Support NeoGAF

[Dynamite Shikoku]

Another productive day for these geniuses.

 

[Stereogatari]

Cultural decline seems to coincide 1) Mongol Invasion 2) Colonialism, 3) US-backed coups. Countries need to start learning to stop interfering with other countries' internal affairs.

Ironically there are (I think) more Muslims named Ghengis in the world than Mongols. He was quite respected, specifically by the Mongol's cousins the Turks (the name is common and spelled Cengiz) and the most powerful Indian Muslim Empire was called the Mughal Empire tracking back a Mongol heritage of its rulers.

Indeed in Turkey Ghengis Khan is viewed as a national hero and one of the national epics (Cengizname) is based on his life story, none of that negative stigma he gets in the West or by Arabs/Persians/Afghans. Even some Turkish girls are inadvertently named after him, since Deniz (meaning ocean) is a gender neutral Turkish name that is cognate with Cengiz.

Sorry for the tangent but I thought it was worth pointing out. It's weird to think how for most Muslims the Mongols may have been a big step back due to the civilisation destruction, but Turks and Turkic people view the guy as an ethnic kin and great leader.

 

[nick nacc]

This happened in my city today too (Amman, Jordan). Crowds were marching towards the French embassy and demanding to end cooperation with governments that allow insults to Islam to be published. There were clashes with police and arrests.

Slightly ironic considering our king and queen marched in Paris earlier this week.

source (Arabic)

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

 

[Stereogatari]

Soon around 1700s, man by the name of Abdul Wahhab was born in the present day Arabia. He dispensed a strict, austere version of Islam that was a complete political antithetis to the Turkish Caliphate's more grandoise, liberal Islam.

Someone who knows their shit. I despise the often repeated false narrative (sadly even common in Turkey itself) that Turkey was a fundamentalist hellhole like Saudi Arabia and then all of a sudden Ataturk turned it into a super duper Europe land. Ataturk was a special man, but still a product of his times, he wasn't the only Turk brewing with French revolution influenced ideas. In fact Turkey might have still been a constitutional monarchy like some European countries still are, if not for the Sultan's abuse of power after the Tanzimat Reforms (a beta version of what Ataturk did). It was that abuse of power (and collusion with the European powers) that influenced Ataturk to remove the guy.

 

[Loofy]

source (Arabic)

For some reason i thought hijabs wouldnt be common in Jordan since the Queen doesnt seem to like wearing one.

 

[Lamel]

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

I disagree with their protesting, but this really isn't called for man...

 

[DiipuSurotu]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-30853305

"At least four people have been killed in violent protests against French magazine Charlie Hebdo in Niger."

 

[Naked Snake]

For some reason i thought hijabs wouldnt be common in Jordan since the Queen doesnt seem to like wearing one.

That's a non-sequitur.

They're pretty damn common here actually. More common in the poorer areas (almost universally worn there I'd say), and less so in what is called "west Amman", but still around 50% of women even in those more liberals areas if I were to hazard a guess (my guess might be way off).

I find them an eyesore personally.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Just turn the other cheek. You get used to people nonchalantly calling for your non-existence.

Except, you know, no one did.

Well, get used to the idea that Islam isn't a cult.

You never actually provided a delineation as to why something cannot be considered both. If it's size, what's the threshold to become a religion. If it's "legitimacy" who decided what's legitimate.

Well don't let me stop you on your anti-religion crusade. You're no more better an arguer* because you seemingly shit on everyone. It just means you're not discriminatory about it.

edit: on reflection, maybe it does make you slightly more ethical.

How is it an anti-religion crusade to be critical of all manner of religion when criticism is warranted?

 

[Stereogatari]

Except, you know, no one did.
You never actually provided a delineation as to why something cannot be considered both. If it's size, what's the threshold to become a religion. If it's "legitimacy" who decided what's legitimate.

I think the fact that Islam and being Muslim is historically attached to a large number of diverse ethnic groups and cultures makes calling it a cult a fuzzy area, since Islam has influenced a lot of cultures to points beyond strict religious observance (if that makes sense).

But in the cases where people's zealotry blinds them from rational thought, then yes I would say those kind of Muslims are part of a cult.

 

[RustyNails]

Except, you know, no one did.
You never actually provided a delineation as to why something cannot be considered both. If it's size, what's the threshold to become a religion. If it's "legitimacy" who decided what's legitimate.

My understanding (I could be wrong) of a cult is that it is an exclusivist membership to a group that has secret, or hidden religious rituals and practices. By being more inclusive and public, it no longer remains a cult. Islam does not fit this description, but Scientology does.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Such sad, misguided human beings. These people and most of us are living in two worlds, experiencing two realities, separated by thousands of years...but simultaneously. It's crazy to think about.

 

[Cartman86]

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

You're an ass hole.

 

[m_shortpants]

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

What the hell?

 

[shinra-bansho]

The cultural and ethnic diversity is an interesting delineation. Although under such would something like Anglicanism be pervasive enough to be excluded from being a cult.

On exclusivity, would the openness of Jediism then make it no longer a cult. Or is it then excluded because of its relative size.

 

[ATF487]

Religion fascinates me and absolutely terrifies me.

 

[Aureon]

Decided to do a little research based on one of the names in the article.

Jamaat-e-Islami, the group who organised the protest and presumably created those charming banners, are a social conservative, and Islamist political party. Its objective is to make Pakistan an Islamic state, governed by Sharia law. It was founded in India but moved (?) to Pakistan after Indian independence.

In Pakistan, The party came under severe government repression in 1948, 1953, and 1963. In other words, presumably because the leadership in Pakistan were not in favour of their aims, but later during the early years of the regime of General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, they served as the "regime's ideological and political arm". So suddenly they found a political leader open to supporting them.

Who is General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq? He was the sixth President of Pakistan from 1978 until his death in 1988. Aided by the United States and Saudi Arabia, he systematically coordinated the Afghan mujahideen against the Soviet occupation throughout the 1980s. He rose to power following a coup and the removal of Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto from office.

The United States, notably the Reagan's Administration, was an ardent supporter of Zia's military regime and a close ally of Pakistan's conservative-leaning ruling military establishment. The Reagan administration declared Zia's regime as the "front line" ally of the United States in the fight against the Communism.

Many of Pakistan's political scientists and historians widely suspected that the riots and coup against Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was orchestrated with help of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the United States Government because United States growing fear of Bhutto's socialist policies which were seen as sympathetic towards the Soviet Union.

Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark widely suspected the United States' involvement in bringing down the Bhutto's government, and publicly accused the United States' Government after attending the trial.

So now we have a bit of an insight as to how a fringe, far-right fundamentalist political party was able to gain a foothold in Pakistan.

Quite a web, eh? Politics, intrigue, double dealing, coups, CIA, Reagan.

But of course it's only about religion. A lot of posters here have it figured out.

Thank you for research.

 

[MHWilliams]

This happened in my city today too (Amman, Jordan). Crowds were marching towards the French embassy and demanding to end cooperation with governments that allow insults to Islam to be published. There were clashes with police and arrests.

Slightly ironic considering our king and queen marched in Paris earlier this week.

source (Arabic)

This covers what seemed odd about those first images. Why were those signs in English?

 

[RustyNails]

The cultural and ethnic diversity is an interesting delineation. Although under such would something like Anglicanism be pervasive enough to be excluded from being a cult.

On exclusivity, would the openness of Jediism then make it no longer a cult. Or is it then excluded because of its relative size.

You have to draw a line somewhere. I don't think Islam is a cult. But certain movements within Islam, sure. Such as the Hashhashins (or the Assassins) in the 10th century Syria, a sub-sect of Nizari Ismaili Shias. Those dudes were heavily into drugs (hash hash) and did weird rituals.

 

[Oppo]

My understanding (I could be wrong) of a cult is that it is an exclusivist membership to a group that has secret, or hidden religious rituals and practices. By being more inclusive and public, it no longer remains a cult. Islam does not fit this description, but Scientology does.

I would agree with this. it was mentioned up thread. the most useful distinction for the word "cult" is exclusionary social contact, alongside all the other markers. Islam as a whole definitely doesn't fit that; quite the opposite in fact. even radical splinter factions don't eschew all outside contact.

the thing about the topic at hand, though, is that I don't care why those gunman did what they did, ultimately. I don't care if their religion or their interpretation of religion supports the act. my godless atheist non-soul screams that it is inexcusable. so what does it matter what twisted logic led to it, outside of academic curiosity, a search for context outside of the barbarity of the terror. I care that they did it. so all the wrangling around a common denominator is noise at some point.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

In other "WTF Pakistan?!" News

The gov't finally bans The Haqqani Network
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/15/us-security-pakistan-usa-idUSKBN0KO2GP20150115

 

[Shaanyboi]

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

great fucking contribution

 

[Dai101]

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

Really?

 

[diamount]

I wonder if they protested when a schoolful of people got killed in their own country? Probably not....

Who says there wasn't any protests? Are international media outlets interested in covering that?

 

[Blackquill]

I... Oh dear, I'll never understand religion.

More like "I'll never understand stupid people"

 

[beast786]

Cultural decline seems to coincide 1) Mongol Invasion 2) Colonialism, 3) US-backed coups. Countries need to start learning to stop interfering with other countries' internal affairs.

Actually, I'll date it back around 800-900 in defeat of
Mu‘tazilites /kalam and eventual victory for al-ghazali.

This is where it lost its critical path. Reasoning was gone


As much as I lol at there rage. They have absolute every right to march

 

[Jeels]

Just another day in Pakistan I guess..

It's amazing to see how some cultures forever seem stuck in medieval mentalities.
Maybe their next gen will see some light.

What the hell, this isn't Pakistani culture.

 

[SapientWolf]

As much as i understand the motives of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonsits, they really are just fanning the flames

Sure youre entitled to freedom of speech, but at the expense of your own life? Your families life? Your colleagues lives?

Seems pretty silly. They groups they are pissing off arent the kind to just rally arnd protest

They can, will and have instigated brutal attacks

It Hebdo backed down after the violence then they are essentially announcing that terrorism is the way to get what you want.

 

[Fusebox]

What the hell, this isn't Pakistani culture.

#notruepakistani

 

[Gambit 1138]

So perfect

 

[SolidusDave]

while not capital punishment (up to 3 years though) in germany blasphemy is a crime as well.

Which is also ridiculous.
In context, though, the implementation is not about people feeling insulted about their faith nor are religions protected from criticism or satire in any way. However, if you publicly radicalize (e.g. "Islam is a religion of rapists" or something like that) that can be considered threatening the public order/peace. It's like a mix of the laws against insults and hate speech. Prison sentences (especially not on probation) are rare though.
Should be removed, especially because the definition for what can count for this law is very imprecise.



There are many countries with such laws, but I focused on the ones with capital punishment, to point out that in these countries there would be no need for terrorists as satirists like CH would get officially executed by the law and the general public would be fine with that.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Fuckers must be so pissed that gunning them down didn't change Charlie's attitude.

 

[triplestation]

Those guys are out of tune

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

Uhh?

 

[Condom]

What the hell, this isn't Pakistani culture.

Indeed, Pakistan (like other countries) is victim of shady governance that utterly disrupts their society.

This leads to people believing country A or B has an inherently violent culture while decades of destructive politics go unnoticed.

 

[cripterion]

Religion fascinates me and absolutely terrifies me.

It disgusts me. How can people get worked over so much on make believe things.
Yes I say make believe things cause they have no proof whatsoever this stuff is true or not, and even if it was, what gives an individual the right to kill in the name of his faith, just cause said faith was ridiculed?

I'm reading reports of a burned French cultural center in Niger, 1 cop and 3 civilians died and some manifestants were sporting the "Boko Haram" flag.

These fucks marching because of a caricature made by a small time journal in a foreign country yet in the meantime people claiming appertainance to the same faith are killing innocents with bombs attached to 10 year old girls? 16 villages destroyed and over 2000 deaths?
And a drawing of the prophet is the highest form of terrorism in the world?

 

[King_Moc]

Depends on where they live. People in the larger cities receive far more, where there are major universities. People in the tribal and regions bordering afghanistan receive comparatively very little. Youth are on average more educated than older generations.

The overall literacy rate is pretty low due to the rampant poverty. The people with the money are the ones who can afford the most education, which is why the system there is pretty fucked. They need to invest in education asap.

Given that the government supports their fucked up ideology, I doubt they're in a hurry to educate anyone on anything. Except blind hatred, of course.

 

[Joni]

Don't be so ignorant. Not all of Pakistan is there.

Indeed, not all of Pakistan is there. My reaction is mostly based on the other fact, the fact their political and religious leaders condemned the cartoons.

 

[Nozem]

This mindset is pretty scary. If you value actual human lives less than your religion, killing in the name of that religion suddenly makes a whole lot of sense.

 

[funkypie]

FFS, stop generalizing a bunch of guys to a whole nation and calling them "morons". For the last time, the whole fucking country is not like this. It fucking sucks when I see people using news like this to judge the whole country.

a poll showed what 60 to 70% of pakistanis are in favour of killing people who insult the prophet? pakistan is a mess lets be honest, people don't need to generalise that country.

 

[fastford58]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30848689

Images from article in Swedish: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/valdsam-protest-mot-charlie-hebdo/

A well placed JDAM would sort that shit out in short order.

 

[6.8]

Who says there wasn't any protests? Are international media outlets interested in covering that?

I was referring to these protesters specifically. That's usually what "they" is used for.

 

[Toparaman]

That first image...whaaaaaaa?

 

[zoukka]

Fucking idiots. I can't imagine what kind of life you must have when your number one concern is that someone in another country drew a picture of an old dead man.

A life under total propaganda from the day you are born. That kind of life.

 

[RustyNails]

A well placed JDAM would sort that shit out in short order.

wow...

 

[Mesoian]

too many ugly bitches in that crowd

I feel like there's a joke I'm missing here.

 

[-COOLIO-]

A well placed JDAM would sort that shit out in short order.

...

Wow.

 

[Cloud Strife]

A well placed JDAM would sort that shit out in short order.

:|

No.

 

[Majorzero]

200 people protest and it gets a 10 page thread with 36,000 views on neogaf. smh

 

[BreezyLimbo]

200 people protest and it gets a 10 page thread with 36,000 views on neogaf. smh

What the hell does this even mean?