Dragon Puncher
Member
Yeah, I agree. Wasn't saying we have equality now, just that it seems silly to only see "female only protagonist" games as the only ones that counts towards equality in the industry.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Only 3% of games shown at E3 keynotes featured exclusively female protagonists
- Thread starter Spring Drive
- Start date
Yeah, I agree. Wasn't saying we have equality now, just that it seems silly to only see "female only protagonist" games as the only ones that counts towards equality in the industry.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Does it actually though?
UltimaPooh
Member
But wasn't the woman character shown as the main?
Question, is it possible that it's not the overall industry, but the kind of games showcased at E3? A quick google tells me the split is incredibly skewed toward a male audience in FPS's and action games, the main showcase at E3. Not sure how accurate this study id though.
http://toucharcade.com/2015/11/17/men-and-women-love-endless-runners/
http://i.imgur.com/fR9wmX1.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/OQjiv2C.jpg[IMG]
Character driven games like those that get shown at conferences tend to skew action, sports and FPS-y[/QUOTE]
[quote="MMaRsu, post: 207575333"]Any source for that? If that's truly the case then I'm very surprised there are not more games that feature female protagonists.
And maybe it has something to do with the country I live in ( The Netherlands ) but I've not met a lot of women who are into videogames. Doesnt mean they dont exist, just that in my experience almost every guy plays videogames but women rarely do.
And yeah obviously not talking about mobile games and facebook games.[/QUOTE]
[quote="Taruranto, post: 207575999"]You know, posting over and over that [URL="You know, posting over and over that dubious poll doesn't really help anybody, since if women were actually 52% of gamers, it would imply they are more than fine with the status quo and the current industry."]dubious [/URL]poll doesn't really help anybody, since if women were actually 52% of gamers, it would imply they are more than fine with the status quo and the current industry.[/QUOTE]
[quote="MMaRsu, post: 207576305"]I havent looked into it, and maybe that study is worthwhile but once again, what is the sample size?
I just find it hard to believe that worldwide there is such a low discrepancy between female and male gamers who own and actively play console games.[/QUOTE]
[quote="Spork4000, post: 207576876"]The big issue in this study is that it doesn't really go into who's using the console. Anecdotal, but if you were to ask my mom in 2005 if she owned a game console she'd say yes, but me and my brother were the ones who used them. It doesn't account for family ownership.[/QUOTE]
Since people are once again trying to doubt reality in the composition of gaming audiences in North America and Europe, there's this:
[URL="http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=924469"]Active console gamers at 60/40 gender split, usage data & genre preferences revealed[/URL]
[quote="Nirolak, post: 137161285"]And their findings are... that they're not really that different for people on the same platform type.
Source: [url]http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-30-platform-not-gender-drives-gamer-differences-eedar[/url]
[IMG]http://abload.de/img/platform-not-gender-dftse6.jpg
Women compose 57.8% of mobile market, 53.6% of the RPG market, 34% of the FPS market, 50% of PC market including social.
Approximately 1/3rd of console and PC gamers are also women (Second Source: Gamasutra)
Maybe there are fewer female gamers because there are fewer games with female leads.
Puppet Shadow
Member
Well, ya.
According to this study, the most common gamer is a college educated, female Hispanic aged 18 to 29 that makes over $54,000 a year.
Oddly enough, given a choice if it's offered in the character creator, I always play as a young Hispanic female. It's great to see that we're offered more choices than ever before to play how we want to play.
……forgetit
Member
This is getting off topic isn't it? Race divides and Gender divides are big hurdles, but they're really different issues when it comes to games.
If you don't like developers listening to fan feedback, do you also think that developers shouldn't change the gameplay whenever a large majority criticizes the level design, the balance between units, the hitboxes, etc.?
Besides, game developers are already influenced so much by outside factors. Publishers telling them what character design to go for, which genre to do, what they can and cannot say in regards to political topics, how the marketing is going to be, and so on. Game developers are not in some creative bubble, especially not AAA devs. They are all influenced creatively and economically by outside factors when they make their games.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yeah, no. You're either suggesting that ME:A doesn't allow you to be a male character or that this article shouldn't have been what it was about. It is actively impossible for this article to be about ME:A and the subject of how much more choice men have over women across the industry, because ME:A does not relate to that subject. What purpose does mentioning it even have? To pat the games industry on the back about how they're not doing a great job, but sometimes they do okay?
It's an awesome thing that no one has claimed that in this thread or in the article eh
Seriously, just read what people are saying and you should realize that you're responding to straw arguments. People are saying that it's a shit thing that the progress for women is that they get to be one half of a character plus change, while men get to be the other half and then 100 other characters.
It's an awesome thing that no one has claimed that in this thread or in the article eh
Seriously, just read what people are saying and you should realize that you're responding to straw arguments. People are saying that it's a shit thing that the progress for women is that they get to be one half of a character plus change, while men get to be the other half and then 100 other characters.
……forgetit
Member
None of that really goes against the point I was trying to make. I never said that women don't play games, but that last study was disingenuous. The one you posted makes more sense. Also it also supports the point I was making, different genres do better with different demographics, and finally we need more female protagonists in games, I really agree on that, but given the context of E3 the lack isn't as shocking as a lot seem to think.
Jack Random
Member
I don't like that they chose to ignore games that allowed choice in their writeup. By this methodology, FemShep (one of my favorite female characters due to an outstanding VO performance) would not count since she is a choice.
Unfoirtunately, "nearly 50% of the games shown allowed you to choose gender" isnt nearly as sensational a headline
Unfoirtunately, "nearly 50% of the games shown allowed you to choose gender" isnt nearly as sensational a headline
mikefrails
Banned
So? Stop counting these things as wins/losses.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm sorry that the subject of the article isn't on your list of acceptable things to write about. Are you alleging that there is no valid point to be made that you can probably name 10 games where male is the only option from this gen to every one game where female is the only option?
Like this graphic shows, the overlaps of genres between the two binary genders shouldn't mean that E3 is male-oriented:
Surprise, console-playing men and women have incredibly similar preferences in genres. So, genres don't necessarily mean doing better with different demographics.
Since they are essentially neutral what is the point of concentrating on games that you choose a gender unless your narrative is 'See, you got something, you're doing good, be satisfied with that"
The argument was that "games that feature non-white males don't sell". GTA disproves that.
Final Fantasy XIII featured an Asian female protagonist and it didn't have problems selling either.
SaucyJack
Member
Ah see, you've been caught out by the deliberate phrasing. 97% were not purely male.
Yes, you're correct.
The argument presented in the linked article is that having more men as the "heroes" of videogames reinforces the problematic viewpoint that only men can be heroes. The same logic applies to race.
Obviously Feminist Frequency is going to take a feminist perspective on the issue, but everyone stands to benefit from pushing more inclusion.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yes, but that does not mean that this should be about all issues at E3. I'd love to see a separate thread made, but expanding this thread to cover those bases shouldn't occur.
……forgetit
Member
You don't have to post the image again, I read the whole article. Also I'll take your word on it on this one.
Race is very different from gender, their both issues that need to be addressed, but the article isn't about race. The amount of racial minorities on stage at E3 hasn't even been tabulated to discuss.
The first time I saw white males listed was as a reply to just "males" race in gaming is a noble cause and we can have a thread about that, but let's not derail.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Dragon Puncher
Member
That is exactly what the article does and what I was responding to. It's not counting Dishonered 2 as a female protagonist for example, even though all the gameplay we saw from that game was with a female in the lead.
The point is that we are talking about equality in games, but disregarding the most pure form of equality. And in some games like Dishonered 2 the story between the two protagonists are different and their reactions to events presumably different as well, just calling that neutral is a disservice to the issue.
And there is a difference between saying: "We're actually getting somewhere in some regards, that's good" and "You should be satisfied with what you got". I don't think the best way forward is polarizing the issue and refusing to acknowledge the places in which things are actually getting better.
Yes! Exactly that! Because doing okay is better than doing terribly, and it deserves more recognition that it's getting right now. Which, in your case, is none at all.
Again, describing the Mass Effect: Andromeda gender situation as 'women get to be one half of a character plus change' is simply not true and you know it. The box art, trailers, and default female protagonist together count as mere 'change'?! Stop putting a spin on this to make it look worse than it is. Yes, women have it bad in this situation, but they do not have it as bad as you, The Verge and Feminist Frequency make it out to be. I wish you'd just value getting to the core of the matter more than making reality match up with how you feel the state of things is.
I agree with you. But the headline should simply have been 'E3 2016: men exclusively featured in showcased games twelve times as often as women'. Nothing incorrect or disingenuous about that. Feel free to steal that one, The Verge.
Freeman
Banned
Recore and Horizon are the only two I can remember with female only protagonist. But I think its unfair to not account for games where you can play as both and games you don't play as any(driving games, strategy games, etc).
There are also games that were barelly showed on the stage like Nier and Gravity Rush.
Also missed opportunity for Nintendo to have Link and Zelda be a same sex couple. It doesn't change anything really(link already looks very feminine), but would certainly bring even more attention to the game.
There are also games that were barelly showed on the stage like Nier and Gravity Rush.
Also missed opportunity for Nintendo to have Link and Zelda be a same sex couple. It doesn't change anything really(link already looks very feminine), but would certainly bring even more attention to the game.
They're accounted for in the pie chart, but hardly anywhere else. Which is a shame because it's relevant to the discussion. Still, 3% female-exclusive, 41% male-exclusive. No denying that gap.
yeah, i mentioned Mass Effect as one of the rare exceptions to the rule.
another thing i felt like i needed to add to the topic:
Whenever i read people saying developer's shouldn't feel "forced" to "shoehorn" a female protagonist into their game just for diversity's sake.
That is such weird, unbased fearmongering, isn't it?
Can anyone name any concrete example, where a dev said "yeah, we felt like we needed to add a female player character due to outcry", let alone an example where that happened and it was detrimental to the game?
I couldn't name a single such example.
I'm quite sure that Evie Frye getting such a big role in AC:Syndicate wasn't unrelated to the whole ruckus about AC:Unity not having playable female protagonists. - and Syndicate was among the best installments of the series, with Evie being among the most fleshed out and most likeable protagonists.
and, as mentioned before - that gap isn't shrinking, but widening.
Both female-exclusive games were announced in 2015 already and the newly announced games were all male-only, some even clearly new entry points to a reboot / continuation of the series with another male lead (GoW 4 and GoW 4, respectively)
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
And that begs the question, do they really need another group of inexperienced people bearing down on them telling them how they should make a game? Also my example was intended to be Cole Mcgrath from Infamous. People didn't like his character design or his voice in the original and so before Infamous 2 released, they drastically changed him and that was met with outcry from the fans once again until Suckerpunch just settled back onto his original design with some alterations to clothing. That was just meant to illustrate how being too conscience of fans and what they want can backfire and they're a finicky bunch.
It's funny you say this because listening to fans normally causes as many problems as they solve. Tweaks and unfairness in games should be altered but level and character design...if you don't like it become a developer and create your own or don't play the game. For example I hate RE7 and what its become and that's due in large part to Capcom listening to fans and capitalizing on PT's absence. Seeing as I don't agree with design decisions, I wont buy the game but who am I to tell them how to design a game I have no ownership of?
……forgetit
Member
I appreciated the irony that you posted the image again briefly
I quoted without thinking lol, and I saw the thread and wondered about the genre breakdown when it came to gender. The article I found said there was one, then I get linked an article that says their is one. Now I'm not sure and need more information, but neither provide info on their sample size, but the game industry biz one provides info on how the metrics were tabulated. Also the website I linked from was specifically about mobile games, so I'm taking the second study.
royox
Member
I will play as male Ryder too. Any problem with that?
Space travel? Ok. Orcs? Ok. FTL travel? Ok. Time travel? Ok. Sentient AI? Ok. Magic? Ok. Superhuman parkour abilities? Ok. Replacing human limbs with cybernetic ones? Ok. Female lead characters that are just as strong as their male counterparts? WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS CONTRIVED SHOEHORN BS GET OUT
A Link to the Past
Banned
So essentially, you don't like that this article exists. Mentioning that ME:A has a woman as default is no more relevant than mentioning some other random feature of a game. The point of the article is to show off a specific issue in the game industry, not to jerk off game devs.
Seriously, I have no idea why you care so much that this article didn't go on tangents. I do kind of like my articles to be about one thing rather than one thing and a P.S.
Seriously, I have no idea why you care so much that this article didn't go on tangents. I do kind of like my articles to be about one thing rather than one thing and a P.S.
Not to mention the original article by Feminist Frequency that Verge refers to explicitly mentions ME:A as a generally positive example.
https://feministfrequency.com/2016/06/17/gender-breakdown-of-games-showcased-at-e3-2016/
TimeEffect
Member
To take a game by example, do you guys think games like Days Gone would work with female leads? Female lead biker, who kills zombies and humans? I wonder if games star males by default because people dont associate women with certain genres
Im also curious if female leads in games like this (which always feature heavy violence) would ever consider women as enemies to attack/inflict violence on. Enemies are always men, and we dont think much of them. I imagine playing games like post apocalyptic zombie games where women enemies are killed brutally by players would be jarring
I remember with Last of Us, people asked "why are the enemies always men" to which people here said "most women are probably dead and wouldnt survive with the gangs in the last of us universe"
If people look at certain games and think women cant exist, devs may think the same in developing a protagonist
I think having a game with a woman lead in games like Days Gone (or Last of Us) would result in devs changing the narrative, and Im curious if genders killing the opposite gender would be too jarring for devs to bother with
Sure, there are games like Mortal Kombat, but those arent the same.
So, if LoU starred Jolein, would people notice if all your human enemies were male? No one would expect all humans to be female though. Yet people also dont seem to expect a mix of both, since brutalizing women in last of us with a male lead would be controversial. Would a female lead be the same way, or would enemies continue to be just male? Im curious if devs try to avoid gender mixing and just use male leads and male enemies for particularly violent games
Im also curious if female leads in games like this (which always feature heavy violence) would ever consider women as enemies to attack/inflict violence on. Enemies are always men, and we dont think much of them. I imagine playing games like post apocalyptic zombie games where women enemies are killed brutally by players would be jarring
I remember with Last of Us, people asked "why are the enemies always men" to which people here said "most women are probably dead and wouldnt survive with the gangs in the last of us universe"
If people look at certain games and think women cant exist, devs may think the same in developing a protagonist
I think having a game with a woman lead in games like Days Gone (or Last of Us) would result in devs changing the narrative, and Im curious if genders killing the opposite gender would be too jarring for devs to bother with
Sure, there are games like Mortal Kombat, but those arent the same.
So, if LoU starred Jolein, would people notice if all your human enemies were male? No one would expect all humans to be female though. Yet people also dont seem to expect a mix of both, since brutalizing women in last of us with a male lead would be controversial. Would a female lead be the same way, or would enemies continue to be just male? Im curious if devs try to avoid gender mixing and just use male leads and male enemies for particularly violent games
It's up to developers if they want to listen to consumers and/or fans. They hold all the power and no one is forcing them to listen. Just like it was Suckerpunch's own decision to alter the appearance of its White Dude protagonist, so is it other developers' own decision to be more inclusive and represent people who aren't just white straight dudes.
If they want to continue making White Straigt Dude Games and contributing to the hegemony/dominance of such identities, then it's their prerogative. Meanwhile, people who want more diverse representation of the people who actually exist in reality and who play these games, can continue to ask for better and more diverse representation of themselves and others.
Just like people ask for shooters or RPGs, so can people ask for characters who aren't white straight dudes.
Horsemama1956
Member
Does it really matter? I don't really see the characters as male or female, just characters. They could be hermaphrodites for all I care.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Other people do though
……forgetit
Member
Funny enough the article also mentions dishonored as a game where you can choose, but I'm not sure if that's the case? Don't you have to play as both, similar to Detroit or heavy rain switching perspectives? Those I think should be more shined on in a positive light over the create a characters.
Any excuse to deflect or negate the picture that the data paints will be used.
It's good that you don't care. Then it's okay if every character is changed into a woman, correct? Because you don't care, so we might as well just change everyone into women or transgendered characters.
would it? I think, especially among antagonists, AC:Syndicate was, once again, a great example. Plenty of female mobsters, gang leaders and even top-dogs.
"Does race matter? To be honest, i'm so enlightened, i don't really see color.", says the white dude.
And yes, it does matter.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Yet another reason why Federation Force is a disaster.
……forgetit
Member
I know it's something that's been avoided in the past out of fear, but I feel like we've moved past that in videogames. Though there was that major X-men controversy apparently.
Confused Cheeseburger
Member
Indeed, it's an inverse of male shep appearing on all the box art. promotion, etc.
Your avatar reminds me I should catch up on the new episode of that show
We're going in circles now. The biased perception is strong with you. You seem to want so badly for this situation to be worse than it is, that you claim there is, in the video game gender debate, some gigantic relevance-chasm between a female-exclusive protagonist and a female-default protagonist. In reality there is only a moderate difference. Less relevant? Yes. Irrelevant? No, not at all. Your disingenuity and unintelligent debating is so obvious that you are hurting, rather than helping feminists in gaming. Congratulations.
I'm done.
MMaRsu
Banned
I'm not trying to doubt anything, just saying my personal experience, but thanks for posting that link, pretty informative
.1. I've never made that assumption. In fact I specifically asked if it's impossible for someone to identify with a character unless the character mirrors their identity, because I don't think that's the case and wanted to see why would someone think otherwise.
2. I made that assumption under the condition that players can't relate to characters of different identity and if white males are the majority of the audience for AAA games.
3. I'm not assuming that. I don't think that making gaming featuring white males is necessarily immoral of itself though.
I don't know that one way or the other, I asked questions to get to the bottom of the arguments those users posted.
well, about that, there's a difference whether you use imagery of male on female violence in public ad campaigns (which the victims of said violence would be exposed to - you can't just ask people traumatized by acts of domestic violence which might have included choking to wear blinders during their commute) and for games that prominently feature violence.
one of the two (the game, obviously) is opt-in.
It's like - porn on your ad campaign: bad. porn on your porn site: expected.
so i don't think we could compare a game about killing people featuring the murder of women and public ads featuring a powerful male person choking a "naked" woman.
d00d3n
Member
Yes. More concretely, the first gameplay footage from the game was exclusively from the point of view of Emily, right? Corvo was visible briefly during the introduction, but the actual gameplay was all Emily. The biggest talking point when showing the game was the exciting opportunities that arise from her new abilities.
……forgetit
Member
Well by that same token the last of us is a game where choking and strangling is a major thing, If it was demoes with female enemies then audience didn't op-in and it can mess with survivors watching at home or in the audience. So...yeah, female enemies are something that are tip toed around because it isn't immediately obvious what is okay to do and what isn't.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The fact that you think that a game that doesn't star a female-exclusive character is relevant to an article about games that do is... well, I'd say shocking, but given the mental gymnastics I see when people try to discredit these kinds of articles, I have come to expect it all.
Mass Effect: Andromeda is not relevant. And this is fact. This article is entirely black-and-white - the game either exclusively stars a woman, or it does not. Games that exclusively star a woman are mentioned, and games that do not are not. There are tons of great female roles, some that were even at E3, but they are not mentioned because the subject is not relevant to the quality of the roles or the quality/relevance of the female character options in their respective games. If you cannot understand why an article shouldn't go on a tangent, then I have no idea what to tell you. I mean, should all articles about poor representation of women in the industry mention Mass Effect: Andromeda? Should there just be a type-up from EA for every article to include that makes sure that everyone knows how great the industry is doing outside of the topic being discussed? Honestly, I don't know about you, but I would sooner not have game journalism move away from the whole journalism thing and creep into PR mouthpieces. It is not normal for critical articles to be expected to be positive if they do not choose to be, let alone when the article is not related to what people are pointing out as a positive. I can see the headlines:
"EA bans women from attending Battlefield 1 tournament, but at least Mass Effect: Andromeda has a woman by default"
"Mario Kart 8 has a really mediocre roster of female drivers, but have you seen Mass Effect: Andromeda?"