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[Netherscourge]

Sanders needs to come right out and condemn any sort of violence or threats against his opponents and reprimand his voters.

Otherwise, he's going to look like a Liberal Trump.

 

[dramatis]

No, my evidence comes from reviewing over 6 hours of footage on periscope, much of which I saw LIVE as it was happening. What you see in my previous post is merely a summary of the evidence.

You'll need to do better in contesting the evidence than a flat out refusal to consider it. You can start by actually reviewing the footage.

Here's a start

The footage you can't link properly, and view with a Sanders bias.

I can just as easily say the convention was 16 hours long, so 6 hours is not a complete timeline. The playlist you linked has a rough estimate of 7 hours of footage, on the Sanders side by Sanders supporters, with a possible overlap in time, so it's unclear without viewing exactly how much of the convention was actually recorded. It's also likely that as Sanders supporters, they can film the parts favorable to his side and not capture those that are unfavorable. In one of the videos while the speaker up front is talking everyone around is chattering and making it difficult to hear him even though he was on loudspeaker. Who would know what was happening at the dais other than by hearsay?

There's also not much of a contradiction with what the NSDP said, because from a helpful comment in the longest video, an hour into the convention the Sanders people were already being disruptive. How is the committee at the front supposed to conduct the normal affairs and process if they were constantly harassed the whole day?

The explosive situation arose in large part because a portion of the community of Sanders delegates arrived at the Nevada Democratic State Convention believing itself to be a vanguard intent upon sparking a street-fight rather than attending an orderly political party process. Surprised and outraged at the idea of being out-organized and thus outnumbered in the convention hall by Clinton delegates, a portion of the Sanders delegation rushed the dais immediately upon the opening of the convention and halted the progress of any convention business for much of the day. Indeed, every point during which Sanders delegates did not agree with any aspect of the proceedings saw them press up against the dais and scream obscenities and threats at the Chair, First Vice Chair, and any other speaker. In fact, event security provided by the Paris Las Vegas Hotel & Casino took it upon themselves to increase the security perimeter around the dais so the convention could simply move forward with its routine business in relative safety. In other words, the hour-to-hour business of Nevada Democrats was necessarily conducted in an atmosphere of impending eruption of physical threats and intimidation for more than 12 hours. Scuffles, screams from bullhorns, and profane insults marked nearly the entirety of the event. Numerous medical emergencies among delegates pressed up against the dais had to be attended to throughout the day

The offenders do not get to protest that the NSDP didn't conduct the convention correctly when the offenders themselves were the reason the convention could not be conducted well.

 

[kitschykitty]

Sanders has also never called for the end of caucuses for obvious reasons. Which speaks about his true integrity.

I was going to say the same thing about Sanders and caucuses, watch his most recent Rachel Maddow interview where she asks him about them and he gushes about how amazing they are.

 

[Blader]

You seem misinformed Sander's plan is to do away with the caucuses and have the Democratic party open to independents instead of trying to actively block them from participating in the process.

Not only has he never said that, why would he ever? He has benefited overwhelmingly from caucuses.

 

[brainchild]

But the convention starts at 9am, and not 10am.

10am is the deadline for registration - which is a courtesy for people who couldn't get there in a timely fashion. 9am is when the convention happens, as stated in that document. What rule changes occurred in the convention after it started at 9am? Were those rule changes against anything in that document? If they were, or if those rule changes occurred before 9am, that would definitely be messed up. But if they were voted on by people who were registered and seated at 9am when the convention started, I'm not sure what the problem is short of it being painful/sucky for the losing side.

Weren't there more delegates for the Sanders group anyway (since they won in February), something like 2300? How come 700 people didn't show up to vote for him that Saturday? If they turned out more of their delegates, this wouldn't be a problem either. I think the Hillary group got most of their guys organized to show up (16xx out of 1700-ish)...

Some of the rule changes were fundamental to the process as a whole, like using a voice vote for all motions and allowing the party chair to unilaterally confirm changes without the possibility to be challenged.

Of course, the Sanders delegates opposed, but that didn't stop the rules from becoming permanent and effectively subverting the democratic process at the convention.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Eh, they are just, as the Sanders campaign put it:



Which, btw has been the extent of the condemnation from the Sanders campaign.

Even better they also said that it would behoove Clinton to be more welcoming of his supporters.

So it was basically violence is bad but we're investigating fraud and my supporters are just so enthusiastic also Clinton you might want to be nicer to them...

 

[ersocaster]

I'd agree with that, with the addition of making it easy for independents to register for the party close to the day of voting.

I knew the primary was coming to PA over a month in advance. Even then, I had until nearly a week and a half before the primary to register. I changed my affiliation from independent to Democrat to vote for Bernie. But I am perfectly fine voting for Hilary this November.

Changing your party is easy. You can do it online and they mail you your card. It took 5 minutes. There is no excuse.

 

[Omegasquash]

That was a pretty typical Bernie response. Hopefully he keeps walking away right the fuck out of the primary he has clearly lost.

He threatened to leave last year at Netroots when Black Lives Matter interrupted him and Martin O'Malley.

 

[B-Dubs]

Some of the rule changes were fundamental to the process as a whole, like using a voice vote for all motions and allowing the party chair to unilaterally confirm changes without the possibility to be challenged.

Of course, the Sanders delegates opposed, but that didn't stop the rules from becoming permanent and effectively subverting the democratic process at the convention.

Well, there were fewer Sanders delegates than Clinton delegates so they lost. That tends to be how voting works.

 

[Parshias7]

Some of the rule changes were fundamental to the process as a whole, like using a voice vote for all motions and allowing the party chair to unilaterally confirm changes without the possibility to be challenged.

Of course, the Sanders delegates opposed, but that didn't stop the rules from becoming permanent and effectively subverting the democratic process at the convention.

So then were all of the Sanders delegates late and all of the Clinton delegates early?

 

[Mike M]

In most other places there is no concept of a closed primary to start with. Nominees tend to be picked by people actually active in the party rather than just people with a membership card. That's not how it works here. All that matters in a closed primary here is having signed up for that party regardless of if you even know what the party and candidates stand for.

So either pick a party to join and exercise your choice between their candidates, or wait until the general election. Again, why should you have any say at all in the selection process of a party you don't belong to?

 

[legacyzero]

There's only one side advocating for massive suppression of voters, and it's the man calling for Super Delegates to override the will of the people, and for state delegates to override how their state voted and support him because some random polls said he might beat Trump a bit more than Hillary, who is also polling as beating Trump.

Sanders has also never called for the end of caucuses for obvious reasons. Which speaks about his true integrity.

"Will of the people"

Lol ok. Clearly, the SDs are following the will of the people, when they've already pleadged their vote before the game even began. So thats laughable.

What happened in Nevada is a complete shit show. So we'll see what happens in the GE. People keep under-estimating Trump, and the GE season hasnt even rightly started yet.

And Hillary has a lot of work to do to win over Bernie's supporters once she gets the nom, and all she's done is insult them. And calling out Bernie for "integrity" (lol) is a complete joke straw-man, when its obvious who CLEARLY has bigger issues with integrity.

So either pick a party to join and exercise your choice between their candidates, or wait until the general election. Again, why should you have any say at all in the selection process of a party you don't belong to?

Heaven forbid somebody change their mind and potentially vote for a better candidate because your party option is Trump.

Thats a good thing, IMO. Its absolute bullshit not allowing everybody the option to vote for whoever the fuck they want.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Give me a specific example of Hillary insulting Bernie supporters. I want receipts.

 

[jack_package_200]

"Threats and violence are bad but" comments are fucking vile. There is no excuse for the actions taken by Sanders supporters in Nevada.

Its baffling that some people switched the registration immediately back to independent after voting in the primary. Are people so attached to the idea of being independent?

June 7th will be fun when Bern loses California and New Jersey. I expect there will be a lot of tantrums.

Give me a specific example of Hillary insulting Bernie supporters. I want receipts.

I want to see this too.

 

[inner-G]

And calling out Bernie for "integrity" (lol) is a complete joke straw-man, when its obvious who CLEARLY has bigger issues with integrity.

Yeah, definitely not helping her in the likability department

Its baffling that some people switched the registration immediately back to independent after voting in the primary. Are people so attached to the idea of being independent?

Yes.

The writing is on the wall for the two-party system. The younger generation sees hardcore party affiliation as a liability (and for good reason)

 

[Adaren]

We can cite both sides for a lack of hard evidence, but I'm inclined to believe the NV Democratic statement just because no one has contradicted it yet. It has unambiguous and detailed descriptions of what happened, including the reports of medical emergencies and the actions of Adam Gillette. If there's factual inaccuracies, then they they've put themselves in a position to get called out for it.

If someone on the opposing side comes up with a similar "official stance" that clearly lays out what they think happened and why the NV Dem's report is inaccurate, then there's a debate to be had. Until then, only one side has put their money where their mouth is and actually committed to a narrative of what the situation was like.

If there's something inaccurate in the NV Dem statement, then they should get called out for it. If they don't, I'll continue to believe them just because it's the only jointly-written report of what happened that we have.

Give me a specific example of Hillary insulting Bernie supporters. I want receipts.

Beat me to it!

 

[plagiarize]

Some of the rule changes were fundamental to the process as a whole, like using a voice vote for all motions and allowing the party chair to unilaterally confirm changes without the possibility to be challenged.

Of course, the Sanders delegates opposed, but that didn't stop the rules from becoming permanent and effectively subverting the democratic process at the convention.

The Sanders delegates were trying to subvert the democratic process themselves. So they got slapped down. By a vote. They then screamed and hurled insults at regular intervals when their repeated attempts to reverse such heinous acts as blocking delegates who were no longer part of the party from entering and their cries and insults all fell on deaf ears. It's weird how people you insult stop listening to you.

Sanders lost. They refused to accept it, and so they got gaveled. Maybe unfairly and not within the appropriate rules.

But my sympathies for them?

Zilch.

 

[B-Dubs]

Yes.

The writing is on the wall for the two-party system. The younger generation sees hardcore party affiliation as a liability (and for good reason)

How is the writing on the wall? You're going to need to explain a bit more than that.

 

[Parshias7]

Hillary supporters are so awful on this forum! How could I ever support her?

These are just some random Bernie guys. We should certainly not let this reflect poorly on his campaign.

 

[brainchild]

Ok, but again, the picture you linked isn't a timing issue. It's unfortunate, but if they cut off registration at 2pm I don't think it would have helped her.

What is the rule change that resulted in people being unable to register?

It is a timing issue because a hearing is required for delegates that wish to appeal a rejection. At that time, she would have been able to prove her credentials and secure a seat so that she could participate in the vote to change the rules.

The footage you can't link properly, and view with a Sanders bias.

I can just as easily say the convention was 16 hours long, so 6 hours is not a complete timeline. The playlist you linked has a rough estimate of 7 hours of footage, on the Sanders side by Sanders supporters, with a possible overlap in time, so it's unclear without viewing exactly how much of the convention was actually recorded. It's also likely that as Sanders supporters, they can film the parts favorable to his side and not capture those that are unfavorable. In one of the videos while the speaker up front is talking everyone around is chattering and making it difficult to hear him even though he was on loudspeaker. Who would know what was happening at the dais other than by hearsay?

There's also not much of a contradiction with what the NSDP said, because from a helpful comment in the longest video, an hour into the convention the Sanders people were already being disruptive. How is the committee at the front supposed to conduct the normal affairs and process if they were constantly harassed the whole day?

The offenders do not get to protest that the NSDP didn't conduct the convention correctly when the offenders themselves were the reason the convention could not be conducted well.

The footage I have provided you with is relevant to the actual times where the body convened as a whole to do their jobs. It does not include the excessive amount of time spent on stalling the process.

However, it is clear to me that you would rather believe what you want to believe than review the evidence in earnest, so I will not continue to waste my time arguing with you about this.

 

[Blader]

Hillary has been extremely sensitive to Bernie supporters, reportedly even in private. Saying that Hillary has been openly insulting Bernie supporters is such laughable bullshit that I'm sure legacyzero will never respond to any of this.

 

[Irnbru]

The cinders of a failed campaign seem to burn hottest at the end. At least it's entertaining to watch how lifeless and limp rhetoric can really motivate people if it sounds nice.

 

[Melkezadek]

Hillary supporters are so awful on this forum! How could I ever support her?

These are just some random Bernie guys. We should certainly not let this reflect poorly on his campaign.

A lot of irony here.

EDIT: My sarcasm detectors are weeeeak.

 

[The Technomancer]

A lot of irony here.

Pretty sure its sarcasm

 

[plagiarize]

Hillary supporters are so awful on this forum! How could I ever support her?

These are just some random Bernie guys. We should certainly not let this reflect poorly on his campaign.

The twitter stuff and voicemail stuff only reflects on his campaign as much as he refuses to condemn it.

The convention stuff that was done by his delegates? Why shouldn't that reflect poorly on his campaign. These are literally the people representing him.

 

[Armaros]

Yeah, definitely not helping her in the likability department


Yes.

The writing is on the wall for the two-party system. The younger generation sees hardcore party affiliation as a liability (and for good reason)

Someone doesnt understand first-past-the-post voting if they believe the two party system is going away in the US

 

[pigeon]

http://action.nvdems.com/page/-/2016_Digital/2016 STATE CONVENTION CALL.pdf

Here. Sorry I'm on mobile.

It says every delegate in line at 10am is registered, which I think happened.

I don't have the pamphlet, but here's the deadline for submission of candidacy for the convention:




http://nvdems.com/caucus/caucus-to-convention/

Thanks, this is very helpful.

So really quick:

I should also state that I would be totally fine with a change of rules during the convention to allow the delegate count to reflect the popular vote of the original caucus, so long as that decision is made by at least a 2/3's majority of the body (per the original rules for temporary changes). Considering how shitty the caucus process is, a change to reflect the popular vote seems totally fair and appropriate to me.

I think that this is a misreading of the rules. Take a look at VII. c. and d. The first adoption of permanent rules is a majority vote. Only after that is a supermajority required. So if the permanent rules contain changes relative to the temporary rules when they're first offered only a majority vote is necessary to adopt those changes.

The timeline is basically like this:

* Convention is called to order under the temporary rules.
* Chair hears a motion to adopt permanent rules (with some changes) under VII.c. That motion succeeds by a majority vote and the permanent rules are adopted.
* Convention is now proceeding under the permanent rules, including changes. Amending the permanent rules requires a supermajority under VII.d.

No rules violation required. Note that the rules also don't guarantee that the convention will wait for every delegate to be seated before holding votes. That's, again, pretty standard for a parliamentary system. You're supposed to be in the chamber in order to cast votes!

I'm kind of getting the impression that the majority of the complaints in that post stem from a misunderstanding of the rules. For example, note that Robert's Rules of Order don't require the chair to recognize any motions. Just because you stand up and say "I move xx thing" does not actually entitle your motion to a debate and vote. So all the complaints about how people's motions weren't recognized and voted on are, like, fundamentally Hollywood understandings of parliamentary procedure. If the chair doesn't want to hear your motion they just won't, that is pretty much why being the chair is so important.

If you want to debate on whether that was CORRECT that's a separate topic (although I think already a much-belabored one), but I am not sure yet I see any evidence that the rules were VIOLATED.

 

[plagiarize]

It is a timing issue because a hearing is required for delegates that wish to appeal a rejection. At that time, she would have been able to prove her credentials and secure a seat so that she could participate in the vote to change the rules.



The footage I have provided you with is relevant to the actual times where the body convened as a whole to do their jobs. It does not include the excessive amount of time spent on stalling the process.

However, it is clear to me that you would rather believe what you want to believe than review the evidence in earnest, so I will not continue to waste my time arguing with you about this.

You're saying the stage wasn't stormed. That people didn't push against the dias... and your evidence *can't* prove this, unless it covers the stage for the entirety of the convention. Which it doesn't.

 

[StoOgE]

So Bernie voters are Ron Paul supporters.

Makes sense.

Join the Democratic Party if you want to attend the Democratic State Convention.

K Thx

Also, buy a copy of Robert's Rules of Order before you go. I have one from the 08 convention. If you want to try and gamify something to steal 2-3 delegates, at least read the rules first.

 

[Smokey_Run]

Democratic Tea Party. I'd hope the Democratic Party would be smart enough to end this shit before it spirals out of control like it did for the Republicans. People laugh and shrug it off until it becomes too big to ignore and eliminate.

 

[inner-G]

How is the writing on the wall? You're going to need to explain a bit more than that.

The amount of younger people that identify as independent is drastically higher than previous generations.

As the entrenched older people die off, a higher and higher percentage of voters will see party affiliation as a negative

http://reason.com/blog/2014/03/07/millennials-very-politically-independent

 

[Blader]

Democratic Tea Party. I'd hope the Democratic Party would be smart enough to end this shit before it spirals out of control like it did for the Republicans. People laugh and shrug it off until it becomes too big to ignore and eliminate.

The tea party has the backing of megadonors like the Kochs. These people do not.

 

[jack_package_200]

The writing is on the wall for the two-party system. The younger generation sees hardcore party affiliation as a liability (and for good reason)

Except anyone who isn't delusional knows that a third party/independent candidate for president is not remotely viable in this country.

For someone to win the GE, they need to hit the magic number of 270. If none of the candidates win, congress votes on should be the next president meaning who ever controls congress (democrats or republicans) would pick the next president.

You simply can't oust the two party system without a violent change in government or society.

 

[NeuAscension]

It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Sanders supporters are gamergaters.

shit post

 

[Smokey_Run]

The tea party has the backing of megadonors like the Kochs. These people do not.

But did they at the start as well?

 

[inner-G]

You simply can't oust the two party system without a violent change in government or society.

Immediately? No

 

[StoOgE]

The amount of younger people that identify as independent is drastically higher than previous generations.

As the entrenched older people die off, a higher and higher percentage of voters will see party affiliation as a negative

http://reason.com/blog/2014/03/07/millennials-very-politically-independent

Except that the young people will turn into old people and mellow out and become normal humans that don't see the world so dogmatically.

 

[Mike M]

Heaven forbid somebody change their mind and potentially vote for a better candidate because your party option is Trump.

So vote against him in the primary. Vote for someone else in the general.

Thats a good thing, IMO. Its absolute bullshit not allowing everybody the option to vote for whoever the fuck they want.

People are allowed to vote for whoever they want into office. That's not what a primary is. Want to participate in a party's selection process? Join the fucking party. Don't like your options? Better luck next election.

A political party is a private association that decides their own methods of selecting a candidate to put forward in the general election. You are not entitled to participation in their affairs. This is not a difficult concept.

 

[Irnbru]

Democratic Tea Party. I'd hope the Democratic Party would be smart enough to end this shit before it spirals out of control like it did for the Republicans. People laugh and shrug it off until it becomes too big to ignore and eliminate.

Nah, the tea party actually succeeded. Giving them the name of tea party would be like they actually accomplished something of value. But the thought mechanics of the tea party are there. Editors note: this does not mean I condone the tea party, they are horrible and should be deemed as such.

 

[Cipherr]

I have no problem with the bolded. I do have a problem the state party's conduct. If the DNC behaves similarly at the national convention, the Democratic party can kiss the election goodbye. They cannot win without the majority of Sanders supporters, and Sanders supporters will most certainly not back a party that would violate their own rules on the national level.

Keep on thinking that. Will make the reality train that much harder to swallow.

Uh no, the Sanders plan is to intimidate enough super-delegates into supporting him to overcome Clinton's pledged delegate lead:

http://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/State-s-Democratic-superdelegates-feel-heat-7348068.php

Mmmhmm. And its not happening, and at the convention it will be hilarious to see her rightfully landslide the Supers. Then they can spend the next few months pretending the irrational ones among them are a large enough contingent of voters to swing an election.

Keep on poking out your chest pretending you are bigger than you really are, ain't gonna change the facts on the ground.

 

[Volimar]

Hillary supporters are so awful on this forum! How could I ever support her?

These are just some random Bernie guys. We should certainly not let this reflect poorly on his campaign.

Yeah but some of them were scrambling to become delegates, literally trying to represent him. It absolutely reflects poorly on his campaign the longer he doesn't come out and denounce it in no uncertain terms with no "but" qualifiers.

 

[HK-47]

The amount of younger people that identify as independent is drastically higher than previous generations.

As the entrenched older people die off, a higher and higher percentage of voters will see party affiliation as a negative

http://reason.com/blog/2014/03/07/millennials-very-politically-independent

lol most independents are anything but.

 

[Smokey_Run]

Nah, the tea party actually succeeded. Giving them the name of tea party would be like they actually accomplished something of value. But the thought mechanics of the tea party are there. Editors note: this does not mean I condone the tea party, they are horrible and should be deemed as such.

I think you're missing my point. You need to end stuff like this before it gets to that point. Someone will come along and try to take advantage of this group just like they did in the Republican party.

 

[brainchild]

Well, there were fewer Sanders delegates than Clinton delegates so they lost. That tends to be how voting works.

There were fewer Sanders delegates because some of them were unable to participate. Had they been able to participate, they would've held a majority. Furthermore, you need a 2/3's majority to change the rules, which obviously was not the case, given the delegate split between both sides.

So then were all of the Sanders delegates late and all of the Clinton delegates early?

Not necessarily. A 2/3's majority is required to change the rules. Only 64 Sanders delegates were excluded from the process. In either scenario, the new rules shouldn't have passed.

The Sanders delegates were trying to subvert the democratic process themselves. So they got slapped down. By a vote. They then screamed and hurled insults at regular intervals when their repeated attempts to reverse such heinous acts as blocking delegates who were no longer part of the party from entering and their cries and insults all fell on deaf ears. It's weird how people you insult stop listening to you.

Sanders lost. They refused to accept it, and so they got gaveled. Maybe unfairly and not within the appropriate rules.

But my sympathies for them?

Zilch.

The vote was a complete farce to begin with.

 

[Adaren]

I'm kind of getting the impression that the majority of the complaints in that post stem from a misunderstanding of the rules. For example, note that Robert's Rules of Order don't require the chair to recognize any motions. Just because you stand up and say "I move xx thing" does not actually entitle your motion to a debate and vote. So all the complaints about how people's motions weren't recognized and voted on are, like, fundamentally Hollywood understandings of parliamentary procedure. If the chair doesn't want to hear your motion they just won't, that is pretty much why being the chair is so important.

If you want to debate on whether that was CORRECT that's a separate topic (although I think already a much-belabored one), but I am not sure yet I see any evidence that the rules were VIOLATED.

Given the committee's impression of the situation (as is clear from their report), I'm not surprised that they didn't want to spend longer than necessary entertaining every motion that might be brought up. And, if the report's depiction of the delegate denial process / Adam Gillette's actions is accurate, then I'm not surprised that they didn't want to spend time discussing, possibly further riling people up.

idk if they broke any rules, but I don't think it's there fault that they didn't want to spend more time in there than necessary.

 

[HylianTom]

So Bernie voters are Ron Paul supporters.

Makes sense.

Join the Democratic Party if you want to attend the Democratic State Convention.

K Thx

Also, buy a copy of Robert's Rules of Order before you go. I have one from the 08 convention. If you want to try and gamify something to steal 2-3 delegates, at least read the rules first.

From the videos and the screaming, it looks like Pee Wee's Rules of Order were in effect for many in attendance.

Today's secret word is FRAUD

AAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!

 

[Veritigo_X]

Voter suppression that makes it difficult for people to get involved in politics via the primary process - ensures loads of people continue to be disenfranchised and fail to show up in their local elections.

I don't think it's too much to ask to have voters be registered to a political party in order to participate in that party's nomination process. That being said it should be easy to register for the party. NY's registration deadline was way too early for example.

 

[jack_package_200]

Woof. Its all about ethics in games journ-...primary voting

Yeah this shit needs to be reigned in.

 

[kess]

The amount of younger people that identify as independent is drastically higher than previous generations.

As the entrenched older people die off, a higher and higher percentage of voters will see party affiliation as a negative

http://reason.com/blog/2014/03/07/millennials-very-politically-independent

If Sanders is running under the (D) ticket, then getting people to register as Democratic voters to vote for him is kind of the point, unless he is trying to subvert the process himself.

 

[hammysaurusrex]

Random reminder that Clinton currently has the plurality of non-super delegates and a greater portion of the popular vote.

But feel free to keep explaining how Bernie is the obvious 'Will of the People' because reasons.