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[Speevy]

Yeah that Sixaxis really took off. The explosion of development for it was catastrophic.

No Xmote, not gonna happen. EVER

 

[Eteric Rice]

No Xmote, not gonna happen. EVER

I think you're delusional if you don't think it's going to happen.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I don't get this though. If that's the future you're speaking of, it's *already here*. It's *been* here for years. That it's a pretty good implementation of that concept doesn't change that.

Oh please. There has been no game where you could make a level with zero skills, publish it, and share it with your friends in a quick and easy, accessible, Youtubeesque turn around time like LBP. You're talking out of your ass.

edit: Most importantly it's not just about "levels." In LBP the levels you make are very strongly able to completely change the fundamental gameplay of the game. You can't say the same about the Farcry 2 level editor for example.

 

[Speevy]

I don't get this though. If that's the future you're speaking of, it's *already here*. It's *been* here for years. That it's a pretty good implementation of that concept doesn't change that.

No, we're not there YET, because consoles aren't there yet.


I'm really trying not to insult PC gaming, but you're making it very difficult.

Console gaming isn't there yet. Console gaming has been driving the industry for this entire decade. Therefore, things done to enhance console gaming are the future of the industry. Motion controls. Co-op. Whatever. Doesn't matter how long ago the PC did it.

 

[Mr.Potato Head]

Really? It wasn't a bad game but I had more fun with Mocap Boxing in the arcade than any of those Wii Sports mini-games.

By the way, when exactlly did Mocop Boxing from Konami hit the arcades and when did the wii come out? .... hmm... people just overlook the little things, You know the wii is a great system but people praise nintendo like they are GODS when they do ALOT of rehashing,etc and some of their idea's ..they ripped

 

[onipex]

Okay, examples of games which were even half as successful as Wii Sports in breaking away the cluttered gameplay mechanics and offering accessibility for the whole family.

And of course, not from Nintendo, since we're talking about influence.

Does that music game count?

 

[Speevy]

I think you're delusional if you don't think it's going to happen.

I'm not delusional. When the next Xbox happens, the controller won't look anything like the Wiimote. Bet on it.

 

[yoopoo]

Oh please. There has been no game where you could make a level with zero skills, publish it, and share it with your friends in a quick and easy, accessible, Youtubeesque turn around time like LBP. You're talking out of your ass.

Pariah's map editor is what you're looking for - on Xbox.

 

[Speevy]

Does that music game count?

Wii Music? Not only is it Nintendo so it's pretty hard to influence yourself, but the game is apparently not that good. So no.


I truly believe half this forum thinks Wii Sports was showered with acclaim upon its release.

 

[Speevy]

Pariah's map editor is what you're looking for - on Xbox.

Nope. Sorry. Not Far Cry either. Sorry, not even close.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Wii Sports is a good one to bring up. There are multiple ways in which you could interpret your statement that it's the most important game of this generation. If you mean that it's important in that it's introducing new gamers and lapsed gamers to gaming then I think you're only partially correct, since the DS and games like Nintendogs, Brain Age and more have done huge amounts toward that effort even before Wii Sports was released. If you mean the waggle controllers and the new way that people are interacting with games, then yes that is influential but I think in the far long term I think people will look back on it as somewhat of an evolutionary dead end, and not as remarkable as the social gaming experience.

You can almost see evidence of it already where there have been a small handful of games that have really used the motion controls to grand effect, but a whole lot of them (even from Nintendo) that have simply used motion as an alternate way to control the same old gameplay. I think in contrast the social gaming experience that is hinted at by games like LBP will have a much, much larger effect on video game evolution.

Folks that are whining that LBP is not influential because of a lack of copycats are being absolutely silly. The game only just came out. Look for copycats within the next year or so. I guarantee they'll be there.

I think Wii Sports has been important in a numbers of ways. Firstly, it was the first game to demonstrate (and prove) motion controls as an alternative input method.

Moreover, it was the console-equivilent of Brain-Age, Nintendogs, etc in the sense that it's drawn millions to gaming who otherwise would refuse to pick up a controller. It's also given a positive, active face to gaming, where before gaming was looked down upon and the stereotypical image of the industry was a bunch of nerds, huddled on chairs, sitting in dark rooms.

And furthermore, it's the founder of simplified, casual experience on Wii (and as we're starting to see, other consoles as well) like Wii Fit, Boom Blox, You're In the Movies, etc, many of which are games that GAF detests but the wider population appears to love.

Combined, I think it makes a pretty hefty case for the game. I really don't want to make the impression that I'm discrediting LBP's genius, and I do think it will influence a number of games in the future in terms of community and sharing.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I think we can remove the "Junior" and "in training" from Speevy's tag now.

 

[Speevy]

I think we can remove the "Junior" and "in training" from Speevy's tag now.

You are like the 8 billionth person to say that, and it has nothing to do with why I'm defending LittleBigPlanet.

As for actual sales of the PS3, they're awful. I chimed in on an ongoing LBP discussion.

 

[ViperVisor]

Never before has a console game offered the flexibility of a PC-strength level editor with the ability to swap and trade freely with a nation

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3113304&p=2

Spoiler

Tony Hawk's Underground. Came out 5 years to the day before LBP. Spooky.

 

[jman2050]

Oh please. There has been no game where you could make a level with zero skills, publish it, and share it with your friends in a quick and easy, accessible, Youtubeesque turn around time like LBP. You're talking out of your ass.

Haven't I already acknowledged that? I just don't think it's as much of an innovation as you make it out to be. Doesn't mean I don't think more games shouldn't do that.

edit: Most importantly it's not just about "levels." In LBP the levels you make are very strongly able to completely change the fundamental gameplay of the game. You can't say the same about the Farcry 2 level editor for example.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this because it's so completely wrong. One of LBP's greatest strengths is how focused it is. It's a 2D platformer with realistic physics, it knows it's a 2D platformer with realistic physics, and every single creation tool in the game is designed under the assumption that you're playing a 2D platformer with realistic physics. There is nothing wrong with this, and I wish that more creation tools forgoed the do-everything model in favor of playing to the strengths of the foundation of the game itself.

No, we're not there YET, because consoles aren't there yet.


I'm really trying not to insult PC gaming, but you're making it very difficult.

Console gaming isn't there yet. Console gaming has been driving the industry for this entire decade. Therefore, things done to enhance console gaming are the future of the industry. Motion controls. Co-op. Whatever. Doesn't matter how long ago the PC did it.

This argument is over then, cause we're just gonna go in circles from here. Agree to disagree.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Okay, let me ask you a question.

Would it be fair to offer these as the premises behind each of the two games' greatest strengths?

-Wii Sports: Accessible, fun, the entire family can play whether they've ever touched a game or not, motion controls are perfectly suited to the actions of the sports, for many this is the only tennis/bowling/baseball game they will ever play, and that's saying something.

-LittleBigPlanet: Play, create, share. Takes a genre of gaming (doesn't matter which) and offers players the chance to start creating and interpret that genre in their own unique way, share it. Shareable, user-created content, online co-operative gameplay.


Tell me how LBP DOESN'T sound like the future of where games are going, even if no developer ever makes another platformer.

The problem with your reasoning is that you are assuming LBP is going to take off.

It could be the hottest thing since Jesus, effectively being the spark that begins the GAME 2.0 phenomenon you speak so much about. It could also sink to the depths of the Marianas and be remembered as a cult favourite, if lucky enough.

The success of LBP is the one thing that will determine if it's influential or not. If the concept is sound financially, publishers will start commissioning more games in that vein. Right now, there's not enough data to say whether this will happen or not. It's not that I don't believe it has the potential for directing the future of gaming, but that it's still too early to call it out.

 

[MisterHero]

but Wii Sports IS influential. It's probably the most influential game since Super Mario 64, for better or for worse.

WiiSports is a $250 game that comes with a console that +30 million people own.

it parallels the success of NES and Super Mario Bros., or GameBoy and Tetris

It's really amazing. :lol

I think brainage has a bigger influence than WiiSports.

To be honest I think the craze (not beginning) of "minigame"-style games started with Warioware. With its think-fast gameplay and positive critical reception Nintendo probably decided to refine it for something the formula could really be useful for (and of course was Brain Age's concept to promote sharper thinking).

Tell me how LBP DOESN'T sound like the future of where games are going, even if no developer ever makes another platformer.

Probably because LBP's core concept has been available as cruder incarnations such as PC game modding, Flash games, or even programming from scratch.

I won't knock LBP (because I do find it intriguing) but it's more of a vast refinement for what's been available for a long time, even on consoles. The people that use these capabilities the most are the ones who will know what they are doing and not the average player.

Now this is more of a tangent than a real point, but the Tony Hawk series in its prime (arguably 4 and Underground) would let players design everything from Player Characters, to Skate Parks, to Game Modes (like HORSE/COMBO), to Trick Animations, to decks, stickers, etc... heck, even wrestling games have evolved plenty of ways for players to customize their game, because it further lets gamers attach themselves to the game.

Of course they weren't as deep or integrated as LBP, but the concept has been touched on before.

 

[Speevy]

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3113304&p=2

Spoiler

Tony Hawk's Undergroung

Nope.

The create-a-golfer feature in Tiger Woods doesn't work either.

Have any of the folks citing these examples played LBP or are you just being cute?

 

[yoopoo]

Nope. Sorry. Not Far Cry either. Sorry, not even close.

Wrong, I have proved you and Tiktaalik wrong by pointing out Pariah's easy to use map editor, which requires zero skill, allows you to share content with friends quickly and easily.

Time to accept the fact, admit defeat and move on. Make it so.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I think Wii Sports has been important in a numbers of ways. Firstly, it was the first game to demonstrate (and prove) motion controls as an alternative input method.

Moreover, it was the console-equivilent of Brain-Age, Nintendogs, etc in the sense that it's drawn millions to gaming who otherwise would refuse to pick up a controller. It's also given a positive, active face to gaming, where before gaming was looked down upon and the stereotypical image of the industry was a bunch of nerds, huddled on chairs, sitting in dark rooms.

And furthermore, it's the founder of simplified, casual experience on Wii (and as we're starting to see, other consoles as well) like Wii Fit, Boom Blox, You're In the Movies, etc, many of which are games that GAF detests but the wider population appears to love.

Combined, I think it makes a pretty hefty case for the game. I really don't want to make the impression that I'm discrediting LBP's genius, and I do think it will influence a number of games in the future in terms of community and sharing.

I agree with you absolutely, although I still think the casual boom was inevitable even without the Wii, given the popularity of the DS and the growing popularity of the casual PC space (of course we'll never know).

My point, that LBP will in the long term end up being more influential is at the moment impossible to prove. My gut feeling for it is that already LBP has had a greater impact on the people that matter, that is developers. Developers have already shown their apathy toward the Wii as shown by the strong reluctance of top tier developers to develop for the platform. I think from the development community there has been a huge amount of excitement about LBP. The next few years should be interesting to see whether high profile developers latch onto the concepts that LBP explores.

 

[jman2050]

I can't believe I'm forcing myself to talk disparagingly about a game I adore. Something is wrong with me here.

 

[schuelma]

My point, that LBP will in the long term end up being more influential is at the moment impossible to prove. My gut feeling for it is that already LBP has had a greater impact on the people that matter, that is developers. Developers have already shown their apathy toward the Wii as shown by the strong reluctance of top tier developers to develop for the platform. I think from the development community there has been a huge amount of excitement about LBP. The next few years should be interesting to see whether high profile developers latch onto the concepts that LBP explores.

Solid point.

 

[Speevy]

The problem with your reasoning is that you are assuming LBP is going to take off.

It could be the hottest thing since Jesus, effectively being the spark that begins the GAME 2.0 phenomenon you speak so much about. It could also sink to the depths of the Marianas and be remembered as a cult favourite, if lucky enough.

The success of LBP is the one thing that will determine if it's influential or not. If the concept is sound financially, publishers will start commissioning more games in that vein. Right now, there's not enough data to say whether this will happen or not. It's not that I don't believe it has the potential for directing the future of gaming, but that it's still too early to call it out.

Do you not see LBP, the whole idea behind what it's doing, as something that we'll see again and again in the future of gaming?

If LBP bombs and Media Molecule closes, do you not STLL believe shareable, user-created, online co-op/competitive gameplay will drive the future of our consoles?

Platformers are niche. The online content hub is not. It's where everything is heading to, LBP got there first.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Haven't I already acknowledged that? I just don't think it's as much of an innovation as you make it out to be. Doesn't mean I don't think more games shouldn't do that.

I find it amazing that someone doesn't think social features are the next big thing. Do you not use Facebook? Do you communicate with your friends via email mailing list?

Well anyway I've re-iterated the same statement several times over... At this point we just really have to wait until the next batch of games, and as well for Media Molecule's next project, to see what the future holds.

 

[Speevy]

Probably because LBP's core concept has been available as cruder incarnations such as PC game modding, Flash games, or even programming from scratch.

.

And it STILL doesn't matter, because no one cares.

To give you an idea of what I mean, consider that PC developers will be re-introducing the very basics of these creation concepts to consoles for years to come.

Console and handheld, not PC gaming, drives the industry. Things introduced to console gaming are brand new, no matter how long ago PC gaming did them.

Tony Hawk's create-a-park lets you change the way you skate, but you still have to skate. Do you see how this lack of freedom limits it compared to LBP?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

And it STILL doesn't matter, because no one cares.

And it's pretty obvious that very few care about-


you know what i'm not gonna say it

 

[Regulus Tera]

Do you not see LBP, the whole idea behind what it's doing, as something that we'll see again and again in the future of gaming?

I do believe this will happen, but not necessarily LBP being the one leading this wave.

If LBP bombs and Media Molecule closes, do you not STLL believe shareable, user-created, online co-op/competitive gameplay will drive the future of our consoles?

If that's the case, LBP won't be the one regarded as the game that sparked the revolution, but rather the one that suceeded at implementing the formula. It's like saying Street Fighter II wasn't influential because Karate Champ* already had two-player fighting.

*I may be mistaking Karate Champ for another arcade game that featured versus fighting.

 

[Speevy]

And it's pretty obvious that very few care about-


you know what i'm not gonna say it

Well, people in the industry noticed.

 

[gregor7777]

Look, if you'd just promise to praise LBP publicly at least twice a day and acknowledge it is in fact the greatest accomplishment of mankind, they'll stop.

It's such a good game yet seemingly doesn't get the respect it deserves that it drives people fucking batty.

They'll just say the craziest shit. Good at first for the lulz, but after the 20th Speevy post it just starts to bog down an otherwise spirited Wii bashing thread. Focus people. Let's get back on point.

Where's some crazy ass Wii software sales chart to get us going? Maybe some Deer Hunter pics or some shit, I don't know.

 

[Speevy]

Look, if you'd just promise to praise LBP publicly at least twice a day and acknowledge it is in fact the greatest accomplishment of mankind, they'll stop.

It's such a good game yet seemingly doesn't get the respect it deserves that it drives people fucking batty.

They'll just say the craziest shit. Good at first for the lulz, but after the 20th Speevy post it just starts to bog down an otherwise spirited Wii bashing thread. Focus people. Let's get back on point.

Where's some crazy ass Wii software sales chart to get us going? Maybe some Deer Hunter pics or some shit, I don't know.

I didn't start the LBP discussion, champ.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Tell me how LBP DOESN'T sound like the future of where games are going, even if no developer ever makes another platformer.

Where games as a whole are going? I wouldn't argue that more games will se this type of philosophy, with the users creating the atmosphere for people to express their creativity.

What's in dispute here is that LBP is the catalyst. We've seen elements like this in gaming for years, particularly on the PC, and they've still amounted to a niche.

Now I can see the argument that LBP could potentially take this philosophy and deliver it to the masses, but to argue that it will do this despite barely moving any kit for Sony in its debut month (Yes I know 4 days, blah blah) while being strapped to what is being accounted as a run of the mill platformer, you have a recipe for, well, a game that isn't going to do as well as the die-hard PS3 supporters insist.

 

[gregor7777]

I didn't start the LBP discussion, champ.

I don't recall saying you did, slugger.

 

[Speevy]

what is being accounted as a run of the mill platformer.

Who said this? The 95% of Gamerankings or the dozens of GOTY awards it's going to win?

 

[Speevy]

I don't recall saying you did, slugger.

Fine, killer.

 

[SapientWolf]

By the way, when exactlly did Mocop Boxing from Konami hit the arcades and when did the wii come out? .... hmm... people just overlook the little things, You know the wii is a great system but people praise nintendo like they are GODS when they do ALOT of rehashing,etc and some of their idea's ..they ripped

Mocap Boxing came out in 2001. Sometimes the timing, the way you market an idea and how you package it is more important than the idea itself.

 

[onipex]

Wii Music? Not only is it Nintendo so it's pretty hard to influence yourself, but the game is apparently not that good. So no.


I truly believe half this forum thinks Wii Sports was showered with acclaim upon its release.

No I meant guitar hero. It's something the whole family can enjoy and is half as popular as WiiSports.

 

[Speevy]

No I meant guitar hero. It's something the whole family can enjoy and is half as popular as WiiSports.

Does the Wii version of Guitar Hero revolutionize the formula of Guitar Hero?

I haven't played it.

 

[MisterHero]

And it STILL doesn't matter, because no one cares.

To give you an idea of what I mean, consider that PC developers will be re-introducing the very basics of these creation concepts to consoles for years to come.

Console and handheld, not PC gaming, drives the industry. Things introduced to console gaming are brand new, no matter how long ago PC gaming did them.

Tony Hawk's create-a-park lets you change the way you skate, but you still have to skate. Do you see how this lack of freedom limits it compared to LBP?

I'm pretty sure the 2 mentioned Tony Hawk games sold really well, and the series itself had its share of rip-offs and challengers, though more in the way that it was an extreme sports game. I said it wasn't as flexible as LBP, but they were on the way there. Yes, you could customize your stats, controls, tricks and sometimes even the animations, so yeah it could change how you skate.

I didn't say PC gaming specifically. I said the CONCEPT/ABILITY to mod/create content for your own games has been there for awhile and putting the same concept into the average gamer's hands might be challenging for its appeal.

Console games are developed on PC, and it's only natural that most of the forms of content creation mentioned are through PC.

I realize that we can't really talk about this until LBP has had awhile to try and get attention and I'm discussing this now becuase it's interesting. I'm just saying the potential of content creation will be a hard sell, though it won't stop people from buying/enjoying the game as is.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Who said this? The 95% of Gamerankings or the dozens of GOTY awards it's going to win?

So we're doing this now? I find it funny you can argue that the people have claimed LBP revolutionary and then dismiss the influence of Wii Sports in the same breath where by the standards set forth here, Wii Sports is already a smashing success.

 

[Speevy]

So we're doing this now? I find it funny you can argue that the people have claimed LBP revolutionary and then dismiss the influence of Wii Sports in the same breath where by the standards set forth here, Wii Sports is already a smashing success.

Yes, we're doing this, because no one has called LBP "run of the mill" aside from some Neogaf forumers.

Again, Wii Sports was called a content-light C+ game by most outlets.

 

[onipex]

Does the Wii version of Guitar Hero revolutionize the formula of Guitar Hero?

I haven't played it.

Why would it need to?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Yes, we're doing this, because no one has called LBP "run of the mill" aside from some Neogaf forumers.

Again, Wii Sports was called a content-light C+ game by most outlets.

And Gamespot, and IGN, and 1up (reading all these reviews goes the same Way: "The game itself has some issues with control and focus, but man can you customize and customize") The LBP reviews are a referendum on experimentation in games; Every bit of praise i've read about LBP has everything to do with the creation and very little to do with the core platforming game. Does this sound run of the mill to me? Yes it does.

As for your GOTY comments, didn't GTA4 get those same comments? But of course only the negative focus for Wii Sports sticks. Gotcha.

 

[Speevy]

Why would it need to?

Because the original context of the discussion concerned how the casual accessibility of Wii Sports has influenced other games, and since (as you probably know) Guitar Hero predates Wii Sports, I was wondering how it's relevant. So I asked you.

 

[Speevy]

And Gamespot, and IGN, and 1up (reading all these reviews goes the same Way: "The game itself has some issues with control and focus, but man can you customize and customize") Every bit of praise i've read about LBP has everything to do with the creation and very little to do with the core platforming game. Does this sound run of the mill to me? Yes it does.

Games with average core gameplay don't get rated in the high 9s.

 

[_Alkaline_]

I agree with you absolutely, although I still think the casual boom was inevitable even without the Wii, given the popularity of the DS and the growing popularity of the casual PC space (of course we'll never know).

My point, that LBP will in the long term end up being more influential is at the moment impossible to prove. My gut feeling for it is that already LBP has had a greater impact on the people that matter, that is developers. Developers have already shown their apathy toward the Wii as shown by the strong reluctance of top tier developers to develop for the platform. I think from the development community there has been a huge amount of excitement about LBP. The next few years should be interesting to see whether high profile developers latch onto the concepts that LBP explores.

Now this is something I can agree with.

 

[IronicallyTwisted]

Console and handheld, not PC gaming, drives the industry. Things introduced to console gaming are brand new, no matter how long ago PC gaming did them.

And its funny how console gaming now latches on to a genre thats superior on the PC. Console gaming is doing now what PC gaming did years ago, just because thats new to some couch potato too stupid to get PC games running, doesn't change where the innovation began.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Games with average core gameplay don't get rated in the high 9s.

Yeah, you're right.

 

[BishopLamont]

Jesus Christ Amir0x, your views on the Mario games are so narrow minded. Mario Kart Wii is a racer, SMG is a 3D platformer, SSBB is a beat em up, Mario Party is minigames, Mario Sluggers is a baseball game, Mario Strikers Charged is a soccer game, Wario Land is a 2D platformer. See the pattern? They all use Mario because he helps to sell game and these games have the history and sales to back it up. Nintendo knew they couldn't rely on third parties to move the Wii, so they banked on what's historically has sold well. It's easy to say "yeah but it's just sequel", but who the fuck doesn't make sequels? Why are you singling out Nintendo when the rest of the industry would wet their pants to have all these "same Mario games". If it irks you that much why not just play SSBB, MK, MP, MS:C and never pick Mario, what you're left with is just the name Mario on the title.

Let's move on to new IP's now, You got Wii Play, Wii Fit, Wii Sports, Wii Music, again they share the Wii brand because it's a success but they all serve a different purpose. Then you have those recently announced new IP's, Cosmic Walker, Dynamic Slash, Line Attack Heroes etc etc.

I don't get how you can change your stance on the Wii's library as often as a hooker gets banged up.

 

[Jammy]

Because the original context of the discussion concerned how the casual accessibility of Wii Sports has influenced other games, and since (as you probably know) Guitar Hero predates Wii Sports, I was wondering how it's relevant. So I asked you.

Guitar Hero is pretty damn influential itself, too. It's owned and loved by millions of people, and it's probably single-handedly invigorated interest in the music/rhythm genre. We wouldn't have Rock Band, Rock Revolution, all of those shitty knock-offs, etc. without it.

Now the music genre is getting kind of tired. But so are the party and FPS genres...

I'd love for LBP to be so influential that platformers become tired in the next year or two.

 

[dammitmattt]

Did everyone forget this was an NPD thread? I don't see any sales talk going on anymore...