The God of Nonexistence
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The pronunciation is the same either way.
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OK nerds, you win. Song of Ice and Fire is gud.
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evilromero
Member
I am personally really enjoying the slow setup in AFFC. There's still that tension that always permeates from chapter to chapter. Can't wait to crack open ADWD.
Is it? I've always wondered how Jaime is pronounced in English. For me it was kinda fun to read the name Jaime in the books, because my father and my brother are both named Jaime. It's a really common name where I'm from and it's pronounced completely different to the english pronunciaton of Jamie.
Probaly why I always missed it. I watched a couple of episodes of season 1 before I began reading the series, so I just assumed his name was spelled Jamie when I first heard his name in the show.
not in spanish, heh
I finally managed to resume reading AFFC and I magically suddenly managed to actually like it and become engrossed in it, even
.
Maybe these few months of break were what I needed.
Overall, I'm liking the setup and wonder what's going to happen soon. And a random thought after about ~70% through the book.
down to Brienne chapters which were a scourge of mine and set me several months back
Maybe these few months of break were what I needed.
Overall, I'm liking the setup and wonder what's going to happen soon. And a random thought after about ~70% through the book.
Cersei lesbian scene holy hell what
pr0cs
Member
capons!
And the Feast is done. It took a while, but finally I'm here, on the ADWD side of the series.
About the book, it's definitely a strange beast. I think what turns people off the most is the first half of it which is grueling. The thing moves hellishly slow, the narrative is spread too thinly between all the plotlines and with dozens of new characters thrown at you it's hard to keep being interested. It all pays off (or will hopefully pay off in TWOW/late ADWD) though and the second half is much better, much more interesting and more focused. The book also provides some of the most nauseating scenes of the series.
Now comes the spoilerific part: [AFFC]
About the book, it's definitely a strange beast. I think what turns people off the most is the first half of it which is grueling. The thing moves hellishly slow, the narrative is spread too thinly between all the plotlines and with dozens of new characters thrown at you it's hard to keep being interested. It all pays off (or will hopefully pay off in TWOW/late ADWD) though and the second half is much better, much more interesting and more focused. The book also provides some of the most nauseating scenes of the series.
Now comes the spoilerific part: [AFFC]
First of all, maybe it was my fatigue with the series, but when the book moved away from Dorne/Islands it somehow got better. It's not that they were bad, it's just that the density of them was far too high and around the same point the other plots started moving more towards their proper outcome. Jaime moved to Riverrun, Cersei's insanity accelerated, Brienne met Hyle and her chapters stopped being a bore.
Hell, how can I bash Dorne chapters when they ended in such a badass way ("Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood") and featured the last stand of Arys. If not only for Areo Hotah chapter which was basically watching children play in the water for 20+ pages. God. Similar thing with Ironborn, only swap Areo for Damphair (I HATE him).
Brienne was the biggest offender though. Her early chapters were so sleep-inducing I could barely read a few pages before falling asleep. They felt like poor man's Arya from ASOS. At least we got the fight with Rorge and Biter and reintroduction of Catelyn, who is now one of the cruelest characters of the series. God Damn You Beric. How could you do this.
Sansa, Arya, Samwell - here I have not much to say except that Arya was quite great, Sansa mildly interesting and Samwell was of varying quality (fat pink mast though, Jesus. At least his final chapter brings some interesting additions to the table).
Jaime - good, not as amazing as in ASOS, but still good. And "You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet". WOAH.
Finally, Cersei, unarguably the star of the show. Her final descent into insanity. Though as Margaery's virginity is highly questioned in her final chapter, it's intriguing just how insane she was and how right she actually was with her paranoia. Still, he's absolutely evil just by what she allows Qyburn to do. Simply sending people to him because she "suspects they might know too much"? Jesus.
That brings me to my final point, one of the most off-puting scenes of the series. Torture of the Blue Bard. I don't even want to talk more about it. I'd ask how they want to show it on the TV, but I don't even want to imagine it. I mean, did we really have to get a whole paragraph detailing Qyburn cutting his nipple off? Ugh.
Hell, how can I bash Dorne chapters when they ended in such a badass way ("Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood") and featured the last stand of Arys. If not only for Areo Hotah chapter which was basically watching children play in the water for 20+ pages. God. Similar thing with Ironborn, only swap Areo for Damphair (I HATE him).
Brienne was the biggest offender though. Her early chapters were so sleep-inducing I could barely read a few pages before falling asleep. They felt like poor man's Arya from ASOS. At least we got the fight with Rorge and Biter and reintroduction of Catelyn, who is now one of the cruelest characters of the series. God Damn You Beric. How could you do this.
Sansa, Arya, Samwell - here I have not much to say except that Arya was quite great, Sansa mildly interesting and Samwell was of varying quality (fat pink mast though, Jesus. At least his final chapter brings some interesting additions to the table).
Jaime - good, not as amazing as in ASOS, but still good. And "You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet". WOAH.
Finally, Cersei, unarguably the star of the show. Her final descent into insanity. Though as Margaery's virginity is highly questioned in her final chapter, it's intriguing just how insane she was and how right she actually was with her paranoia. Still, he's absolutely evil just by what she allows Qyburn to do. Simply sending people to him because she "suspects they might know too much"? Jesus.
That brings me to my final point, one of the most off-puting scenes of the series. Torture of the Blue Bard. I don't even want to talk more about it. I'd ask how they want to show it on the TV, but I don't even want to imagine it. I mean, did we really have to get a whole paragraph detailing Qyburn cutting his nipple off? Ugh.
^ 
Yeah, first half was slow paced but it picked up and I loved the end of affc.
But man, reading dance atm and 300 pages in and I so don't want to keep reading. Or well I do, I can't stop reading but what am I going to do for next ~5 years
I love this world so much it's hard, I've been reading the series slooooowly and taking breaks but it's so good, I'll have dance finished in few days and then I'm screwed.
Had like half year break with affc, was half done and when I picked it up again went fast and great.
Yeah, first half was slow paced but it picked up and I loved the end of affc.
But man, reading dance atm and 300 pages in and I so don't want to keep reading. Or well I do, I can't stop reading but what am I going to do for next ~5 years
I love this world so much it's hard, I've been reading the series slooooowly and taking breaks but it's so good, I'll have dance finished in few days and then I'm screwed.
Had like half year break with affc, was half done and when I picked it up again went fast and great.
Cpt.Underpants
Member
So I just finished A Storm of Swords and about to start with A Feast for Crows, all I can say the books are incredible.
Major spoilers: Click at your own risk
Some of the events and chapters on the books are really heart wrenching and a couple it felt somewhat glorious.
Is it just me or Tyrion has one of the best lines in the book?
Major spoilers: Click at your own risk
Some of the events and chapters on the books are really heart wrenching and a couple it felt somewhat glorious.
Daenerys deceiving the Slave lords of Astrapor
Tyrion's conversations with Cersei
Arstan Whitebeard's reveal
Jaime's reason why he killed The Mad King and confession to Tyrion
Arya Stark time spent between getting captured and escaping from her captors
Ygritte's death
Jon Snow's time with the wildlings especially Tormund Giantsbane
Sam Tarly and Gilly's saviour (whoever that guy was)
Brienne and Jaime Lannister's duel
Tyrion finding out the moles and leading the defense on King's Landing
Arya and Sandor team up
and most of all.....The Red Wedding, I was starting to like Dacey Mormont and then....BOOOM!!!
Tyrion's conversations with Cersei
Arstan Whitebeard's reveal
Jaime's reason why he killed The Mad King and confession to Tyrion
Arya Stark time spent between getting captured and escaping from her captors
Ygritte's death
Jon Snow's time with the wildlings especially Tormund Giantsbane
Sam Tarly and Gilly's saviour (whoever that guy was)
Brienne and Jaime Lannister's duel
Tyrion finding out the moles and leading the defense on King's Landing
Arya and Sandor team up
and most of all.....The Red Wedding, I was starting to like Dacey Mormont and then....BOOOM!!!
Is it just me or Tyrion has one of the best lines in the book?
"Those are brave men, lets go kill them"
"If I could pray with my cock, i'd be more religous"
"it doesn’t seem quite just that you should open your legs for one brother and not the other"
"If I could pray with my cock, i'd be more religous"
"it doesn’t seem quite just that you should open your legs for one brother and not the other"
DarkChronic
Member
^
Yeah, first half was slow paced but it picked up and I loved the end of affc.
But man, reading dance atm and 300 pages in and I so don't want to keep reading. Or well I do, I can't stop reading but what am I going to do for next ~5 years
I love this world so much it's hard, I've been reading the series slooooowly and taking breaks but it's so good, I'll have dance finished in few days and then I'm screwed.
Had like half year break with affc, was half done and when I picked it up again went fast and great.
I'm a little more than 300 pages into Dance myself and I absolutely love it. I don't understand some of the hate that it is getting. Some really great/cool stuff happening, and the build up as to what's to come seems incredible.
I also loved Feast, thought it was a terrific book. I especially enjoyed the Epilogue chapter. Can't wait to find out more about that...
28 Posts Later
Member
Primarily it's just how long the novel is given the events that occur; there's a fair amount of needless filler and side-diversions: the number of pages spent traveling the same distance seems to have increased every novel for example. Given readers initially spent 6 years awaiting its release it should be understandable why the novel, despite being a decent addition to the series, receives some hate.
It starts off really great, slows down a LOT in the middle, and then picks up again near the end, only to end about 150 pages too soon.
That one is hilarious.
Yeah, the start to ADWD is really good. Even if it slows down in the middle, the first 100+ pages are great. Well, at least mostly.
[1/8th into ADWD]
It's too early to make any judgments about the book but it seems much better than AFFC at the first glance.
[1/8th into ADWD]
Daenerys' sole chapter so far is a disappointment. Tyrion is slightly better, but it really seems his wits left him on his journey to Essos. I understand he is crushed and everything but from the three Tyrion chapters so far I only (ok, a hyperbole, but still) remember that he goes, as nearly everyone else, to meet Daenerys Stormbore and "Where do whores go?"
BUT! The North plotline is fascinating. Brann's initial chapter was great and Jon is amazing. His second chapter, even if it overlaps with Sam's from AFFC, was amazing - especially with his handling of Janos Slynt. Serves him right, hah.
BUT! The North plotline is fascinating. Brann's initial chapter was great and Jon is amazing. His second chapter, even if it overlaps with Sam's from AFFC, was amazing - especially with his handling of Janos Slynt. Serves him right, hah.
It's too early to make any judgments about the book but it seems much better than AFFC at the first glance.
ADWD (it should be fine for you to read this)
Don't expect Dany's chapters to get any better. Worst part of the book. Everything in the North is consistently amazing though.
Just wanted to chime in and say that I'm about a third of the way through ADWD and for the first time in this series I have read 2 chapters in a row that have actually given me
Now for some speculation:
ADWD (1/3 done):
AFFC:
hope for the future of the Starks and the North. The first was the chapter where Melisandre tells Jon that Ayra will one day ride to him. The second was the Davos chapter right after Jons where we find out Davos is still alive and also finally learn something about Rickon. This was an awesome chapter and it was great to know that there was someone in the North to stand-up to the Boltons and Freys (other than Stannis).
Of course the last time I got hope for the Starks was when I thought Ayra was about to reunite with Robb and Cat and we all know what happened there, so I'm almost expecting something bad to happen in the next few chapters (please don't tell me one way or another).
Of course the last time I got hope for the Starks was when I thought Ayra was about to reunite with Robb and Cat and we all know what happened there, so I'm almost expecting something bad to happen in the next few chapters (please don't tell me one way or another).
Now for some speculation:
ADWD (1/3 done):
I know above I said that Ayra will one day ride to Jon but I realize Melisandre only said "sister" so it could easily be Sansa or someone else we don't know about (since Jon may not be Neds), however the discussion was about Arya. This got me thinking to something from AFFC that is similar...
AFFC:
In AFFC, when Cersei is thinking about her valaquor (sp?), near the end we finally learn that it means "little brother". The vision that she was told was that her "little brother" would strangle her one day. Does anyone think that this could be Jamie instead of Tyrion? I'm sure it might have been discussed in this thread already. Was it ever mentioned who was born first of the twins? I think it was but can't remember for sure.
Regarding your ADWD and AFFC stuff
That Davos chapter you mentioned was fantastic. Manderly is such a fucking boss in that book. "The North Remembers, Lord Davos." I got chills.
Regarding Cersei, I also started thinking Jaime would be the one to kill her after his chapters in AFFC where he finally comes to realize how fucked up she is.
Regarding Cersei, I also started thinking Jaime would be the one to kill her after his chapters in AFFC where he finally comes to realize how fucked up she is.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
I'm at about 45% through Dance and share similar sentiments, along with this:
The back to back sequences of Bran's greenseeing and Jon in the North Weirwood (haven't finished that chapter yet so shush) was absolutely gorgeous. It served as this strange and beautiful calm amidst all the craziness around it. I remember reading someone say the middle of the book drags but I found these sequences riveting. More, actually, than some of Dany's stuff. She could use a chapter where nothing at all happens as opposed to a bunch of stuff that isn't terribly interesting.
Acidote
Member
Don't get your hopes up, that could easily mean she will ride to him because the faceless men told her to. Ride to kill him. We don't really know anything about that.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
Have we heard anything new about that fork starting to write The Winds of Winter yet?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
He's too busy traveling around the world saying the same shit over and over and working on other stuff.
If we're lucky he'll be able to squeeze in a couple months of writing in the summer before football starts. But there's a 62% chance he'll throw that away and have to start over.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
/Die of Diabetes, you mean.
Fuck no. Sanderson is awful.
That's not to be taken literally. The Targaryens are an ancient Valyrian family of dragonriders. They have some affinity with dragons and fire/magic but it's nothing huge.
In GoT, Arya comments that the dragon skulls in king's landing felt "hostile" to her. That's because she is very much "of the north".
BolognaOni
Member
Yeah, he's posted/read a few chapters at events now, but as of last month he supposedly had about 200 pages written.
So yeah, I'm thinking 2015-ish. Basically, once you're done with ADWD, just put your feet up and enjoy something else for a while. I'd much rather he finish it well than finish it quickly, but at the rate it appears to be going, I do wonder if health and pressures from Hollywood are not going to interfere.
VanillaPMP
Neo Member
A bit more history on the Valyrians. Don't worry, I checked and there aren't any book spoilers on this page.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Valyrian_Freehold
Somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 into ADWD
I can understand some sentiments that the book is a disappointment to people, or that it drags on and on and on, but hell, it certainly isn't like that to me.
Yeah, GRRM should definitely get a new editor as the book is sometimes a complete clusterfuck, but still, ADWD isn't as big a disappointment as I've expected (though I can't speak for myself if I've had waited 6 years for it). It's definitely a step-up over AFFC, and I'd wager it's better than ACOK, mayhaps even AGOT if it really drags that much out in the middle and gets better at the end.
Now, onto obvious spoilerific complaints.
So, yeah, the book is good. Sadly, unless I slow down majorly I will finish it within a week. Feels bad.
I can understand some sentiments that the book is a disappointment to people, or that it drags on and on and on, but hell, it certainly isn't like that to me.
Yeah, GRRM should definitely get a new editor as the book is sometimes a complete clusterfuck, but still, ADWD isn't as big a disappointment as I've expected (though I can't speak for myself if I've had waited 6 years for it). It's definitely a step-up over AFFC, and I'd wager it's better than ACOK, mayhaps even AGOT if it really drags that much out in the middle and gets better at the end.
Now, onto obvious spoilerific complaints.
Obviously, Daenerys. Sweet Mother of Mercy save us. How boring are her chapters. No, not even only boring, but also downright insulting. Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Shackles is a horny child that bases half of her decisions on someone's physical look. And Daario. For Christ's sake. I have no hope for her storyline at that moment.
Secondly, Tyrion. I won't divulge too much into it as it's not worth my time, but this is another great disappointment. Oh and, yeah. You know. Tyrion jousts on a pig.
There are I guess the main problems with ADWD. Aside from, obviously, editing which is sometimes horrendous. A single Dorne chapter thrown into the middle of the book, by the most boring PoV of them all? I'm not saying it was bad - it was really good and Doran is amazing, but still, it just doesn't find suddenly out of nowhere.
Another complaint about Arya, I guess I'd be angry if I'd waited 6 years and 2/3 of a book to learn within three sentences that the blindness is only temporary? Grrrrr.
Now now, I've praised it earlier and I'll keep my word as, contrary to most of Essos stuff, the North is constantly, consistently, AMAZING. Be it Jon's command, Bran's arrival at Bloodraven and his visions (I loved the warging into weirwood sequence, shame it's the end of his arc for this book), Davos's meeting with Manderly (The North Remembers, ser Davos. He is a lot like Doran in that respect - as in everybody thinks he is quiet and craven, but the truth is completely different), they are all amazing. I can barely remember a single bad chapter that took place in the north.
Nevertheless, they are all trumped by a single PoV.
My name is Reek. It rhymes with freak
Oh my goodness. Reek's chapters are amongst the best in the series. They are amazing, gripping, horrifying, disgusting, vile, glorious. Theon's insanity is impressive, moreso because we can see it through his PoV. And GRRM was able to create a villain that trumped Joffrey in every aspect - someone who was already an impressive villain.
Shame I've finished his arc for the book, as he was the true main character of it for me. Sort of like Jaime in ASOS - who would've thought that Theon Greyjoy's PoV could be so fascinating.
Secondly, Tyrion. I won't divulge too much into it as it's not worth my time, but this is another great disappointment. Oh and, yeah. You know. Tyrion jousts on a pig.
There are I guess the main problems with ADWD. Aside from, obviously, editing which is sometimes horrendous. A single Dorne chapter thrown into the middle of the book, by the most boring PoV of them all? I'm not saying it was bad - it was really good and Doran is amazing, but still, it just doesn't find suddenly out of nowhere.
Another complaint about Arya, I guess I'd be angry if I'd waited 6 years and 2/3 of a book to learn within three sentences that the blindness is only temporary? Grrrrr.
Now now, I've praised it earlier and I'll keep my word as, contrary to most of Essos stuff, the North is constantly, consistently, AMAZING. Be it Jon's command, Bran's arrival at Bloodraven and his visions (I loved the warging into weirwood sequence, shame it's the end of his arc for this book), Davos's meeting with Manderly (The North Remembers, ser Davos. He is a lot like Doran in that respect - as in everybody thinks he is quiet and craven, but the truth is completely different), they are all amazing. I can barely remember a single bad chapter that took place in the north.
Nevertheless, they are all trumped by a single PoV.
My name is Reek. It rhymes with freak
Oh my goodness. Reek's chapters are amongst the best in the series. They are amazing, gripping, horrifying, disgusting, vile, glorious. Theon's insanity is impressive, moreso because we can see it through his PoV. And GRRM was able to create a villain that trumped Joffrey in every aspect - someone who was already an impressive villain.
Shame I've finished his arc for the book, as he was the true main character of it for me. Sort of like Jaime in ASOS - who would've thought that Theon Greyjoy's PoV could be so fascinating.
So, yeah, the book is good. Sadly, unless I slow down majorly I will finish it within a week. Feels bad.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
The chapters in the North are easily the best parts of the book. Everything else is mostly shit.
Acidote
Member
Well, the Spanish release of Dance with Dragons finally has a date and with that comes a new illustration by Corominas (spoilerish):
http://i.imgur.com/BCElg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BCElg.jpg
SerArthurDayne
Member
ADWD
And I'm on board with you, CassSept, about Dance.
She wasn't quite that naked. Not a bad image. But if you see that early you are in for hundreds of pages of Danyspointment.
I do like the random, armored Dornishmen.
I do like the random, armored Dornishmen.
And I'm on board with you, CassSept, about Dance.
ADWD
I haven't yet gotten to next Dany chapter, but didn't someone (I think Barristan) mention her hair being set on fire? There were many conflicting accounts of the event, but as she got close to Drogon she could've been hit by fire, which would make her clothes burn, and just went on as she is immune to it
Finished A Clash of Kings today.
Super quick thoughts, spoilers for the whole thing.
I dunno. Just a very frustrating read for the most part; Game of Thrones was greatly superior. Going to take a break from the books to finish the first season of the series on video.
Super quick thoughts, spoilers for the whole thing.
I really didn't enjoy much of the book; it felt like the first half was just treading water. The narrative structure was frustrating: often times some of the most important events were taking place around characters who were not one of the POV players, such as Robb. Getting carrier pigeon (okay, ravens) reports on these amazing battlefield victories he keeps having was frustrating. He's too important a character to just dump - at the end he's the only Stark in any position of power left, and we know nothing of him, his condition, etc.
The setup to and execution of the battle at Kings Landing was superb. The suspense of what the chain would be for, and then realizing the huge trap Stannis was walking (floating?) into was great.
In the end though, this book made me feel....bad. I said on Twitter I'm expecting all the likable characters to be getting skullfucked by book 4, given the shape they're in at the end of this one. It's a very, very cruel gauntlet they are going through, and there's scare little levity to lift things. I want to know how all these threads will come together, but right now none of them are really compelling on their own.
The way some fizzled out was maddening: the sorceress' freakish 'birth' happens - which seemed like a big deal? - but we never see her again or hear of it after. Cat demands a sword...and that's it for the book.
The setup to and execution of the battle at Kings Landing was superb. The suspense of what the chain would be for, and then realizing the huge trap Stannis was walking (floating?) into was great.
In the end though, this book made me feel....bad. I said on Twitter I'm expecting all the likable characters to be getting skullfucked by book 4, given the shape they're in at the end of this one. It's a very, very cruel gauntlet they are going through, and there's scare little levity to lift things. I want to know how all these threads will come together, but right now none of them are really compelling on their own.
The way some fizzled out was maddening: the sorceress' freakish 'birth' happens - which seemed like a big deal? - but we never see her again or hear of it after. Cat demands a sword...and that's it for the book.
I dunno. Just a very frustrating read for the most part; Game of Thrones was greatly superior. Going to take a break from the books to finish the first season of the series on video.
SerArthurDayne
Member
Based on that, I think you will like 3 but hate 4 and 5. They are closer in style to Clash. Martin's style just might not be for you, but I would definitely advise keeping up. I'm biased, because I love them all.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
I'd agree that I think I enjoyed A Game of Thrones more than A Clash of Kings. A lot of Clash feels like setup. [Clash spoilers]
Blackwater and what happens in Winterfell are really the main events, although Arya's stuff with Jaqen is good too towards the end.
But really, Clash is sort of setup for A Storm of Swords. The first third of Swords is maybe a little slow, but the remaining two thirds of A Storm of Swords is just one huge event and payoff after another. Then you get to Feast, which is in some ways even more of a slow burn than A Clash of Kings.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Clash:
While we don't necessarily hear characters speaking of "the birthing", we do see its effects. It kills Ser Cortnay Penrose at Storms End, thus bringing the fortress over to Stannis' side. That's a pretty big deal. And the first shadow killed Renly.
I didn't think that was possible. :lol
I'll continue on, as despite my frustrations, the world Martin is building and the (few) characters I do care for are compelling enough that I want to see it through.
PhoenixDark
Banned
As another poster said, I also get the impression you'll really like the third book but have some trouble with the recent two. Also my impressions of ACOK pace was rather different:
I enjoyed the slow burn buildup of the novel, especially Tyrion's chapters. There certainly were slow parts (Dany's early chapters especially) but overall I was impressed. So much of ACOK is about dealing with war, yet you don't see an actual war up close until the end. The mass of peasants outside the gates of King's Landing, the grumbling of river land lords over their crops/harvest, Arya's slow journey down the devastated King's Road, and of course a mother (Catelyn) helpless as her son fights a war miles away. I can certainly see how that type of pace would turn people off, but I loved it from a world building perspective. You can almost taste the atmosphere as you read.
I would have liked to see Robb's exploits from a POV as well. Many argue they prefer Martin's decision to create an aura of mystery and even myth around Robb, and it certainly works in many ways. But I think most people who finished Game Of Thrones naturally began rooting for Robb and would have loved to either get a POV from him, or from someone in his vicinity. It can't be understated just how much many of his bannermen love him, it would have been great to see that directly. Still, Martin's ultimate decision makes readers identify more with Catelyn's emotions, which was impressive. I remember freaking out when word of Robb being injured reached her. Was it fatal? Did Martin decide to maim him (something he's rather fond of doing to characters, as you know by now)? Of course when he marched back to her I was relieved he wasn't rocking an eye patch or missing a leg. And that type of tension might be lost if we knew everything Robb was doing
Of course, the middle ground could have been to have a POV perhaps for the Greatjon, just a few chapters. Enough to give us more Robb, but not enough to detail the extend of his injury before he marched back to Riverrun
I would have liked to see Robb's exploits from a POV as well. Many argue they prefer Martin's decision to create an aura of mystery and even myth around Robb, and it certainly works in many ways. But I think most people who finished Game Of Thrones naturally began rooting for Robb and would have loved to either get a POV from him, or from someone in his vicinity. It can't be understated just how much many of his bannermen love him, it would have been great to see that directly. Still, Martin's ultimate decision makes readers identify more with Catelyn's emotions, which was impressive. I remember freaking out when word of Robb being injured reached her. Was it fatal? Did Martin decide to maim him (something he's rather fond of doing to characters, as you know by now)? Of course when he marched back to her I was relieved he wasn't rocking an eye patch or missing a leg. And that type of tension might be lost if we knew everything Robb was doing
Of course, the middle ground could have been to have a POV perhaps for the Greatjon, just a few chapters. Enough to give us more Robb, but not enough to detail the extend of his injury before he marched back to Riverrun
Clash
I think you touched on part of why I didn't like the pacing: this was a story of warfare from the perspective of people largely on the fringes of that war. At the end of Thrones we knew all hell was about to break lose, and during Clash, we kept being told that it was - but never really saw it until the very end.
I felt Robb's absence because here Marin placed one of the main characters - Ned's heir - in the thick of the war, and then abandoned him. I really don't care for Cat - she's a complete fool - and the two children don't provide much to latch on to. Jon's tale is (so far) entirely disconnected from the rest, and so Clash in the end wasn't really about the war at all; it was about hearing about the war, seeing the war's aftermath, getting anecdotal reports on it. Robb is Ned's heir, and his story is one of the only remaining power the Stark's have.
Given how bleak the story is, I suspect Martin didn't want to include Robb's story because he is continually victorious. He does misery and suffering so well, and in such volume, he can barely get himself to show a likable character achieving something uplifting.
Come to think of it, we've never actually seen Robb's army victorious; the only fight we see of it in Thrones was the ruse, an apparent defeat. We get word of the crushing victory after, reported second hand. Events like the capture of Jamie (!!!!!!) happen off the page because he doesn't want to show the 'good guys' achieving a victory. But he's happy have them maimed, killed, driven, enslaved or beaten repeatedly. And in the end, up and murders nearly every single character in Winterfell.
I think that's what got to me, ultimately. The pacing is a slow burn, yes. But it's a monotone one, the entire story was a very slow, bleak trudge. Despair, desperation, isolation, misery - those were the emotional themes of the entire book. Only one event made me smile (Theon getting punked by his sister) over the course of the entire book. Actually, I take that back. The mob assaulting Joffrey's group was great; at least he spread the misery around to characters that deserve it.
I guess that's war. But I wish some of that misery came with a bit more of a payoff; there was none in this book.
This all sounds very negative, but it comes right on the heels of finishing it, which was quite the downer. There is much to praise, which I'll do once I've had a day or two to think about it. Among them - the Hound emerged as one of my favorite characters. His last scene with Sansa was just perfect.
I felt Robb's absence because here Marin placed one of the main characters - Ned's heir - in the thick of the war, and then abandoned him. I really don't care for Cat - she's a complete fool - and the two children don't provide much to latch on to. Jon's tale is (so far) entirely disconnected from the rest, and so Clash in the end wasn't really about the war at all; it was about hearing about the war, seeing the war's aftermath, getting anecdotal reports on it. Robb is Ned's heir, and his story is one of the only remaining power the Stark's have.
Given how bleak the story is, I suspect Martin didn't want to include Robb's story because he is continually victorious. He does misery and suffering so well, and in such volume, he can barely get himself to show a likable character achieving something uplifting.
Come to think of it, we've never actually seen Robb's army victorious; the only fight we see of it in Thrones was the ruse, an apparent defeat. We get word of the crushing victory after, reported second hand. Events like the capture of Jamie (!!!!!!) happen off the page because he doesn't want to show the 'good guys' achieving a victory. But he's happy have them maimed, killed, driven, enslaved or beaten repeatedly. And in the end, up and murders nearly every single character in Winterfell.
I think that's what got to me, ultimately. The pacing is a slow burn, yes. But it's a monotone one, the entire story was a very slow, bleak trudge. Despair, desperation, isolation, misery - those were the emotional themes of the entire book. Only one event made me smile (Theon getting punked by his sister) over the course of the entire book. Actually, I take that back. The mob assaulting Joffrey's group was great; at least he spread the misery around to characters that deserve it.
I guess that's war. But I wish some of that misery came with a bit more of a payoff; there was none in this book.
This all sounds very negative, but it comes right on the heels of finishing it, which was quite the downer. There is much to praise, which I'll do once I've had a day or two to think about it. Among them - the Hound emerged as one of my favorite characters. His last scene with Sansa was just perfect.
PhoenixDark
Banned
clash
I don't think it's Martin not wanting to write about good things, and moreso his POV decisions. Plenty of good things happen to Jon, Arya, and Dany in the book for instance. But in terms of war every front is not reported from, so to speak.
You touched on the general nature of ACOK though: war is bleak. So much of it is about seeing the aftermath of small battles and general issues that almost never come up in other high fantasy. If one side burns the entire harvest, how does that effect the world? Well the peasants are fucked first, but eventually the higher class feels it too. I like how Cersei and others complain about the lack of good wine due to Renly's blockade of supply lines, while the the more important impact of Tywin burning everything goes un-noticed (except for Tyrion of course). I just love those little details, and they become more important later.
I feel like so much of the book is summed up by the end of Tyrion's arc/chapters. He confidently maneuvers through a dangerous political gauntlet, curbs many of the excesses of the King, and ultimately saves the city yet doesn't receive an ounce of praise or recognition.
You touched on the general nature of ACOK though: war is bleak. So much of it is about seeing the aftermath of small battles and general issues that almost never come up in other high fantasy. If one side burns the entire harvest, how does that effect the world? Well the peasants are fucked first, but eventually the higher class feels it too. I like how Cersei and others complain about the lack of good wine due to Renly's blockade of supply lines, while the the more important impact of Tywin burning everything goes un-noticed (except for Tyrion of course). I just love those little details, and they become more important later.
I feel like so much of the book is summed up by the end of Tyrion's arc/chapters. He confidently maneuvers through a dangerous political gauntlet, curbs many of the excesses of the King, and ultimately saves the city yet doesn't receive an ounce of praise or recognition.
Aye, the details in that regard were impressive. The scene where the people turn on Joffrey was wonderful and had impact, not just because of what happened, but because of how carefully that build up was crafted. We'd been seeing the way the economy had dried up, shifting to selling war supplies and cooked rats for food; more and more people fleeing to Kings Landing, stretching the supply base; the entire economy throttled. Coupled with Joffrey's public cruelty, the rumors of how he was conceived getting out...there's a steady slow boil for 500 pages and it all roils over then. It was, I think, one of the few real payoffs in the book. The other major one, for me, was the Hound's last scene. His relationship with Sansa was very well handled throughout, a subtext to all his words and deeds.
The more I think about Martin's aversion to uplift, the more I think that really is the case, though. Most good news is delivered second hand. I can deal with that now that I know what I'm in for, but it's a creative direction that was very wearisome by the end.
The more I think about Martin's aversion to uplift, the more I think that really is the case, though. Most good news is delivered second hand. I can deal with that now that I know what I'm in for, but it's a creative direction that was very wearisome by the end.
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