG 2 had DLC and we'd been offered new, additional challenging levels to download after finishing the Grandmaster Galaxy? There's some seriously good possibilities if they do this right.
Click to expand...

SMG2 is actually a game that makes me confident that Nintendo has the right idea in terms of content quality. Lots of people whined that it looked like an expansion pack when it was first revealed, but the game itself was nothing like that. Even reading the Iwata Asks, the devs really went overboard in throwing as much content and variety into the package as possible.

If that similar train of thinking spans across to DLC then we should get plenty of great content. But quality isn't my concern. Pricing is.
 
T

Terrell

Member
artwalknoon said:
I agree with the idea that Nintendo will push the limit on what most people would consider good or acceptable pricing for DLC. Given Nintendo's comments on DLC I think most DLC they offer will be substantial like more levels/tracks/missions and not stuff like horse armor but I wonder how much they will charge for this stuff.

For example would 1 new world in 3D Land or a 2D Mario game be worth $10 dollars? or $15?

On the flipside all the 1st party DD games I've bought off the eshop have been $10 or under (I think) and are packed with content so maybe they'll get the content vs price balance right.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree. There's ONE sticking point here... Nintendo may institute a DLC approval process that publishers may not like to make sure all games meet their criteria of true value-added DLC. I highly doubt that, and would rather shame publishers and developers by just being a better example. But the option is THERE..
 
W

watershed

Banned
Terrell said:
Yeah, I agree. There's ONE sticking point here... Nintendo may institute a DLC approval process that publishers may not like to make sure all games meet their criteria of true value-added DLC. I highly doubt that, and would rather shame publishers and developers by just being a better example. But the option is THERE..
Click to expand...

No I think Nintendo will let 3rd party publishers do whatever they want with DLC based on quotes Iwata has given on the subject and their whole philosophy of being more welcoming to 3rd parties. The way I see it some 3rd party publishers will continue to abuse DLC and I'll just ignore it.

I'm just curious about how Nintendo will handle pricing with their own DLC.

The only evidence I know of that demonstrates Nintendo influencing pricing of 3rd party DD content is that they currently set the prices of games on the eshop including 3rd party software. The publisher/developer submits a suggested price then Nintendo will either approve or offer a counter price.

We know for a fact that this happened with Mutant Mudds. Renegade Kid suggested a $10 price and Nintendo knocked it down to $9. But with that example the game actually got cheaper so maybe Nintendo will keep all DD/DLC prices low to attract consumers!
 
A

Agent Unknown

Member
EatChildren said:
SMG2 is actually a game that makes me confident that Nintendo has the right idea in terms of content quality. Lots of people whined that it looked like an expansion pack when it was first revealed, but the game itself was nothing like that. Even reading the Iwata Asks, the devs really went overboard in throwing as much content and variety into the package as possible.

If that similar train of thinking spans across to DLC then we should get plenty of great content. But quality isn't my concern. Pricing is.
Click to expand...

Nicely summed up (both in terms of how awesome SMG 2 was and potential for Nintendo DLC), I agree. Pricing is the main/only real concern for me too.
 
T

Terrell

Member
HOLY CRAP, I just realized something....

DLC gives Nintendo's teams the option to add DLC to games from OTHER INTERNAL DEV TEAMS.

It would bring back that idea of competitive spirit that Yamauchi instilled in Nintendo back in the NES era when he pitted the internal teams against one other to out-do the other for game approvals. Having dev teams try to make a better game than the original team is a neat idea, and allows some teams to flex their talent muscles beyond their own franchises.

EAD making scenario maps for Fire Emblem.

Retro making 3D Mario levels.

Monolith making Mario Kart tracks.

Heck, they could even let 3rd-parties in on this madness, if they wanted!


Now I'm batshit excited about this idea if this happens!
 
sakipon

sakipon

Member
Terrell said:
Having dev teams try to make a better game than the original team is a neat idea, and allows some teams to flex their talent muscles beyond their own franchises.
Click to expand...

Have to admit this sounds like a really nice idea. For all parties involved.
 
G

Gravijah

Member
Terrell said:
HOLY CRAP, I just realized something....

DLC gives Nintendo's teams the option to add DLC to games from OTHER INTERNAL DEV TEAMS.

It would bring back that idea of competitive spirit that Yamauchi instilled in Nintendo back in the NES era when he pitted the internal teams against one other to out-do the other for game approvals. Having dev teams try to make a better game than the original team is a neat idea, and allows some teams to flex their talent muscles beyond their own franchises.

EAD making scenario maps for Fire Emblem.

Retro making 3D Mario levels.

Monolith making Mario Kart tracks.

Heck, they could even let 3rd-parties in on this madness, if they wanted!


Now I'm batshit excited about this idea if this happens!
Click to expand...

this isn't going to happen. it's dlc, the very minimum amount of effort will be put into it.

they'll make someone shitty like genius sonority their dedicated dlc house or something.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Terrell said:
HOLY CRAP, I just realized something....

DLC gives Nintendo's teams the option to add DLC to games from OTHER INTERNAL DEV TEAMS.

It would bring back that idea of competitive spirit that Yamauchi instilled in Nintendo back in the NES era when he pitted the internal teams against one other to out-do the other for game approvals. Having dev teams try to make a better game than the original team is a neat idea, and allows some teams to flex their talent muscles beyond their own franchises.
Click to expand...

this would actually be really cool! man i'd love to

Gravijah said:
this isn't going to happen. it's dlc, the very minimum amount of effort will be put into it.

they'll make someone shitty like genius sonority their dedicated dlc house or something.
Click to expand...

fucking crushing reality.
 
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