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[Kagey K]

Jesus guys. I really wish we could have Xbox threads without the constant console war shite, by the same people by the way (take note for once mods).
I really wish NeoGaf would introduce seperate Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo sub forums to go alongside the main forum, where people can discuss stuff without console war shite (make rules that any console war shite means a ban only in those sub forums).

They are supposed to be coming. EviLore made a post a long time ago about communities coming, I can’t seem to find it right now, but maybe he wants to chime in and let us know if they are still in the works.

I know the team has had a lot on their plate with the forum upgrade and whatnot, but a status update would be nice.

Ack got stuck at top of the page so I went and found it it was actually Bill O'Rights that said it.

2. Communities: This is dependent on the work in (1.) being completed; or certainly some of the redesign will need to be structured around this. The old communities were a function of their time, and served their purpose well given the forum software and options available. However, moving forward the internet has changed and so have attitudes. Communities will become a focal point for the genuine users of the site. There will be a separate update regarding this when we look to go live but the headline points are going to be a slight restructure of the forum, communities will be owned by community leads from the users and moderated by them (overseen by the admin/mod team for the site). This way someone who is solely posting in the xbox community for provocation/trolling can be reply banned from participation (subject to review). The main aim is to foster those relationships within communities and you can have a reasonable assurance that the people in the thread are actually posting from an honest and genuine point of view. We will need to decide which communities to reboot and migrate etc. If you think you'd like to own a community or set one up, please do reach out in the meantime so we can touch base. Please do feel free to leave thoughts below on this.

 

[Afro Republican]

Microsoft failed at the conventional console gaming war,.

They barely reported numbers before that was even obvious.

 

[Xenon]

It nice to see the system sell well. Xbox One X is the best gaming hardware I have ever owned. It's also nice to see positive Xbox news gets some people defensive even though the PS4 is dominating. Kevin Chang said it best...

 

[Afro Republican]

Didn't said that either, talking about the use of % in PRs, which means nothing

That NPD clown have been in some dumb war misleading people in resetera & twitter, he can't stand Sony selling more, so he try to paint everyone "winning"

You got any links to anything that shows NPD guy is an Xbox fan because his posts indicate the opposite.

 

[LittleBusters]

Schadenfreude is a real human thing. There is an old Chinese proverb - 'happiness is seeing your neighbor fall off his roof'. Very shitty way to live life.

 

[Raitoningu]

You got any links to anything that shows NPD guy is an Xbox fan because his posts indicate the opposite.

He doesn't gives a shit about xbox, he is a nintendo drone so he hates Sony obviously, which means he'll support anyone against them, childish AF :/

That's why he posts on twitter now after people on the other forum showed his bias.

 

[LostDonkey]

I'll reply when you can muster more than a one-liner to address my gripe with this thread.

Ill just not reply from now on. Hows that.

 

[NickFire]

Jesus guys. I really wish we could have Xbox threads without the constant console war shite, by the same people by the way (take note for once mods).
I really wish NeoGaf would introduce seperate Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo sub forums to go alongside the main forum, where people can discuss stuff without console war shite (make rules that any console war shite means a ban only in those sub forums).

Console wars will never die. Every time someone ages out of them, another young un will step in to keep fighting the "good fight."

 

[Dabaus]

And MS doesn't care. When a company makes over $20 billion in profits every year, they can withstand any division making zero/piddly profits.

Sony on their other hand has the most profits from the gaming and insurance depts. If these two divisions falter, Sony is toast as the rest of their divisions make hardly any money.

Xbox has done gaming a favour by being a solid alternative to gaming (imagine if console gaming was strictly Nintendo and Sony, as Sega dropped off the Earth). More competition means better products for everyone.

What MS has also done is taken away PS gamers from the high flying PS1 and PS2 days of 100m and 150m units when Sony was raking in profits. Since then Sony's profits from PS3 and PS4 are tiny. So MS has done two things to gaming really..... become a solid player in console gaming, and killed off Sony's gaming profits for over 10 years.

You mean that horrible time the ps1 and Nin 64 co-existed and we got some the best games of all time in that generation? Or the ps2 days where Microsoft was irrelevant until halo 2 launched? Yeah dark days. And the PS4 is about to pass 100 million in a month or 2 chief, most of the sales have come from being priced 299 or more. PS4 Still has a lot of life left in it. With an eventual permanent price of 199, It could easily settle at 120-130 million.


As for the actual topic at hand. Without numbers it doesn't mean anything. Wouldn't be surprised if a lot of X's sold were people who already own and xb1 and are upgrading.

 

[Afro Republican]

He doesn't gives a shit about xbox, he is a nintendo drone so he hates Sony obviously, which means he'll support anyone against them, childish AF :/

That's why he posts on twitter now after people on the other forum showed his bias.

Uh, Matt still posts on the other forum though.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Of course I see a difference but why go back to the 90s to see that strategy shift?
You don't need to go that far back. It isn't that old and it's used today. Read interviews from 2012 before xbox one launched.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...rtainment-platform-for-everyone-on-the-planet

You would see number one console and units sold everywhere. Obviously sales are important. It was actually Don Mattrick talking about games as services but that only works with an install base. Look at why Lionhead shut down

https://www.onmsft.com/news/fable-t...-store-instead-steam-says-former-lionhead-dev

It was a strategy shift. A company, any company, that can lock you into an ecosystem will lock you in but they also have to think about sales for software they create too. They will favour console sales because it means you will definetly buy from their store rather than someone elses. They have full control. It will happen again if unit sales for a given platform is enough to sustain game development on it exclusively. It's daft to think otherwise. These are business decisions not a 'wouldn't it be nice..' movement that went away with the XB1 launch.

Two events happened in the 2000s that changed everything: broadband availability and digital distribution. Although the biggest company to push it first was Apple with iTunes, it was obvious back then that everything would be distributed digitally. In gaming Steam only started in 2004. Consoles until then were just machines that played discs, with a few online features here and there.

This opened the opportunity to make money in ways other than "unit sales". That's why you hear so much about engagement. The more time people spend on those platforms, the more they are likely to spend money online.

Just like it happend with the PCs. The money is not on the hardware, but on the software.

Considering "unit sales" as the only metric for success is fanboy nonsense.

 

[Raitoningu]

Uh, Matt still posts on the other forum though.

Only when summoned by others, with the shitty mods banning anyone questioning his bullshit

The same for the other attention whore benji who knows nothing

The numbers will leak and will speak for themselves about this "Phenomenal" narrative anyway

 

[LittleBusters]

Unit sales obviously matter, but only if they are so meager as to mean software sales will never be meaningful. If there are close to 40 million XBones, that's already enough for huge engagement in terms of buying games, buying XBox Live Gold, elite controllers, Game Pass and other things.

 

[Afro Republican]

Only when summoned by others, with the shitty mods banning anyone questioning his bullshit

The same for the other attention whore benji who knows nothing

The numbers will leak and will speak for themselves about this "Phenomenal" narrative anyway

i thought benji was a leaker?

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

Toshiba is the number one selling television. Sony TVs must be worthless because they don't sell #1, or even in the top 5. Toyota is the #1 selling car brand. All others must be complete shit and Camarys are the best car ever made.

See how dumb this shit is. Just because PS sells more consoles does not devalue Xbox nor make PS the best console. Numbers don't mean shit.

 

[Clear]

Just like it happend with the PCs. The money is not on the hardware, but on the software.

Considering "unit sales" as the only metric for success is fanboy nonsense.

Software being the main profit center has always been the case on consoles, the entire premise is based on collecting licensing fees for every title sold on the system.

This is why unit sales of hardware are so critical, it indicates the upper bound on the number of software units sold on the hardware. Which indicates to developers and publishers whether or not they can justify the opportunity cost of making/porting games for the system, something that has major impications for how future growth of said platform. e.g. Vita.

 

[demigod]

That one was funny. A PC gamer, with a high end PC, playing a game like shit for fun. Is the game broken, so you are forced to play it at 30fps? It'd be the typical PC experience then.

So you were wrong and now calling me a liar, typical response.

 

[Jigsaah]

Ill just not reply from now on. Hows that.

Suit yourself. I'm starting a conversation. You reply with a "what are you on about" like you can't simply scroll up and re-read what I said. It's difficult to stutter when you're typing. In case you don't understand, I'm saying your compliments are sideways and disingenuous and this thread is hypocritical.

I don't think I can be any more clear.

 

[TLZ]

Just like it happend with the PCs. The money is not on the hardware, but on the software.

Considering "unit sales" as the only metric for success is fanboy nonsense.

Yes but, you're comparing Xbox and PCs. There are a billion PCs out there as opposed to Xboxs. So their reach do count and because of that of course they'll have a ton more software sales and engagement.

Toshiba is the number one selling television. Sony TVs must be worthless because they don't sell #1, or even in the top 5. Toyota is the #1 selling car brand. All others must be complete shit and Camarys are the best car ever made.

See how dumb this shit is. Just because PS sells more consoles does not devalue Xbox nor make PS the best console. Numbers don't mean shit.

I'm with you, but I'd end with of course numbers mean a lot, but it doesn't mean the others' numbers don't count. The target audience, pricing, services, etc are reasons where you're placed on the list.

 

[LostDonkey]

Suit yourself. I'm starting a conversation. You reply with a "what are you on about" like you can't simply scroll up and re-read what I said. It's difficult to stutter when you're typing. In case you don't understand, I'm saying your compliments are sideways and disingenuous and this thread is hypocritical.

I don't think I can be any more clear.

Ok ill bite.

Since youre being a jackass about all this do you want me to PM a mod who will confirm my PSN and XBOX live accounts. Both active for years until this very day. My Steam account? Maybe Origin? GOG? Uplay????

Theres no bias here son. I game on every platform and I game to have fun not to take sides. Whatever youre seeing is part of some fantasy you have created.

 

[Hendrick's]

Uh, this is from a guy at NPD. Not PR from MS.

Oh..this guy.

 

[Afro Republican]

Oh..this guy.

See, MS wouldn't do anything like this.

 

[Inviusx]

I want to buy an X for Sea of Thieves and the UHD but the price is still insane. I think the price drop will come once Sony/MS start announcing next get but by then I won't want drop cash on old hardware.

Weird spot to be in.

 

[Jigsaah]

Ok ill bite.

Since youre being a jackass about all this do you want me to PM a mod who will confirm my PSN and XBOX live accounts. Both active for years until this very day. My Steam account? Maybe Origin? GOG? Uplay????

Theres no bias here son. I game on every platform and I game to have fun not to take sides. Whatever youre seeing is part of some fantasy you have created.

First off, I'm not a jackass, I'm simply stating my stance. Secondly, the fact you think that gaming on every platform somehow inoculates you from bias is misguided at best, purposefully falsified at worst. You take your pick. I wouldn't care if you were gaming on a TurboGraphx 16. Your words are suspect.

My issue is specifically with you saying "Congratulations to Xbox. Who said power doesn't matter."

Am I to infer that this is a genuine and enthusiastic congratulatory comment? I don't think so. Its sideways and lets add condescending for good measure.

 

[VAL0R]

I want to buy an X for Sea of Thieves and the UHD but the price is still insane. I think the price drop will come once Sony/MS start announcing next get but by then I won't want drop cash on old hardware.

Weird spot to be in.

$400 is "insane"?

 

[Inviusx]

$400 is "insane"?

For basically 1 game until next gen, yeah.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Jesus guys. I really wish we could have Xbox threads without the constant console war shite, by the same people by the way (take note for once mods).
I really wish NeoGaf would introduce seperate Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo sub forums to go alongside the main forum, where people can discuss stuff without console war shite (make rules that any console war shite means a ban only in those sub forums).

I am beginning to think Neogaf actually supports it to some degree, it keeps the threads/site more active. There really is no other reason why it's so persisten and the regulars don't get banned. I'm just finding it all to be a waste of time so I'm just going to be less engaged until these people are gone.

 

[xStoyax]

I am beginning to think Neogaf actually supports it to some degree, it keeps the threads/site more active. There really is no other reason why it's so persisten and the regulars don't get banned. I'm just finding it all to be a waste of time so I'm just going to be less engaged until these people are gone.

I'm not gonna be active until you silence those I don't like to hear from.

You may find that ResetEra supports your philosophy better

 

[DigitalScrap]

I'm not gonna be active until you silence those I don't like to hear from.

You may find that ResetEra supports your philosophy better

You have to admit that it has gotten pretty ridiculous as of late, especially with what appears to be positive things happening on the MS (or Nintendo) side of things. Threads that could become real conversations quickly devolve into driveby shitposting and console war nonsense.

I've finally been forced to begin using the ignore user feature to try to help balance the signal to noise ratio.

 

[Gavon West]

Yes but, you're comparing Xbox and PCs. There are a billion PCs out there as opposed to Xboxs. So their reach do count and because of that of course they'll have a ton more software sales and engagement.


I'm with you, but I'd end with of course numbers mean a lot, but it doesn't mean the others' numbers don't count. The target audience, pricing, services, etc are reasons where you're placed on the list.

Numbers matter but not to gamers unless they're investors. If Microsoft sold 1 billion consoles in a year, that has NO EFFECT on how much someone enjoys their game. Not at all. You'd be inclined to think so reading boards like these though.

Hardware sales matter but they arent the end-all-be-all when it comes to how a corporation like Microsoft views them. It's simple economics really -- hardware is mostly a one time purchase. With one piece of software there are plethora of ways to make more money just off of one game sold. This is why (as mentioned 1 million times ago) player engagement has become so critical. The longer a gamer stays gaming and online, the better chances for them to make additional purchases. Services like GP is literally taking that idea and thinking outside the box - coming around full circle. and putting more focus on the initial software purchase you began with (or, maybe never did until GP had it on offer - which is bonus). It's genius.

Again, console warriors will rake MS over the coals for offering 1st party on PC, claiming its not a true exclusive. But they fail to see how much they actually benefit from having this feature, and how MS still makes money from doing so.

You get literally two copies of the same game for the price of one. If you buy on PC, you still get an Xbox version even if you dont have one. Someday you might, and you wont have to rebuy the game again. It'll be waiting in your download que - and vice versa. I mean, like.....seriously???? How is this a bad thing?

I have no idea, but Sony and PC fans like to spin it as one, which is pretty incredible in and of itself.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

I'm not gonna be active until you silence those I don't like to hear from.

You may find that ResetEra supports your philosophy better

They do and that is where I mostly go now, glad this site suits you better.

You have to admit that it has gotten pretty ridiculous as of late, especially with what appears to be positive things happening on the MS (or Nintendo) side of things. Threads that could become real conversations quickly devolve into driveby shitposting and console war nonsense.

I've finally been forced to begin using the ignore user feature to try to help balance the signal to noise ratio.

Sadly this is what it's become, kind of like trying to play random people online where you have to mute people every match.

 

[Pallas]

And Nintendo and Sony are right about that. They got exclusives games that define their console. While Xbox doesn't have exclusive anymore, I got everything on my PC. It's because of things like these that Xbox never won a generation of console and probably never will.

I don’t see how more options on how you play your games equates to being bad for consumers. This is the silliest thing to be bothered by.

Jesus guys. I really wish we could have Xbox threads without the constant console war shite, by the same people by the way (take note for once mods).
I really wish NeoGaf would introduce seperate Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo sub forums to go alongside the main forum, where people can discuss stuff without console war shite (make rules that any console war shite means a ban only in those sub forums).

Yeah this place really needs it, this shit has been in hyperdrive lately.

That's a lot of spinning to say the xbone is last, like always

The % bullshit PR isn't fooling anyone anymore

Didn't said that either, talking about the use of % in PRs, which means nothing

That NPD clown have been in some dumb war misleading people in resetera & twitter, he can't stand Sony selling more, so he try to paint everyone "winning"

He doesn't gives a shit about xbox, he is a nintendo drone so he hates Sony obviously, which means he'll support anyone against them, childish AF :/

That's why he posts on twitter now after people on the other forum showed his bias.

Someone doesn’t like Mat, but these set of posts remind me of people hating on Digital Foundry when the Xbox one X launched.

——

Current state of the mods /sarcasm

 

[dirthead]

All sounds good to me. PC gamers are cancer. Biggest group of stealing and cheating neck beards there is. Enjoy your Linux garbage then if you hate MS so much.

PC gamers, specifically gamers turned modders turned professional, made Metroid Prime and a lot of them ended working at Valve.

Doesn't sound like cancer to me.

 

[Three]

Two events happened in the 2000s that changed everything: broadband availability and digital distribution. Although the biggest company to push it first was Apple with iTunes, it was obvious back then that everything would be distributed digitally. In gaming Steam only started in 2004. Consoles until then were just machines that played discs, with a few online features here and there.

This opened the opportunity to make money in ways other than "unit sales". That's why you hear so much about engagement. The more time people spend on those platforms, the more they are likely to spend money online.

Just like it happend with the PCs. The money is not on the hardware, but on the software.

Considering "unit sales" as the only metric for success is fanboy nonsense.

Money was never in the hardware though. It was always in the software for consoles. Consoles were one of the few 'Loss leader' products out there. More so in the 90s contrary to what you say less so now. Now they aim to make money on hardware too and unit sales of hardware has become part of profits. All this is beside the point though.

Back to the original point. Think about it like this. You say the shift happened in the early 2000s, what is the early 2000s? 2008 early 2000s? are we talking decades or centuries ? This is why I asked what is the 2000s. Around 2008 time is actually when games that were releasing on PC became console exclusive. Gears 1 and Halo which both released on PC did not get their sequels on PC. It became console exclusive after that. This was 2008+. When the 360 started to do well. When you have the unit sales for a platform you have people in your walled garden. You prefer people to be in your walled garden for vendor lock in.

You mention apple but what you don't understand about apple is that they made that itunes and app store money off tremendous unit sales of iphone and ipod. Apple is not a 'software company' releasing on other platforms. They had a lot of hardware sales before they could make a great deal from the only store they make available on that hardware. This is the vendor lock in I mentioned. It is far from a 90s concept. It's here and now. MS do not have this privilege with PCs. PCs are open by nature no matter how hard they have tried to take back control and lock it down over the years by making it more and more like android and iOS. Make no mistake, vendor lock in has not gone anywhere. It is not a 90s concept.

 

[demigod]

I am beginning to think Neogaf actually supports it to some degree, it keeps the threads/site more active. There really is no other reason why it's so persisten and the regulars don't get banned. I'm just finding it all to be a waste of time so I'm just going to be less engaged until these people are gone.

You’ve said this months ago, not sure why you’re still here.

They do and that is where I mostly go now, glad this site suits you better

Good, enjoy your stay over there! Don’t cry when you get banned over there faster than here.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

You’ve said this months ago, not sure why you’re still here.



Good, enjoy your stay over there! Don’t cry when you get banned over there faster than here.

We all know why you enjoy this site and we also know why you're in this topic. I'm going to take the advice of someone else and see if it improves things, you are now on my ignore list. 1 down and about 46 to go.

 

[MaulerX]

Some of you guys acting as if MS hurts because you can play some of their games on PC. SMH.

That you chose to buy Forza Horizon 4 on PC means that they got your money anyway and that's all they care about. Xbox is not just a console, it's their gaming brand and you're supporting them just the same.

 

[Fitzchiv]

Microsoft will be pleased by X sales. They probably don't make a huge amount on each unit, once you consider the design costs, but they've bought something much more valuable with the console: credibility

With the X they've righted some wrongs in terms of hardware, but they've really bought a lead-in to the next generation. The XBX and gamepasss are PR goldust.

 

[LostDonkey]

First off, I'm not a jackass, I'm simply stating my stance. Secondly, the fact you think that gaming on every platform somehow inoculates you from bias is misguided at best, purposefully falsified at worst. You take your pick. I wouldn't care if you were gaming on a TurboGraphx 16. Your words are suspect.

My issue is specifically with you saying "Congratulations to Xbox. Who said power doesn't matter."

Am I to infer that this is a genuine and enthusiastic congratulatory comment? I don't think so. Its sideways and lets add condescending for good measure.

The fact that you have issue is hilarious and indeed makes you out to be a complete jackass.

Congrats to MS. Who said power doesnt matter.

As in, power does matter in some way as there is an obvious uptick in sales since they released the X.

Im done talking to you now as its obvious you have some agenda or complex and I dont want you hurting yourself.

 

[Keiji84]

I don’t see how more options on how you play your games equates to being bad for consumers. This is the silliest thing to be bothered by.

I never said it was bad for consumers. Actually I'm fine with Xbox games coming on PC : I don't need to own a Xbox.

 

[Kagey K]

I never said it was bad for consumers. Actually I'm fine with Xbox games coming on PC : I don't need to own a Xbox.

oooh you found the loophole.

Enjoy playing great games. Regardless of who publishes them. Isn’t that what this hobby is supposed to be about? Instead of everyone having fun, they are antagonizing each other and stressing each other out.

That is not the definition of game nor is it the one of fun, but to each their own, I guess.

 

[Keiji84]

oooh you found the loophole.

You can joking all you want, my sentence seems to annoys some people. I'm stating a fact. You don't need to answer it if you think it's irrelevant to the subject. I didn't see you answering to the guy who said PC gamers are cancer.

Enjoy playing great games. Regardless of who publishes them. Isn’t that what this hobby is supposed to be about?

I agree.

 

[Kagey K]

You can joking all you want, my sentence seems to annoys some people. I'm stating a fact. You don't need to answer it if you think it's irrelevant to the subject. I didn't see you answering to the guy who said PC gamers are cancer.



I agree.

It doesn’t annoy me at all. If you enjoy your PC all the power to you and I’m sure they are happy to have you on board.

I don’t think PCgamers are cancer at all, I didn’t see his post or it didn’t resonate with me.

The subject of this thread is XB1X is selling phenomenal (even if it’s not the market leader)

The premise is that even NPD analysts tweeted that the X is performing well above expectations.

The replies and such have been pretty much talking about everything except the fact that the X has outpaced many financial predictions.

Can we get back on track here or lock it up?

I’m not even sure when the last on topic post was.

 

[Keiji84]

It doesn’t annoy me at all. If you enjoy your PC all the power to you and I’m sure they are happy to have you on board.

I don’t think PCgamers are cancer at all, I didn’t see his post or it didn’t resonate with me.

The subject of this thread is XB1X is selling phenomenal (even if it’s not the market leader)

The premise is that even NPD analysts tweeted that the X is performing well above expectations.

The replies and such have been pretty much talking about everything except the fact that the X has outpaced many financial predictions.

Can we get back on track here or lock it up?

I’m not even sure when the last on topic post was.

No problem

 

[Hayfield]

Looks like the mid gen refresh experiment is paying off, I wonder if this means it'll be the norm for the next generation of consoles.

 

[Kagey K]

I hope not. I’d be happy with a standard and premium package from day one.

If I get a premium and they do refresh, I better be able to upgrade for essentially free.

These are the pitfalls for next gen I think.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Money was never in the hardware though. It was always in the software for consoles. Consoles were one of the few 'Loss leader' products out there. More so in the 90s contrary to what you say less so now. Now they aim to make money on hardware too and unit sales of hardware has become part of profits. All this is beside the point though.

Back to the original point. Think about it like this. You say the shift happened in the early 2000s, what is the early 2000s? 2008 early 2000s? are we talking decades or centuries ? This is why I asked what is the 2000s. Around 2008 time is actually when games that were releasing on PC became console exclusive. Gears 1 and Halo which both released on PC did not get their sequels on PC. It became console exclusive after that. This was 2008+. When the 360 started to do well. When you have the unit sales for a platform you have people in your walled garden. You prefer people to be in your walled garden for vendor lock in.

You mention apple but what you don't understand about apple is that they made that itunes and app store money off tremendous unit sales of iphone and ipod. Apple is not a 'software company' releasing on other platforms. They had a lot of hardware sales before they could make a great deal from the only store they make available on that hardware. This is the vendor lock in I mentioned. It is far from a 90s concept. It's here and now. MS do not have this privilege with PCs. PCs are open by nature no matter how hard they have tried to take back control and lock it down over the years by making it more and more like android and iOS. Make no mistake, vendor lock in has not gone anywhere. It is not a 90s concept.

The Xbox 360 happened. A system that was designed from the beginning to take advantage of the internet connectivity.

And it was the belief in the beginning of the PC business, that selling hardware was where the money was. Only after multiple companies started selling PCs, the consensus became that software is what made money.

 

[MilkyJoe]

This thread...

 

[LostDonkey]

This thread...

Ikr.

I just thought it was good to hear of the market respond so well to a greatly crafted console so late in the gen.

 

[Thiagosc777]

This thread...

I am kind of guilty for feeding this nonsense with responses. I appreciate the hands off approach neogaf mods have, where people are allowed to express different ideas, but sometimes I think they could help keeping threads from derailing completely.