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Penny Arcade Report on KOF 13: "casual sexism", "cringe-inducing racial imagery"

ShinMaruku

Member
I find it comical when KOF fans call DOA too pervy. Mai King lsoing her clothes Yuri attacking you with her ass, KOF is king at this stuff. That said this 'review' was really not looking into if the game is good or not and seems to be looking for something to attack to seem 'progressive' Since this is a Japanese game it will have some odd stuff in it that will seem offensive to somebody with a broader view than the creators would even think of.
 

Ferrio

Banned
I find it comical when KOF fans call DOA too pervy. Mai King lsoing her clothes Yuri attacking you with her ass, KOF is king at this stuff. That said this 'review' was really not looking into if the game is good or not and seems to be looking for something to attack to seem 'progressive' Since this is a Japanese game it will have some odd stuff in it that will seem offensive to somebody with a broader view than the creators would even think of.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or you're talking out your ass.

King of what exactly? You mention 3 things... one being wrong.


That post combined with the avatar rings of cognitive dissonance.
 
D

Deleted member 74300

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or you're talking out your ass.

King of what exactly? You mention 3 things... one being wrong.

image.php


Enough said.
 
I find it comical when KOF fans call DOA too pervy. Mai King lsoing her clothes Yuri attacking you with her ass, KOF is king at this stuff.

KOF only having recently brought back torn clothes after 16 years (Mai never lost her clothes btw), one goofball attack from Yuri, and having two games where Mai, the "iconic sexist fighting game character" as absent from the main roster two games straight (KOF XI and XII) somehow bests the series known for customizable jiggly physics and

Doaxbvbox.jpg
250px-Dead_or_Alive_Xtreme_2_Xbox_Game_Cover.jpg



This is your argument?

If you were being sarcastic, sorry for not picking up on it
 

Silky

Banned
I find it comical when KOF fans call DOA too pervy. Mai King lsoing her clothes Yuri attacking you with her ass, KOF is king at this stuff. .

Might want to fix that bold. Yes there's plenty of innuendo in KOF, sure (the grappler Shermie has a special called 'Busty Suplex', in which she thrusts her chest toward's the women and the costumes they wear, the positions they're in after they lose, the physics on their chest, and you see that DOA is in a whole different league.

Even their all-women fighting game, Gals Fighters, were pretty damn tame despite the idea of all the women from KOF competing in a tourney ran buy a drag queen Iori Yagami.

180px-Missx.png


It's even funnier considering that Iori's total clueless nature towards women makes him easily pointed out among the cast of Gals Fighters.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
You guys don't find it somewhat hypocritical for any fighting game player to call out DOA for being perverted when all those games have that stuff? You are not going to tell me Mai bouncing with no shame or Angel or any of the other nice looking ladies are not fan service, or Ivy's cup size increasing every game is a nod to fan service as well.

Just saying you can look at any of these games and call something 'problematic.' KOF is just a easier target with it's dance.
 

Ferrio

Banned
You guys don't find it somewhat hypocritical for any fighting game player to call out DOA for being perverted when all those games have that stuff? You are not going to tell me Mai bouncing with no shame or Angel or any of the other nice looking ladies are not fan service, or Ivy's cup size increasing every game is a nod to fan service as well.

Just saying you can look at any of these games and call something 'problematic.' KOF is just a easier target with it's dance.

Wait.. Ivy? Why we bringing Ivy into it now? You confusing your games son?
 

Seik

Banned
KOF being KOF like it always was, it's not like it 'turned' like this.

It's basically the same thing as back then, c'mon PA, you're going down the barrel with them news lately. :/
 

Silky

Banned
You guys don't find it somewhat hypocritical for any fighting game player to call out DOA for being perverted when all those games have that stuff? You are not going to tell me Maiunc boing with no shame or Angel or any of the other nice looking ladies are not fan service, or Ivy's cup size increasing every game is a nod to fan service as well.

Just saying you can look at any of these games and call something 'problematic.' KOF is just a easier target with it's dance.

You argued that KOF was worse than DOA.
 
No, I'm saying all fighting games have perverted stuff and calling out one game for it is hypocritical. And KOF has much more than Just Mai being fan service.

There's having "perverted" (subjective) stuff, and then there's going as far as DOA has gone. Whole games dedicated to playing girls in bikini's? The closest SNK ever got to that might've been was SNK Gals Fighters on NG Pocket, and that was still a fighter.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
All of the tropes done with Mai is more perverted than DOA. I remember one site (I think it's down now) That had some screen of Mai's animation being a tad bit too detailed for a game at the time. (I wish I could find it again but alas that site has been down for years.)
 

Ferrio

Banned
All of the tropes done with Mai is more perverted than DOA. I remember one site (I think it's down now) That had some screen of Mai's animation being a tad bit too detailed for a game at the time. (I wish I could find it again but alas that site has been down for years.)

Bzzz wrong. She never showed nudity or anything of sort. I know what you're talking about, it was little boys wanting to see more than what was really there.


There has been one case of a nudity in an SNK, name the character, game, and how it's triggered and I'll give you a cookie for actually knowing what you're talking about.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
KOF being KOF like it always was, it's not like it 'turned' like this.

It's basically the same thing as back then, c'mon PA, you're going down the barrel with them news lately. :/

All of the gaming press seems to be going down the barrel. I guess not enough news to report and not enough people confident that other stories can be told. End of Gen doldrums I guess.

And if you guys are going to link the beach volleyball games rather than the fighting game get the more racy ones. Show some effort.

Thank god you guys never seen the bast fiends :p
 

Silky

Banned
All of the tropes done with Mai is more perverted than DOA.

Are you reffering to this?

mai2k2-butt2.gif


That's the worst Mai's done outside of her idle animation. Her butt is the most that she shows. I've never seen Mai wear clamshell bikinis or twerk on a stripper pole, man. Mai doesn't see herself as a "sexy" person, nor does she flaunt her beauty to other men besides Andy (unless when she's fighting.)
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I would cite B Janet too but she's not KOF.

So nice to see a spirited defense on KOF but man it's still perverted in some of it's characters. (Which I was getting at. Probably could have worded it better)
 
Never really found KoF pervy/Gross at all, sure I thought the shirt ripping was silly and uneeded, also, DOA as much as I love it, is the worst offender of this.

This topic reminded me of Soul Calibur 4/5 armor breaking...
 

Ferrio

Banned
Are you reffering to this?


That's the worst Mai's done outside of her idle animation. Her butt is the most that she shows. I've never seen Mai wear clamshell bikinis or twerk on a stripper pole, man. Mai doesn't see herself as a "sexy" person, nor does she flaunt her beauty to other men besides Andy (unless when she's fighting.)

Pretty sure that's an edit isn't it?
 

ShinMaruku

Member
Gross? No KOF is all class (Aside from Mai god bless her for being as she is)
And no it's not and edit that was a older animation from when she wins. It's just ended mid animation. She does show that much skin. She also had a booty in a genre where girls had no plump asses I was pleased.
 

mollipen

Member
I don't at all want to suggest that Andrew Groen should be denied his opinion - I think he's as entitled to it as I am to mine. I can also see where, on some level, there could be a legitimate argument to be made against Mai as a positive female character.

BUT! I think that's an easy, and potentially lazy, argument to make when you're unfamiliar with the character or SNK's history with female characters.

I posted this to Twitter, so instead of just re-writing the exact same here, I'll quote myself:

Okay, rant time. I read a certain site's review of the PC version of The King of Fighters XIII, and a point that was made bothered me.

I'll happily point out when female characters in gaming are shameful or sexist, but I CANNOT support that claim against SNK's Mai Shiranui. Female characters aren't instantly sexist when they're sexy—that's not how it works. Gaming is allowed to have characters that are sexy.

First important question: is the character MORE than just that? Mai is. She's had YEARS of character development & depth beyond her breasts. It's easy to say that Mai is nothing but a sexist char—if you are ignorant of her history in Fatal Fury/KOF/other games. It's also wrong. She's also one of a huge variety of SNK women, who easily has one of the biggest rosters of quality, worthwhile female characters in gaming. Even before we were having conversations of female representation in gaming, SNK was giving us strong, respectable examples of that.

If Mai were from a series/company known for constant cheesecake, I'd see the argument. But CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT! That must be remembered. I fully support Mai being a buxom under-dressed ninja, because that isn't all that defines her—and there's legit sexist chars to argue over.

Finally: I think we do disservice to the legit discussions that should be happening about female game chars when we attack someone like Mai.

As I said there, I think it's crazy to claim SNK as sexist when you take a look at their history of characters. They have years and years of characters, female and male, that have gone against the grain or provided hints of character types that aren't always pushed in gaming. And, I mean, the amount of non-sexualized female characters from SNK compared to sexualized ones is craaazy. Another of my favorite SNK femmes is Charlotte - a woman who is covered head to toe in heavy armor.

I don't know Groen's history in gaming, but I can't help but feel he's got minimal legitimate experience with SNK, their games, and characters. And when you come at a topic with little knowledge or history on said topic, it can damage the serious conversations that need to happen on that topic.

With DOA coming up, there is a game that I think legitimate arguments can be made against. Every female in that game is sexualized with very similar, voluptuous body types, no matter their role or character trope. There's no balance to the sexuality, no real contrast to that idea. On the opposite end, KOF has a female character that's sexy and showing skin and over the top, but then a roster of very different female characters who provide contrast against her. There's balance. Also - IMHO - DOA's cast are a bunch of vapid airheads who have to struggle to display any kind of real personality, where as Mai has real personality and charm.

(As to the clothes ripping off of Yuri and King, it's a nod back to the AOF days, but one that I'll agreed isn't necessarily appropriate anymore.)
 

Esura

Banned
Might want to fix that bold. Yes there's plenty of innuendo in KOF, sure (the grappler Shermie has a special called 'Busty Suplex', in which she thrusts her chest toward's the women and the costumes they wear, the positions they're in after they lose, the physics on their chest, and you see that DOA is in a whole different league.

Even their all-women fighting game, Gals Fighters, were pretty damn tame despite the idea of all the women from KOF competing in a tourney ran buy a drag queen Iori Yagami.


180px-Missx.png


It's even funnier considering that Iori's total clueless nature towards women makes him easily pointed out among the cast of Gals Fighters.

lolwut? What system is this on!? :O
 
Some of the DoA 4 endings were.....yeah. Ive yet to play DoA 5 story but I hope its not a teenage boys wet dream again.

Also thought the stage filled with stereotypes thing is a cool/funny thing, I doubt people were offended by it.
 
All of the gaming press seems to be going down the barrel. I guess not enough news to report and not enough people confident that other stories can be told. End of Gen doldrums I guess.

And if you guys are going to link the beach volleyball games rather than the fighting game get the more racy ones. Show some effort.

Thank god you guys never seen the bast fiends :p

Bast fiends?
 

sleepykyo

Member
DOA: Jiggle Simulator
KOF: SEXIST GROSS FILTH THAT YOU SHOULD FEEL DISGUSTED BY.

Edit: Just saw your edit. My comment still stands, though. I wonder: is it all of the male reviews that are grossly exaggerated and sensationalized on PAR? I recall Ben Kuchera reviewing Charlie Murder and he felt sickened or something that the female player character Skelekitten didn't destroy a couch with the rest of her friends, or the fact that she only plays a tambourine in the band (when she's actually the manager.) I just don't see that sensation and ~FLAIR~ when reading other reviews written by the opposite sex.

Different writers makes the original comment somewhat irrelevant. That aside he did call out the females in Injustice for what it is worth.
 

Esura

Banned
Neogeo pocket. I had one of them. Never had this game though...

He was the boss, went by the name "Miss X". The game pretty much was setup as a comical fighter much like pocket fighter. Everyone's moves had ridiculous animations.

Holy crap that sounds awesome. I would love to play this but I wager my chances of stumbling upon a cheap Neo Geo Pocket these days is about as high as hitting the Powerball.

Well, you just know you got serious issues when even dickwolves call you out on sexism.

Issues that don't exist.
 
This is the future of gaming journalism: "Amazing game, lots of attention to detail, long length, great story, but misogynistic, do not buy."

You're giving too much credit to an industry that will forget about misogyny and equal representation in games the second a hotter buzzword comes to mind. That's not to say the discussion isn't meaningful and worth having, but the second it stops getting clicks they'll move on to "Does this game promote a healthy lifestyle?" or "Are there enough marsupials in games?"...
 
The most hilarious thing about this POS article is that they complain that some of the characters are misogynistic. As if every character, even the villains, have to be politically correct.
 

GhaleonQ

Member

I don't disagree.

Still, S.N.K. is the lamest of targets. If this was 1 of their sellout games, I'd read. The King Of Fighters 13 is jovial, Kuchera. JOVIAL.

brazilians love the game, so I doubt that they are offended

South Americans play fighting games like this, North Americans play fighting games like that. *mic drop*

Don't tell the guy about Blue Mary in Real Bout.... he might explode.

This is what we meant by "characterization," let's be honest.

lolwut? What system is this on!? :O

I would say it's in the conversation in "best handheld fighting game," too. At the very least, it's a magnificent game that's so very, very S.N.K.
 

Madness

Member
I truly wonder what kind of homogenized games we'll be playing in the future... Everyone looks and talks the same and every country should be represented equally, with no stereotypes. The characters and roles given will be the same for everyone so that no one can say one gender had better representation.

It's always these niche American 'blog' sites, who try and use reviews of video games to talk about social justice issues, as if that's what people are reading the review for.

I don't watch Inglorious Basterds and decry the laughable Nazi stereotypes or how France is shown etc. in the review.
 

Tygamr

Member
So why is this article coming out now, when KoF XIII has been out for well over a year? Is it in the news lately? I don't follow KoF XIII stuff, so I wouldn't know.

Also, since when have French women been stereotyped as being over weight? It's usually the opposite.

Edit: nvm, recently released on Steam. Still kind of late though.
 
I don't at all want to suggest that Andrew Groen should be denied his opinion - I think he's as entitled to it as I am to mine. I can also see where, on some level, there could be a legitimate argument to be made against Mai as a positive female character.

BUT! I think that's an easy, and potentially lazy, argument to make when you're unfamiliar with the character or SNK's history with female characters.

I posted this to Twitter, so instead of just re-writing the exact same here, I'll quote myself:



As I said there, I think it's crazy to claim SNK as sexist when you take a look at their history of characters. They have years and years of characters, female and male, that have gone against the grain or provided hints of character types that aren't always pushed in gaming. And, I mean, the amount of non-sexualized female characters from SNK compared to sexualized ones is craaazy. Another of my favorite SNK femmes is Charlotte - a woman who is covered head to toe in heavy armor.

I don't know Groen's history in gaming, but I can't help but feel he's got minimal legitimate experience with SNK, their games, and characters. And when you come at a topic with little knowledge or history on said topic, it can damage the serious conversations that need to happen on that topic.

With DOA coming up, there is a game that I think legitimate arguments can be made against. Every female in that game is sexualized with very similar, voluptuous body types, no matter their role or character trope. There's no balance to the sexuality, no real contrast to that idea. On the opposite end, KOF has a female character that's sexy and showing skin and over the top, but then a roster of very different female characters who provide contrast against her. There's balance. Also - IMHO - DOA's cast are a bunch of vapid airheads who have to struggle to display any kind of real personality, where as Mai has real personality and charm.

(As to the clothes ripping off of Yuri and King, it's a nod back to the AOF days, but one that I'll agreed isn't necessarily appropriate anymore.)

Beautifully said. Bravo!

Even their all-women fighting game, Gals Fighters, were pretty damn tame despite the idea of all the women from KOF competing in a tourney ran buy a drag queen Iori Yagami.

180px-Missx.png


It's even funnier considering that Iori's total clueless nature towards women makes him easily pointed out among the cast of Gals Fighters.

Penny Arcade Report on Gals Fighters: "mocking transexuals"

In any case, in all fairness to ShinMaruku, KoF MI 2 was a game where they really tried to sink to DoA's level. Since he (she?) mentioned B Jenet, I'll use her as an example.

Original Garou art by Tonko



Special promo art by Kita Senri (you may recognizer her work on Fire Emblem)



KoF XI art by Hiroaki


I've always liked B Jennet for being "sexy with an air of class about her". Yeah she's very va va voom, but she's got a personality to really match that look.


Aaand we get to her MI 2 appearance where the let fan artist Falcoon go wild.


All he did was inflate her breasts a bit and made some cuts to her dress, but that "class"
is gone and she now looks like a wild teen girl on Spring Break. Although I do like the alternate "colors" themselves.

Also her "alternate" since we've brought up fighting characters in bikinis


Granted, it's not as bad as what Mary (another character I like for being sexy with class) got

 

Ikael

Member
Fighting games have relied on stereotypes since the dawn of time. I don't know what PA is trying to grasp here, other than the whole "stereotypes are universally racist / bad for you".
 
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