• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Only 3% of games shown at E3 keynotes featured exclusively female protagonists

Spyware

Member
You said ME:A was 'as relevant to this topic as dental floss'. ME:A is relevant to feminism in gaming, so you must be of the opinion that that's not the topic we're discussing.
It's a small "win" that BioWare finally defaults a single protag to female even tho there is a choice and promote the game with the female skin and voice of their Protag X that is ultimately written without any regard to what gender it is. But it's still counted as a neutral "either" game since all games that default to male is also considered neutral. ME:A and Dishonored 2 get "honorable mentions" by both FF and many posters in the thread for promoting the female protag but that's pretty much it for this topic.
The topic is primarily about the 3 % vs 41 % numbers.
 

Two Words

Member
Okay, well if it's not counting women in games where gender is a choice, is it counting games that showers male protagonist where gender is a choice?
 

Darkwater

Member
Yes, a game that does not feature a female-exclusive character is not relevant to an article about games that feature a female-exclusive characters. Relevance is not established through a tangential connection. The article is about a specific element of feminism and representation in the industry that does not cover ME:A. Which is why it is not mentioned.

So it is about feminism, but only a specific part of feminism? What are these, playground rules?

Also, it is mentioned. In the pie chart. So I guess it is relevant, right?

Apparently you care more about complaining than actual progress.
 

Sephzilla

Member
I kind of feel like it's a little unfair to count sequels where the main character is the same as the previous game. I'd like to see the stats for new IPs that have one exclusive main character
 

Darkwater

Member
It's a small "win" that BioWare finally defaults a single protag to female even tho there is a choice and promote the game with the female skin and voice of their Protag X that is ultimately written without any regard to what gender it is. But it's still counted as a neutral "either" game since all games that default to male is also considered neutral. ME:A and Dishonored 2 get "honorable mentions" by both FF and many posters in the thread for promoting the female protag but that's pretty much it for this topic.
The topic is primarily about the 3 % vs 41 % numbers.

I don't disagree. But when Link says ME:A is as relevant as dental floss, I do disagree. Also, the fact that The Verge's headline makes it seem like it's a 3-97 split is bullshit.
 

Darkwater

Member
omg this article

jqvKL4O.gif
*
giphy.gif
*

* click

I regret everything.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
These arguments may have made sense a few years ago, but there is an over-abundance of female lead games now and tons more where you pick your gender.

Hopping onto old social commentary clickbait is just more boring trash game jurnalism. Fuel the flames of comments sections everywhere.
 

Spyware

Member
I don't disagree. But when Link says ME:A is as relevant as dental floss, I do disagree. Also, the fact that The Verge's headline makes it seem like it's a 3-97 split is bullshit.

Yeah, maybe a little hyperbolic, but all the "BUT MASS EFFECT" answers were a bit... off the mark. Even if it would be counted the change in percentage is minimal. It's not the head topic. The head topic is first of all the horribly small percentage but also the fact that it's worse than last year. :/
Edit: and yeah the factually wrong headline is bothering me a huge lot. Just add the word that makes it correct already!

52% + 90% = 142%

Somethin's wrong there.

52 is the percentage of games where it's possible to play as a female (3 % only female, 49 either) and 90 is the percentage of games where you can play a male (41 only male, 49 either). They are not meant to be added together since the "either" category is added to both.
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
You said ME:A was 'as relevant to this topic as dental floss'. ME:A is relevant to feminism in gaming, so you must be of the opinion that that's not the topic we're discussing.
It's not relevant since the thread is not "discuss about feminism in gaming". It's about the canyon between male/female only main characters in games presented at this year's conferences. Which you keep ignoring again and again and only relate to when it fits your "arguments". Even this one is, again, a strawman where you make up your discussion opponent, which is why I'm adoring link to still uphold a discussion with you.
Edit God lttp. Blaming my phone and my native language.
 
So it is about feminism, but only a specific part of feminism? What are these, playground rules?

Also, it is mentioned. In the pie chart. So I guess it is relevant, right?

Apparently you care more about complaining than actual progress.

1. ...

No, I'm telling you that this article is about one thing, and it's awfully neat when the article can be discussed as opposed to having a discussion with someone who is annoyed that the article exists. If you want to discuss ME:A, the idea of games with female as the default gender choice, or whatever else, you can make a thread for that. This is not a thread about ME:A. There are no "playground rules." It is a routine and normal thing that if you have something you want to talk about that's not really relevant to the subject of the article, you can discuss it elsewhere. Complaining that an article about games where female is the only option doesn't mention games where you can choose your gender makes no sense.

2. It is mentioned in the source that the article used for this specific aspect of information. The article is not about that, and it is entirely normal for an article to be based on only a portion of another article.

3. You really should make sure to consider the irony of accusing someone of complaining when the literal only reason we're speaking right now to each other is because you got annoyed by this article's existence and complained about it.
 

Izuna

Banned
I prefer the female representation in games where you can choose your gender. Something about games that force the gender seem to really give the character typical feminine tropes.

I would like to see a character like my female Saints Row girl as a forced lead.

As much as I don't care for Mirror's Edge Catalyst, Faith is cool too.

I think this is the problem. Most developers only make a female lead to make a "very female" character, and that's where they trip up. The creative industry needs to be more accessible, and then we'll see more diversity.

--

My Shepherd was a dude though. I was excited to see them include my skin colour. I heard FemShep is awesome.

2 random examples, 7% of both US Marines and fire fighters are women.

Not 50%. Just saying.

Elaborate.
 
Isn't that kind of... Good?

No, not really. While it is good in a vacuum that options for women have risen dramatically through the implementation of gender options, the fact that the rise has games exclusively starring female protagonists is really depressing.

It is not an issue that men "shouldn't" be able to play as men in a game, but it just bothers me how many options men have vs. women, including and especially games where "male" is the only option.
 

Izuna

Banned
No, not really. While it is good in a vacuum that options for women have risen dramatically through the implementation of gender options, the fact that the rise has games exclusively starring female protagonists is really depressing.

It is not an issue that men "shouldn't" be able to play as men in a game, but it just bothers me how many options men have vs. women, including and especially games where "male" is the only option.

That, and the representation was larger before. I can name a dozen games for SEGA Saturn where you're forced to play as a female.

What's happening is that the games where they want to give us a female lead, are also including a male option now.
 

Intel_89

Member
I wouldn't mind if it was 3% male or female, as long as we get great games and well written characters, regardless of their gender.
 

Jobbs

Banned
I'll probably never make a game with a male protagonist. Years of gravelly voiced tough guys ruined it for me in general
 

Lime

Member
The topic is primarily about the 3 % vs 41 % numbers.

This needs to be chiseled in the OP considering the way that some people think that optional female characters somehow make up for the low 3 % number of female-exclusive game.

These arguments may have made sense a few years ago, but there is an over-abundance of female lead games now and tons more where you pick your gender.

but these statistics show that there aren't, at least at the E3 conferences
 
That, and the representation was larger before. I can name a dozen games for SEGA Saturn where you're forced to play as a female.

What's happening is that the games where they want to give us a female lead, are also including a male option now.

Are SEGA games more prone to feature female protagonists would you say? I was never a SEGA person myself growing up so I'm uneducated :v
 

labx

Banned
Persona 5 counts, no? The party is full of powerful girls. The POV is from the male protagonist but still counts for me tho.

I think the problem with Anita, is that she has a generalization problem. She wants to think that all women thinks like her. And that is biased and distorted. I something have a feeling that the first one that is bringing down women is her with generalized assumptions like:


"...We live in a culture that regularly encourages girls and women to project themselves onto and fully empathize with male characters, but rarely encourages boys and men to fully project themselves onto female characters," Feminist Frequency's post reads. "When players are encouraged to see a game universe exclusively through the eyes of a humanized female character, it helps challenge the idea that men can’t or shouldn’t identify with women as full human beings."

what?

She thinks that women are dumb? There is a thing call heteroreference and autoreference in psychology and of course "insight". What is her mayor? or bachelor degree? She has to go deep and study MORE for chist sake. If she thinks that a video game is capable of make a scission in the psyche of a women and break her spirit, identity and self, she thinks poorly of the women psyche. The protagonist of whatever mean is only a vehicle for you to understand the plot or reality that has being told. If men didn't project themselves into female characters or narratives in every day basis there wouldn't be something call empty and relationships.

She need to read more about Jung, Darwin, Fisher, Blackmore and even Dawkins theories. If a man can't project himself into a woman it is imposible to make a bond.

Anita is exploiting an Ideology with a lot of gray areas making women the weaker sex knowing that is the strong sex because is the only one capable of carry on our linage.
 
In a fit of boredom, I tried to look at all the games presented at all the conferences and whether you could choose a female character and if not, why not.

EA Conference:

Titanfall 2: the single player story is about a man and his robot. No doubt inspired by the many "A Boy and His Dog" style narratives that happen over the years. He's a completely new protagonist so he could've been a woman, but he just isn't. Female pilots are selectable in multiplayer, and in my experience with the first game they seem like the majority of online just cuz they look cooler(see also: Splatoon).

Mass Effect: Andromeda: The protagonist they decided to showcase is a woman named Ryder. There is also an option to play as a man, different skin tones, same sex romance, etc as previous Mass Effects have done in the past.

FIFA '17: The Journey: As a video game representing the popular sport of FIFA, all the playable characters seem to be male. That makes sense.

Fe: Stars one of those little creature things so popular in indie games. Im not sure what the gender is, maybe they can be left to player imagination.

Battlefield 1: There is a female protagonist in the campaign mode. However, there are no female characters in the popular multiplayer mode because "the core audience of boys wouldn't find them believable" if former DICE coder Amandine Coget is to be believed. LOL

Bethsada Conference:

Quake: Champions: A class based shooter in the vein of Overwatch, so female characters are expected. In fact, 1 of the four characters shown was a woman with distinctive blue hair and the ability to teleport.

Elder Scrolls Legends: Well there isn't really a protagonist in a card game like this. There are male characters and there are female characters.

Fallout 4 DLC: As tradition, you can choose a man or woman in Fallout.

Skyrim HD: Same thing.

Prey: Debuted with a male protagonist named Morgan Yu. However, like most Bethsada games here, they intentionally gave the protagonist a gender neutral name so you can choose to be a man or a woman.

Dishonored 2: Emily Kaldwin seems to be the one all the marketing is based around, and the one with all the gameplay demonstrations. But you can play as the previous protagonist and her father, Corvo, if you desire.

UbiSoft conference:

Just Dance 2017: As much I can decipher from this utterly bizarre showcase, there are male dancers and there are female dancers.

Ghost Recon: Wildlands: Demonstrated with a male protagonist. However, player customization will allow you to play as a woman if you want.

South Park: The Fractured But Whole Male character protagonists, which makes sense since its an adaptation of a show with male protagonists.

The Division: Underground DLC for the Division, a game with a character creator allowing for male or female characters, although this one was marketed with a man.

Eagle Flight: You play as an Eagle. IDK if their male or female eagles. They had male and female gamers on stage to demostrate with names like Andre and Victoria...IDK lol

Star Trek Bridge Crew: VR game where you get to do all the button pressing shit the crew on the Enterprise do. Not really sure there's a protagonist here...I guess the captain could count, which we saw could be a man or a woman in the trailer so.

For Honor: Demonstrated with a male character. However, I do know there are options for female knights in the game as well, IDK Im not sure about the single player component.

Grow Up: A sequel to Grow Home using the established male character of Bud. I suppose they could have included a female companion in here, but IDK...he's a little red robot thing who makes cartoon noises. The only gender he has is his name.

Trials of the Blood Dragon: Male or female characters for the player to choose.

Watch_Dogs 2: Stars a (black!) male protagonist named Marcus.

Steep: Open world MMO thing a ma jig with male or female characters

Microsoft Conference:

Gears of War 4: JD Fenix is the default player 1 protagonist. Its a fully co-op game however, so you could find yourself exclusively playing the whole game with Kait Diaz, who has own motivation for going on this adventure seeing as her mother and her entire village were captured by the Swarm(the antagonists). This is the inciting incident that sets the plot in motion.

Killer Instinct: A fighting game featuring male and female characters. Showed off the popular General RAAM from Gears of War being added to the cast, who is a man.

Forza Horizon: A driving/racing game. Probably an unnamed guy you'll never see behind the wheel. Not like it matters. The cars are the protagonists, they're gender neutral.

ReCore: Stars a female protagonist named Joule.

Final Fantasy XV: Stars Noctis, and his all-boy crew of friends! We've been over this, the developers wanted a specific story between male bonding, thats just the way it is. Like it, dont like it, but we've known this for years and it wasnt gonna change this year, either.

Minecraft: Had a female speaker playing a female character on stage.

We Happy Few: Stars a male protagonist. Probably could have been a woman, the developers just chose a man.

Gwent: Uh, its a card game. There are male characters on cards and female characters on cards.

Tekken 7: Showcased Heihachi vs Akuma, two male characters. However, since this is primarily a multiplayer fighting game, the entire cast is up for grabs, which include plenty of various women.

Dead Rising 4: Features established protagonist Frank West, who is a man. Could have been a new female character, but bringing back a popular character like Frank makes sense from a marketing sense.

Scalebound: Stars a male protagonist. Could've been a woman, but the developers chose a man.

Sea of Thieves: Demonstrated with a bunch of guys, but I think its one of those character customization things where you can just kinda choose whatever your pirate wants to look like. Going by the marketing, there were will be female pirates to play as.

State of Decay 2: A co-op ensemble game featuring male and female characters are capable of the same actions. I'm sure default player 1 will be a guy, though.

Halo Wars 2: RTS game where aliens and soldiers battle it out. Im sure most of the space marines are men, but I do know the last game had "Hero Units", and one of them was a female spartan named Alice.

Sony Conference:

God of War: Stars established franchise protagonist Kratos. I supposed they could have changed him a woman, but there was about the same chance of that happening as the next Tomb Raider starring somebody not named Lara Croft. When Kratos steps out of the shadows and says, "I am hungry", there's a huge amount of excitement because they recognize him and the series he represents.

Days Gone: Stars male protagonist named...man this game was so forgettable I dont know his name. Some biker dude.

The Last Guardian: Stars a boy and his big dog chicken bird thing. Probably inspired by the huge amount of A Boy and his Dog narratives out there. Could have been a woman, but it isn't.

Horizon: Zero Dawn: Stars female protagonist Aloy. Could have been a man, but it isn't.

Detroit: Become Human - The protagonist marketed here is a man, but the game actually has multiple protagonists like Heavy Rain. One of them is Kara they showed last year.

Resident Evil VII - I dont know about this game. They said in the real game you play as a different character than the demo and the trailer, which is just some generic white dude. Maybe the real game has some actual characters?

Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare - Unlike Black Ops 3 where you can choose a generic male or female character, the developers wanted to focus on a specific story of Captain Nick Reyes. While the story promises to have several key female characters both in peer and mentor roles, Captain Nick Reyes will remain a man.

Skylanders: IDK anything about Skylanders. I assume you can play with female characters, but today they wanted to show off the long lost 90s mascot character Crash Bandicoot, who is a male.

Lego Star Wars: The Force Awakens - I think you take on different characters depending on the stage, but considering this is almost a direct representation of Star Wars: The Force Awakens, the protagonist is safe to assume is Rey, the female scavenger from Jakku.

Death Stranding - Norman Reedus is a man.

Spider-Man - Stars the established super popular character of Spider-Man. Who is a man, in case the name and the character's entire history didn't tip you off.

Nintendo:

Pokemon: Sun and Moon - Players can select either a male or female trainer to play the game with.

Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - Because of the delicate balance of the Triforce or some other inane bullshit, Link can't be a woman. He can be a bunny, a wolf, a chef, a fisherman, a shadow, a cartoon, a wizard, but being a woman would just be weird despite the in-canon reasons for incarnations establish no need for him to be a male every time.

Paper Mario: Sticker Star 2: Stars famed video game icon Mario. Who will probably always be a man.
 

Izuna

Banned
Are SEGA games more prone to feature female protagonists would you say? I was never a SEGA person myself growing up so I'm uneducated :v

No that's not what I meant. I probably shouldn't have thrown up a specific example, but female leads in games before were far more common at least.

Though I should take the time to backup my claim. =P
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
No that's not what I meant. I probably shouldn't have thrown up a specific example, but female leads in games before were far more common at least.

Though I should take the time to backup my claim. =P
To be fair though, plenty of the female leads of old were used mostly as something sexy to look at. Mostly!
 

Iorv3th

Member
I wonder what exactly the games are that where chosen and how they broke it down I looked at her site and it doesn't list all of the games. But:

Of the 59 games featured, only 11 are nonviolent or appear as if they might not have mechanics involving combat or violence. (The card games Gwent and Elder Scrolls Legends use cards to symbolize battle, but we opted to count these two as nonviolent games.) In other words, about four out of every five games showcased employ combat mechanics

This probably explains a lot of it with the violence.
 

Pacotez

Member
It's a small "win" that BioWare finally defaults a single protag to female even tho there is a choice and promote the game with the female skin and voice of their Protag X that is ultimately written without any regard to what gender it is. But it's still counted as a neutral "either" game since all games that default to male is also considered neutral. ME:A and Dishonored 2 get "honorable mentions" by both FF and many posters in the thread for promoting the female protag but that's pretty much it for this topic.
The topic is primarily about the 3 % vs 41 % numbers.

The problem being that should the 3vs41% matter when you could go for the gender choosing approach which IMO is way better?
 

mephel

Member
The last two Tomb Raiders are literally what you are describing: a woman mauling and killing men in extremely brutal ways throughout the game. It's why TR2013 is the only game I have ever used the "remove game permanently from Steam library" feature on.

Tomb Raider 2013's success shows that a woman killing men in extremely brutal ways is acceptable in society. The reverse wouldn't.
it's both extremely funny and worrying that not a single person vehemently arguing for 50:50 split cares about the fact that enemies in games are predominantly white males (ie those being mauled and shot)
 
The problem being that should the 3vs41% matter when you could go for the gender choosing approach which IMO is way better?

The best option would be an equal distribution of male-exclusive, female-exclusive, and gender option.

it's both extremely funny and worrying that not a single person vehemently arguing for 50:50 split cares about the fact that enemies in games are predominantly white males (ie those being mauled and shot)

Plenty of people have complained about this.
 

FartOfWar

Banned
Because it does nothing to challenge the status quo. As long as most men can play as a man, they'll pick that option and never experience that game as a woman. So their views won't be challenged.
This is demonstrably false. Seems you arent accustomed to having your views challenged.
 
No that's not what I meant. I probably shouldn't have thrown up a specific example, but female leads in games before were far more common at least.

Though I should take the time to backup my claim. =P

I really doubt that is the case. The vast majority of female characters also came from games where you had a choice back in the ps1 era and beyond. If you count japanese only games things might be a little different, because there seem to a good number of female exclusive characters in genres like visual novels, but doing quick seaches in different databases definitely makes it seem like choice (in fighting games, brawlers, RPG's, etc.) was where most female characters came from.

And it makes sense, there's a reason games like Tomb Raider or even Ms. Pac-Man was groundbreaking back in the day.
 

evrecheto

Banned
Sounds like that articles numbers are a bit hazy and forced to say what the author wants.

Horizon is one of the best games of the show because it looks awesome. The protagonist happens to be female but it is not make or break for the game. Let the game designers make their vision balanced with having to make money in order to keep their way of life going.
 
Sounds like that articles numbers are a bit hazy and forced to say what the author wants.

Horizon is one of the best games of the show because it looks awesome. The protagonist happens to be female but it is not make or break for the game. Let the game designers make their vision balanced with having to make money in order to keep their way of life going.

Pointing out the disparity of male-exclusive games vs. female-exclusive games is not preventing them from making the games they want to make.
 

eso76

Member
FIFA '17: The Journey: As a video game representing the popular sport of FIFA, all the playable characters seem to be male. That makes sense.

Forza Horizon: A driving/racing game. Probably an unnamed guy you'll never see behind the wheel. Not like it matters. The cars are the protagonists, they're gender neutral.

Didn't Fifa 16 start including female football teams ? Or am I imagining things ?
Was this left out of Fifa 17 and, if that's the case, why ?

As for Forza Horizon, judging from the footage i've seen of the game in cockpit view, you can play as a woman. Or as a guy who likes wearing nail polish, i guess.
 
No, not really. While it is good in a vacuum that options for women have risen dramatically through the implementation of gender options, the fact that the rise has games exclusively starring female protagonists is really depressing.

It is not an issue that men "shouldn't" be able to play as men in a game, but it just bothers me how many options men have vs. women, including and especially games where "male" is the only option.

I think I don't get what you're saying: So, you prefer games to have the option to choose between genders but having 52% of the total of the games shown is not good enough?

Then you say is not an issue to be a male and be forced to play as a female.

I think most of the games shown at E3 are usually played by a demographic composed by men so I actually don't find surprising that most of the games shown at the conferences are targeted to us; at the same time though, it is good that the majority of those games targeted to men have the option to play as a female, therefore in the future you'll have more females playing those games and the percentage of female protagonists or the option to play those games as a woman will rise even more.
 
I think I don't get what you're saying: So, you prefer games to have the option to choose between genders but having 52% of the total of the games shown is not good enough?

Then you say is not an issue to be a male and be forced to play as a female.

I think most of the games shown at E3 are usually played by a demographic composed by men so I actually don't find surprising that most of the games shown at the conferences are targeted to us; at the same time though, it is good that the majority of those games targeted to men have the option to play as a female, therefore in the future you'll have more females playing those games and the percentage of female protagonists or the option to play those games as a woman will rise even more.

I am saying that in terms of games written with a female protagonist in mind, it is more difficult to find these games than it is to find games written with a male protagonist in mind.
 

FirmBizBws

Becomes baffled, curling up into a ball when confronted with three controller options.

Judging by the data provided, the majority of AAA gamers are male. So maybe those who are seeking what I assume to be protagonist equality, to pressure those who make mobile titles to use female protagonists.

Personally I would like to see more quality, but it has to make sense. It shouldn't just be "lets have equality just because", look at the FPS data, you want me to market Jane Smoth to Dude Bro shooter?

It has to make sense.
 
Didn't Fifa 16 start including female football teams ? Or am I imagining things ?
Was this left out of Fifa 17 and, if that's the case, why ?

As for Forza Horizon, judging from the footage i've seen of the game in cockpit view, you can play as a woman. Or as a guy who likes wearing nail polish, i guess.

Ah, I forgot about that. I was thinking about the new Story Mode they included in FIFA 17, which you can only play through as Premier League club, which are all men. Understandable given the amount of variables a game like this has. But yes, Im sure they wouldn't backtrack on including women in the game after FIFA '16.

In fact, just looked it up, there are at least 12 women's national teams in FIFA '17. So there ya go!

And I suppose you're right about Horizon, I just dont think most people will care one way or the other. But if you do, there ya go.
 
Didn't Fifa 16 start including female football teams ? Or am I imagining things ?
Was this left out of Fifa 17 and, if that's the case, why ?

As for Forza Horizon, judging from the footage i've seen of the game in cockpit view, you can play as a woman. Or as a guy who likes wearing nail polish, i guess.
He's talking about the single-player story mode of FIFA 17, which focuses on a black man, which like Joe said, in context, makes sense.

EDIT: ^^^beaten
 
One game that wasn't shown this year was Hellblade. If it's suppose to release this year you'd think Sony would have something to show off.
 

YaBish

Member
So I was thinking about what the end goal for gender equality in video games would be. And I think for me that the answer is somewhere along the lines of 25% of games featuring a male protagonist exclusively, 25% of games featuring a female protagonist exclusively, and 50% of games featuring a choice between genders with equal marketing opportunities between both.

It really isn't that hard to replace a lot of male characters in games with female characters.

Sadly, I think that this is something that seems a tad outrageous to some folks, and won't come about anytime soon. We are making slow progress though.
 
Top Bottom