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[Stereogatari]

Just want to say that Turkish Media is absolutely furious with the fans that whistled the minute's silence. The Turkish National football team manager had a very scathing interview re: the whistling and a Turkish football analyst said something like "Ok if you want to make division due to religion whatever, but then why do you whistle when 12 Muslims have died in the attacks, including 1 Turkish girl! What religion teaches you this kind of division? I've read the Koran show me where it says such things." While the message is good, the last part is wrong. The Koran clearly encourages religious division even if you interpret it non-violently.

Hey GAF, I am a bit out of the loop as far as everything that has been going on. I haven't been following it like I should be but I wanted to ask a question. What has the Muslim community's response been to the attacks? Has there been any large anti-ISIS protests or anything? I haven't seen much pop up on social media except for that negative soccer video and a positive story about 30 Muslims joining the masses to mourn.

I am a liberal and currently support the effort to bring refugees to the US if that makes any difference. Just mostly curious what the response has been because I haven't seen anything come up in my social circles. But then again, I am seeing a lot of anti-Muslim talk from my social network feeds so.....

What response is expected? Could Belgians not protest also, at how their security forces missed all of this?

 

[Palette Swap]

More cracking down on these guys:

Authorities in Belgium have launched six new raids in the Brussels region linked to Paris suicide bomber Bilal Hadfi, according to Associated Press, quoting an official in the Belgian federal prosecutor’s office.

Molenbeek, the run-down suburb which has been at the heart of police investigations over the past days, is the focus of one of the raids, as well as other areas of Brussels.

(From The Guardian but it's everywhere)

 

[azyless]

Hey GAF, I am a bit out of the loop as far as everything that has been going on. I haven't been following it like I should be but I wanted to ask a question. What has the Muslim community's response been to the attacks? Has there been any large anti-ISIS protests or anything? I haven't seen much pop up on social media except for that negative soccer video and a positive story about 30 Muslims joining the masses to mourn.

Protests and the likes have been forbidden until tomorrow I think. I've only seen condemnations of the attack so far, and unlike the Charlie Hebdo one I can't imagine any spokesperson for the muslim community "sympathizing" with the attackers. Whether that'll reach everyone or not I don't know but they are making efforts. The Grand Mosque of Paris has called for a protest tomorrow and for all french muslims to pray for the victims.
I also just read this yesterday, which I think brings up many good points.

 

[UnrealEck]

I'm all for getting rid of ISIS. But the problem won't stop there. Where they got the ideas from in the first place is the scripture. The problem with the scripture is that it's unalterable. It's the final word of god. It cannot be challenged or changed. It is totalitarian.

 

[Stereogatari]

I'm all for getting rid of ISIS. But the problem won't stop there. Where they got the ideas from in the first place is the scripture. The problem with the scripture is that it's unalterable. It's the final word of god. It cannot be challenged or changed. It is totalitarian.

It's unalterable yes. But the extent of individual Muslims religiosity can be altered. The Muslim World has loads and loads of Muslims in name only who are not religious at all and even many of the "religious" Muslims don't read the scripture (or if they do it's in a language they don't understand). The more of those kinds of Muslims we get the better thing will be become. To get more of those types of Muslims we need strong economies across the Muslim World so people will be less motivated by religion and more motivated by consumerism and capitalism.

That's what happened to Christianity in Europe. Europe had a big advantage. Cultural unity, so that's why Europe as a whole went through the Enlightenment. The Muslim World doesn't have such a cultural unity, so there isn't going to be a big enlightenment that affects all Muslim countries. It'll only be limited to each cultural sphere at best (the Arab World, the South Asian World, The Iranic World etc.).

You could argue the Turkic World (and Turkic influenced Balkan World) already has gone through this process.

 

[womfalcs3]

Just want to say that Turkish Media is absolutely furious with the fans that whistled the minute's silence. The Turkish National football team manager had a very scathing interview re: the whistling and a Turkish football analyst said something like "Ok if you want to make division due to religion whatever, but then why do you whistle when 12 Muslims have died in the attacks, including 1 Turkish girl! What religion teaches you this kind of division? I've read the Koran show me where it says such things." While the message is good, the last part is wrong. The Koran clearly encourages religious division even if you interpret it non-violently.



What response is expected?

No it doesn't. Having distinctions isn't the same as having divisions. The Koran further groups Muslims, Christians, and Jews as "The People of the Book". It is okay... a post on a forum won't make a difference so I'm not sure mine would.

 

[Stereogatari]

No it doesn't. Having distinctions isn't the same as having divisions. The Koran further groups Muslims, Christians, and Jews as "The People of the Book". It is okay... a post on a forum won't make a difference so I'm not sure mine would.

I don't want to go down this argument either, but I've read the Quran in English in full and it seemed pretty clear. One of the most commonly repeated verses is "Follow the path of Allah or hell-fire awaits". I don't think the "People of the Book" technicality works, and even if it does then what happens to Polytheists and other non-Abrahamic religions?

 

[azyless]

I'm all for getting rid of ISIS. But the problem won't stop there. Where they got the ideas from in the first place is the scripture. The problem with the scripture is that it's unalterable. It's the final word of god. It cannot be challenged or changed. It is totalitarian.

Well, it'll be hard to do in the Middle East yeah, but surely there are things we can do to avoid this kind of radicalization in western countries at least.

You could argue the Turkic World (and Turkic influenced Balkan World) already has gone through this process.

A few years ago maybe, but Turkey's so called secularity has been slowly going to shit under Erdogan, specially once you step foot out of Istanbul.

 

[NilaDebila]

Hey GAF, I am a bit out of the loop as far as everything that has been going on. I haven't been following it like I should be but I wanted to ask a question. What has the Muslim community's response been to the attacks? Has there been any large anti-ISIS protests or anything? I haven't seen much pop up on social media except for that negative soccer video and a positive story about 30 Muslims joining the masses to mourn.

I am a liberal and currently support the effort to bring refugees to the US if that makes any difference. Just mostly curious what the response has been because I haven't seen anything come up in my social circles. But then again, I am seeing a lot of anti-Muslim talk from my social network feeds so.....

Please realize there is no such thing as 'THE muslim community'. There are many. The actions of one community have nothing to do with the actions of another. There've been many denouncements made by many communities. These attacks have nothing to do with Islam though, so I think it's best to change your frame of thinking and not group Muslims together as one conscious entity (a bit of a hyperbole, English is not my native language, couldn't find the nuance, hope it gets the point accross).

 

[Starfield]

Please realize there is no such thing as 'THE muslim community'. There are many. The actions of one community have nothing to do with the actions of another. There've been many denouncements made by many communities. These attacks have nothing to do with Islam though, so I think it's best to change your frame of thinking and not group Muslims together as one conscious entity (a bit of a hyperbole, English is not my native language, couldn't find the nuance, hope it gets the point accross).

The attack has been made by a islamistic group though.so saying it has nothing to Do with Islam is wrong. I get your point though.

 

[LNBL]

http://betagoogle.com/refugees.html

Awesome

 

[Auctopus]

http://betagoogle.com/refugees.html

Awesome

That's incredibly smug for a company that doesn't pay its taxes.

But I get the point.

 

[E-phonk]

What has the Muslim community's response been to the attacks?

For what it's worth, in Molenbeek where the Belgian terrorists lived there was a big pro-peace and solidarity rally (3000 people) by the local community, including the brother of one of terrorists.

http://www.demorgen.be/fotografie/m...lidariteitsbijeenkomst-in-molenbeek-f17db2dd/

http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/o...-been-voor-solidariteitsbijeenkomst-b9cbc9c3/

 

[Stereogatari]

A few years ago maybe, but Turkey's so called secularity has been slowly going to shit under Erdogan, specially once you step foot out of Istanbul.

Not at all, the Istanbul VS rest of Turkey thing is a common misconception. There are large parts of Turkey that can be called Secular leaning (the most Secular city is Izmir), particularly the Western and South-Western regions. In fact ironically some of the most religious parts of Turkey can be found in certain districts and ghettos of Istanbul (Istanbul is best thought of as a microcosm of the country as a whole, it's as big and diverse as a country itself).

Erdogan's strongman conservative politics are not a fundamentalism Islamist radical revolution. Turkey still remains fundamentally Secular. He's more "Muslim version of US Republicans" than "Muslim Brotherhood Sharia bringer". The parts of Turkey where he has strong support are more like Muslim versions of the Red States of the USA. The Red States are religious but not SUPER CHRISTIAN CRAZY FORCING EVERYONE TO FOLLOW OLD N NEW TESTAMENT LAW crazy. It's the same with pro-AKP parts of Turkey. Remember it's not just religious people that support him and AKP, he's got a decent chunk of nationalist and business owner votes as well.

I'm not an AKP supporter, but I think people speaking about Turkey's "eroding" Secularity can get exaggerated with the "TURKEY IS DOOMED" rhetoric. The politics are a mess, but it's not about Islam. It's about the democratic deficit. AKP use Nationalist and Islamic rhetoric to get people to vote for them, but their actual political decisions are all based around Capitalism. The comparisons to the Republicans just don't stop .

To relate this all back to the thread I'll prove my point. It's never Turks who commit these Islamist terror attacks on Europe.

 

[RoadHazard]

Please realize there is no such thing as 'THE muslim community'. There are many. The actions of one community have nothing to do with the actions of another. There've been many denouncements made by many communities. These attacks have nothing to do with Islam though, so I think it's best to change your frame of thinking and not group Muslims together as one conscious entity (a bit of a hyperbole, English is not my native language, couldn't find the nuance, hope it gets the point accross).

Utter bullshit. It has plenty to do with Islam. Maybe not with what you or most Muslims consider to be "real Islam" (the moderate, censored, pick-and-choose kind), but absolutely with what these people think that is. Islam (one interpretation of it) is the very foundation of this evil organization.

 

[Magni]

I don't think this has been posted in the thread.

It's CCTV from a Pizzeria attacked on Friday night, no-one is thought to have died.

In the video you can see one of the attackers go to shoot a woman but his gun jams or he's out of ammo and he goes away.

She is probably the luckiest person alive.

Edit: Daily Mail links don't work but you can read more about it (with links) on the Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-by-gunman-in-paris-attacks?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

That is insane. If only everyone else has been so lucky, we could have had a repeat of the TGV failed attack. Alas

 

[Stereogatari]

I don't think this has been posted in the thread.

It's CCTV from a Pizzeria attacked on Friday night, no-one is thought to have died.

In the video you can see one of the attackers go to shoot a woman but his gun jams or he's out of ammo and he goes away.

She is probably the luckiest person alive.

Edit: Daily Mail links don't work but you can read more about it (with links) on the Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-by-gunman-in-paris-attacks?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews

You never know, maybe the moron had a conscious in that one moment where he looked into one of his victims eyes.

I wonder what I would do in a moment like this. Bullshit about being a believing Muslim? I guess there's no time anyway with them being so trigger happy.

 

[Kabouter]

You never know, maybe the moron had a conscious in that one moment where he looked into one of his victims eyes.

I wonder what I would do in a moment like this. Bullshit about being a believing Muslim? I guess there's no time anyway with them being so trigger happy.

No, the woman said she heard a click, so he did try to murder her too.

 

[Stereogatari]

No, the woman said she heard a click, so he did try to murder her too.

Fuck that. Lucky the guy didn't blow himself up then, that's what a few of them did isn't it.

 

[theusedversion]

Protests and the likes have been forbidden until tomorrow I think. I've only seen condemnations of the attack so far, and unlike the Charlie Hebdo one I can't imagine any spokesperson for the muslim community "sympathizing" with the attackers. Whether that'll reach everyone or not I don't know but they are making efforts. The Grand Mosque of Paris has called for a protest tomorrow and for all french muslims to pray for the victims.
I also just read this yesterday, which I think brings up many good points.

For what it's worth, in Molenbeek where the Belgian terrorists lived there was a big pro-peace and solidarity rally (3000 people) by the local community, including the brother of one of terrorists.

http://www.demorgen.be/fotografie/m...lidariteitsbijeenkomst-in-molenbeek-f17db2dd/

http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/o...-been-voor-solidariteitsbijeenkomst-b9cbc9c3/

Thanks you two for not being a dick. I appreciate the replies. Will check out the links now.

 

[azyless]

..

I'm sorry, doesn't Erdogan himself take pride in Turkey's "return to traditional values of Islam" ? Turkey's islamisation is increasing, I don't know how anyone can deny that. And wow at describing Erdogan as just having "strongman conservative politics", the guy is one step short of a dictator.
But this is not the place for that discussion and I doubt I'll change your mind.

 

[Queen of Hunting]

Possible 3rd body under rubble from raid yesterday

The entire third floor of the building at 8, rue du Corbillon in St-Denis collapsed during the seven-hour police operation on Wednesday, Georges Salinas, deputy commander of the BRI (police special intervention force) has told Europe 1.

He said that was why it was proving so difficult to identify the bodies “and could mean we may have a third terrorist under the rubble”.

From guardian

 

[Stereogatari]

I'm sorry, doesn't Erdogan himself take pride in Turkey's "return to traditional values of Islam" ? Turkey's islamisation is increasing, I don't know how anyone can deny that. And wow at describing Erdogan as just having "strongman conservative politics", the guy is one step short of a dictator.
But this is not the place for that discussion and I doubt I'll change your mind.

A return to Islam and Islamisation in Turkey isn't the same as a return to Islam and Islamisation in the Arab World or in places like Pakistan. I'm not saying it's good, I don't like it (I'm an Atheist) but it's not as threatening as it sounds on the face of it. Turkish Islamic politics is at its core a much different beast, and is watered down much like Christian political parties in Europe. Alcohol is still freely drunk in Turkey, sexy Western clothing is still worn by females (even by some AKP supporting females), you aren't forced to pray etc. etc. I know this because I go to Turkey every year. But if I didn't and I only judged Turkey based on political stories, I'd think Turkey was Saudi Arabia already lol.

 

[azyless]

A return to Islam and Islamisation in Turkey isn't the same as a return to Islam and Islamisation in the Arab World or in places like Pakistan. I'm not saying it's good, I don't like it (I'm an Atheist) but it's not as threatening as it sounds on the face of it. Turkish Islamic politics is at its core a much different beast, and is watered down much like Christian political parties in Europe. Alcohol is still freely drunk in Turkey, sexy Western clothing is still worn by females (even by some AKP supporting females), you aren't forced to pray etc. etc. I know this because I go to Turkey every year. But if I didn't and I only judged Turkey based on political stories, I'd think Turkey was Saudi Arabia already lol.

Maybe you should read more political stories (and you know, not in Turkey because propaganda and censorship are apparently signs of a healthy democracy) and rely less on your personal experience there as a tourist once a year. That's all I'll say.

 

[nilbog21]

Hey GAF, I am a bit out of the loop as far as everything that has been going on. I haven't been following it like I should be but I wanted to ask a question. What has the Muslim community's response been to the attacks? Has there been any large anti-ISIS protests or anything? I haven't seen much pop up on social media except for that negative soccer video and a positive story about 30 Muslims joining the masses to mourn.

I am a liberal and currently support the effort to bring refugees to the US if that makes any difference. Just mostly curious what the response has been because I haven't seen anything come up in my social circles. But then again, I am seeing a lot of anti-Muslim talk from my social network feeds so.....

1. wtf
2. what do syrian refugee's have to do w/ this attack ?

 

[DrM]

No, the woman said she heard a click, so he did try to murder her too.

Damn, she really got lucky

Whole video is hard to watch, how bullets fly around the cafe and with people jumping into cover

 

[ekim]

Regarding the cancelled soccer match in Hannover/Germany on Tuesday.

http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niede...tentaeter-vier-Sprengsaetze,hannover9996.html

According to the NDR (a pretty large outlet in Germany), they planned to have 4 bombs planted within the stadium in Hannover on Tuesday via a vehicle with access authorization (an ambulance for example) while 1 person would film all of it. Additionally there was an attack on of the cities rail station planned due midnight.

 

[ponpo]

Regarding the cancelled soccer match in Hannover/Germany on Tuesday.

http://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/niede...tentaeter-vier-Sprengsaetze,hannover9996.html

According to the NDR (a pretty large outlet in Germany), they planned to have 4 bombs planted within the stadium in Hannover on Tuesday via a vehicle with access authorization (an ambulance for example) while 1 person would film all of it. Additionally there was an attack on of the cities rail station planned due midnight.

Yeesh. Sucks knowing that you can't know about and thus stop / prevent every single attack, so there's a shitty feeling of "I wonder when / where is next?"

 

[Stereogatari]

Maybe you should read more political stories (and you know, not in Turkey because propaganda and censorship are apparently signs of a healthy democracy) and rely less on your personal experience there as a tourist once a year. That's all I'll say.

What are you trying to say? That AKP and Erdogan want to secretly bring Sharia Law to Turkey and turn Turkey into a theocracy? That's "The Jews did it" levels of tinfoil conspiracy madness.

You've twisted what we're talking about. I didn't say Turkey is a healthy democracy. I simply wanted to point out that Turkey is not a theocracy and Sharia is illegal. I agree with you that the censorship and totalitarianism of Erdogan is a problem, I mentioned that in my previous post. But I don't believe that Turkey is heading towards full blown Islamist theocracy. That's fucking moronic and not even the majority of AKP voters would want that.

I mean how much more explicit do I need to be? I'm anti-AKP, I'm Atheist, I hate Islam, I love Ataturk etc. But for me to say "AKP haven't tried to make Sharia Law part of legislation" is not wrong.

 

[Kabouter]

What are you trying to say? That AKP and Erdogan want to secretly bring Sharia Law to Turkey and turn Turkey into a theocracy? That's "The Jews did it" levels of tinfoil conspiracy madness.

You've twisted what we're talking about. I didn't say Turkey is a healthy democracy. I simply wanted to point out that Turkey is not a theocracy and Sharia is illegal. I agree with you that the censorship and totalitarianism of Erdogan is a problem, I mentioned that in my previous post. But I don't believe that Turkey is heading towards full blown Islamist theocracy. That's fucking moronic and not even the majority of AKP voters would want that.

I mean how much more explicit do I need to be? I'm anti-AKP, I'm Atheist, I hate Islam, I love Ataturk etc. But for me to say "AKP haven't tried to make Sharia Law part of legislation" is not wrong.

No, but if he thought he'd get away with it, Erdogan would probably crown himself Sultan. He's already got the palace for it

 

[Queen of Hunting]

From guardian

The French prosecutor’s office confirms that Abdelhamid Abaaoud is the man killed in the raid on St-Denis yesterday.

His body has been formally identified at the Rue de Corbillon in the Paris suburb, using skin samples, the prosecutor said.

 

[Macho Madness]

BREAKING: French prosecutors: suspected mastermind of Paris attacks killed in police raid.

Somehow the Washington Post knew this yesterday.

 

[RoadHazard]

From guardian

Good. Hope he suffered and didn't die right away (although he probably did).

 

[Alx]

Somehow the Washington Post knew this yesterday.

Not too surprising, they said they had inside sources that wanted to stay anonymous. They probably got the first raw results from the analysis, while it takes a few hours to triple-check and prepare official declarations.
Good job from the intelligence service and intervention teams anyway. It didn't take long to find him.

 

[KingSnake]

From guardian

That's good, because it was already confirmed that he wasn't on the list of those arrested. So he's done organizing attacks.

 

[chadskin]

From guardian

Good to hear he can't do any more harm.

 

[Stereogatari]

No, but if he thought he'd get away with it, Erdogan would probably crown himself Sultan. He's already got the palace for it

With golden toilets, the bastard!

 

[chadskin]

Next confirmation:

AP: BREAKING: Police: Cousin of Paris attacks main suspect died in raid; believed to have blown herself up.

https://twitter.com/ap/status/667325937000804352

 

[Marvel]

That cctv footage is insane.

 

[azyless]

I mean how much more explicit do I need to be? I'm anti-AKP, I'm Atheist, I hate Islam, I love Ataturk etc. But for me to say "AKP haven't tried to make Sharia Law part of legislation" is not wrong.

There are nuances betwenn Sharia Law and secularity. Denying that he's made steps towards it and that the tendency isn't going to change as long as he's there is not wrong either (and considering his tactics he'll probably be there for a long time).
I'm not sure why you're finding any of this ridiculous considering the guy has led openly islamic politics in the past. But sure, people in the street celebrating after an election, chanting "This is the victory of Islam" points me to a very secular country.

 

[Kuldar]

Somehow the Washington Post knew this yesterday.

Washington Post faster than DNA test.

 

[Cake Boss]

I'm all for getting rid of ISIS. But the problem won't stop there. Where they got the ideas from in the first place is the scripture. The problem with the scripture is that it's unalterable. It's the final word of god. It cannot be challenged or changed. It is totalitarian.

So where does in the scripture does it say to kill other people? And if it did then how come the other 1+billion people not blowing themselves up as well, but these 25k-50k that are doing it.

 

[Jezbollah]

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/667329227461644288

AFP: French MPs vote to allow government to block websites, social media under state of emergency

 

[everyday math]

Good. Bye bye asshole!

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/667329227461644288

AFP: French MPs vote to allow government to block websites, social media under state of emergency

....ummmmm that's a little drastic. Careful France.

 

[archnemesis]

Turkey has been doing that and it's a terrible idea. The state should never interfere with freedom of the press.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Just read that Abaaoud was killed. Amazing work by French police. I only wish every country was acting with as much intensity as France is right now. It's time to cut through red tape and handle business. France understands that. Sadly it seems nobody else will unless they are attacked too

 

[lazer_bean]

Careful France.

I'm not sure if it was posted already but Laurent Fabius (Foreign Affairs minister in France) declared that* they have checked and found no evidence that some countries in the Gulf financially support ISIS (he didn't name them but those countries are probably Saudi Arabia/ Qatar).
France would show no complacency towards those countries should they find any proof of that.

* I'm paraphrasing

Think what you will.
video (in French)



Also, regarding this:

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/667329227461644288

AFP: French MPs vote to allow government to block websites, social media under state of emergency

They're talking about websites/social media that encourage or make apologist arguments for terrorism
source

 

[DiipuSurotu]

These are some of the badasses that delivered 5,000 bullets to Abaaoud for breakfast yesterday:

 

[SuperBanana]

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/667329227461644288

AFP: French MPs vote to allow government to block websites, social media under state of emergency

Wow, disgusting. They didn't waste anytime fucking over their citizens and stripping rights.

 

[Queen of Hunting]

coordinated attacks happened via sms. Blocks social media.

Yea that will stop them lol