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[Riposte]

Well, yes, that's one way to cover the fact you (and your peers) are incapable of reviewing a deep fighting game. It doesn't require expertise to repeat some popular talking points on any single old game (and it also takes less effort than actually tackling a whole genre at once or looking at sexism in games in a more meaningful extent). I will second that it is poorly researched and altogether poorly thought out when considering whatever goals it may have.

I reject the idea that a review absent of expertise and detail should be acceptable because it is a "different style to review a game".

The character Mai Shiranui has long been a blatant example of fighting game sexism gone too far

I find the use of "too far" pretty humorous. Putting aside what that would actually mean, I imagine a fanservice-y character amongst many of various types is not particularly "far" as far sexism in games go.

 

[Clear]

Meanwhile Miley Cyrus writhes naked on a wrecking ball and licks a sledgehammer for extra special obviousness...

19million views first day, and I'm pretty sure its not down to the quality of the music. Sex sells in popular culture, so pointing out sexism in a videogame is about as redundant an observation as its possible to make.

 

[Oblivion]

Is this PA's way of somehow making up for that dickwolves thing?

 

[OnimaruXLR]

the backlash here is embarassing. dude makes good points and i'm glad we can have these discussions in video games now. we need them badly.

Part of my frustration is I can't see how it's going to helping anything. Maybe I'm underestimating how popular KOF is, but harping on it's bad habits when it's a niche within a niche just seems like confining it to an even tinier niche. The best selling fighting game in the US (and probably the entire world, because of proportionate audience size?) is the Mortal Kombat series. When I google"Mortal Kombat sexism" I get an obscure non-commercial blog post and an IGN forum post (defending MK as not sexist) near the top of my results. Then I google Street Fighter sexism, and everything that comes up is about the community, not the content of the games. If you're serious about changing bad trends within a genre, why is there nothing going after these two series in this fashion, at this level of visibility?

KOF fans are just glad that the series is not dead and that it persists with a 2D artstyle when no one else is doing the same. If you expect them to get outraged and demand progressive change from a series that feels like it's on life support, you're barking up the wrong tree. To me, this is demonstrative in a problem in games journalism that isn't really related to all this social outrage that seems to be going on now: it's the tendency to take aim at whatever floats into view on the river of "current" gaming topics. "Relevant" discussion, AKA "WELL PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW SO CLEARLY IT'S IMPORTANT AND I SHOULD CHIME IN, RIGHT?" The same goes for Dragon's Crown. That game probably got more coverage because of the art style controversy than it wold have gotten at all otherwise, where if people really felt that it was that offensive, they would have probably been better off ignoring it, considering it was a 2D beat em up, a genre that is not exactly lighting up the charts. Maybe the most obviously comical and relevant example is how someone who made a game about a naked blue woman found Quiet's sniping bikini is ridiculous. There's no sense of context or the bigger picture, or even an outcry from people who actually give a shit about what they're talking about it's just taking lazy potshots in the sense of "HEY, THAT THING IN MY PERIPHERAL VISION IS STUPID AND OFFENSIVE! I'M GONNA COMPLAIN ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET!"

Chalk it up to the internet having a short memory and being nearsighted, I guess.

 

[PuppetMaster]

Sounds like I need to buy this game

 

[Risible]

When it started out PAR wasn't bad. It's a fucking complete joke now. Every story is either clickbait or a repost from another site. Hell, half the time it's an article about the latest TV show. Really went down the shitter fast.

 

[mnz]

Context is everything. Why should a female character exist to be 'sexy'? What is the purpose of that design choice.

I'm not asking you that question directly but it's worth thinking about. What does that add? If it's simply that she's good to look at - in a 'sexy' way - then the design decision was to objectify her in that manner. She exists in that appearance/skin to be seen as an object. No different to a sports car in a racing game - it's a designed skin that exists in that manner for a reason. These aren't actresses on a stage that can input their own opinion/will/style/attitude/clothing/etc. They are virtual creations where every inch of them is deliberate, with a reason and not self aware.

I'm generalising here because forums are hardly the best place for the discussion. It doesn't mean you should dislike something because it may have have an element of objectification. It isn't black and white to me. '70s exploitation had some pretty bad attitudes to women but I like many of the films, for example. But conversations came from that and continue onwards within cinema (Transformers 3 had much worse attitudes to women then those old films; that did have a serious issue).

Yeah, that's what I mean, except for the last part. All these characters are completely made up, they are all objects for your imagination, why is "sexy" off the table? You can go a long way with it. Eve seduced Adam in the Bible, the Simpsons made Marge sexy when they showed a happy sexual life, ads do it to sell you shampoo. It adds traits to the cast that we associate with the image and makes it possible for other characters to react to it. If that has any artistic value, who knows? That's subjective anyway. To me, being sexist means to unfairly associate how someone is for what a person is and that's what we do if we want to forbid certain portrayals.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

For reference, this is a native Brazillian in King of Fighters:

Wow. I had no idea Chael Sonnen got a job as an artist for SNK...

 

[dragonlife]

Man, my already wounded ego as an SNK fan seeing this kind of thing as kicking a man when he's down, and maybe it's my burgeoning belief that these honky press dudes have some kind of filter that renders Japanese sexism somehow more offensive than the kind that is in American games, but fuck Penny Arcade and doublefuck Kuchera after this shit. You could in no uncertain terms say the exact same shit about Street Fighter 4. Maybe the background characters are depicted a bit more cartoonishly in KOF13 (in as much as they move around and have personality), but that once again comes down on the "art interpretation" issue that Dragon's Crown had.

Certain characters disrespect women? Since when has a character acting like an asshole been anything other than characterization of an asshole character? Do you think that Rockstar endorses everybody going out and becoming a violent methhead because Trevor exists? Is this not the exact same kind of boneheaded logic that people who say "WELL GAMES HAVE GUNS AND KILLING PEOPLE SO PLAYING THEM WILL MAKE YOU KILL PEOPLE WITH A GUN"?

But no, I guess the American press wold rather have fighting games where you skullfuck an opponent's head with your fist where all the women look like they came out of the most nightmarish plasticky porno ever filmed. Not to mention the way it looks when you're getting on the case of a niche fighting game when your damned employers have their own "sensitivity" shitstorm. Fuck 'em. They're now on my banned media list with Kotaku. YES I MAD. There seems to be this contingent of weirdos who won't be happy until every character in videogames is "sensibly dressed", generically multi-ethnic, and bland in characterization like they're from a goddamn GAP ad. I bet these are the same fuckers who LOVE Nathan "brunette white dude in t-shirt and jenes who commits genocide all over foreigners and he is just SO CHARMING" Drake. Rarararasghbleghg

I like this post a lot

Anyway, as far as I've seen, there is only one human in the Brazil stage, and he looks nothing like the little creatures.

 

[RM8]

I love how Mai's breasts are enough to make people ignore the fact that KOF is drowning in sexually appealing male characters, some of them wearing barely anything.

 

[Htown]

For reference, these are the designs of KOF13's female characters in alphabetical order:

 

[Jenga]

iori offends me, us guys do not have glorious bronze chiseled chests and slick sexy red hair, this is just sexist to be treated to objectification

he wears leather pants ffs

leather pants!

 

[RM8]

For reference, these are the designs of KOF13's female characters in alphabetical order:

Honestly, it might be the classiest fighter out there in female designs with the obvious exception of Mai.

 

[LiK]

Every fighting game is like that. Why pick on KOF?

 

[Aureon]

And that's why they love it!

 

[poopninjamvc3mk]

While Penny Arcade is really going down the drain.

 

[TheSeks]

It's marked as a review but the only "review" thing is "yeah, the netcode improved from shit to trash."

And the comments section is flooded with "FGC" people coming to defend the fighting game genre's "honor" while the points in the article are slightly true, no matter the game in the genre.

Every fighting game is like that. Why pick on KOF?

Because the Steam Edition just came out a few weeks ago, so it's the latest punching bag.

 

[Conciliator]

I don't have any experience in the world of KOF, and if I did I'm sure I would disagree with any amount of stuff in this article, but I still appreciate writers who are trying to tackle this kind of thing. It's worth thinking and writing about it and it's obvious it's a very unpopular move to make, so it takes some boldness.

Also, since this thread has not fully comprehended it, it's worth saying it again that what the Penny Arcade Report writes and thinks has no affiliation with what Gabe and Tycho write and think.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Honestly, it might be the classiest fighter out there in female designs with the obvious exception of Mai."


That's Virtua Fighter. Tekken's pretty tame in this regard as well.

 

[bon]

One of the things in the article that bothers me is how the writer just focuses on Mai's appearance, while completely ignoring her history and personality. He himself is reducing her to a sex object, while a lot of Mai's fans actually like her as a character. Same with King. There's a thread on GAF right now where people are talking about what a great character King is, but this guy just wants to talk about her shirt getting ripped without any context.

 

[LiK]

Because the Steam Edition just came out a few weeks ago, so it's the latest punching bag.

agreed.

One of the things in the article that bothers me is how the writer just focuses on Mai's appearance, while completely ignoring her history and personality. He himself is reducing her to a sex object, while a lot of Mai's fans actually like her as a character. Same with King. There's a thread on GAF right now where people are talking about what a great character King is, but this guy just wants to talk about her shirt getting ripped without any context.

these types of articles always pick and choose certain aspects and blow things outta proportion. and Mai and King have been around for a long time and he finally noticed. i wonder if he noticed everyone has superpowers too?

 

[LordJim]

"Honestly, it might be the classiest fighter out there in female designs with the obvious exception of Mai."


That's Virtua Fighter. Tekken's pretty tame in this regard as well.

Customization makes people forget that.

 

[Kusagari]

Is every game going to have any article written about it having casual sexism/misogyny now?

It's getting ridiculous. It would be like if we got articles every time a film used sex to sell.

 

[RM8]

That's Virtua Fighter.

Actually, you're right. But I still think KOF is rather classy with the female designs.

 

[mattiewheels]

Every fighting game is like that. Why pick on KOF?

If you're saying more articles about fighting games like this should be written, I agree. But come prepared with research and good arguments.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Also, since this thread has not fully comprehended it, it's worth saying it again that what the Penny Arcade Report writes and thinks has no affiliation with what Gabe and Tycho write and think.

In what universe can Penny Arcade put their branding on something and say that that something is not reflective of the brand?

 

[theprodigy]

In what universe can Penny Arcade put their branding on something and say that that something is not reflective of the brand?

in the universe where it's convenient to ignore that
obviously

 

[Conciliator]

In what universe can Penny Arcade put their branding on something and say that that something is not reflective of the brand?

In the universe that they make that clear on both sites, i.e. this universe.

I'm in no way defending Penny Arcade, those dudes have certainly done their share of getting on my nerves.

 

[GekigangerV]

In what universe can Penny Arcade put their branding on something and say that that something is not reflective of the brand?

To be fair though, could one compare it to the separation of the Fox, Fox News and Fox Sports?

But I do not fault most people unable to make the distinction since I don't think anything else like this exists for video game journalism.

 

[Silky]

"Honestly, it might be the classiest fighter out there in female designs with the obvious exception of Mai."


That's Virtua Fighter. Tekken's pretty tame in this regard as well.

There's yet to be a KOF game that features women fight-able in bikinis.


But virtua fighter I'll give you as well.

 

[Parallax]

"Honestly, it might be the classiest fighter out there in female designs with the obvious exception of Mai."


That's Virtua Fighter. Tekken's pretty tame in this regard as well.

virtua fighter skin bleached one of its dark skin characters. its not that classy

 

[Choppasmith]

I have to wonder if this were KOF XII, would the samewriter criticize SNK of sexism because of the lack of female characters.

I just can't get over the really dumb logic that one character's misogynistic dialog, is somehow indicative of SNK as a whole. That's like calling Marvel fascist terrorists because they have characters like Doom and Red Skull.

 

[theprodigy]

I have to wonder if this were KOF XII, would the samewriter criticize SNK of sexism because of the lack of female characters.

I just can't get over the really dumb logic that one character's misogynistic dialog, is somehow indicative of SNK as a whole. That's like calling Marvel fascist terrorists because they have characters like Doom and Red Skull.

next article: Marvel vs Capcom 3 promotes fascism

 

[Village]

virtua fighter skin bleached one of its dark skin characters. its not that classy

That was messed up, crown goes to tekken.

tekken lets anyone be anything they want

Want to be a black Ninja , go nuts. Wanna be androgynous Swedish martial artist , sure. go nuts. Wanna be a bear a velociraptor, go apeshit.

 

[shaowebb]

PA: Pot calls kettle black

This.

Every fighting game is like that. Why pick on KOF?

Mentions KoF...doesn't bring up Cammy body thong outfit, or any of the cultural stereotypes in that game either.

 

[Snapshot King]

In the universe that they make that clear on both sites, i.e. this universe.

I'm in no way defending Penny Arcade, those dudes have certainly done their share of getting on my nerves.

The whole reason it's the Penny Arcade Report and not _______ Report is because they want to piggyback off the positive association and popularity of Penny Arcade. To suddenly start yelling about how they're totally different as soon as people turn negative is a complete crock of shit. Don't stamp your fucking name on shit and then turn around and say it has nothing to do with you and doesn't reflect you at all.

 

[Kusagari]

virtua fighter skin bleached one of its dark skin characters. its not that classy

I completely forgot about that.

Now that was messed up.

 

[MavFan619]

Grazes over the mechanics and depth to one of the best fighting games this gen, to criticize the game for everything else. Seems like a disservice to people reading this "review" who want to know more about the actual gameplay.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"tekken lets anyone be anything they want

Want to be a black Ninja , go nuts. Wanna be androgynous Swedish martial artist , sure. go nuts. Wanna be a bear a velociraptor, go apeshit."



So Tekken lets you be anything you want, so long as it's a character that already exists?

 

[call_kotaku]

Part of my frustration is I can't see how it's going to helping anything. Maybe I'm underestimating how popular KOF is, but harping on it's bad habits when it's a niche within a niche just seems like confining it to an even tinier niche. The best selling fighting game in the US (and probably the entire world, because of proportionate audience size?) is the Mortal Kombat series. When I google"Mortal Kombat sexism" I get an obscure non-commercial blog post and an IGN forum post (defending MK as not sexist) near the top of my results. Then I google Street Fighter sexism, and everything that comes up is about the community, not the content of the games. If you're serious about changing bad trends within a genre, why is there nothing going after these two series in this fashion, at this level of visibility?

KOF fans are just glad that the series is not dead and that it persists with a 2D artstyle when no one else is doing the same. If you expect them to get outraged and demand progressive change from a series that feels like it's on life support, you're barking up the wrong tree. To me, this is demonstrative in a problem in games journalism that isn't really related to all this social outrage that seems to be going on now: it's the tendency to take aim at whatever floats into view on the river of "current" gaming topics. "Relevant" discussion, AKA "WELL PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW SO CLEARLY IT'S IMPORTANT AND I SHOULD CHIME IN, RIGHT?" The same goes for Dragon's Crown. That game probably got more coverage because of the art style controversy than it wold have gotten at all otherwise, where if people really felt that it was that offensive, they would have probably been better off ignoring it, considering it was a 2D beat em up, a genre that is not exactly lighting up the charts. Maybe the most obviously comical and relevant example is how someone who made a game about a naked blue woman found Quiet's sniping bikini is ridiculous. There's no sense of context or the bigger picture, or even an outcry from people who actually give a shit about what they're talking about it's just taking lazy potshots in the sense of "HEY, THAT THING IN MY PERIPHERAL VISION IS STUPID AND OFFENSIVE! I'M GONNA COMPLAIN ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET!"

Chalk it up to the internet having a short memory and being nearsighted, I guess.

KOF is one of the most popular fighting games in the world, maybe even moreso than Street Fighter, especially in places like China and Latin/South America. Unfortunately for SNK almost none of them legally bought the game.

None of those people read the PA Report, though.

 

[Conciliator]

The whole reason it's the Penny Arcade Report and not _______ Report is because they want to piggyback off the positive association and popularity of Penny Arcade. To suddenly start yelling about how they're totally different as soon as people turn negative is a complete crock of shit. Don't stamp your fucking name on shit and then turn around and say it has nothing to do with you and doesn't reflect you at all.

Again, both sites made clear at when PAR launched that the opinions and writing of one does not reflect the other from the start. This is not an unheard of thing. It has nothing to do with 'suddenly'. And again I really have no vested interest, I don't have much of an emotional connection with Penny Arcade either way, just something that got on my nerves reading through the thread. If you're into hating PA and this helps that's cool with me.

 

[Snapshot King]

Again, both sites made clear at when PAR launched that the opinions and writing of one does not reflect the other from the start. This is not an unheard of thing. It has nothing to do with 'suddenly'. And again I really have no vested interest, I don't have much of an emotional connection with Penny Arcade either way, just something that got on my nerves reading through the thread. If you're into hating PA and this helps that's cool with me.

Then it shouldn't be called the Penny Arcade Report. It should have its own name.

 

[Conciliator]

Then it shouldn't be called the Penny Arcade Report. It should have its own name.

...alright?

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Honestly, it might be the classiest fighter out there in female designs with the obvious exception of Mai.

Also note that not a single Athena frame in KOF XIII has a panty shot.

 

[sqwarlock]

Ok, I understand that there's problems with sexism/racism/whatever-other-isms in the gaming industry, but why do these journalists feel the need to make it seem like they want every game to be a beacon of political correctness? Question the decisions, sure, but don't get pissed just because the developers of a game decided to do things the way they did.

I believe it was a Jimquisition where Jim said something like, "Is it ok to ask, 'why?' Yes, but it's just as ok for the answer to be, 'because'."

 

[Jotamide]

The article had nothing to do with the gameplay. NOTHING.

 

[Village]

"tekken lets anyone be anything they want

Want to be a black Ninja , go nuts. Wanna be androgynous Swedish martial artist , sure. go nuts. Wanna be a bear a velociraptor, go apeshit."



So Tekken lets you be anything you want, so long as it's a character that already exists?

I am greatly exaggerating, but as far as "not relying too much on stereotypes defining characters, and when they do its done in a respectful way" goes, that concept is something tekken in my opinion is very good at.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I don't have any experience in the world of KOF, and if I did I'm sure I would disagree with any amount of stuff in this article, but I still appreciate writers who are trying to tackle this kind of thing. It's worth thinking and writing about it and it's obvious it's a very unpopular move to make, so it takes some boldness.

Also, since this thread has not fully comprehended it, it's worth saying it again that what the Penny Arcade Report writes and thinks has no affiliation with what Gabe and Tycho write and think.

It's fine to tackle games that deserve it. It's stupid to tackle games that don't. It's not worth cherry picking and making up things over games that aren't even in the realm of such. In fact, it just makes the problem worse and lets the real problems skate by.

This has happened a lot this past year and it's very starling that the amount of articles not on point overwhelm the ones that are.

Edit: Keep on the topic a bit more, SNK is actually pretty good when it comes to females. A certain character in the Last Blade series is an important piece to the story and they don't skim on her usage, if you will. Yuri could be seen as a DoD sometimes, but she certainly isn't weak and the games make note of that, in fact with her making up her own moves because her dad didn't want to teach her.

 

[Conciliator]

It's fine to tackle games that deserve it. It's stupid to tackle games that don't. It's not worth cherry picking and making up things over games that aren't even in the realm of such. In fact, it just makes the problem worse and lets the real problems skate by.

This has happened a lot this past year and it's very starling that the amount of articles not on point overwhelm the ones that are.

I'll defer to your judgement on this game as I've never really played KOF before. However my personal experience is that the majority of the articles on stuff like this over the past couple years have been regarding stuff worth considering at least, if not always shit I agree with or at least agree fully with.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I'll defer to your judgement on this game as I've never really played KOF before. However my personal experience is that the majority of the articles on stuff like this over the past couple years have been regarding stuff worth considering at least, if not always shit I agree with or at least agree fully with.

That probably doesn't help. I mean, lack of the source, which is the issue here; they don't know why it is, so they just assume. Knowing why something is and doing research would avoid this pointless tirade that does nothing but irate the reader that does know what's going on, and misinform the ones that don't.

Stuff with Killer Is Dead and even historical games focusing on accuracy got mauled, although the latter is probably from a year ago I think.