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[What did he mean by this?]

I vote with my wallet; not even intentionally. If a game has grizzled Whitebro McBeard as the lead, my interest to play naturally saps away. But I dont spend time criticizing art/what execs think will sell. My personal lack of a sale and then me going out to support something different, and more interesting, is enough input from me hopefully.

 

[evrecheto]

But it isn't fixing itself. Men are still blessed with many exclusive protagonist roles, and most new roles for women either put them as a co-star or as a gender option for an avatar character.

The market will be the agent of change and not you or anything else.

Great games with females leads are becoming more popular because people want to play them, not because people demand a quota or fairness.

Let artist have a say in what they make but also respect that fact that they have to eat.

 

[Nirolak]

I updated the title to reflect that they were referring to exclusively female leads and added the following chart to the OP:

She didn't list the games so I couldn't double check them.

 

[Lime]

The point is that the disparity is fixing itself

"just kick back, wait and everything will fix itself."

 

[Lime]

I find it beyond obnoxious not to count games that let you play both a male and a female.

The step in the right direction is representing both sides equally, not "yeah no male leads !".

But that's what the data is pointing out...that the 3 % vs 41 % is unequal.

EDIT: whoops, double post, sorry about that.

 

[diamount]

Strange thing to focus on. This is definitely trying to inflame something.

 

[Crimsonsky]

That's pretty misleading. Most games offer a choice. Also, what would be an acceptable number here? You can just blurt out headlines for the shock/troll value, but they can be dismissed just as readily. We would need values. What do you want and what are you willing to give for it? Don't expect 50% of games to star women when 80% of the people who purchase games are male. I made both of those numbers up just to illustrate a point. In order to cater to a market it has to be there.

 

[Fliesen]

I vote with my wallet; not even intentionally. If a game has grizzled Whitebro McBeard as the lead, my interest to play naturally saps away. But I dont spend time criticizing art/what execs think will sell. My personal lack of a sale and then me going out to support something different, and more interesting, is enough input from me hopefully.

That concept is being thrown around a lot, but that's not how it can always work. That's how it works if there's a wide variety of equally viable alternatives.

If you live in a small town with 1 restaurant and there's no vegan / vegetarian items on the menu, there's no "vote with your wallet, just don't eat there". Unless you want to cook at home. - the only way to let them know is to tell the chef / manager to please offer more vegetarian meals.

Similarly, the games industry doesn't count "lost sales due to lack of female representation". How would they even do that? Where's the number of "copies of Gears of War not sold because of the lack of a female protagonist"
You're not "voting" with your wallet. You're abstaining.

That's pretty misleading. Most games offer a choice. Also, what would be an acceptable number here? You can just blurt out headlines for the shock/troll value, but they can be dismissed just as readily. We would need values. What do you want and what are you willing to give for it? Don't expect 50% of games to star women when 80% of the people who purchase games are male. I made both of those numbers up just to illustrate a point. In order to cater to a market it has to be there.

Clearly. Your 'contribution' to this thread and your comments on things that have already been discussed, as well as the fact that nothing here is 'misleading' if you were to read the actual article ... is pretty redundant

 

[Aquillion]

That's pretty misleading. Most games offer a choice. Also, what would be an acceptable number here? You can just blurt out headlines for the shock/troll value, but they can be dismissed just as readily. We would need values. What do you want and what are you willing to give for it? Don't expect 50% of games to star women when 80% of the people who purchase games are male. I made both of those numbers up just to illustrate a point. In order to cater to a market it has to be there.

Actually roughly 48% of US gamers are female. Source.

 

[CrazyDude]

Actually roughly 48% of US gamers are female. Source.

What do they consider gamers? Some polls include people who play mobiles games as gamers.

 

[zeioIIDX]

Strange thing to focus on. This is definitely trying to inflame something.

Honesly, I just focus on the damn video games...but hey, I suppose I'm contributing to the problem. I likes what I likes though and that involves games of all types. If a dev makes a games with a female main character where you aren't allowed to change the gender, so be it. I play it if it's something I like. If they don't, I don't have any direct influence over that as a consumer short of making demands either vocally or I suppose by protesting (not buying said game).

I only speak for myself but I know for a fact I'm not the only one that is apathetic towards this. I say this as a straight black dude. I just play the games. I personally don't take issue with a game not letting me choose a darker skin tone for my character and other things like that. Obviously I realize people want a broader representation of humanity though. But like others have said, I feel that it shouldn't be done just to appease people and it shouldn't be forced. A studio will come up with whatever story and characters they want, it's no different from movies, TV, books, broadway, etc. Of course the difference with video games is the fact that they are playable, interactive...and that's why I believe this whole thing is such an issue where video games are concerned.

Anita and others like her seem to be fighting for a cause and I respect that. I do think it's ridiculous for people to be getting banned in here for sharing his/her opinion when it doesn't side with the popular opinion or how we should feel but yeah, some remarks in here have been straight-up rude. I know this will be taken the wrong way but I think it would be pretty cool if Anita and Co. got together to make games that they want to play which showcase the representation they want to see. Easier said than done, sure, but change isn't easy and it won't be had by merely talking about it or bringing it to people's attention. You also can't force devs to make games that you want because hey, there are other people out there who want those same devs to make games that they want on top of the fact that devs are going to make what they want to play (or what they think will sell to a broad market).

 

[A Link to the Past]

I see so many of these:

"I just don't get why anyone cares."

"I don't see gender and/or race in my games, I just see games."

"They're just trying to make things look worse."

"They're trying to tell game devs what they can and cannot do."

To which I say:

"Listen more. It's fine that you don't care, but others do, so please respect that. No one is forcing you to agree."

"Not all people have the same ability to disregard that kind of stuff when looking at games, and as such they feel compelled to criticize these aspects when it is believed that they are failing."

"No they aren't, they're looking at a specific figure of the industry. It's great that you can choose to play as a girl in so many games, but the fact that nearly half of all games at E3 only allow you to be a man and almost none of them only allow you to be a woman is rather telling of the bias of the industry."

"No one is. Speaking up against something you do not like about a game product is not silencing them anymore than it is silencing them by voting with your wallet."

The market will be the agent of change and not you or anything else.

Great games with females leads are becoming more popular because people want to play them, not because people demand a quota or fairness.

Let artist have a say in what they make but also respect that fact that they have to eat.

Markets don't change if no one pressures them to do so. Games are more diverse because it became an issue that they weren't. The Oscars are being repaired (or at least are being given token fixing) because people spoke up. The video game industry will stay the course until it begins to affect them in a negative fashion.

 

[diaspora]

tbh, God of War would have been more interesting if it was a demo of a mother teaching her son to hunt.

 

[Lime]

That's pretty misleading. Most games offer a choice. Also, what would be an acceptable number here? You can just blurt out headlines for the shock/troll value, but they can be dismissed just as readily. We would need values. What do you want and what are you willing to give for it? Don't expect 50% of games to star women when 80% of the people who purchase games are male. I made both of those numbers up just to illustrate a point. In order to cater to a market it has to be there.

What do they consider gamers? Some polls include people who play mobiles games as gamers.

for the fourth time to both you: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=207578024&postcount=304

tbh, God of War would have been more interesting if it was a demo of a mother teaching her son to hunt.

True. GOW (dad genre) and Days Gone (white dude with traumatic past losing his wife) had my eyes rolling

 

[ViewtifulJC]

tbh, God of War would have been more interesting if it was a demo of a mother teaching her son to hunt.

I disagree. I think God of War is interesting because its Kratos, and the history and character he brings, to mold him into this father role, to see him in a new light and a new context. You dont get that with a brand new character.

Days Gone tho, whoof. Boy did that shit looked tired and derivative. Red Dead Redemption 2 must've been cut at the last minute for them to think to end the show with that game.

 

[darkinstinct]

This is about representation, so I feel that it counts. They shifted from male Sheppard as representation of Mass Effect to a female lead.

Representation of what? I love to play female characters, I do so in every game I can. I especially like playing lesbian characters (like Mass Effect), probably because I love women. Now I would think that similarly women would prefer to play some hot dude over playing a women. After all in the standard third person game you're looking at that ass for the better part of 10 hours. But aren't both majorly flawed? I mean when did we get the last average looking lead character in a game? I can only think of Trevor in GTA V. Everybody else is (no matter if they are male or female) astonishingly good looking. Not exactly a representation of reality.

 

[Kak.efes]

tbh, God of War would have been more interesting if it was a demo of a mother teaching her son to hunt.

Goddess of War. Featuring post-op MtF Kratos, now named Kratola.

 

[Fliesen]

I disagree. I think God of War is interesting because its Kratos, and the history and character he brings, to mold him into this father role, to see him in a new light and a new context. You dont get that with a brand new character.

Days Gone tho, whoof. Boy did that shit looked tired and derivative. Red Dead Redemption 2 must've been cut at the last minute for them to think to end the show with that game.

haha, made me chuckle. Nice one

 

[TimeEffect]

for the fourth time to both you: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=207578024&postcount=304

True. GOW (dad genre) and Days Gone (white dude with traumatic past losing his wife) had my eyes rolling

Do you think GOW and Days Gone would work with a female lead? Do you think those games would include female enemies? Or would a game like Days Gone default to just male enemies?

I feel a game like Days Gone would default to male leads because enemies themselves (humans) would be male.

I feel as if more violent games will default to male on male violence. While Recore stars a female lead, it doesnt have anywhere near the violence. When it comes to extremely violent games, I imagine devs stray away from including women as leads and including women to kill.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

God of War has had female enemies/boss fights since forever

 

[Llyrwenne]

I see so many of these:

"I just don't get why anyone cares."

"I don't see gender and/or race in my games, I just see games."

"They're just trying to make things look worse."

"They're trying to tell game devs what they can and cannot do."

I'll add the "I'm ok with [ Female / LGBT+ / minority character ] as long as they are well written." / "They shouldn't be shoehorned in." type arguments we also see come up way too much during these kinds of discussions.

 

[diaspora]

I disagree. I think God of War is interesting because its Kratos, and the history and character he brings, to mold him into this father role, to see him in a new light and a new context. You dont get that with a brand new character.

Days Gone tho, whoof. Boy did that shit looked tired and derivative. Red Dead Redemption 2 must've been cut at the last minute for them to think to end the show with that game.

I would have found the mixing up the main character by introducing a dynamic between mother and son within the universe they're building to be more interesting tbh. My thing is just I've seen the paternal relationship in action games already, short of the weird bullshit they did with Samus in Other M, we haven't really seen a maternal one tackled in the genre. Kratos isn't bad for who he is, I just would have found it more interesting if the mixed up the dynamic by using a women and mother.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I find it beyond obnoxious not to count games that let you play both a male and a female.

They did count them, where do you think the other 97% are

The step in the right direction is representing both sides equally, not "yeah no male leads !".

Not only is this an obvious strawman but it's also not anyone's,

Spoiler

probably someone's

, intention.

I mean, considering that Detroit doesn't feature "a" female lead is just sad. Kara is gonna be a crucial part of the game. Same for Nier 2 etc...

If we get nitpicky then Detroit didn't feature a female protagonist whatsoever this E3, Kara was a noshow. Nier 2 wasn't shown at all,... it isn't a meta analysis of all games in the industry it's an analysis of what publishers decided to show the world at the biggest gaming show of the year.

And more importantly, if they have a story to tell, like Horizon, the lead makes perfect sense.

Just like it makes sense to have a male for God of War 4.

God of War doesn't need to change protagonists but it would have worked just as well with say Freyja, who contrary to Kratos is actually a god of war in norse mythology.

I'm glad you have games like Mass Effect that lets you choose, and games like Detroit that give equal importance to the characters, regardless of their gender.

Yes having both is good.

 

[TimeEffect]

God of War has had female enemies/boss fights since forever

I think GOW can get away with that because you are fighting goddesses, and the smaller fodder enemies are insignificant. I think games like Last of Us are and Days Gone seem to realistic and the violence too personal.

 

[Lime]

Do you think GOW and Days Gone would work with a female lead? Do you think those games would include female enemies? Or would a game like Days Gone default to just male enemies?

I feel a game like Days Gone would default to male leads because enemies themselves (humans) would be male.

I feel as if more violent games will default to male on male violence. While Recore stars a female lead, it doesnt have anywhere near the violence. When it comes to extremely violent games, I imagine devs stray away from including women as leads and including women to kill.

Yes I wouldn't have any problem with female to male violence.

And I don't think days gone went with the most generic option of all time in their zombie game set in the US because of male to make violence. They probably just did have the white American dude with a traumatic past because either Sony told them to or they don't actually realize how generic and uncreative it is to have zombie story number 14472737 about white dude who lost his wife set in the US

 

[Davide]

Why does it have to be exclusively female characters? Mass Effect is using the female version as default. Detroit has Kara (which wasn't shown because we already met her in the first trailer).

This is nitpicking.

This.

49% in which you can play as either gender, that's huge.

 

[Lime]

Asking for equal representation when men have 47 percent vs 3 percent is not nitpicking

 

[diaspora]

lol, wanting more than 3% representation isn't particularly onerous mang

It doesn't even mean having to change existing properties you love- introduce new ones.

 

[Spyware]

Asking for equal representation when men have 47 percent vs 3 percent is not nitpicking

Exactly.
And again, a female skin on a character that isn't always female isn't the same as a female character that is written with a female point of view in mind. And he same for males of course.
Walking Dead wouldn't be the same if Clem was a boy. Or if Lee was a woman.

Yes, we all love that more games let us choose. But there should be more games that do not let us choose and makes us play females. No we are not saying that developers have to change their vision, we are asking for other devs doing other things, more exposure to the devs that already make female protag only games and so on.

 

[diaspora]

I want to reiterate, this isn't a matter of simply replacing old established characters with new one, but if you're going to introduce new games why not have them with women leading them?

 

[Giever]

Asking for equal representation when men have 47 percent vs 3 percent is not nitpicking

Small correction: in this comparison men have 41%, not 47%, at least according to the link in the OP.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This.

49% in which you can play as either gender, that's huge.

It's not huge when 41% of games at E3 only allow you to play as a man.

Nothing huge about the big accomplishment for women in games being that men and women share some roles. I want to see some games that are actively based on a female character, not an avatar that can be female if you choose.

People want a more equal situation. Rarely are games written with a female character in mind, and the idea that gender options are adequate is allowing the industry to take the lazy path with respect to representation.

 

[Green Mamba]

This.

49% in which you can play as either gender, that's huge.

Read it another way.

52% of the games have playable female characters, optional or otherwise.

90% of the games have playable male characters, optional or otherwise.

You don't see a discrepancy?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

People want a more equal situation. Rarely are games written with a female character in mind, and the idea that gender options are adequate is allowing the industry to take the lazy path with respect to representation.

There is nothing lazy about modeling, testing, animating, polishing, voice acting, writing etc for two separate genders. That's a big time and money investment that goes into making both options viable.

 

[RowdyReverb]

I want to reiterate, this isn't a matter of simply replacing old established characters with new one, but if you're going to introduce new games why not have them with women leading them?

Real answer is that it's probably seen as a riskier move, and launching a new IP already entails a large amount of risk. Male protags have been a more tried and true marketing strategy. People have grown accustomed to playing as white males in games, even if they would rather play as somebody else. They are purposefully avoiding "rocking the boat", so to speak.

 

[Windforce]

Do we have numbers on PS4 and XB1 gamers' genders? The "48% of gamers are female" sound like they include all the girls playing Candy Crush on Facebook once a weekend. The actual "hardcore" player gender still feels like it is mostly composed by males (not saying I like it this way, I would love to see girls playing as much as we do but at least where I am and where I play - PS4 - , I see 90% or more of players I meet online or gaming deals sites are male).

Of course one thing does not justify the other; perhaps more female oriented games or games with female protagonists would draw more female gamers.

But as things are, it is understandable companies will try to cater to a predominant male audience.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm kind of seeing the glass half full and half empty at the same time. On one hand, the disparity is clear and should be addressed. On the other, the fact that over half of the games let you play as female sounds pretty awesome. Let's not forget not long ago companies got away with not including females in games with customizable avatars because it was "too hard".

I would love to have the data for former E3's and see if the trend for playable females is going up or down. Anyone with lots of free time and a generous streak willing to compile the data?

Do we have numbers on PS4 and XB1 gamers' genders? The "48% of gamers are female" sound like they include all the girls playing Candy Crush on Facebook once a weekend.

You have goddamn detailed statistics on this very specific point in this very thread, for crying out loud!

 

[diaspora]

Real answer is that it's probably seen as a riskier move, and launching a new IP already entails a large amount of risk. Male protags have been a more tried and true marketing strategy. People have grown accustomed to playing as white males in games, even if they would rather play as somebody else. They are purposefully avoiding "rocking the boat", so to speak.

IIRC most young men don't really care about the main character's gender either way. Challenge is selling a straight romance for a female main character.

Edit, half of PC RPG players are women. Enough with the Candy Crush/ Facebook bullshit

 

[Spyware]

There is nothing lazy about modeling, testing, animating, polishing, voice acting, writing etc for two separate genders. That's a big time and money investment that goes into making both options viable.

But they are not writing it for "two separate genders" in the games Link is talking about. That's exactly why it's the "lazy option". The option of writing and animating one single character and smack a female skin on it (FemShep uses the same animations as MaleShep for example) and hire a woman to record the exact same lines the man is also recording. That is what we get from most CC games. Okay yeah most often we do get separate animations, but it's still the easier way to make your game have a "female character" and "female representation" without having to actually make a female character with a female point of view.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Real answer is that it's probably seen as a riskier move, and launching a new IP already entails a large amount of risk. Male protags have been a more tried and true marketing strategy. People have grown accustomed to playing as white males in games, even if they would rather play as somebody else. They are purposefully avoiding "rocking the boat", so to speak.

So old franchises should keep their male main characters to avoid alienating their user bases, and new franchises should use male main characters because it's risky otherwise. While I agree that's probably how executives think, it's a truly depressing state of affairs not just for gender representation but creativity as a whole.

 

[RowdyReverb]

IIRC most young men don't really care about the main character's gender either way. Challenge is selling a straight romance for a female main character.

I could see how a romance would be difficult to pull off. It even gives me weird feelings making my female Fallout character sexually promiscuous to obtain perks.

And I won't argue that most guys don't care about the player character, but surely you would agree that a male protagonist would be viewed as safer, and in an industry which has become increasingly risk-averse, it should come as no surprise that change has been slow.

So old franchises should keep their male main characters to avoid alienating their user bases, and new franchises should use male main characters because it's risky otherwise. While I agree that's probably how executives think, it's a truly depressing state of affairs not just for gender representation but creativity as a whole.

You'll hear no argument from me

 

[A Link to the Past]

There is nothing lazy about modeling, testing, animating, polishing, voice acting, writing etc for two separate genders. That's a big time and money investment that goes into making both options viable.

It is creatively lazy. It's the response of giving hand-me-downs instead of designing characters for women rather than making men gender neutral.

 

[Permanently A]

I hope Horizon: Zero Dawn will be a big seller to show publishers that female protagonists can be successful.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I hope Horizon: Zero Dawn will be a big seller to show publishers that female protagonists can be successful.

I think there's problem a lot riding on Horizon in that area because Tomb Raider underperformed, Mirror's Edge tanked, and i'm almost certain that Dishonored 2 isn't going to do all that well. And if that does happen it'll mean three big AAA games with female leads will have underperformed or outright tanked.

 

[weekev]

I think the issue is that devs who actually think about this stuff, and consider how to be inclusive, will let you choose your gender.

Those that don't consider it because they are too entrenched in making their main character a stereotype or are making a sequel to something that has previously fallen foul of this will make the main character male.

I agree that there is an issue to be addressed up similarly if think it's good that over 50% of games give the choice to the player.

Minorities also seriously need more representation and this is coming from a white dude.

 

[Spyware]

The actual "hardcore" player gender still feels like it is mostly composed by males (not saying I like it this way, I would love to see girls playing as much as we do but at least where I am and where I play - PS4 - , I see 90% or more of players I meet online or gaming deals sites are male).

Yeah I don't think I know a single woman who plays online with any kind of gender indication. And I know quite a few "hardcore" gamers that are women. We use no voice chat and we have gender neutral or "manly" avatars and names. If we even play online games at all (I don't, MMOs being an exception and I'm always seen as male there).
We "hide" because we don't like how we are treated online if people find out that we don't have penises. We openly chat and play with friends of course, but never strangers. We've all thought "It can't be that bad. I'll try and see how it goes!" and then just nope-ing the hell out immediately.
I can't speak for every single woman but I bet me and the people I know are not alone in doing this. It's just too hostile of an environment most of the time.

 

[labx]

One game that wasn't shown this year was Hellblade. If it's suppose to release this year you'd think Sony would have something to show off.

I think there where rumors of this game being for VR so they have being creepy quite. The cool thing about this game (hoping that is not only VR) is that the game focuses in mental illness above and beyond gender.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

But they are not writing it for "two separate genders" in the games Link is talking about. That's exactly why it's the "lazy option". The option of writing and animating one single character and smack a female skin on it (FemShep uses the same animations as MaleShep for example) and hire a woman to record the exact same lines the man is also recording. That is what we get from most CC games. Okay yeah most often we do get separate animations, but it's still the easier way to make your game have a "female character" and "female representation" without having to actually make a female character with a female point of view.

A lot of CC games were never gonna have a defined male or female character with a specific male or female point of view. To get that, you need to look at the actual cast with their own specific stories, and personalities and motivations and point of views. Shepard from Mass Effect is a generic gender neutral avatar for the player to guide, but characters like Liara, Garrus, T'ali, Wrex, Samara, Aria...its really these characters, with their defined races and genders and sexuality and such, who provide all the story in these games.

Then you have something like Dishonored 2, which could have just as easily starred Corvo, the protagonist of the first game with all his readily defined powers. Instead, they also have Emily Caldwin, a very defined character with her own powers, her own desires, her own reactions to the plot that will happen. I guess you could fault them for including the protagonist of the first game at all. Personally, I look forward to play again as Corvo, using his distinct move set throughout the game and compare and contrast his reactions against Emily, so I'm in favor of this.

 

[Steroyd]

But they are not writing it for "two separate genders" in the games Link is talking about. That's exactly why it's the "lazy option". The option of writing and animating one single character and smack a female skin on it (FemShep uses the same animations as MaleShep for example) and hire a woman to record the exact same lines the man is also recording. That is what we get from most CC games. Okay yeah most often we do get separate animations, but it's still the easier way to make your game have a "female character" and "female representation" without having to actually make a female character with a female point of view.

What does that even mean? Especially for a Sci fi.

In the case of Mass Effect I'm just going to throw in another example Captain Janeway from Star Trek Voyager, she's captain of the ship and that's it, she never takes a more "motherly" or feminine approach to captaining the ship compared to Kirk, Picard or Sisko she has an objective she's the highest authority and gets shit done, replace her with a male character and there's not much if anything you need to change from a narrative perspective because gender isn't a factor and it never needed to be.

 

[Spyware]

A lot of CC games were never gonna have a defined male or female character with a specific male or female point of view. To get that, you need to look at the actual cast with their own specific stories, and personalities and motivations and point of views. Shepard from Mass Effect is a generic gender neutral avatar for the player to guide, but characters like Liara, Garrus, T'ali, Wrex, Samara, Aria...its really these characters, with their defined races and genders and sexuality and such, who provide all the story in these games.

Then you have something like Dishonored 2, which could have just as easily starred Corvo, the protagonist of the first game with all his readily defined powers. Instead, they also have Emily Caldwin, a very defined character with her own powers, her own desires, her own reactions to the plot that will happen. I guess you could fault them for including the protagonist of the first game at all. Personally, I look forward to play again as Corvo, using his distinct move set throughout the game and compare and contrast his reactions against Emily, so I'm in favor of this.

I adore most of BioWare's supporting cast so I agree about that. But the point was that devs can smack a female skin on their male protag and call the game representative and stuff. It's not the same thing as Mirror's Edge or Horizon or whatever game with an actual female protag. And ME can never be a game with "a female protag" in the same sense since Shep as a base basically has no gender.

Dishonored 1 is one of my all time fav games and I love that I will get to play as both Corvo and Emily in the sequel. They have made two very distinct characters (it seems) and it's far from the ME or "female skin on random avatar" cases. Dishonored 2 does everything right for me.

What does that even mean? Especially for a Sci fi.

I think it's pretty hard to explain and I'm literally dropping my phone in my face because I'm falling asleep. Let me get back to you tomorrow. You can also check the earlier posts I've made if you want. I've mentioned some of my feelings on this earlier in the thread.