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[Eusis]

I don't really see the point in calling for the removal of mammaries in this case. Diversity will advance as a result of trends/games over time/years, not with one specific game that's actually already been released for some time now.

Gaming is naturally more diverse than it was 10 or 20 years ago and that trend is going to continue. That's why I see the call for Senran Kagura in particular as pointless. Feels like Dragon's Crown all over again.

Honestly that cover probably has a lot to do with it. Not that the original cover is technically free of it, but as the focus is more on the cast of characters it wouldn't register that much, unless this guy was keeping an eye on the game for awhile like some of us may have.

 

[Fugu]

What? We have games like The last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, and then we have a game like Senran kagura. How's that not diversity?

You hand-picked three games. I would love to just formulate a list of games that objectify or demean women but such a list would both be incredibly long and would also be useless without some sort of explanation as to why I believe these games to be objectifying or demeaning.

"Progressivism" has tended to favor the removal of limits on what is considered acceptable in fiction.

So if you think the progressive tide of society will open up the types of entertainment that is possible, yes, I agree and hope so. But if you think progressivism is going to eliminate and discourage certain forms of entertainment, I don't see society moving in that direction at all.

We are moving away from a one size fits all narrow definition of "decency" that pleases a mainstream audience, and into a fragmented plethora of unrestrained entertainment options that please many different fragmented niches.

We already decided a long time ago that objectifying women in fiction is acceptable so I fail to see how yet another video game character with an hourglass body does anything to motion towards removing limits.

In addition, I should clarify for the thousandth time that I am not after the end of sexual objectification nor am I interested in censoring anything (I am, in fact, about as stringently opposed to censorship as I am to sexism). I am arguing that it is important to recognize this game's place in a very long and very generic line of games that choose to objectify women.

And many of us don't disagree with you about that. But we don't feel that this game is specially repugnant (or even questionable) given its context in the market and its actual craft.

Obviously it's up to the individual where they choose to draw the line on what is questionable and what isn't but I would put this quite a ways beyond that line. I suppose we could have a debate about said line but I'm not really interested in that. I'm more interested in convincing people that this debate is not over censorship but how homogeneous videogames are and how that homogeneity is negative.

Why do we need to get rid of them? I say this as someone who actually prefers smaller boobs in general. There's no reason for this game not to exist as it is, just because some people don't care for it. Sure there's fanservice, but the stripping mechanics are actually part of the gameplay and the game has a decent story with plenty of content.

We don't need to, but when such a large percentage of games resort to this kind of basic pandering, it's beneficial to all of us to point it out. It's like generic brown and green FPSes except with the added tinge that this particular repeated and tired trend happens to also be sexist at the scale that it's operating.

 

[Riposte]

Pornography is another industry where the mainstream is incredibly sexist and largely only appealing to one sex. There's a lot of work to be done in pornography and it's changing, albeit very slowly.

And can you answer what I've been asking this whole time: In what mediums have "we" won? Where sexual objectification (let's say, strong sexual objectification) no longer exists ?

As an aside, that you think to compare the level of sexual objectification in videogames to that of pornography is pretty telling in itself.

I'm not actually comparing the material, only the fact sexual objectification exists in them and is appealing to a viable, long-term market (a market that exists within the video/film one, which to you is all one thing apparently, the "sexual objectification market"). The fact you think I am is a little desperate. I'm actually pointing out how pie in the sky your idea of "victory" is.

That they do because such games represent a step backwards.

And if they don't think it is a step backwards for the medium as a whole, that it is a separate piece, i.e., they disagree with you, then they are not obligated.

Yeah, but I am not talking about the market of Senran Kagura Burst; I'm talking about the market for sexually objectified women in videogames.

Which is not the "exact same" market. For example, the market for Call of Duty (where there is relatively little sexual objectification, btw) is entirely different, with any overlap being small (and still miniscule even if all Senran Kagura's market fit into Call of Duty's).

 

[Tohsaka]

If you're just looking at the number of titles published, I'm willing to bet I can find more than 4 moe games published in the last couple years. Hell, isn't this like the third Senran Kagura game alone? If you're looking at sales, then yes TLOU, Bioshock, Beyond, and Tomb Raider for sure sold more than the moe market. But what happens if we widen our search from "creepy otaku that get turned on by 12 year old girls with giant racks" to "slightly more normal teenage boys that get turned on by oversexualized women of a more appropriate age?" I bet the sales of games with oversexualized women dwarfs the sales of the four games you mentioned.

You could probably find more than 4 moe games in the last couple years, but you'd also find way more games that are completely different that also sold ten times more copies than they did. Also, this is the only Senran Kagura game to be localized thus far and none of the girls are twelve, they're all high schoolers.

We don't need to, but when such a large percentage of games resort to this kind of basic pandering, it's beneficial to all of us to point it out. It's like generic brown and green FPSes except with the added tinge that this particular repeated and tired trend happens to also be sexist at the scale that it's operating.

There are games that pander to otaku, sure, but are far more that don't. I don't expect everyone to like them, just as I don't like every game or genre. I don't want those I dislike to be changed to fit my needs, though, I think people have a right to enjoy whatever they like.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Obviously it's up to the individual where they choose to draw the line on what is questionable and what isn't but I would put this quite a ways beyond that line. I suppose we could have a debate about said line but I'm not really interested in that. I'm more interested in convincing people that this debate is not over censorship but how homogeneous videogames are and how that homogeneity is negative.
.

The problem is that you already implied that you will be okey with a level of censorship and a reason of "not being", that's why some of us take issue.

 

[plasmawave]

You hand-picked three games. I would love to just formulate a list of games that objectify or demean women but such a list would both be incredibly long and would also be useless without some sort of explanation as to why I believe these games to be objectifying or demeaning.

Doesn't matter. My point still stands.

An go ahead. Post that list!

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

The problem is that you already implied that you will be okey with a level of censorship.

Have you ever thought to yourself "ugh another WW2 military shooter" or "ugh another AAA game where everything is brown?" It's the same. No one is saying these things should be banned, we are just saying it would be good if there were better things to balance out this crap.

You could probably find more than 4 moe games in the last couple years, but you'd also find way more games that are completely different that also sold ten times more copies than they did. Also, this is the only Senran Kagura game to be localized thus far and none of the girls are twelve, they're all high schoolers.

As I said in the very post you quoted, it's more than just the specific moe subgenre of pervy games. It's also all of the mainstream games that feature oversexualized women characters, which is much greater than the number of games that have believably written female characters. Also, I think it's telling that there's a specific moe subgenre of games that exists purely to let guys ogle underage girls with ridiculously large racks.

 

[Videoneon]

Well, he didn't even mentioned so much about Senran Kagura but the posibility of peripheral demographic but how in ultimate stance, is still created to cater certain market and how we shouln't forget that.

My first post said gave a couple of more detailed reasons why I don't think the comparison sticks. Everything with a fanbase has a peripheral demographic. MLP's circumstance was arguably much more noticeable, unless someone wants to point out something that makes Senran Kagura similar.

Trust me, still beats the alternative (as 'censorship' was also justificated as "Protecting in a spiritual way" the people) Implying that you want

I really don't understand why people are making this about "censorship." Sometimes people feel too threatened to quickly about this. This is another one of the "void" - the unconditional right to speech. The thing about that is in practice there is no void - the voice of people looking for more compelling depiction of female characters in gaming is hardly represented, and on level of gaming development, women are still underrepresented. SK is a logical target for obvious reasons, and people should speak up against bad depictions of women in order to bolster good depictions. Artists are often influenced by other art.. I'm not a prude, but it should be clear if gaming is an adolescent industry and not in its infancy the sexist skew is a symptom.

Yes, it's more akin to what I imagine anti-revolutionary to mean.

That's great. Your other post in response to mine came up with impressively broad comparisons to a specific situation. The porn comparison still doesn't make sense (for one, it's much more broad a classification than SK). This:

Someone is not obligated (morally) to think there is only one way to a more diverse market and that way is to trample over games that are deemed (by some other power) "harmful". Moreover, they are not even obligated to dislike these games. It is only apathetic towards one narrow point of view - the absolutist's.

grossly exaggerates the opposition you're replying to. If you think that there's more than one way to a more diverse audience, I haven't seen you suggest anything. The latter half of that statement is a tautology reinforced by what you already think.

As for the third part, the success of Senran Kagura is symptomatic of the gaming audience at large. This is reflected in the success of harem media. Catering to straight men is a prominent element in gaming. See Fugu's other posts. It's not like I'm denying the presence of sexism in art in the West either.

 

[Mik317]

No, but we should point out how ridiculous they are and should encourage developers to make a wider variety of games for more people than just nerdy boys.

ok.

and how is this done?

People love to spout how all they want is more games for a wider variety of people. That is a great thing to want as there should be a game or two that reaches for everything. And I will admit that the industry as it is now does not do that as a lot of games that I want are seemingly not being made. However, how is this done...without in fact meaning that there are less of the games that are "harmful"?

I could never wrap my head around this. In everyone of these threads it eventually gets to the censorship stuff and it pops up. "I don't mean that these games shouldn't be made but I think there should be more games not like that"..... I mean yeah, I'd like less COD clones and FPS in general. How am I going to get those? There are but so many developers out there.

Just as an example lets say there are 5 developers. 1 makes RPGs 2 makes FPS, 2 makes Action/Adventure stuff. I'd like more RPGs. And If my word meant a damn thing now one of the 5 have to be the ones to make it. This now takes away resources and perhaps even a franchise from the other 4. And now that guys or gal is unhappy that their favorite game dies. Saying well you had it good for too long and that there are enough games for you, is rather selfish. As what if they didn't like the other FPS...tough shit and deal with it, right? Well why can't they say the same to me? I guess I don't get the idea that things must appeal to you or a specific group. it is an either or type thing in some cases. Sure we all would like to believe that if COD is offed (lol) in favor of something new, different or just not a COD (same budget and advertisment and all that) that there would be enough games like that to go around and that this new thing will diversify gaming. All that may be true but now the guy who only really enjoyed COD is shit out of luck...and now he's the one being pissed on so to speak.

It's never going to be fair. Majority rules and all that.

So going after this game is extra silly because this is a niche game. There aren't many Senran Kaguras (at least not ones that get localized) anymore, it's not taking up space from something unique and the director seems to be really passionate and wanted to make the game exactly the way it is. This isn't a cold focus tested monster. Its a game from a dude who fucking loves T&A. I'm not calling censorship hax but I am saying think about it. These games will be the first to go in search of this diversity which is pretty ironic to me as it won't be the Majority getting cut but rather another minority/niche.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Have you ever thought to yourself "ugh another WW2 military shooter" or "ugh another AAA game where everything is brown?" It's the same. No one is saying these things should be banned, we are just saying it would be good if there were better things to balance out this crap.

You're right that no one has asked for those to be banned, at least no on major websites, but this article was written by someone that doesn't want games like Senran Kagura to exist, and even goes as far as to list pointers on "how to make it stop". It's not a case of him want balancing, he doesn't think that the games should be made.

 

[Fugu]

And can you answer what I've been asking this whole time: In what mediums have "we" won? Where sexual objectification (let's say, strong sexual objectification) no longer exists ?

I never said that any such thing has occurred. My statement was meant to imply that progressivism almost always wins individual battles, particularly in the last 100 years.

I'm not actually comparing the material, only the fact sexual objectification exists in them and is appealing to a viable, long-term market. The fact you think I am is a little desperate. I'm actually pointing out how pie in the sky your idea of "victory" is.

We see a lot less racist and sexist movies these days and my status as an amateur enjoyer of films tells me that that absolutely hasn't always been the case. I'm after floor pie, really, since what I'm asking for is basically the bare minimum in equality.

And if they don't think it is a step backwards for the medium as a whole, that it is a separate piece, i.e., they disagree with you, then they are not obligated.

If they don't think it's a step backwards, they might want to watch some of the gameplay.

Which is not the "exact same" market. For example, the market for Call of Duty (where there is relatively little sexual objectification, btw) is entirely different, with any overlap being small (and still miniscule even if all Senran Kagura's market fit into Call of Duty's).

Given that marketing depends, to a degree, on rounding off people into demographics, I think that it's fair to say that the total sexualization of women as a whole in videogames is an effort to appeal to the (specifically younger) male group.

Also, the objectification doesn't happen much in Call of Duty because you can't play as a woman. I wonder which of the two realities is worse.

The problem is that you already implied that you will be okey with a level of censorship.

Where? Please quote me.

And to be clear: I am not okay with any level of censorship.

Doesn't matter. My point still stands.

An go ahead. Post that list!

It absolutely does matter. Your list puts the proportion of games that blatantly objectify women at 33%. If I add one game (say, the game from my avatar) to that list, the number jumps to 50%. If I add the entire Tomb Raider franchise it shoots up to, like, 90%.

I might make such a list some day but I'm afraid that not even I, the responder of posts, has time for that right now.

There are games that pander to otaku, sure, but are far more that don't. I don't expect everyone to like them, just as I don't like every game or genre. I don't want those I dislike to be changed to fit my needs, though, I think people have a right to enjoy whatever they like.

But sexual objectification isn't done in the name of pandering to otaku, it's done in the name of pandering to men.

 

[Karkador]

You're right that no one has asked for those to be banned, at least no on major websites, but this article was written by someone that doesn't want games like Senran Kagura to exist, and even goes as far as to list pointers on "how to make it stop". It's not a case of him want balancing, he doesn't think that the games should be made.

so let's agree to ignore this particular voice and move on? one zealous blogger's crazy rant doesnt make the entire conversation about that

 

[8-Bit Beast]

Right, and virtually all of those people are men. If you're only interested in seeing gaming as largely the boy's club it is today, that's fine. But plenty of people have higher aspirations for the community and, frankly, we'll win eventually.

From up there on your pedestal can you see the millions of people, male and female who managed to keep pornography as the prime use of the internet for all those years? I suppose I will see you fighting the same fight in reverse at r/ladyboners huh? My insulting tone is to match the insulting light you have shone upon yourself against others with different preferences to you.

I know you said that you beleive the content should exist but you're acknowledging that you think there is a problem with the content which implies it needs to be fixed. I don't see a way to appease you without killing that section of the market.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

My first post said gave a couple of more detailed reasons why I don't think the comparison sticks. Everything with a fanbase has a peripheral demographic. MLP's circumstance was arguably much more noticeable, unless someone wants to point out something that makes Senran Kagura similar..

Eh,.. did you read my post? Or you acted defensive for a simple comparasion when it was not even directly related with Senran Kagura.

.

I really don't understand why people are making this about "censorship." Sometimes people feel too threatened to quickly about this. This is another one of the "void" - the unconditional right to speech. The thing about that is in practice there is no void - the voice of people looking for more compelling depiction of female characters in gaming is hardly represented, and on level of gaming development, women are still underrepresented. SK is a logical target for obvious reasons, and people should speak up against bad depictions of women in order to bolster good depictions. Artists are often influenced by other art.. I'm not a prude, but it should be clear if gaming is an adolescent industry and not in its infancy the sexist skew is a symptom.
.

1.- You are confusing "debate" with "telling what others what is acceptable or should be silenced or not tolerated".

2.- Problem is that you are doing a poor and superficial job if you are judging the game by the art alone, specially when people at least comments about is game narrative merits.

 

[BocoDragon]

If you're just looking at the number of titles published, I'm willing to bet I can find more than 4 moe games published in the last couple years. Hell, isn't this like the third Senran Kagura game alone? If you're looking at sales, then yes TLOU, Bioshock, Beyond, and Tomb Raider for sure sold more than the moe market. But what happens if we widen our search from "creepy otaku that get turned on by 12 year old girls with giant racks" to "slightly more normal teenage boys that get turned on by oversexualized women of a more appropriate age?" I bet the sales of games with oversexualized women dwarfs the sales of the four games you mentioned.

Lets look at the top 50 selling games last year. I will put an astrix next to the ones that might have sexualitied content, or comment on debatable ones. I'll be generous.

1. Grand Theft Auto V (Rockstar) *
2. FIFA 14 (EA)
3. Call Of Duty: Ghosts (Activision)
4. Battlefield 4 (EA)
5. Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag (Ubisoft)
6. Tomb Raider (Square Enix) (she has a legacy of objectification but I believe they reached hard to avoid that here)
7. FIFA 13 (EA)
8. Lego Marvel Super Heroes (WB Games)
9. Minecraft: Xbox 360 Edition (Microsoft)
10. The Last Of Us (Sony)
11. Batman: Arkham Origins (WB Games) (I haven't played this one but Is Harley Quinn still dressed sexy?)
12. Call Of Duty: Black Ops II (Activision)
13. Just Dance 2014 (Ubisoft) (pop stars and damcing girls, so perhaps?)
14. Far Cry 3 (Ubisoft)
15. Saints Row IV (Deep Silver) *
16. BioShock Infinite (2K Games)
17. Killzone: Shadow Fall (Sony)
18. Need for Speed: Rivals (EA)
19. Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes (WB Games)
20. Skylanders: Swap Force (Activision)
21. Animal Crossing: New Leaf (Nintendo)
22. Assassin’s Creed III (Ubisoft)
23. Need For Speed: Most Wanted (EA)
24. Disney Infinity (Disney)
25. Lego The Lord Of The Rings (WB Games)
26. Aliens: Colonial Marines (Sega)
27. Pokémon X (Nintendo)
28. WWE 2K14 (2K Games)
29. Pokémon Y (Nintendo)
30. Dead Island: Riptide (Deep Silver) (I believe there are scantily clad ladies, not to mention that horrible aborted preorder bikini torso)
31. Halo 4 (Microsoft)
32. Splinter Cell: Blacklist (Ubisoft)
33. Hitman Absolution (Square Enix)
34. Luigi’s Mansion 2 (Nintendo)
35. Gears Of War: Judgment (Microsoft)
36. Crysis 3 (EA)
37. Just Dance 4 (Ubisoft)
38. Skylanders Giants (Activision)
39. Football Manager 2014 (Sega)
40. Dead Space 3 (EA)
41. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (Bethesda)
42. Gran Turismo 6 (Sony)
43. Forza Motorsport 5 (Microsoft)
44. Grand Theft Auto IV (Rockstar) *
45. Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed (Sega)
46. Injustice: Gods Among Us (WB Games)
47. Max Payne 3 (Rockstar) (Not sure about this one)
48. Grand Theft Auto Episodes: Liberty City (Rockstar)
49. God Of War: Ascension (Sony) *
50. F1 2013 (Codemasters)

Source: http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/16/100-best-selling-video-games-of-2013-revealed-4265929/

So as you can see, the majority of the marketplace has actually moved away from sexualzed women as a mainstream part of gaming. The main offenders are open world crime games, which embrace the fact that they trade on depravity. It's not that we've gotten progressive, and in many ways it was just crowded out by military shooters, etc, but by and large the industry clearly deems it gauche to capitalize on sexuality the way they did only a few years ago.

The sexualised games that remain are niche, bottom shelf imports from Japan that sell a few thousand copies. This was once the mainstream of the industry so I know why they are a valid target, but gaming is already moving away from that. If they are niche, and if other types of progressive games rise to prominence, then I think it's unfair to crusade against their existence.

 

[plasmawave]

It absolutely does matter. Your list puts the proportion of games that blatantly objectify women at 33%. If I add one game (say, the game from my avatar) to that list, the number jumps to 50%. If I add the entire Tomb Raider franchise it shoots up to, like, 90%.

I might make such a list some day but I'm afraid that not even I, the responder of posts, has time for that right now.

Uh no, it doesn't. The point is there is diversity in the industry. Not which game with objectifying women is outnumbering the other or vice versa.
FPS games outnumbers driving games by a HUGE margin, but that doesn't mean it's not adding to the diversity of the game industry.

 

[Fugu]

From up there on your pedestal can you see the millions of people, male and female who managed to keep pornography as the prime use of the internet for all those years? I suppose I will see you fighting the same fight in reverse at r/ladyboners huh? My insulting tone is to match the insulting light you have shone upon yourself against others with different preferences to you.

I know you said that you beleive the content should exist but you're acknowledging that you think there is a problem with the content which implies it needs to be fixed. I don't see a way to appease you without killing thay section of the market.

The way to appease me and people like me is for significant (primarily male) actors in the video game industry right now to push towards projects that portray a wider gamut of female characters.

I really, truly don't care if people continue to make games where all of the females have giant boobs. The issue here is that these games are not a niche but instead represent a level of objectification that is practically normal in videogames.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Where? Please quote me.

And to be clear: I am not okay with any level of censorship.

.

All games intrigue me. I love games. I've beaten hundreds of them and will likely beat hundreds more. But this kind of shit is off-putting and unnecessary. Not only does it not need to be there, but it just contributes to perpetuating a negative thing at little benefit to anyone.

Maybe not exactly censorship... but compare that with this in your recent post above me.

I really, truly don't care if people continue to make games where all of the females have giant boobs. The issue here is that these games are not a niche but instead represent a level of objectification that is practically normal in videogames.

 

[Mik317]

Have you ever thought to yourself "ugh another WW2 military shooter" or "ugh another AAA game where everything is brown?" It's the same. No one is saying these things should be banned, we are just saying it would be good if there were better things to balance out this crap.
.

Again. How is this balance gained?

it's gained by there being less of a certain game. Why is is fair that this franchise's fans are the ones who get shafted.

It just sucks that small games like this are the ones "attacked" in a sense when in reality, they don't even make a dent in the big picture.

You want more diversity, then go after the big guys. Pressure the GTA guys to give us a playable female protag. Pressure the Battlefield dude to allow Female Soilders. Laura Croft may have been a sociopathic monster but fuck it at least she is a start...again. Pointing at these niche ass games (Dragons' Crown, Killer is Dead, and this) is counterproductive as fuck as they aren't the issue here...they are games that will never reach the mainstream so starting with them is pointless. All it will do is mean less games like that get greenlight and that doesn't mean in their place there will be these diverse games...nope there will simply be more safe titles, more focus tested to death, boring bland games starring Baldy McGruffman.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

People love to spout how all they want is more games for a wider variety of people. That is a great thing to want as there should be a game or two that reaches for everything. And I will admit that the industry as it is now does not do that as a lot of games that I want are seemingly not being made. However, how is this done...without in fact meaning that there are less of the games that are "harmful"?

I could never wrap my head around this. In everyone of these threads it eventually gets to the censorship stuff and it pops up. "I don't mean that these games shouldn't be made but I think there should be more games not like that"..... I mean yeah, I'd like less COD clones and FPS in general. How am I going to get those? There are but so many developers out there.

A big part of the problem is that the prevalence of oversexualized female characters feeds in to the "boys club" nature of both videogame fandom and the videogame industry as a workplace, which is actively keeping women out of the fandom and out of the industry, and thus lowering choice in the marketplace. That's not "natural" or "majority rules." Men and women are pretty close to 50/50, and there's no natural barrier limiting the number of people that can make a video game at any given time. It's just that a certain group of men happened to get to the gaming industry first, and they have been clutching onto it for dear life.

I'm gonna be honest here. I'm against censorship, I don't want to see any games get banned. But I wouldn't mind if games like Senran Kagura weren't OK to talk about in a general gaming population without a lot of people thinking you were weird at best and a creep to stay away from at worst. Keep that stuff in 4chan and Hongfire, and let gaming grow up as a medium into something well-adjusted adults don't have to be embarrassed to be a fan of.

 

[plasmawave]

.

That's ice cold.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

The real shame is that the game actually has a very well written story with good characters and most people hating on it will probably never know that because they'll either play the game with rage-tinted glasses, or outright refuse to play the game like this article suggests.

 

[GorillaJu]

I wish males and their stupid gaze would just leave video gaming alone.

 

[Fugu]

Lets look at the top 50 selling games last year. I will put an astrix next to the ones that might have sexualitied content, or comment on debatable ones. I'll be generous.

Snip

So as you can see, the majority of the marketplace has actually moved away from sexualzed women as a mainstream part of gaming. The main offenders are open world crime games, which embrace the fact that they trade on depravity. It's not that we've gotten progressive, and in many ways it was just crowded out by military shooters, etc, but by and large the industry clearly deems it gauche to capitalize on sexuality the way they did only a few years ago.

The sexualised games that remain are niche, bottom shelf imports from Japan that sell a few thousand copies. This was once the mainstream of the industry so I know why they are a valid target, but gaming is already moving away from that. If they are niche, and if other types of progressive games rise to prominence, then I think it's unfair to crusade against their existence.

There are a multitude of reasons why I didn't want to get into list wars but I want to mention specifically that it turns this debate into defining what sexual objectification is. The debate should actually be concerning why there are comparatively small amounts of women in gaming and what we can identify as challenges to diversity in videogames.

For what it's worth, I would have placed at least a few more asterisks on that list (Tomb Raider? Really?) and the only reason that there would be so few is that I don't play a lot of mainstream games and I don't want to comment on games I know nothing about. I would have also been careful to also designate games that don't offer any kind of significant female representation, and, in another tier of designation (so to speak) those that don't allow for a female lead for any canon reason. I would argue that not offering a female lead isn't really a problem but it is, as with everything else in this argument, all about systemics.

.



Maybe not exactly censorship... but compare that with this in your recent post above me.

In that post, I was expressing my personal desire not to buy games with such rampant and unfortunate objectification. I wasn't arguing that such a thing should be censored or shouldn't exist. I also don't buy console shooters but I'm not out on the street mugging dudes for their newest copy of Battlefield, nor am I shitting up Battlefield threads arguing for the death of console shooters (okay, this sometimes happens).

 

[Riposte]

I never said that any such thing has occurred. My statement was meant to imply that progressivism almost always wins individual battles, particularly in the last 100 years.

Progressivism (and smaller ideologies like feminism) can take many competing forms. You're ideal conclusion is not inevitable. This is my point. And there are still countless films being made with sexually objected women (and this is before considering pornography, once you do so, it isn't even worth arguing) - more so if you consider Tomb Raider (2013) sexually objecting (that pretty much throws in every single blockbuster).

If they don't think it's a step backwards, they might want to watch some of the gameplay.

Doesn't in any way contradict what I said. I said step backwards for the whole medium, i.e., pulling the medium back and creating some form of harm. If you do not feel that way, then you are not obligated to deride it.

 

[Mik317]

A big part of the problem is that the prevalence of oversexualized female characters feeds in to the "boys club" nature of both videogame fandom and the videogame industry as a workplace, which is actively keeping women out of the fandom and out of the industry, and thus lowering choice in the marketplace. That's not "natural" or "majority rules." Men and women are pretty close to 50/50, and there's no natural barrier limiting the number of people that can make a video game at any given time. It's just that a certain group of men happened to get to the gaming industry first, and they have been clutching onto it for dear life.

I'm gonna be honest here. I'm against censorship, I don't want to see any games get banned. But I wouldn't mind if games like Senran Kagura weren't OK to talk about in a general gaming population without a lot of people thinking you were weird at best and a creep to stay away from at worst. Keep that stuff in 4chan and Hongfire, and let gaming grow up as a medium into something well-adjusted adults don't have to be embarrassed to be a fan of.

how the fuck is that not defacto censorship.

"I don't want the games to not be made but rather the people who enjoy them to be shamed".

The fuck?

I can never ever ever understand how gamers are so quick to exile parts of their fandom of like fucking lepers. You do realize that this the exact same shit people used to (and perhaps still) do to people who play games period?

You guys are talking about having an industry in which everyone is equal and in the same goddam paragraph go off on how you would basically shun anyone who enjoys something you dont care for.

Miss me with that weak stuff man.

That is sad.

 

[BocoDragon]

A big part of the problem is that the prevalence of oversexualized female characters feeds in to the "boys club" nature of both videogame fandom and the videogame industry as a workplace, which is actively keeping women out of the fandom and out of the industry, and thus lowering choice in the marketplace. That's not "natural" or "majority rules." Men and women are pretty close to 50/50, and there's no natural barrier limiting the number of people that can make a video game at any given time. It's just that a certain group of men happened to get to the gaming industry first, and they have been clutching onto it for dear life.

I'm gonna be honest here. I'm against censorship, I don't want to see any games get banned. But I wouldn't mind if games like Senran Kagura weren't OK to talk about in a general gaming population without a lot of people thinking you were weird at best and a creep to stay away from at worst. Keep that stuff in 4chan and Hongfire, and let gaming grow up as a medium into something well-adjusted adults don't have to be embarrassed to be a fan of.

It already is that, in a way.

If I start a conversation with any random group on the street about Senran Kagura and explain what it's about, you think you're not gonna get "huh??" and eye roll responses?

 

[8-Bit Beast]

The way to appease me and people like me is for significant (primarily male) actors in the video game industry right now to push towards projects that portray a wider gamut of female characters.

I really, truly don't care if people continue to make games where all of the females have giant boobs. The issue here is that these games are not a niche but instead represent a level of objectification that is practically normal in videogames.

Its fine to expect a wider diversity but you are overlooking the point of equality. Go back through that list of games you just picked apart and tell me how many of the males are unrealistically perfect? From Drake to the Gears meat heads. CoD soldiers to Assassins Creed. You'll be hard pushed to even find a spotty teen. Most of the characters in almost all games are built to perfection or beyond and it isnt discriminate against gender or race.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Lets look at the top 50 selling games last year. I will put an astrix next to the ones that might have sexualitied content, or comment on debatable ones. I'll be generous.

1. Grand Theft Auto V (Rockstar) *
6. Tomb Raider (Square Enix) (she has a legacy of objectification but I believe they reached hard to avoid that here)
11. Batman: Arkham Origins (WB Games) (I haven't played this one but Is Harley Quinn still dressed sexy?)
13. Just Dance 2014 (Ubisoft) (pop stars and damcing girls, so perhaps?)
15. Saints Row IV (Deep Silver) *
30. Dead Island: Riptide (Deep Silver) (I believe there are scantily clad ladies, not to mention that horrible aborted preorder bikini torso)
31. Halo 4 (Microsoft)
33. Hitman Absolution (Square Enix)
37. Just Dance 4 (Ubisoft)
44. Grand Theft Auto IV (Rockstar) *
46. Injustice: Gods Among Us (WB Games)
47. Max Payne 3 (Rockstar) (Not sure about this one)
48. Grand Theft Auto Episodes: Liberty City (Rockstar)
49. God Of War: Ascension (Sony) *


Source: http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/16/100-best-selling-video-games-of-2013-revealed-4265929/

I didn't say that every single video game has oversexualized women. I said that there are more games with oversexualized women than well-written women. You missed a few within your list, too. It's tough, because even games like Halo 4 that have some well-written female characters also rely on you saving the goddamn princess, and this time she's even naked.

 

[BocoDragon]

I didn't say that every single video game has oversexualized women. I said that there are more games with oversexualized women than well-written women. You missed a few within your list, too. It's tough, because even games like Halo 4 that have some well-written female characters also rely on you saving the goddamn princess, and this time she's even naked.

I'm actually asserting it's not true.. Not in 2013 anyway. It was true, of course! But I think the industry has moved away from it quite a bit.

When I saw the model pinups in Revengeance this year (which were not that harmful) I thought it was anachronistic compared to its contemporaries.. And I forgave it mainly because it's Metal Gear, largely a relic from another time.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

how the fuck is that not defacto censorship.

"I don't want the games to not be made but rather the people who enjoy them to be shamed".

The fuck?

I can never ever ever understand how gamers are so quick to exile parts of their fandom of like fucking lepers. You do realize that this the exact same shit people used to (and perhaps still) do to people who play games period?

You guys are talking about having an industry in which everyone is equal and in the same goddam paragraph go off on how you would basically shun anyone who enjoys something you dont care for.

Miss me with that weak stuff man.

That is sad.

All I'm saying is, I don't talk about what kind of porn I like at the Thanksgiving table, and you shouldn't talk about how much you love your 16-year-old waifu with gigantic wobbling tits.

 

[Fugu]

Its fine to expect a wider diversity but you are overlooking the point of equality. Go back through that list of games you just picked apart and tell me how many of the males are unrealistically perfect? From Drake to the Gears meat heads. CoD soldiers to Assassins Creed. You'll be hard pushed to even find a spotty teen. Most of the characters in almost all games are built to perfection or beyond and it isnt discriminate against gender or race.

Male power fantasies, while sometimes -- although often not -- harmful to men, don't harm women (unless rape makes a serious public mindshare comeback). This is in contrast to an image of women as mostly just being there for the sex, which is really harmful to all genders.

I think Bayonetta is a good example, because Bayonetta only works due to the ubiquitous nature of the weak female side character stereotype. If Bayonetta were Bayonetto and all of the characters flipped genders, it would be consistent with people's expectations of videogame characters.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

In that post, I was expressing my personal desire not to buy games with such rampant and unfortunate objectification. I wasn't arguing that such a thing should be censored or shouldn't exist. I also don't buy console shooters but I'm not out on the street mugging dudes for their newest copy of Battlefield, nor am I shitting up Battlefield threads arguing for the death of console shooters (okay, this sometimes happens).

But you did exactly that here.

Then don't try to say that "I only want disscuss about how women are represented, who cares that boobie game in its own". You are free to no liked it (I can undestand why) but you need to admit you already expressed a pretty polarizing opinion than gives another perspective your posts and only gets people more defensive.

 

[GorillaJu]

There are plenty of reasons why video gaming is a 'boys club' and why there aren't many females in the industry, comparatively speaking. Most of those reasons are marketing, and I believe "because boobie games like Senran Kagura Burst exist" wouldn't be near the top of the list.

Blaming the lack of women on boobie games is like blaming violence on Call of Duty. It's not an entirely unreasonable conclusion to come to if you apply some simple logic, but put under any scrutiny it just doesn't hold.

In the last 10-15 years of my life, I've never once heard a woman/girl voice an opinion on the matter, and any time I've played a game with a girl, she, without fail, picks the cutest female character. I hope that the poster in this thread who actively calls for people to shame those who favor boobalicious characters for being creepy extends that rallying call to 'creepy' girls as well.

 

[Eusis]

Again. How is this balance gained?

it's gained by there being less of a certain game. Why is is fair that this franchise's fans are the ones who get shafted.

It just sucks that small games like this are the ones "attacked" in a sense when in reality, they don't even make a dent in the big picture.

You want more diversity, then go after the big guys. Pressure the GTA guys to give us a playable female protag. Pressure the Battlefield dude to allow Female Soilders. Laura Croft may have been a sociopathic monster but fuck it at least she is a start...again. Pointing at these niche ass games (Dragons' Crown, Killer is Dead, and this) is counterproductive as fuck as they aren't the issue here...they are games that will never reach the mainstream so starting with them is pointless. All it will do is mean less games like that get greenlight and that doesn't mean in their place there will be these diverse games...nope there will simply be more safe titles, more focus tested to death, boring bland games starring Baldy McGruffman.

Well, I don't think you necessarily should give a blank check to niche games, but since those will be niche it's more that you should point something out that may give someone pause, IE the mini-games in Killer is Dead. Dragon's Crown was exaggerated either way though and has a relatively modest female character with the Elf anyway, and this game is pretty bare about its intentions.

 

[Fugu]

But you did exactly that here.

Then don't try to say that "I only want disscuss about how women are represented, who cares that boobie game in its own". You are free to no liked it (I can undestand why) but you need to admit you already expressed a pretty polarizing opinion than gives another perspective your posts and only gets people more defensive.

I didn't do that here. A summary of my argument in two sentences:

This game that objectifies women is part of a pattern of games that objectify women which is, in itself, part of a historical narrative that has resulted in the objectification of women for much of recorded history. While it is never advantageous to censor such a game, it is important to acknowledge that it is part of a sexist trend that systematically works to reduce the number of women in gaming, and that a push towards variety is a push towards less of these kinds of games.

 

[plasmawave]

I didn't say that every single video game has oversexualized women. I said that there are more games with oversexualized women than well-written women. You missed a few within your list, too. It's tough, because even games like Halo 4 that have some well-written female characters also rely on you saving the goddamn princess, and this time she's even naked.

Would you say Master Chief is well written? Because there are just as much idiotic male character as over sexualized female characters out there.

 

[BocoDragon]

I didn't do that here. A summary of my argument in two sentences:

This game that objectifies women is part of a pattern of games that objectify women which is, in itself, part of a historical narrative that has resulted in the objectification of women for much of recorded history. While it is never advantageous to censor such a game, it is important to acknowledge that it is part of a sexist trend that systematically works to reduce the number of women in gaming, and that a push towards variety is a push towards less of these kinds of games.

I found myself nodding along to much of your post, but that last sentence is rather oxymoronic.

What would be wrong with adding new progressive games to the mix, instead of hoping that certain ones are eliminated?

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I didn't do that here. A summary of my argument in two sentences:

This game that objectifies women is part of a pattern of games that objectify women which is, in itself, part of a historical narrative that has resulted in the objectification of women for much of recorded history. While it is never advantageous to censor such a game, it is important to acknowledge that it is part of a sexist trend that systematically works to reduce the number of women in gaming, and that a push towards variety is a push towards less of these kinds of games.

It's a important to acknowledge? Yes.

Problem: Your post was already shitting it for the sake of it. And implied and outright disapproval without debate.

Imagine a politician that gives a rally in a mining town and he promises to listen to his suggestions and complains about the management of that mine... And a Audio is leaked where he says "they complain about nothing",

And that last sentence is already clamoring for "shamming" some kind of games that YOU said that could care less.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

That said, that cover is stupid. I can't even imagine what the game is about.

I'd say you could glean from that cover that the game was preoccupied with breasts, which would in fact be a fair assessment

 

[Kerda]

Bayonetta is a game chock full of cheesecake, but it also plays out like a gloriously batshit take on feminist theory. Bayonetta rejects motherhood, never has to be saved by a man (and actually ends up saving the game's male protagonist, who is himself comically inept and in way over his head), faces down her opposition with confidence, wit and zero inclination to act passive or demure to make herself less threatening, and in the end, reunites with her estranged sister to exact revenge on their abusive father. It's women's studies 101 with fan service and skyscraper-sized demons.

I don't say this to indicate that Bayonetta is alone somehow a counter-factual to any and all critiques of the way women are represented in gaming, but to point out that seeing tits and immediately losing your shit is reductive and dumb.

Also, to be blunt, women disinterested in gaming aren't suddenly going to start just because you slap a "relatable" character into genres and themes they don't care about. There have always been large female fanbases for games heavy on exploration, problem solving and themes of interpersonal relationship building (puzzle games, narrative-driven genres like RPGS and adventure games, as well as IRL social games like MMOs), and comparatively small ones for games focused on violence, combat and competition. You can see the same trends pan out across the broader media landscape, and while my intent isn't to say that there are certain genres that are "BOYS ONLY" or "GIRLS ONLY", when judged as broad demographics, men and women have different tastes in different things.

 

[The Technomancer]

Bayonetta is a game chock full of cheesecake, but it also plays out like a gloriously batshit take on feminist theory. Bayonetta rejects motherhood, never has to be saved by a man (and actually ends up saving the game's male protagonist, who is himself comically inept and in way over his head), faces down her opposition with confidence, wit and zero inclination to act passive or demure to make herself less threatening, and in the end, reunites with her estranged sister to exact revenge on their abusive father. It's women's studies 101 with fan service and skyscraper-sized demons.

I don't say this to indicate that Bayonetta is alone somehow a counter-factual to any and all critiques of the way women are represented in gaming, but to point out that seeing tits and immediately losing your shit is reductive and dumb.

Also, to be blunt, women disinterested in gaming aren't suddenly going to start just because you slap a "relatable" character into genres and themes they don't care about. There have always been large female fanbases for games heavy on exploration, problem solving and themes of interpersonal relationship building (puzzle games, narrative-driven genres like RPGS and adventure games, as well as IRL social games like MMOs), and comparatively small ones for games focused on violence, combat and competition. You can see the same trends pan out across the broader media landscape, and while my intent isn't to say that there are certain genres that are "BOYS ONLY" or "GIRLS ONLY", when judged as broad demographics, men and women have different tastes in different things.

Funnily enough I feel Bayonetta works precisely because it can be argued that there's more to it then just "we made this super sexy character for you to ogle at but she's also killing lots of zombies/drones/bad guys so she's empowered and its okay"

 

[Mik317]

I didn't do that here. A summary of my argument in two sentences:

This game that objectifies women is part of a pattern of games that objectify women which is, in itself, part of a historical narrative that has resulted in the objectification of women for much of recorded history. While it is never advantageous to censor such a game, it is important to acknowledge that it is part of a sexist trend that systematically works to reduce the number of women in gaming, and that a push towards variety is a push towards less of these kinds of games.

That just seems like a major contridiction to me.

Maybe I am just not understanding it or something is lost in translation.

"Im not saying things should be censorsed but I there should be less of this".

Doesn't make sense....

I don't like FPS. I want less of them. Which means I want one of the Battlefield or CODs of the world to take a year or two off and hopefully get replaced by something I do like. Its selfish and probably doesn't make much financial sense and thus won't happen but I am not going around sugarcoating my wishes on some "I don't want COD to take a year off but I really wish there were less of them...but COD would still exsist". I understand that both isn't possible. And it's not fair for my wants to supersede what is considered to be the wants of a hell of a lot more people than I. Its why I hate the "crusade" of sorts against these type of games. I don't even like these games that much. I actually only bought it to support niche games. Calling for less games like this only ruins the diversity more.

Senran Kagura is a perverted as fuck series that take pride in its perversion. It does sexualize it's cast (and appartlently actually give them actual character too....) however it's level of sexualization is hella different that say the fact that COD and Battlefield have no or barely any Female characters? And if the recet uproar over silly T&A works out, the latter sexualization will still exist and that diversity you all wish for will simply be replace by less female characters at all.

Games like this aren't the problem

 

[sn00zer]

More like niche Japanese games are getting wider release....also Japan really needs to stop with the moe popularity...its creepy no matter which way you slice it

 

[Videoneon]

Eh,.. did you read my post? Or you acted defensive for a simple comparasion when it was not even directly related with Senran Kagura.

Yes, I did. You're trying to explain why Retro might've made that comparison but I dont think it sticks. Like I said, everything with a fanbase has a peripheral demographic. And it was related to Senran Kagura. It was a comment made in passing, but it clearly had some point if it was brought up in this topic.

I'm disagreeing with that idea. I'm not vehemently shutting it down and it doesn't piss me off. It's just not a comparison that makes a point.

Why do you think I'm being defensive, by the way? I don't think MLP is a revolutionary show or anything, nor is Rarity a flawless character. I don't understand the angle.

1.- You are confusing "debate" with "telling what others what is acceptable or should be silenced or not tolerated".

2.- Problem is that you are doing a poor and superficial job if you are judging the game by the art alone, specially when people at least comments about is game narrative merits.

You are confusing my use of the phrase "unconditional right to free speech" with saying "there must be pre-established and always true maxims that exist in this discussion." What I'm responding to is not the idea of people debating (or else I just would've left this discussion), what I'm responding to is a general idea that free speech without restriction or outside influence is inferior for social reasons to speech with a small degree of limitation or heavy degree of social influence. If you look at when I made up that term, I was using it more concretely in response to questioning why calling for better female representation isn't under the free speech umbrella.

Second - you are not going to deny that the fanservice aspect of Senran Kagura is a significant part of its identity, are you? Of course every media can have plenty of traits read into it, but the influence of fanservice should be very clear.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Yes, I did. You're trying to explain why Retro might've made that comparison but I dont think it sticks. Like I said, everything with a fanbase has a peripheral demographic. And it was related to Senran Kagura. It was a comment made in passing, but it clearly had some point if it was brought up in this topic.

I'm disagreeing with that idea. I'm not vehemently shutting it down and it doesn't piss me off. It's just not a comparison that makes a point.

Why do you think I'm being defensive, by the way? I don't think MLP is a revolutionary show or anything, nor is Rarity a flawless character. I don't understand the angle.

Who the hell talked about Rarity?

 

[Videoneon]

I'm trying to guess why you think I'm being defensive. Not that I want to spend so much time on it because it threatens to derail this thread, but I don't see what I said that come across that way.

 

[BlitzEngineer]

Yea! That game that doesn't adhere to my social sensitivities and what I deem to be politically correct shouldn't be made! Because it's DAMAGING!

Fuck off. I'm not gonna buy this game but it's possible for a thing to exist that panders to a specific audience that wants that thing. If people want it, it deserves to be made and supported, you're armchair activism be damned.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I'm trying to guess why you think I'm being defensive. Not that I want to spend so much time on it because it threatens to derail this thread, but I don't see what I said that come across that way.

It shows, man. It shows...

 

[Tohsaka]

More like niche Japanese games are getting wider release....also Japan really needs to stop with the moe popularity...its creepy no matter which way you slice it

They don't, actually, Just continue not buying the games like you clearly currently are.