Tbh, she looks like she's enjoying the attention.
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(ONM) Senran Kagura Burst is damaging the industry - here's how to stop it
- Thread starter studyguy
- Start date
Tbh, she looks like she's enjoying the attention.
Actually, it's the "oh, but men have to deal with sexualization, too" that lacks sincerity, because it's often brought up without an actual desire to talk about the issues, it's just being said to shut the discussion down entirely.
I'm all for talking about the issue from both sides (and I really don't think articles like this do a good job of it, especially when it is actually telling people not to go look and see for themselves), but realize that the "guys get sexualized too" rhetoric is more similar to the "reverse racism" rhetoric than people might realize when they make such a claim.
It was a comment made in a vacuum where men and women deal with the same exact problems regarding being seen in media or in reality.
The only thing damaging the industry is the idea that developers shouldn't appeal to different niches because others are upset at what those niches enjoy. Games can continue to grow and expand without abandoning existing parts of their fanbase. There is no reason games with strong female characters can't co-exist with fan service. Other mediums do it just fine.
Prophane33
Member
I was going to buy a copy of this game, I will now buy TWO copies of this game. Keep on keepin' on.
I'm surprised Nintendo isn't having them take it down considering this will probably have an eShop release that Nintendo will make money off of?
Ignorance is bliss. They judge the game just because of the tits, it's actually a pretty good game with a lot of fan service.
I have not bought the NA release yet as I am trying to crack down on buying every game for a while, but I did import the original release
If the sequels never get released outside of Japan I think we should all bring the pitchforks to ONM.
Ignorance is bliss. They judge the game just because of the tits, it's actually a pretty good game with a lot of fan service.
I have not bought the NA release yet as I am trying to crack down on buying every game for a while, but I did import the original release
If the sequels never get released outside of Japan I think we should all bring the pitchforks to ONM.
Green Biker Dude
Banned
i was touched by a breast once and it gave me cooties. someone stop this game before calamity falls upon humanity
But why must this particular game have to appeal to those who are turned off by boobs? What about the people who like that kind of content? Should Reese's stop using chocolate in their peanut butter cups, too? I mean, some people don't like chocolate, and the peanut butter alone should be strong enough to "stand on its own" if it's any good, right?
I like you.
This is a great comment. The one game that made my skin crawl from 'sexism' was Other M. On the surface it's the most anti-sexist game you could have - female MC saves the world etc, but playing it it just seemed to go out of its way to show how different Samus was because of her gender, from maternal issues to her daddy issues with Adam etc. Those differences were not a good thing. She was weaker for them. It coloured the whole experience for me. That's far more insidious than a niche game about happy boobs to me.
Have you even played it? The gameplay is one of it's greatest assets.
Umh... I'd say that's not quite the same. Especially the sports example... that's more to do with the sports culture in question altogether (the people playing football etc. are so desperate to succeed and size is very important in those sports, getting there faster is tempting when the "normal" route could/would take years). It's less to do with them being bombarted with images of these hugely muscular men everywhere and more to do with members of those sports having to be certaing way if they want to be successful. Not to say it's not a serious problem (coaches and the society at large should focus on solving it, but it's not this thing that can affect all men from all walks of life), but that stems from a completely different problem altogether.
Not to deny the pressure isn't there, but still, as you said, it's only unhealthy when taken to the extreme, if, like, a prepubescent 7 year old starts obsessing about weight lifting or if someone goes to the extreme of using steroids, but those are small minorities, whereas anorexia and bulimia and other eating disorders can be a more or less serious problem for, IIRC, close to 30-40% of girls & women at some point in their life (usually in their teens/early 20s).
Well, like I said, it's that women are bombarded with those kinds of rolemodels from everywhere. Sure these kinds of things are mostly aimed at men, but it's not like no woman ever sees any of these animes or such and can't be influenced by that, even if subconsciously or even if it just reinforces what they've already gotten from non-anime portrayals of women.
I didn't say anything about it being just games, you just assumed I meant so. I should have clarified because you were talking about games only, but anyways, my point still stands. Having these unrealistic/unhealthy role models being pushed on women from all sides IS doing some real harm, no matter how innocent & non-damaging the men who play these kinds of games and watch these kinds of movies think their hobby is.
Ugh.
After last year's torrent of terrible games journalism you would think said journalists would have a little more restraint and humility rather than assuming themselves qualified to be the moral judges of gaming.
I find the increasing arrogance and patronizing attitude of games journalists to be insufferable.
After last year's torrent of terrible games journalism you would think said journalists would have a little more restraint and humility rather than assuming themselves qualified to be the moral judges of gaming.
I find the increasing arrogance and patronizing attitude of games journalists to be insufferable.
Weltall Zero
Member
Some males, too, including me. But hey, I think the same of military shooters, so, freedom of speech, to each their own and all that.
dakkumauji
Member
I honestly have no idea what recent Gust products you are even talking about that promotes fanservice over good gameplay.
You're the second person to state this by way of pulling it out of their ass. Do you have some evidence that men are the driving factor behind discussing women's body issues? Or is it just that it's mostly men journalists? And do you have any evidence for that assumption?
Because the long history of feminism includes many, many examples of women driving this discussion of how women are portrayed in media.
d34thfrom4bov3
Member
These two wrap up my thoughts pretty nicely. This isn't a huge genre and I wouldn't be surprised if noise about this got louder and it ended up pulling a Dragon's Crown because of the free publicity.
SousedLouse
Member
I'm not saying that expanding the market is the one and only solution. I'm just saying that the industry tends to be terribly misguided when it comes to predicting trends or catering to a specific audience. I've never been comfortable with the idea that devs supposedly know what they're doing because they have focus tests to work with; information like that only helps when you use it constructively, and a lot of them don't really do that.
But since we're on the topic of demographics, and how they can react to games, there's something that should be mentioned. A dev has to know who they're making the game for and who they're not making it for, and the types of reactions they'll get from people who are interested or disinterested in it, as well as the type they might get from people who are against it.
I'm pretty sure that Tamsoft knows all too well that articles like this would be written about Senran Kagura Burst - considering how hesitant most niche publishers were to bargain for it, I'm sure it was mentioned - and while they might take the criticisms personally, I doubt that they'll make any significant changes to the game because of them. To them, this is the '3D titty' game, made to appeal to the '3D titty' audience; they know it's niche and they don't expect it to become some sort of runaway success, so they just threw in whatever came up. They know its main premise is outright exclusionary to people who aren't down with 3D titties, and they're willing to accept the consequences.
In contrast, a game that isn't niche - a game that depends on getting into as many hands as possible - has to be more focused than that. When a whole bunch of people notice or criticize something about it as a negative, its developer can't afford to just brush them off as hot air, because said thing is actively interfering with their goal of getting that game into as many hands as possible. Also, they're definitely not helping themselves when they just brush off complaints because that's exclusionary - and outside of all the debates on creative and cultural responsibility, devs can't afford to be too exclusionary if they're trying to get lots of people interested in their game. Plus, from what I usually see, a lot of complaints about inclusiveness come from sloppiness on the developer's part - a poorly-written segment here, some derivative character designs over there, a filler cast that has a gender imbalance 'just because', etc. I'm not a big fan of aiming solely for a specific audience in general, but if a developer is willing to shoot themselves in the foot for the sake of one audience, I think that avoiding bloat and aimlessness for the sake of other people that might still be interested in their work is an idea worth looking into. It often seems like a lot of issues could be sidestepped by just putting thought into what they spend money on and create during development, instead of throwing it in 'just because'. So I think that devs can save themselves some stress by being more conscious about how they approach the development process.
I didn't pull it out of my ass, it's something i've often experienced.
Admittedly, it's Worthless in an argument. But it's still something i notice and others often do so as well.
Me and my wife are watching the Senran Kagura anime on Hulu currently, and we're having fun with it.
She's enjoying the cartoon, and laughing at the absurdity of the boobs jiggling all over the place in the show. She's also a feminist, and we have some great conversations about sexism and racism in the gaming industry, movie, films, etc, but shows like Senran, she just rolls her eyes about it because it's so over the top to her. I'm not saying it's not exploitative or wrong, however, and I think sexism is a big deal in the industry (and I see it constantly, what with working in the gaming industry, where I often hear a lot of bs being spewed about women, even when half of our office is female employees, and our boss is a woman...).
I also think the author of the article is making some big assumptions about how the average female gamer will see games like Senran Kagura, or Dead or Alive.
For example, my wife thinks DoA is stupid, but that's because she doesn't like fighting games. She thinks games like DCUO and Senran are fine. In DCUO, she often finds herself moving the boob and curves slider to make her characters more curvy. She doesn't go all out like I do, but she's not running around with an A cup.
What offends her more than the tits of the female characters in games is how they are portrayed.
For example, she absolutely loves Elena and Chloe from Uncharted, as well as Commander Shepard in Mass Effect. On the flip side, she absolutely HATES what Crystal Dynamics have done to Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider. As well as Alice in that Once Upon A Time in Wonderland show, because she's a horribly written character. Just throwing a sword in her hand and having her beat up a few people doesn't suddenly make her a "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER! TM." There's more to it than that, and she thinks Alice is just an awfully realized character on that show.
Curvaceous women in video games, film, television, and books, etc, etc, aren't what's upsetting women. It's shitty, stereotypical and sexist portrayals of women that tends to be more of what bother's them. Similar to how black people get annoyed at how blacks are portrayed in film, television, games, etc, etc.
We need more Elenas and Chloes, and not because they aren't traditionally buxom or curvy, but because they are fantastic characters that are well written and acted.
Some people act like women are so terribly insecure and superficial that seeing a beautiful woman in a video game fills them with an uncontrollable, hormone driven rage and jealousy.
She's enjoying the cartoon, and laughing at the absurdity of the boobs jiggling all over the place in the show. She's also a feminist, and we have some great conversations about sexism and racism in the gaming industry, movie, films, etc, but shows like Senran, she just rolls her eyes about it because it's so over the top to her. I'm not saying it's not exploitative or wrong, however, and I think sexism is a big deal in the industry (and I see it constantly, what with working in the gaming industry, where I often hear a lot of bs being spewed about women, even when half of our office is female employees, and our boss is a woman...).
I also think the author of the article is making some big assumptions about how the average female gamer will see games like Senran Kagura, or Dead or Alive.
For example, my wife thinks DoA is stupid, but that's because she doesn't like fighting games. She thinks games like DCUO and Senran are fine. In DCUO, she often finds herself moving the boob and curves slider to make her characters more curvy. She doesn't go all out like I do, but she's not running around with an A cup.
What offends her more than the tits of the female characters in games is how they are portrayed.
For example, she absolutely loves Elena and Chloe from Uncharted, as well as Commander Shepard in Mass Effect. On the flip side, she absolutely HATES what Crystal Dynamics have done to Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider. As well as Alice in that Once Upon A Time in Wonderland show, because she's a horribly written character. Just throwing a sword in her hand and having her beat up a few people doesn't suddenly make her a "STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER! TM." There's more to it than that, and she thinks Alice is just an awfully realized character on that show.
Curvaceous women in video games, film, television, and books, etc, etc, aren't what's upsetting women. It's shitty, stereotypical and sexist portrayals of women that tends to be more of what bother's them. Similar to how black people get annoyed at how blacks are portrayed in film, television, games, etc, etc.
We need more Elenas and Chloes, and not because they aren't traditionally buxom or curvy, but because they are fantastic characters that are well written and acted.
Some people act like women are so terribly insecure and superficial that seeing a beautiful woman in a video game fills them with an uncontrollable, hormone driven rage and jealousy.
sensui-tomo
Member
Saw the thing during the whole Dragon's Crown debacle but that's a place i'd rather not go again as it was stupid arguments back and forth.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I agree with the article's points about the game specifically, at least insomuch as my exposure to media from the game allows. It is sexist, the box-art alone is about as clear cut an example of objectification as you can get. Of course some people don't care if something is sexist and that's...eh, whatever, taste and all that, although this is the kind of thing I'll argue about in detail if it becomes the focus of the discussion.
I disagree with his extrapolation of this game to the entire industry. He's right that its emblematic of some sexism that occurs with problematic frequency, but I don't think he's framing it properly here. The game is much more of a symptom then I would call it a disease.
Now to read this thread and prepare some detailed responses.
I disagree with his extrapolation of this game to the entire industry. He's right that its emblematic of some sexism that occurs with problematic frequency, but I don't think he's framing it properly here. The game is much more of a symptom then I would call it a disease.
Now to read this thread and prepare some detailed responses.
Green Mamba
Member
This seems like the lowest hanging fruit you could possibly go for.
So confirmation bias and no evidence.
michaelius
Banned
Thanfully as Dragon Crown shows us it usually backfires by giving game free marketing and exposure
Tits are life, ass is hometown.
Words to die for.
... and I hope we'll get some glorious Streisand effect from this
I really love him and his honesty.
MegaMelon
Member
LOL. I didn't even realise my own name's implications.
Gotta say though, if we were to do what the writer proposed then where would we draw the line between allowed and objectifying? I think the writer just knew that this would get him lot's of clicks cause it doesn't make much sense.
Mushroomer25
Member
I feel like SKB knows what it is, and the people who are buying it know what it is. A medium can't really be put down by trashy examples, when those examples are wholly aware of their status. Film didn't cease to be an artform when the exploitation movement started up in the 70s. Rather, the industry acknowledged those movies for what they were, and generally just ignored them. Why should this be any different? It's not like the game is blowing up the sales charts, it's not like it's being actively promoted as the season's best release, and it's really not even pretending to be anything other than playable softcore porn. So why make some big deal about it?
FlyingSaucer
Banned
Note that the anime is 9000x more fanservicey than the game (basically, the staff went for the Highschool DxD/Ikkitousen crowd). The 3DS game is way, way more ambiguous in its mix between sexy comedy and drama.
Delusibeta
Banned
I suppose it's more a reflection of how male dominated games journalism is, but I would agree that the majority of articles on mainstream gaming blogs (e.g. on Kotaku, Polygon, RPS et al) about the subject is written by men. Certainly, most of the posts that results in internet drama was written by men.
I suppose that's partly because articles on the subject outside of the mainstream blogs don't get posted here, which doesn't help.
Enosh
Member
I'll never understand this one
does the fact that women are 45% of the market mean that every game from now on must take into consideration the wishes of said 45%?
if a dev and publisher wants to make a game that ignores said 45% or vice versa I don't really see the problem with that
Oh yeah? I had no idea, as I haven't played any of the games, but was curious about picking up the Vita version. We're enjoying the anime so far though, but we're only a few episodes into it. It's just an absurd cartoon, with women with absurd proportions. We can't help but smile at it. I feel kind of bad about it. Lol.
And do you think these games journalists began writing about this because A) it suddenly occurred to them in a vacuum or B) because there's a fifty+ year history of women and men writing about how women are presented in the media?
The idea floated -- which is that women care less about how they're portrayed in the media than men -- is an attempt to silence the criticisms by acting as if men don't have standing to make such claims. This is ridiculous on its face. We all benefit from less exist media.
It may be true that of the set of postings that show up on GAF regarding women's portrayal in the media, is weighted heavily toward men because men are the primary video game writers, but that's a subset of a subset of the discussion about how women are portrayed in the media.
Even given those caveats, I suspect you're wrong. But until someone actually counts them up and tallies them, we're likely both just regurgitating our own confirmation biases. And that's pretty much the definition of pulling something out of one's ass.
I dislike Senran Kagura for its fanservices, but damaging the industry? Does this guy what he's talking about? 50 Shades of Grey sold for millions and no one said that book damaging the literature industry. Subtle sexism in many bookis far more serious than blatant fan service. Step the game up, "journalist".
Looks like the others are know what I'm talking about. Why are these "journalist" so superficial, only look things from their cover, not what inside. Never touch anything substacially.
Looks like the others are know what I'm talking about. Why are these "journalist" so superficial, only look things from their cover, not what inside. Never touch anything substacially.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Seriously?
Matt Attack
Member
I think that The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker is a pretty great game, but it's art style doesn't appeal to everybody. I'd hope people who dislike the cel shading would still give it a chance, as they may find that it's a really fun adventure. Similarly, Senran Kagura is a pretty fun portable brawler. It has a ton of content and makes an earnest attempt at making the characters feel like more than just boobs and butts. Of course, the sexualized aspects pretty much make up the game's identity, and it doesn't try to hide this fact at all. That being said, the game is more than that- it's an example of why you shouldn't always judge a book by its cover.
Not everybody is going to be able to get over the presentation though, and that's okay. If something made me feel really uncomfortable, I probably wouldn't want to have to deal with it if I had the choice. There is definitely an audience for this sort of game though, and they should be able to play it as it is.
It's not terrible when people disagree with each other. It would probably be terrible if there was never any disagreement. I only think that the article had a bit too much hyperbole, to the point where it was doing a disservice both to the readers and to the game. Just because I think it's a bad article though doesn't mean that I think it shouldn't have been written. I respect the author's right to share their opinion. Also, I hope buying Senran Kagura doesn't make me a bad person. It was a lot of fun, and I'd hate for that to be viewed as a bad thing.
Sure they did, and for multiple reasons. Any number of feminists were displeased with it, as well as industry wanks who are afraid that its provenance suggests traditional publishing is on the way out. Forbes wrote articles about it, the NYT wrote articles about it. It was a minor furor. Papers called it "mommie porn" and just generally freaked out over its existence. Some women's groups called it "Fifty Shades of Abuse".
This is another factual untruth I see in these discussions frequently -- that other media somehow gets a free pass, when it genuinely doesn't. Any media with a risque topic or a sexist viewpoint is going to get written about heavily, both in the negative and positive sense. This includes movies, books, TV, and everything else. About the only defense from having a work critiqued like this is to have a work that's so poorly known that no one bothers.
Ding.
I think the game's disgusting, but it's a niche game with a niche audience that has absolutely nothing to do with me.
Delusibeta
Banned
Petition Marvellous AQL to do a PC port, then. Apparently, they're going to do that for Half Minute Hero 2. :v
Actually, there's a thought: would the fact that Xseed is a subsidiary of Marvellous AQL improved the chances of Senran Kagura getting localised? Especially considering the EU release is being handled by Marvellous AQL Europe (via Zen United and pQube).
Its seem weird to aim the game even if truly "wrong" anyway, its not exactly blockbuster game.. Its niche game that aimed to niche audience, let them have their fun.
I hate that kind of mindset.
Like every "turn based RPG need to fuck off" thread that often to pop in this forum, ignoring the sub-genre have their fan, and people like me regard it as favorite kind of game.
"But NOOOOOOOOO all game must according to my taste, its outdated, fuck you" such a egoistical mindset.
I hate that kind of mindset.
Like every "turn based RPG need to fuck off" thread that often to pop in this forum, ignoring the sub-genre have their fan, and people like me regard it as favorite kind of game.
"But NOOOOOOOOO all game must according to my taste, its outdated, fuck you" such a egoistical mindset.
Yes. Who do you think exaggerated anime boob products are aimed at? It's part of the creepy Akiba otaku sub-culture, for young men whose hobbies are arranging expensive action figures on their shelves, posting on 2ch, playing eroge and masturbating. It's a niche.
A creepy niche.
Well, sorry to be ignorant on this matter because I don't exactly follows literature news. But my point is that the content of this ONM article, and how they wrote it overweight the size and possible audience of the game. For 50 Shades of Grey to damage the industry of literature is have some weight to it because its literary selling millions. Senran Kagura meanwhile will hardly break 100k worldwide (excluding Japan) and it'll serve for niche audience that already accustomed to such thing. Exaggeration wouldn't get your point accross, it only hurts it. If the article take on this matter in rather goofy way, and lean more on the fanservice side than being it "hurting a whole industry", it'll gain more positive traction than this.
Giolon
Member
This kind of stereotyping is gross. People get called out on it when they do it for other groups, and you should too.
game center cx is (sadly) even less than that in the west, to be honest
100% agree with this