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[plagiarize]

...during the vote where all you can hear is "NOOOOOOO"?

Mind linking yours?

I'd have to dig up the exact video again, but it had a lot of bad language in it. It was taken from near the front a bit to the left of the podium. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[HylianTom]

I love how the overall tone of some responses is "yeah, yeah.. violence is bad, but this is what you get when you mess with us." Hooligans.

...during the vote where all you can hear is "NOOOOOOO"?

Mind linking yours?

I think this primary season has well-established that loudness doesn't automatically translate to more votes. 😏

 

[boiled goose]

Oh, this is a pretty dishonest line here. In an entire other thread you had multiple people point out Bernie Sanders' "You're too smart not to vote for me" remark, so you damn well know he has heavily implied the people who did not back him were not intelligent enough.

And in that thread i did not agree with them.

Every side thinks their supporters are right.

Do Hillary supporters not think that young people are too naive and voting for Sanders is against their interests??

The accusations against Sanders himself on this forum are hypocritical and the definition of reaching. And im not even a bernie supporter!

I'd have to dig up the exact video again, but it had a lot of bad language in it. It was taken from near the front a bit to the left of the podium. I'll see if I can find it.

There were definitely audible insults in the video. Some name calling sounds like it's Coming from female voices too.

See, we can be honest about all the problems at the disastrous convenient.

Was the crowd agitated and rowdy? Yes...
Were the voice votes complete bullshit? Yes..

 

[balladofwindfishes]

This is exactly why I think running the convention in such a disastrous way is very silly.

Then again, people watch the same video I did and don't say anything wrong.

Unbelievable..

Could it be from the POV of the video, that the voice vote sounds different than it does for the person counting the vote?

 

[B-Dubs]

Could it be from the POV of the video, that the voice vote sounds different than it does for the person counting the vote?

No! That makes too much sense to be true!

Seriously, this thread is sad.

 

[boiled goose]

Could it be from the POV of the video, that the voice vote sounds different than it does for the person counting the vote?

So you think it's possible that the voice vote was clear? I can't...

Uh.... no.

I'm glad you don't personally feel that way...

 

[SamVimes]

I love how the overall tone of some responses is "yeah, yeah.. violence is bad, but this is what you get when you mess with us." Hooligans.

Sounds like another thread from yesterday

 

[Orbis Tabula]

This is one of those cases where I feel like, even if they have a point or a legitimate grievance, it really is a waste of time at this point. There's been doxxing and threats of violence, and its all over whether Sanders loses by 250 delegates, or by 253.

 

[Melkezadek]

So you think it's possible that the voice vote was clear? I can't...

"You don't agree with me? Unbelievable!"

Always gets reduced to this.

 

[Pizoxuat]

This isn't the first time Bernie supporters have used gamergate tactics, remember the campaign to call and harass superdelegates that ended up with a lot of death and rape threats? It may be the most visible, though. I was excited for Bernie to pull the party left, but through his own actions (not campaigning for down ticket dems, going negative, persecution complex) and the gross coalition of supporters th at have gravitated him because they hate a woman and the government, I feel like his campaign has been a terrible mistake.

 

[Aaronology]

And in that thread i did not agree with them.

Every side thinks their supporters are right.

Do Hillary supporters not think that young people are too naive and voting for Sanders is against their interests??

The accusations against Sanders himself on this forum are hypocritical and the definition of reaching. And im not even a bernie supporter!

What's to disagree with, Goose? Reality? Bernie Sanders' campaign has in fact brought into question the intelligence of people who do not support the man. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. You are aware of that remark, so why are you attempting to claim his campaign has not done this when they clearly have?

 

[boiled goose]

This is one of those cases where I feel like, even if they have a point or a legitimate grievance, it really is a waste of time at this point. There's been doxxing and threats of violence, and its all over whether Sanders loses by 250 delegates, or by 253.

I agree threats and harassment are completely unacceptable and pointless.

What's to disagree with, Goose? Reality? Bernie Sanders' campaign has in fact brought into question the intelligence of people who do not support the man. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. You are aware of that remark, so why are you attempting to claim his campaign has not done this when they clearly have?

Praising your supporters for being smart is not the same thing as implying the supporters of Your opponent are dumb.

It's as if a commencement speaker went to mit and told the students they made a smart choice to come to mit. Then speaker gets accused of calling all other students stupid.

I just simply dont agree with the accusation.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

So you think it's possible that the voice vote was clear? I can't...

Sure, because I don't immediately think the DNC is out to to specifically harm Bernie supporters for no reason at all.

 

[plagiarize]

There were definitely audible insults in the video. Some name calling sounds like it's Coming from female voices too.

See, we can be honest about all the problems at the disastrous convenient.

Was the crowd agitated and rowdy? Yes...
Were the voice votes complete bullshit? Yes..

The only thing I personally will hang around Sander's neck is that he doesn't do enough to criticize the toxic group that have latched onto his campaign and that are giving all Sanders supporters a bad name.

Do I think that after a day of anger, insults, and so on, that a bullshit measure was forced through to bring things to a close? Yes I do. Attempts to hijack the convention were not dealt with in the appropriate fashion, imho.

Do I think that the results themselves are valid? Yes I do.

 

[QuantumZebra]

BUT THE ELECTION WAS STOLENNNNN!!!!!

I'm so sick of Bernie bots refusing to accept reality and creating this alternate universe where Bernie is being disenfranchised and Shillary is stealing the election. She has over 2 million more votes than Bernie, she's going to be the nominee, it's over, stop being such sore losers.

but conspiracy and hillary is a lizard and

Spoiler

im so fucking sick of this election... just put Hillary in office and lets go already

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Hi Roberta Lange. This is a citizen of the United States of America and I just wanted to let you know that I think people like you should be hung in a public execution to show this world that we won’t stand for this sort of corruption. I don’t know what kind of money they are paying to you, but I don’t know how you sleep at night. You are a sick, twisted piece of shit and I hope you burn for this! You can return my call at ______. I’d love to go into further detail with you about this, though I am sure you don’t have courage to do so. You cowardless bitch, running off the stage! I hope people find you.

Holy shit....

 

[BajiBoxer]

I don't think Bernie necessarily wanted this to happen, but it's a pretty inevitable result when you tell your supporters for months that everyone who opposes you is a corrupt shill trying to rig the results.

Kind of easy to do when faced with corrupt shills. Bernie hardly had to say a word.

 

[Oddish1]

lol what

She asks for "ayes" and the guy behind her even mouths "c'mon!!!" to encourage the audience to speak louder because they're not voicing loud enough. She stands facing the audience waiting for the voice vote to end.

She asks for those opposed, shifts her weight uncomfortably before stepping away from the podium, speaks amongst people onstage, then stutters out a rebuttal to the voice vote: "The ruling by the chair is not debatable; we cannot be challenged
and I move that the er... and I announce that the rules have passed by the body."

There are other videos of the voice vote on YouTube from various locations in the room, saying "oh the one video I looked at was from Bernie's side so I ignored it" and then still coming to your own conclusion is just silly.

So I know you intended this to be some super obvious silver bullet that shames me for even thinking that she could not be lying, and maybe it would be if she leapt back from the full force of the Sanders 'nays', hands to mouth, eyes wide open in shock in terror from the full force of democracy on display...

But, shifting your weight and stuttering while speaking in front of a large audience isn't exactly uncommon. Especially when someone has likely been standing and speaking for hours.

Also, I'm not entirely sure where you're going with the whispering thing. I figured that she was just confirming with them what they heard from the voice vote. And I don't really have a problem with that.

My comment with the video was that I saw it was treated as the undeniable proof that Sanders delegates were robbed and I found it pretty easy to deny. Clearly I was in error, but I had hoped that if that was the case then my comment would provoke someone to offer a better video. Since you sound like you have them in abundance, then feel free to share.

 

[Maxim726X]

Is this real life?

He's 100% right.

At this point, it's ego driven. He has no path, but still persists.

 

[Arkeband]

No! That makes too much sense to be true!

Seriously, this thread is sad.

Again, there are POV's from the other side of the room and it's still louder.

 

[dramatis]

Yes. And they changed the rules to voice votes with losing voice vote for some reason. The whole thing was a Fucking mess.

I agree they are useless. When an important vote is unclear you have to do a roll call....

I hope we can all agree that at the very least the vote wasn't clear and a roll call should have been done.....

If every voice vote is disputed to be unclear then every voice vote would be turned into a roll call. The point of having the chair call voice votes is to avoid exactly that situation. The losing side will dispute continuously and there would be no end to it.

If the voice vote is unclear, and perpetual vote count is going to drag out the process and waste the delegates' time, then the logic points towards using the one important roll call count they did, for delegates. Hillary's side has majority in the roll call count, therefore the Hillary side will win.

Again, there are POV's from the other side of the room and it's still louder.

Link a video for proof, from the other side of the room.

 

[boiled goose]

Sure, because I don't immediately think the DNC is out to to specifically harm Bernie supporters for no reason at all.

Harm is a strawman.

Is there bias? I do think there is. Not in a conspiracy! Kind of way, but a system of networks and incentives that lead people in power in the dnc to favor Clinton.

To me watching the voice vote videos it is pretty apparent that the chair wanted a certain outcome and got that outcome in the end...

 

[gutter_trash]

there is a simple solution to all of this:
1) replace all caucuses with primaries.
2) make them all closed to registered Dems only.

there, if independents want their own Presidential candidate, they can go make their own party.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Harm is a strawman.

Is there bias? I do think there is. Not in a conspiracy! Kind of way, but a system of networks and incentives that lead people in power in the dnc to favor Clinton.

To me watching the voice vote videos it is pretty apparent that the chair wanted a certain outcome and got that outcome in the end...

That outcome was the outcome the voters in NV wanted...

Bernie supporters complaining that they were unable to disenfranchise voters.

The media is having a field day today with Bernie. Violent, spoiled, whiny losers. That's the narrative right now. Good job Bernie, you earned it.

 

[Blader]

Praising your supporters for being smart is not the same thing as implying the supporters of Your opponent are dumb.

So what, then, is the implication behind Bernie's reason for losing among black voters when he and his staff say "they just don't understand his message yet"? That black people are just hard of hearing?

 

[boiled goose]

That outcome was the outcome the voters in NV wanted...

Bernie supporters complaining that they were unable to disenfranchise voters.

I agree that outcome was in the end representative of the intial caucus... but you cant fudge the process to get their.

The rules are stupid i agree, but you cant run a convention like that. The democratic party is better than this.

So what, then, is the implication behind Bernie's reason for losing among black voters when he and his staff say "they just don't understand his message yet"? That black people are just hard of hearing?

There are many reasons. My personal opinions are irrelevant.

Why did Hillary lose the young vote? The Muslim American vote?

Sanders and his staff of course think he would be a better President for African Americans than Clinton. You want them to say, yeah Clinton is better for African Americans? They have to say stuff like our message did not reach them, or wasn't communicated well enough, etc.

Do you honestly believe that Bernie Sanders, the most progressive senator who has fought for the powerless his whole career and got into politics fighting segregation believes what you are implying???

We are off topic so let's just say we really disagree here.

 

[Cheebo]

Harm is a strawman.

Is there bias? I do think there is. Not in a conspiracy! Kind of way, but a system of networks and incentives that lead people in power in the dnc to favor Clinton.

To me watching the voice vote videos it is pretty apparent that the chair wanted a certain outcome and got that outcome in the end...

She wanted an outcome that matched the will of the voters (Hillary won Nevada, fair and square)...that is a problem?

You have to admit Sanders fans insistence they deserve to win and the system is rigged despite the fact they are 2-3 million behind in pure popular vote totals ignoring any of the delegate nonsense is downright absurd yes?

The primary voters rejected Sanders. Not the DNC.

 

[Adaren]

Glad NV is doing something about this shitshow. Hopefully it prevents things from escalating further.

 

[BajiBoxer]

there is a simple solution to all of this:
1) replace all caucuses with primaries.
2) make them all closed to registered Dems only.

there, if independents want their own Presidential candidate, they can go make their own party.

I think I might support this if it's possible to register simply by choosing to vote in one primary or the other. I've had my party affiliation changed without my knowledge before.

 

[Cheebo]

I think I might support this if it's possible to register simply by choosing to vote in one primary or the other. I've had my party affiliation changed without my knowledge before.

Just voting in one primary over the other would mean basically isn't a closed primary.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

there is a simple solution to all of this:
1) replace all caucuses with primaries.
2) make them all closed to registered Dems only.

there, if independents want their own Presidential candidate, they can go make their own party.

I'd agree with that, with the addition of making it easy for independents to register for the party close to the day of voting.

 

[7DollarHagane]

These Sanders extremists sounds a lot like gamer gate activists... Very similar tactics and language.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Oh, this is a pretty dishonest line here. In an entire other thread you had multiple people point out Bernie Sanders' "You're too smart not to vote for me" remark, so you damn well know he has heavily implied the people who did not back him were not intelligent enough.

LOL, no he didn't.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Just voting in one primary over the other would mean basically isn't a closed primary.

So? What's the problem?

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I agree threats and harassment are completely unacceptable and pointless.

I know you do. And for what it's worth, I agree that the Bernie Bro name is more often than not pretty harmful to the goal of having serious discussions, and I wish people would use it less.

 

[Suikoguy]

I know you do. And for what it's worth, I agree that the Bernie Bro name is more often than not pretty harmful to the goal of having serious discussions, and I wish people would use it less.

Eh, they are just, as the Sanders campaign put it:

Michael Briggs, a Sanders campaign spokesman, said, "We do not condone violence or encourage violence or even threats of violence." He added that the campaign "had no role in encouraging the activity that the party is complaining about. We have a First Amendment and respect the rights of the people to make their voices heard."

Which, btw has been the extent of the condemnation from the Sanders campaign.

 

[Cheebo]

These Sanders extremists sounds a lot like gamer gate activists... Very similar tactics and language.

If you enjoy watching self-proclaimed liberals go on anti-SJW rants you'll enjoy the Sanders subreddit page.

 

[Aaronology]

I agree threats and harassment are completely unacceptable and pointless.



Praising your supporters for being smart is not the same thing as implying the supporters of Your opponent are dumb.

It's as if a commencement speaker went to mit and told the students they made a smart choice to come to mit. Then speaker gets accused of calling all other students stupid.

I just simply dont agree with the accusation.

"You're too smart not to vote for me" heavily insinuates the people not voting for him are not smart enough to know to. Bernie Sanders didn't simply praise his supporters, he praised their actions in direct comparison to the actions of voters who did not vote for him that night in another state. Stop pretending that comment was made in a vacuum with no subtext, Goose. He brought into question the intelligence of (primarily black) people who weren't supporting him. No one here is having trouble parsing that comment or reading between the lines except you.

Edit:

LOL, no he didn't.

LOL, yes he did.

 

[boiled goose]

She wanted an outcome that matched the will of the voters (Hillary won Nevada, fair and square)...that is a problem?

You have to admit Sanders fans insistence they deserve to win and the system is rigged despite the fact they are 2-3 million behind in pure popular vote totals ignoring any of the delegate nonsense is downright absurd yes?

The primary voters rejected Sanders. Not the DNC.

The process is multi tiered and stupid. Yes.
I don't agree with means justify the ends. Proper procedure has to be followed at each step.

Bernie lost county caucus? Sucks for bernie
Hillary lost state caucus because her delegates didn't show up? Sucks for Hillary
Bernie lost delegates because they changed their registration? Sucks for Bernie

Chair holds bullshit voice votes to get a specific outcome? Now i have a problem...

 

[Cheebo]

So? What's the problem?

If anything this primary season independents in primaries (the Trump independent supporters in the GOP and Bernie independent supporters in the Dem side) have made the whole primary season a big fun highly entertaining mess.

Come 2020 and 2024 both sides are clearly going to be make it far less common for non-affiliated party members to take part in the primary process. It's pretty clear that is where things are headed.

 

[flkraven]

Literally every day there is some 'corruption' preventing Sanders voters from doing something. Even when they have 3 million fewer votes and seemingly no chance of catching up, the illuminati somehow manages to take away 1 or 2 more delegates.

 

[Oddish1]

Harm is a strawman.

Is there bias? I do think there is. Not in a conspiracy! Kind of way, but a system of networks and incentives that lead people in power in the dnc to favor Clinton.

To me watching the voice vote videos it is pretty apparent that the chair wanted a certain outcome and got that outcome in the end...

I do kind of agree with you. I think the DNC is biased in favor of Clinton, and not in a conspiracy way, but in the small subtle ways that's not obvious if it actually has an effect on this election or not. I don't think it does, but I can't think of a way to prove to disprove it.

In this particular case though I find it hard to take the Sanders delegates complaints about how undemocratic and unfair this was seriously because I think all caucuses are undemocratic and unfair, and I think this particular Nevada caucus was undemocratic and unfair, and I think the follow up convention where Sanders supporters netted more delegates for Bernie even though he lost Nevada was undemocratic and unfair too.

And so, when Bernie supporters point and complain at how the voice vote was undemocratic and unfair, well, that ship has already sailed. If we're interested in making the Nevada caucus vote fair, it's kind of too late.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I love the "threats are bad buuuuuuuuuut" tone of this thread.

 

[Suikoguy]

I love the "threats are bad buuuuuuuuuut" tone of this thread.

Is it all that surprising when the Campaign basically has the same tone?

 

[LiquidSolid]

That is not was I was talking about. I was talking about the rule changes which did happen that allowed authoritarian judgement calls to be made at the meeting without a vote, which many people at the meeting didn't think was allowed/possible.

I'm not defending the Bernie supporters here or trying to say that it was stolen or any of that, so please do not try to push that narrative onto me. I'm simply saying that people were so outraged because they were surprised, and that surprise could have been prevented by either not changing the rules in this way, or having much better communication about both the necessary requirements and what powers (due to the rule changes) will be in play at the meeting to outright dismiss people if they fail to get their credentials squared away.

I don't see what's so controversial about saying that when you surprise people by swinging power they didn't know you were given to bind options they thought they still had then they're going to be outraged and think you stole something from them.

From what I've read and understand, they didn't pass any rule changes, they just confirmed their current rules, which is why they didn't need a 2/3 vote to pass them. Bernie's supporters were the ones who were calling for rule changes, which would've needed a 2/3 vote to pass. There was obviously a lot of confusion but that doesn't even come close to justifying the embarrassing tantrums those supporters threw because they didn't get their way.

Honestly, I kinda figured this was going to happen when Bernie wouldn't back off from his attacks on Hillary. Dude's doing more harm than good at this point, and not just to Hillary, to the entire left. This sort of shit is not what you want people remembering when "Bernie 2.0" pops up.

 

[boiled goose]

I do kind of agree with you. I think the DNC is biased in favor of Clinton, and not in a conspiracy way, but in the small subtle ways that's not obvious if it actually has an effect on this election or not. I don't think it does, but I can't think of a way to prove to disprove it.

In this particular case though I find it hard to take the Sanders delegates complaints about how undemocratic and unfair this was seriously because I think all caucuses are undemocratic and unfair, and I think this particular Nevada caucus was undemocratic and unfair, and I think the follow up convention where Sanders supporters netted more delegates for Bernie even though he lost Nevada was undemocratic and unfair too.

And so, when Bernie supporters point and complain at how the voice vote was undemocratic and unfair, well, that ship has already sailed. If we're interested in making the Nevada caucus vote fair, it's kind of too late.

See. This is a fair and honest post. I agree with almost everything here. Thanks...

The one slight disagreement is that I see a difference between undemocratic and unfair caucus rules and outright calling voicevotes unfairly.

I do agree that at this point it's irrelevant. Doesn't make it acceptable.

 

[Arkeband]

Come 2020 and 2024 both sides are clearly going to be make it far less common for non-affiliated party members to take part in the primary process. It's pretty clear that is where things are headed.

And this should be seen as a problem, when it's pretty clear that both parties are nearly split in half, meaning that the "base" represents fewer and fewer of their own registered voters as time passes.

A few posts in this thread have already insinuated that those not aligned with either party should just somehow prop up an independent candidate, as if that's at all realistic or feasible with the current system we have.

 

[Adaren]

And of course /r/s4p thinks that the threats came from Hillary trolls to make them look bad. Everything's a conspiracy!

It's a shame that the forum that used to be the main hub for Sanders supporters became so fanatical and crazy. If you aren't on board with every evidenceless conspiracy theory, you get called a $hillary troll and driven out of there.

My sympathies to all the reasonable Sanders supporters out there. Heck, I even kind of like many aspects of the guy, but it's so hard to separate him from his vocal supporters...

 

[BajiBoxer]

If anything this primary season (The Trump independent supporters in the GOP and Bernie independent supporters in the Dem side) just fuck things up.

Come 2020 and 2024 both sides are clearly going to be make it far less common for non-affiliated party members to take part in the primary process. It's pretty clear that is where things are headed.

I'm just saying if I'm denied my ability to vote in the primaries due to some clerical error, I'm not voting Democratic at all. From my own perspective, I don't see why I should be willing to risk losing my vote.

 

[Koomaster]

Watching videos and reading articles about this I think we can all come to the conclusion that caucuses are a disaster. So convoluted to keep meeting several times for a process that takes half a day or more. Weighing delegates for each side. Voice votes which are subject to opinion. This versus a primary where people go, they vote, they go home. Like why would anyone want to go through the hassle of a caucus. They can't be that much of money savers especially when chaos like this happens.

Anyway, these fanatical Bernard supporters are an embarrassment. I sort of figured this division would happen when he started gaining any traction. Just a complete tea party style division forming of crybabies who don't understand what they are even crying about. There is no consoling them either which is even worse. Bernard just needs to drop out now, it's over and he's done nothing positive by staying in and is just going to keep hurting the party. Not that I think he actually cares and may even enjoy the chaos since it's been a few days and he's yet to condemn the actions that have taken place at the NV caucus.

Honestly Bernard just needs to lose his senate seat at this point. Show future 'progressives' that you can't turn the Democratic party into chaos at your own ego's whims.