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[Morrigan Stark]

I'm of the opinion that female and minority protagonists shouldn't be shoehorned into a game. I prefer something natural as opposed to some contrivance meant to appeal to a vocal community.

I'm so glad plenty of people have explained why this reasoning is 100% bullshit.

okay, you realize that every single game character ever created (outside of explicit adaptations from other mediums) is created from scratch for that game, right?

There is no such thing as a "natural" game character, or a game character that isn't "shoehorned" into a game to some degree.

You don't get white male characters for free, and female/minority characters don't cost extra. You have to create them all from the ground up, design them all visually, model and texture them all, etc.

This idea that white male video game characters are "natural" is nothing but a cultural bias favoring white men.

Shhh you'll give them DLC ideas

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I'm so glad plenty of people have explained why this reasoning is 100% bullshit.


Shhh you'll give them DLC ideas

Pre order to play as Buzzcut White Military Man - GameStop exclusive

 

[Zereta]

So 52% for females is good compared to 90% for males?

No, but this article is misrepresenting information to serve it's agenda, which is a perfectly fine agenda (agenda makes it seem evil, it's not. English)

Ignoring games that give players a choice, as though they don't really matter, seems kinda fucked, don't you think?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Game Devs trying to identify the main protagonists with their largest demographic group

*GASPS*

So just to get this straight, the game industry are pandering to men and shoehorning men into games

 

[MikeE21286]

How does his compare to priori years?

 

[Astral Dog]

Unfortunately this has always been the case, gamming is a male (demographic) dominated world. And SONY being the biggest publisher is the one just recently changing a bit with one game (Horizon).

That said, i think games with female protagonists will always be a bit rare, game developers are mostly guys too.

Im not a big fan of "choose your character" either, prefer a game were you play as a defined character, girl or boy.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

How does his compare to priori years?

"The games centered on women were: ReCore, Mirror’s Edge: Catalyst, Horizon: Zero Dawn, Rise of the Tomb Raider, the mobile game Lara Croft Go, and two indie titles: Tacoma and Beyond Eyes."

So Mirror's Edge and Tomb Raider games actually came out since last year, we're still seeing ReCore and Horizon, and they didnt show off the several smaller titles starring women they could have boosted this stat(Abzu, Bound, Gravity Rush 2, Nier...although that might not count because I hear the male character is selectable as well)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

No, but this article is misrepresenting information to serve it's agenda, which is a perfectly fine agenda (agenda makes it seem evil, it's not. English)

Ignoring games that give players a choice, as though they don't really matter, seems kinda fucked, don't you think?

How is it misrepresenting? They're not ignoring it, they are specifically mentioning and counting them.

 

[El_Cinefilo]

I'm assuming this is only counting certain games. For example would GT sport count as a game without a default female protagonist or Tekken 7? I mean it's still a serious problem either way obviously. I'm just wondering how they counted it.


Edit: I reread it properly for the full info.

 

[szaromir]

So just to get this straight, the game industry are pandering to men and shoehorning men into games

Throughout history, it was men who predominantly participated in hunts, wars and other violence/combat oriented activities. It shouldn't come off as a surprise that yes, men are more likely to indulge themselves in such fantasies and putting male characters in such scenarios is more plausible. (however unrealistic gameplay and scenarios in those games are)

Look outside the AAA games dominated by combat-oriented games and you'll find plenty of female leads. The p'n'c adventure genre is the best example.

 

[Dreavus]

No, but this article is misrepresenting information to serve it's agenda, which is a perfectly fine agenda (agenda makes it seem evil, it's not. English)

Ignoring games that give players a choice, as though they don't really matter, seems kinda fucked, don't you think?

I dunno about misrepresenting, but it's a bit misleading if you don't look carefully, yeah.

I'd be interested how the numbers change if you look at everything too, not just the main stage. They make a good point regardless.

 

[grosvenor_92]

Debuted at Gamescom '14, so they're probably going to show it there again this year.

Oh that would make sense then so we'll have to wait and see

 

[Foffy]

Does onstage mean actual showcase, or a sizzle reel?

Because Bloodstained stars a female, and that was in Microsoft's sizzle reel during their E3 conference..

 

[Lime]

Game Devs trying to identify the main protagonists with their largest demographic group

*GASPS*

Unfortunately this has always been the case, gamming is a male (demographic) dominated world.

Could we please kill this myth?

Judging by the data provided, the majority of AAA gamers are male. So maybe those who are seeking what I assume to be protagonist equality, to pressure those who make mobile titles to use female protagonists.

How did you arrive at that conclusion based on the data I provided? Nothing in the statistics state anything about AAA games.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Throughout history, it was men who predominantly participated in hunts, wars and other violence/combat oriented activities. It shouldn't come off as a surprise that yes, men are more likely to indulge themselves in such fantasies and putting male characters in such scenarios is more plausible. (however unrealistic gameplay and scenarios in those games are)

Look outside the AAA games dominated by combat-oriented games and you'll find plenty of female leads. The p'n'c adventure genre is the best example.

I love how fiction is fiction, but the moment you get into "how about including women in your story", it's "this game about magic and monsters wouldn't make sense in women because women are not hunters"

Why do games overrepresent white people in that case? I don't know that white people are more noted for hunting than other ethnicities.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Does onstage mean actual showcase, or a sizzle reel?

Because Bloodstained stars a female, and that was in Microsoft's sizzle reel during their E3 conference..

"We counted only those upcoming games which were given full trailers, announcements, or demonstrations on stage, so games that only appear briefly in montages or sizzle reels are not included."

 

[Foffy]

"We counted only those upcoming games which were given full trailers, announcements, or demonstrations on stage, so games that only appear briefly in montages or sizzle reels are not included."

Ohp...

You could have added like, four more games that way!

It still supports their arguments regardless, but limiting the pool of what counts as "real" showcasing is something that I find too subjective to create the boundaries upon.

 

[kamineko]

This article is gross. Obviously women (and minorities) will never be satisfied, they are just complaining to complain. We give and we give, and it's never enough.

Brief disclaimer: I can barely read, so I may have misunderstood the OP, and my head starts to hurt when people talk about numbers.

Also, could everyone delete their links to the pie chart? It makes it a little too obvious that, even considering games with a binary option, the tilt toward male protagonists is substantial (and larger than last year's), and I have a really sweet post typed up that contains the word "narrative" at least three times about how misleading the pie chart is. The picture of the chart ruins the whole thing. How am I supposed to just make up shit about the chart when everybody can look at it for themselves?

Really, though, I just get off on saying "narrative."

Here's an idea for a new IP: White Male Media Studies Analyst. Can he save gaming before fake gamer girls and their army of beta cucks ruin everything?

Spoiler

let's hope not

 

[GribbleGrunger]

And 99.9% of those were pretty.

 

[N30RYU]

the title is wrong. must say 97% of the games are leaded by strong and clever men while females are gonna appear in underwear armors.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Oh that would make sense then so we'll have to wait and see

Yep. They're probably in crunch mode to get it out this year, so I assume they didn't want to waste time flying all the way to LA from England. Hopefully they'll have something solid for Gamescom though.

 

[El_Cinefilo]

I'm surprised and disappointed it's at that rate at this point. Does playing as a woman really put men off?

I mean if I choose my character or certainly if I create one I'll generally gravitate towards a male character (more relatable, maybe I'm just a bit sexist?) but I'd take Kat, Max Caulfield, Lara Croft, The female protagonist from Horizon, etc over another generic white, buzzcut, dark haired grunt every time.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

So I was thinking about what the end goal for gender equality in video games would be. And I think for me that the answer is somewhere along the lines of 25% of games featuring a male protagonist exclusively, 25% of games featuring a female protagonist exclusively, and 50% of games featuring a choice between genders with equal marketing opportunities between both.

Obviously those female characters shouldn't be shoehorned in, but it really isn't that hard to replace a lot of male characters in games with female characters.

Sadly, I think that this is something that seems a tad outrageous to some folks, and won't come about anytime soon. We are making slow progress thoughWhat do you think of Super Princess Peach's emotion-based gameplay mechanics?.

I wouldn't use specific percentages as goals. The goal isn't really a destination so much as it is to achieve and uphold mindfulness of the matter

 

[AstroNut325]

For the games that matter to me:
God of War: male lead
Horizon: female lead
Gran Turismo Sport: tbd
Gravity Rush 2: female lead
Abzu: tbd
Bound: looks female
Mass Effect: female choice

I see massive improvements!

 

[Okamid3n]

My takeaway from this is that when the big game makers want to focus their narrative around one character, that character is a man 93% of the time (41/(41+3)=93%) and a woman 7% of the time.* So, either the character is somewhat of a blank slate and can be both genders or it has to be a man for some reason.


*Of games shown at E3 keynotes.


I can't help but notice a lot more people than usual seem to take offense with this sort of counting lately. I guess E3 brings out a lot of non-regulars in these topics, because NeoGAF is not usually this bad.

 

[Astral Dog]

Does onstage mean actual showcase, or a sizzle reel?

Because Bloodstained stars a female, and that was in Microsoft's sizzle reel during their E3 conference..

I was thinking were was Bloistained, only AAA games count now

Could we please kill this myth?
s.

Im saying from the point of view of most publishers. I know there are many games popular with girls and others that appeal to everyone, but a game wirh a girl proragonist will always be considered a risk and, would be slightly mire difficult to do from a group of guys.like PIXAR says for example.

Female protagonist are cool though

 

[AuthenticM]

That guy on the first page was a junior, right?

 

[kamineko]

That guy on the first page was a junior, right?

4th post IIRC

came out swinging

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Ohp...

You could have added like, four more games that way!

It still supports their arguments regardless, but limiting the pool of what counts as "real" showcasing is something that I find too subjective to create the boundaries upon.

I have several issues with how they conduct these things, but I understand the general point. They have an agenda(which sounds eviiiiiiiiiiil, but its just a word to call it what it is) to see more female characters in prominent roles, and they want to see them marketed at a equal level to male characters at the big stage.

A lot of the exclusively male characters from my list from earlier are established characters who have always been men. Frank West, Kratos, Mario, Link, Spider-Man, South Park, Grow Up...uh, does Norman Reedus count lol? Then there are several other exclusively male characters like Titanfall 2 man, Infinite Warfare, Scalebound, Watch_Dogs 2, Final Fantasy XV solely created for this particular game. Why are they men and not women? IDK. You'd have to ask the developers for their reasons. Its their game and they wanted it to star this character. They dont owe us anything, nor can we demand anything. All we can do is keep asking and maybe they'll keep thinking.

Regardless, I do think the amount of female protagonists in so many of the games displayed is a good thing. Not to mention all the female characters you can play in games that weren't on stage for various reasons like Nier, Gravity Rush 2, Abzu, Bound, Bloodstained, etc.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

4th post IIRC

came out swinging

he died as he lived

with poor decisions

 

[szaromir]

I love how fiction is fiction, but the moment you get into "how about including women in your story", it's "this game about magic and monsters wouldn't make sense in women because women are not hunters"

It's the same reason why opponents are (almost) exclusively male in all those combat oriented games even when the main protagonist is female. Women historically haven't engaged in those combat/violence related activities (at least not to the extent men have) and putting them in those roles with equal frequency does seem somewhat less credible. Obviously scenarios proposed by video games are silly and unrealistic to begin with, and Lara Croft or Nathan Drake murdering thousands of people .

Personally I like playing as female characters, I almost always choose to play a woman in games offering such options (RPGs, Saint's Row etc) and I liked playing as eg. Bayonetta or Lara Croft, but it does not surprise me that we're more predisposed to put (and play as) men in those fictional combat situations more often.

Why do games overrepresent white people in that case? I don't know that white people are more noted for hunting than other ethnicities.

It's not something that I feel comfortable or competent talking about. I come from an ethnically homogenous country and I don't know enough about the situation in more heterogenous societies.

 

[AuthenticM]

4th post IIRC

came out swinging

Can mods see the ip address of posters? These juniors who make posts like these are clearly alt accounts of some other fuckers on here. It would be great if their main account got banned as well.

 

[kamineko]

Can mods see the ip address of posters? These juniors who make posts like these are clearly alt accounts of some other fuckers on here. It would be great if their main account got banned as well.

I don't want to talk about moderation too much, because I think they prefer PMs

I will say that I've seen a moderator call out an alt before.

 

[xrnzaaas]

It looks to me that they intentionally focused on that statistic to make their case. By the way I'm surprised that so many games offer a chance to choose a gender.

 

[Maligna]

Games where you choose gender don't count because of this:

This massive discrepancy means that for now, games continue to reinforce the deeply entrenched cultural notion that heroes are male by default. We live in a culture that regularly encourages girls and women to project themselves onto and fully empathize with male characters, but rarely encourages boys and men to fully project themselves onto female characters," Feminist Frequency's post reads. "When players are encouraged to see a game universe exclusively through the eyes of a humanized female character, it helps challenge the idea that men can’t or shouldn’t identify with women as full human beings.

A person who already doesn't empathize with women will probably continue to not do so because most likely they will choose to play as male, therefore avoiding an experience that may let them grow as a person.

 

[mephel]

Plenty of people have complained about this.

well nobody responded to that comment for several pages, so it didn't seem like a huge deal to most people here, at least not as big as getting that glorious 50:50

i mean, i understand why is it like that (regarding the fodder)

both men and women generally don't want to see women hurt or killed (and in the past, it made biological sense as you don't need as many men as women to guarantee continuity of population - nowadays there's such a fuckton of us that it doesn't even matter, but you can't really ignore biological and historical baggage)

it's the same reason why you don't see many women working dangerous jobs such as construction/heavy industry/infantry/mining etc. and obviously one of the reason why you don't see a lot of women in shooter/heavy action games (which nowadays comprise a huge % of all games)

this is not really related to the thread itself, but when i read this thread, it makes me so happy to live in this backwards post-communist country where you can easily find girls who embrace and appreciate the differences between sexes, a lot of the people in this thread seem like they'd want everyone to be androgynous

 

[Suzushiiro]

Yeah, it's a little disingenuous and click/flamebait-ey to not count games where you can play a character of either gender. More importantly, you're kinda framing the argument as wanting to take the ability to play as a male away from people rather than give more people the ability to play as women. Why the fuck would anyone be happy if all of the games they showed that let you choose between a male and female character took away the male options? It's just a shitty place to put the goalposts all around.

And comparing new IPs vs. existing IPs is important too, not just when talking about existing characters (because of course a new God of War is going to star Kratos) but also the general tradition/target audience of the series. Horizon, a new IP, having a female lead is way more significant to me in this sort of debate than CoD maintaining its decade+ long streak of male protags.

 

[A Link to the Past]

well nobody responded to that comment for several pages, so it didn't seem like a huge deal to most people here, at least not as big as getting that glorious 50:50

i mean, i understand why is it like that (regarding the fodder)

both men and women generally don't want to see women hurt or killed (and in the past, it made biological sense as you don't need as many men as women to guarantee continuity of population - nowadays there's such a fuckton of us that it doesn't even matter, but you can't really ignore biological and historical baggage)

it's the same reason why you don't see many women working dangerous jobs such as construction/heavy industry/infantry/mining etc. and obviously one of the reason why you don't see a lot of women in shooter/heavy action games (which nowadays comprise a huge % of all games)

this is not really related to the thread itself, but when i read this thread, it makes me so happy to live in this backwards post-communist country where you can easily find girls who embrace and appreciate the differences between sexes, a lot of the people in this thread seem like they'd want everyone to be androgynous

I have no idea what you're talking about. People aren't talking about women as enemies because it's not relevant. You could ask someone to make a thread about this however.

Yeah, it's a little disingenuous and click/flamebait-ey to not count games where you can play a character of either gender. More importantly, you're kinda framing the argument as wanting to take the ability to play as a male away from people rather than give more people the ability to play as women. Why the fuck would anyone be happy if all of the games they showed that let you choose between a male and female character took away the male options? It's just a shitty place to put the goalposts all around.

And comparing new IPs vs. existing IPs is important too, not just when talking about existing characters (because of course a new God of War is going to star Kratos) but also the general tradition/target audience of the series. Horizon, a new IP, having a female lead is way more significant to me in this sort of debate than CoD maintaining its decade+ long streak of male protags.

The statistic is to point out how more prevalent games that feature male protagonists exclusively are versus games that feature female protagonists exclusively. It is not about taking toys away from men, it's asking why they have almost half of the toys all to themselves.

 

[evrecheto]

Pointing out the disparity of male-exclusive games vs. female-exclusive games is not preventing them from making the games they want to make.

The point is that the disparity is fixing itself and we will see more and more games with female protagonist. Fretting over it won't change what people want. People will gravitate to more interesting stories and gameplay no matter the sex or sexual preference of the protagonist.

 

[YaBish]

I wouldn't use specific percentages as goals. The goal isn't really a destination so much as it is to achieve and uphold mindfulness of the matter

Yeah, you're probably right, but I always think that having a goal in mind increases mindfulness. Even if the goal itself is transient.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The point is that the disparity is fixing itself and we will see more and more games with female protagonist. Fretting over it won't change what people want. People will gravitate to more interesting stories and gameplay no matter the sex or sexual preference of the protagonist.

But it isn't fixing itself. Men are still blessed with many exclusive protagonist roles, and most new roles for women either put them as a co-star or as a gender option for an avatar character.

 

[SlickVic]

Precisely. The fact that the 3% is what's highlighted and not the 52% just makes all of this seem like trying to intensify a problem, that yes is a problem, but to say that there is a negative representation of female characters (and I guess, more specifically, playable female characters) when there is an active decision made to sensationalise the statistics... I don't know, man.

I respect Anita and what she's trying to do but I don't necessarily agree with the way she sometimes presents that.

femshep forever.

The thing is this is Verge latching on to a more sensationalist headline. The obvious implication if you're just glancing headlines is if of only 3 percent games feature a female protagonist then the remaining 97% are focused on a male protagonist. As has been stated before that's not really true as it's hard to lump games that offer choice as being male centric. If Dishonored 2 devs are to be believed then both protagonists for that game should feel fairly distinct with their own dialog and different abilities, as an example.

If you look at the actual article/survey on FemFrequency the headline does not mention any percent and reading their article it's pretty clear where the numbers are coming from including a pie chart with the breakdown.

 

[BLT]

We need more gay, transgender Indian protagonists IMO.

 

[Lux R7]

I must say, in my Utopia 50% of games have a CC (but every rpg and arpg has a CC) and the other 50% has female protagonists. The reason is that i find female videogame characters far more interesting than male ones.

But aside my personal preference, clearly the industry can do better so we can have 50% of Male/female and 50% male only and female only.

 

[Quotient]

What percentage of gamers who buy on consoles are male versus female?

I remember reading that females representated a large percentage of the casual/mobile gamers, i wonder if that is the case with console games.

 

[Nickle]

Might change the title to indicate that 3% is just for exclusive female protagonists, it's a bit misleading. I think 52% of all games having at least an optional female protagonist is pretty good progress, considering that many long running franchises tend to have male protagonists, and there aren't many women in pro sports games.

And lol at these juniors, I can't believe that this happens in every thread like this.

 

[CyberPunked]

We need more gay, transgender Indian protagonists IMO.

Don't forget disabled. Wouldn't want that group to be offended either.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Don't forget disabled. Wouldn't want that group to be offended either.

Why do you think it's only about not offending people

 

[TGO]

Whatever gender the main character is in a game is whatever the creator has envisioned.
Any form of creativity shouldn't be put under a microscope due to what form it takes.
As an artist I know what I would say to such criticism.
but yeah it is disappointing there isn't more female leads.
But more will come, naturally.
I was actually hoping RE7 was gonna feature Jill but that's out the window now
I know I have a few female lead games on preorder so...

 

[Slaythe]

I find it beyond obnoxious not to count games that let you play both a male and a female.

The step in the right direction is representing both sides equally, not "yeah no male leads !".

I mean, considering that Detroit doesn't feature "a" female lead is just sad. Kara is gonna be a crucial part of the game. Same for Nier 2 etc...

And more importantly, if they have a story to tell, like Horizon, the lead makes perfect sense.

Just like it makes sense to have a male for God of War 4.

I'm glad you have games like Mass Effect that lets you choose, and games like Detroit that give equal importance to the characters, regardless of their gender.