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Pokemon's #1 problem is its utterly insipid writing
- Thread starter Huge Succeeded
- Start date
Neoleo2143
Member
Woah, hold up here, you do realize that much of Mauville's development is basically a giant business scandal right? It really doesn't mince words either. It's definitely not all happy.
Or Pocket Card Jockey... oh wait, that has excellent dialogue. It's probably too mechanically complex for a kid's game but writing wise, it'd most certainly appeal to them and Adults.
M0nochromatic
Member
OP's on point. Cartoons and PG-Rated movies have stepped their game (heh) up with compelling narratives and characters in recent years. Kids are young, not brain dead.
Kids can appreciate depth in gameplay. Hell, for a lot of people, playing games when they were younger acted as a catalyst for their reading and math skills. Pokemon dosen't need a good story, but it deserves one.
Kids can appreciate depth in gameplay. Hell, for a lot of people, playing games when they were younger acted as a catalyst for their reading and math skills. Pokemon dosen't need a good story, but it deserves one.
Bakkus
Member
You know you have an options setting for that, right? 'Fast' is acceptable.
Obscuritas
Member
It's far from being the #1 problem, but it's still pretty annoying. Being marketed to children isn't a valid excuse for having such a bad, poor, lazy writing.
As much as I love franchise, the dialogue definitely needs some work. However, I feel that the writing isn't as much simple as it is... more disjointed I think? I don't have experience with other language versions, so correct me if I'm wrong, but at least the English versions seem like it could be a direct translation with minimal polish. Just a gut feeling, but could there be some truth to that?
I felt that Gen 3 and 4 were mostly fine (my memory shouldn't be too fuzzy, as I still play those two gens quite often), but I started noticing it during 5th Gen, and being smacked in the face by it in X and Y.
I felt that Gen 3 and 4 were mostly fine (my memory shouldn't be too fuzzy, as I still play those two gens quite often), but I started noticing it during 5th Gen, and being smacked in the face by it in X and Y.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
sees thread title, agrees
thinks to self: I bet all the Pokemon goobers are going to say nonsense like "it's for kids"
enters thread
Yep. Never fails.
thinks to self: I bet all the Pokemon goobers are going to say nonsense like "it's for kids"
enters thread
Yep. Never fails.
goldenpp72
Member
My memory is telling me the writing in soul/heart was funny and light hearted, was I wrong?
ColtraineGF
Member
Exp. Share is an item to explicitly make the game easier and more convenient. The presence of it doesn't mean you have to use it, just like how in games where you can change the difficulty at any time doesn't mean that you have to use easy all the time.
I don't feel like this philosophy ends with the writing - rather, it extends into every facet of the game design. No, I don't need my rival healing my entire team after every encounter. No, I don't need to be told where to go every 5 minutes. No, I don't need to be told what to do every 10 minutes.
While there have certainly be some improvements made over the last decade, it feels like the series is either stagnating or going backwards in many other areas.
KittenMaster
Member
Pokemon's writing never bothered me too badly until XY where it was all over the place, lacked focus, and killed pacing because it had to process different (and sometimes unlrelated) plot lines in such a rapid pace. Some of the plot points could even easily be their own game, even.
Also, Pokemon was never particularly difficult but XY went out of its way to ensure you had as little chance to fail as possible.
Also, Pokemon was never particularly difficult but XY went out of its way to ensure you had as little chance to fail as possible.
It is a bit weird to compare Pokémon as a game, to TV shows like Adventure Time and Regular Show, and movies like Toy Story 3 and Lego.
In those, writing is the key in development and is usually the first thing on which the episodes/movies are created. The basis of Pokémon is the game and the story/writing is just there to move things.
Now, that it could be better...sure. Yo-kai for example offers better story and writing than Pokémon. Kids talk and behave like kids. Is lighthearted, fun, silly, without making adults feel dumb or clueless.
So if anything, Pokémon should be compared to that rather than movies and other media.
Attack of the Friday Monsters, Fantasy Life, Little Battlers, Fossil Fighters have better writing too while been aimed at kids.
In those, writing is the key in development and is usually the first thing on which the episodes/movies are created. The basis of Pokémon is the game and the story/writing is just there to move things.
Now, that it could be better...sure. Yo-kai for example offers better story and writing than Pokémon. Kids talk and behave like kids. Is lighthearted, fun, silly, without making adults feel dumb or clueless.
So if anything, Pokémon should be compared to that rather than movies and other media.
Attack of the Friday Monsters, Fantasy Life, Little Battlers, Fossil Fighters have better writing too while been aimed at kids.
The Silver
Member
Since everyone is harping on XY I'll say its the only pokemon gen that I don't remember anything that went on in the story, nothing. Which is funny since its the most recent one I've played.
Lumination
'enry 'ollins
Played Pokemon since its introduction to the states.
Don't see why people think the kiddie level writing is acceptable. It is known that the Pokemon audience is skewing older and older, so let's not pretend like there's no financial merit here for Nintendo to cater to people older than 10. What is even the argument for keeping it the way it is? Why aren't people naturally asking for an improvement to the whole experience? Let's forget the 8 year olds since there are ways to write stories for all ages. Why don't people want better writing? Does anyone on this board actively prefer grade school level reading over something a little more dense?
Don't see why people think the kiddie level writing is acceptable. It is known that the Pokemon audience is skewing older and older, so let's not pretend like there's no financial merit here for Nintendo to cater to people older than 10. What is even the argument for keeping it the way it is? Why aren't people naturally asking for an improvement to the whole experience? Let's forget the 8 year olds since there are ways to write stories for all ages. Why don't people want better writing? Does anyone on this board actively prefer grade school level reading over something a little more dense?
Acerac
Banned
So are potions. Like I said, I could make things harder for myself in a dozen ways while playing the game, never use poke centers, never use potions, never use poke balls... but I'd like to just play the game without worrying about handicapping myself.
Why not offer a hard difficulty like black 2? I enjoyed that, even if the edge wore off by midgame.
This was a little irritating to me in Gen 6. ORAS in particular. I absolutely adore ORAS, but that stems from Gen 3 as a whole being tied for my favorite generation. RSE in particular (and even FRLG to an extent) has a wonderful sense of adventure to it because it's rarely spelled out of you. Anecdotal evidence, but the children where I have lived are constantly obsessing over Skyrim, Minecraft, and Don't Starve. They love that kind of freedom and exploration to an extent, as long as it isn't too cryptic. Stuff like the instant teleports in ORAS though? That's crossing the line. XD
Are you me?
The games being marketed at kids explains the writing, but doesn't justify it.
What I'd say justifies it is that you're not intended to play these games for their story. You're ultimately playing to use as many Pokemon as possible and to battle with them.
The comparison to other media isn't a good one because different things are trying to be accomplished in a tv show as opposed to what's trying to be accomplished in a video game.
What I'd say justifies it is that you're not intended to play these games for their story. You're ultimately playing to use as many Pokemon as possible and to battle with them.
The comparison to other media isn't a good one because different things are trying to be accomplished in a tv show as opposed to what's trying to be accomplished in a video game.
slick7rick
Member
I would like an option to get rid of the story altogether. It's never interesting. Just give me some Pokèballs and let me explore.
I don't think it's really fair to compare it to shows and movies for kids. Those don't require reading. Reading is much harder than just listening to people talk. What are the books targeted at 7-8 year olds like? Honest question, I don't even know. But I imagine they're closer to Pokemon's level of writing than a Pixar movie.
Then why bother writing so much nonsense?
Even if you are a kid...
For example, in Pokemon X/Y, was having so many rivals/friends necessary? Was the fireworks scene necessary? It's all filler, it' doesn't add any value to the game.
Like, probably kid me would have been blasting through those scenes, wishing I could skip them so I could go back to my journey of capturing and battling Pokemon.
Mechanized
Member
ITT people think kids are really fucking stupid.
...of course I knew that...
wtf jennetics. Look in the fucking options menu before spouting shit out..
NormalFish
Banned
If they're not going to bother to have quality writing, perhaps they should reduce the amount of dialogue the player is forced to deal with. The game is constantly throwing phone calls, unnecessary tutorials, long conversations with side characters with the depth of a puddle, etc.
Hitlersaurus Christ
Banned
It's almost like the writing is just there to be a background to the mechanics and social aspect of the game. But that would be silly.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It's a pretty time-consuming, shitty and annoying "background."
I mostly remember hating the Ferris Wheel ride and the gigantic asspull that N's Castle was. N being a front for the real leader is the oldest trick in the book too, not to mention for some reason Game Freak suddenly went full-jRPG with character names (Ghetsis and N... and then there's his full name...).
Leafhopper
Banned
Even the default speed, got faster B/W hit to be honest.
No, no that can't be it. Obviously Pokemon was made to tell this huge bombastic story.
I guess so. I just look and see how many hours I put in a Pokemon game after the plot and just kinda go "Eh".
CaptainMintMan
Member
Who past age 7 is reading Pokemon for engaging dialogue? Kinda think of it, I read very little of Pokemon Yellow's text. lol
Huge Succeeded
Banned
Are you reeeeally sure that my post is about Pokemon? After all, the way the rest of your post goes, you'd think I was talking shit on you and NeoGAF, and not the game.
That's not what I said. I said that it's possible to write dialogue for children that isn't braindead, and that those were examples of such. Not that Pokemon needs to become Toy Story or whatever you want to twist my words into.
I've brought up some others throughout the thread, but beyond that, you're doing the tried and true and totally expected Nintendo thread thing where you act like this thing I'm complaining about isn't even a factor because it's not 'what the game is about'. There's only one thing you do almost as much as battle in these games, and that's read dialogue. So brushing dialogue off like it's a non-factor in these games doesn't make sense to me.
You mean like in the restaurant video I posted? My main complaint there is that every single last bit of that scenario is written in a weird and alien manner, from beginning to end, and that it's representative of a lot of the game's dialogue. I care because as I had mentioned earlier, reading dialogue is sort of what you do in these games when you're not battling. It's not like I can ignore it like the irreverent fluff nonsense Battle Frontier trainers would say because the whole game is teeming with the kind of strange ass comments you'd see reserved for Battle Frontier trainers in earlier titles.
I would absolutely compare a lot of what's on show in ORAS to Dora The Explorer levels of writing, fwiw. Outlier characters exist, sure, but for the most part the dialogue does come off like poorly written Nick Jr. shit sometimes, more and more often during the 5th and then 6th gens. Name-dropping some of the only characters with character in their respective games won't do much to change my mind where that's concerned.
Are you seriously gonna take that shit personally? I wasn't calling you stupid. And I play these games for the same reasons that you do. For me, however, those things ARE affected by the quality of the writing. There is no feel of adventure for me in these games anymore. I know what to expect, all the time, and none of the flavor NPCs add any actual flavor to the world! They're 99% tutorial signposting or irreverent quips about Pokemon or some halfassed cultural stereotype, which wouldn't even be so bad if the dialogue weren't so frequently terrible.
I wasn't talking down to you, or at least I wasn't doing it consciously, as you have seen fit to do toward me. Telling me I'm not a fan of the series because I criticize it over something you wouldn't have? I'm not even surprised, you completed the checklist.
The best way to get children to collect and battle with the different Pokemon is to funnel them down a path with some kind of plotline. R/B/Y are perfect examples of this. Almost nothing of sustenance there, but by just playing through the story you had a guide to getting around and seeing the different Pokemon.
Every plot to every mainline Pokemon game since has just been a different way of doing this. Your rivals and fireworks in X/Y were indeed filler intended to disguise that fact. I really don't disagree that the story is stupid most of the time and I'd love to see it improved, but it should never by any means be prioritized over core gameplay.
I don't think it's meant to be taken as 1:1. The dialogue in Pokémon is more symbolic to its nature. Since the format isn't really suitable to long, deep conversations, it's up to you to fill in the blanks. Your character doesn't even speak but isn't mute in the game's world. A lot of RPG's have similar writing.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
You're comparing a video game to Pixar and The Lego Movie... that's like saying Tomb Raider is terrible because Raiders of the Lost Ark exists. They serve completely different purposes.
Rodney McKay
Member
I don't really notice the writing in the Pokemon games. It's definitely unmemorable for me.
My only major complaints with Pokemon is leveling up being too slow (which XY pretty much fixed with the improvements they made to the EXP Share), and the HM system.
I wish they'd just make HM's items that your character gets instead of moves that you are forced to give to your Pokemon, especially since they make it so you can't trade them once they learn them. It's an outdated system that doesn't make me look forward to getting a new HM (like I look forward to getting a new weapon or ability in Metroid or Zelda), it's purely an annoyance.
My only major complaints with Pokemon is leveling up being too slow (which XY pretty much fixed with the improvements they made to the EXP Share), and the HM system.
I wish they'd just make HM's items that your character gets instead of moves that you are forced to give to your Pokemon, especially since they make it so you can't trade them once they learn them. It's an outdated system that doesn't make me look forward to getting a new HM (like I look forward to getting a new weapon or ability in Metroid or Zelda), it's purely an annoyance.
Yeezus
Member
I feel that over the years the games have gotten progressively better with their written content, narrative and lore. You can also see that they are at least making an effort with things like Delta Episode.
I feel like the reason its so crappy is due to a number of things:
-its going to sell because its Pokemon
-the series has only just recently begun to re-haul itself in meaningful ways. Consider how long it took to differentiate attacks between special and phsyical
-its never been overly important
The idea of Pokemon is abundantly simple, and over the years the branding has come to really embody that. The games are complex in other ways, like the battle system for example. Also, consider the environmental storytelling that takes place in games like Diamond/Pearl (think of the Cresselia-Darkrai binary).
I feel like the reason its so crappy is due to a number of things:
-its going to sell because its Pokemon
-the series has only just recently begun to re-haul itself in meaningful ways. Consider how long it took to differentiate attacks between special and phsyical
-its never been overly important
The idea of Pokemon is abundantly simple, and over the years the branding has come to really embody that. The games are complex in other ways, like the battle system for example. Also, consider the environmental storytelling that takes place in games like Diamond/Pearl (think of the Cresselia-Darkrai binary).
Jean Grey Will Rise
Banned
The social aspect of Pokémon is driven primarily by 90's kids that have already outgrown the target demographic. Most kids nowadays own smartphones and have access to the greater internet so it's a pretty antiquated idea to have that Pokémon's main driving sales factor is in its interactivity potential. The metagame itself is pretty complex on its own, and I'm pretty sure its not aiming to appeal to little children.
Lucky Seven
Banned
Ha! The writing is not an issue. Difficulty is their biggest issue next to balance. But, sure, lets hold GF's writers to nonsensical standards. It's a kids game/movie/cartoon, but it's so much more right?
BluePikmin11
Member
Does anyone feel that Pokemon is going the direction the Sonic franchise is at right now? Just curious.
Neoleo2143
Member
It's probably the most horrifying location in a Pokemon game. But it nails so many things about telling an engaging story without distancing from characters and delving into exposition dumping. It's even got a great and somewhat (and also understated) tragic conclusion.
Not only are the older/adult fans generally ok with the writing, but if anything, it makes it more charming and just the way they remember it compared to if it had complex dialogue. Besides, what would be be the point? The way the game is written is one of the many aspects Pokemon does uniquely
Opinionatedfish
Member
A few things to note.
1. The OP is comparing shows & movies written with American children/young adults in mind to a video game written with an International audience of children/young adults in mind. There are culturally significant issues that may arrive when trying to create material that is easily adaptable to a broad spectrum of cultures. Often, the simplistic nature of writing structure may have to do with accounting for those difference in language structure.
2. A 90 minute movie might only have 20 to 30 pages of dialogue. The average Pokemon title might have that many pages of writing just for the first few hundred Pokedex entries.
3. The writing in Pokemon has to make sense, be gender neutral, be culturally neutral, and easy enough for a beginning reader. These are "Ages 7 and Up." The general audience for many of the items mentioned is 10 and up, often 70% male, and character based.
I play these games to collect all of the Pokemon, battle & trade them, and check out new features. When I want deep story or heart wrenching character drama.. there are other RPGs or narrative focused games that I go to. Yes, the writing in Pokemon games, except for maybe the Mystery Dungeon ones, is fairly plain. I do understand why it has to be that way though.
1. The OP is comparing shows & movies written with American children/young adults in mind to a video game written with an International audience of children/young adults in mind. There are culturally significant issues that may arrive when trying to create material that is easily adaptable to a broad spectrum of cultures. Often, the simplistic nature of writing structure may have to do with accounting for those difference in language structure.
2. A 90 minute movie might only have 20 to 30 pages of dialogue. The average Pokemon title might have that many pages of writing just for the first few hundred Pokedex entries.
3. The writing in Pokemon has to make sense, be gender neutral, be culturally neutral, and easy enough for a beginning reader. These are "Ages 7 and Up." The general audience for many of the items mentioned is 10 and up, often 70% male, and character based.
I play these games to collect all of the Pokemon, battle & trade them, and check out new features. When I want deep story or heart wrenching character drama.. there are other RPGs or narrative focused games that I go to. Yes, the writing in Pokemon games, except for maybe the Mystery Dungeon ones, is fairly plain. I do understand why it has to be that way though.
Two things:
1) You can easily make an serviceable story that is easy to read for kids, and doesnt reek of dumbness. I would be perfectly fine with less edge like in Gen6, but rather more substance. More "meat".
2) If Exp share was meant as an easy mode, they would have done better by adding an actual easy mode, you know, like they did before? But they didn't. They just threw in the Exp share, and didn't scale the enemies accordingly, which destroyed every piece of balance XY had. And it shouldn't be my job to tweak the difficulty before playing. Game Freak had 20 years to find out how to perfectly balance the campaign, so you can have a decent challenge while playing. And they dropped the ball hard on that.
1) You can easily make an serviceable story that is easy to read for kids, and doesnt reek of dumbness. I would be perfectly fine with less edge like in Gen6, but rather more substance. More "meat".
2) If Exp share was meant as an easy mode, they would have done better by adding an actual easy mode, you know, like they did before? But they didn't. They just threw in the Exp share, and didn't scale the enemies accordingly, which destroyed every piece of balance XY had. And it shouldn't be my job to tweak the difficulty before playing. Game Freak had 20 years to find out how to perfectly balance the campaign, so you can have a decent challenge while playing. And they dropped the ball hard on that.
I mean, to an extent I agree. I agree that Pokemon sometimes assumes it is every player's first Pokemon game, that it should have an option to say "but it ain't" and let you skip the tutorials. I agree those tutorials can be pretty aggravating when forced. I'll forever hate how much of them BW2 dropped on me.
At the same time, I don't agree that the content of Pokemon writing is especially terrible, given its meant to reach a broad demographic. Old Pokemon games had no compunction exposing kids to terrible animal testing with Mewtwo, to animal cruelty and death with Marowak and Cubone, and to the overall shitty treatment of adults toward animals with Team Rocket. Throughout the series the villains continually misunderstand the relationship between man and animal, and the themes of friendship and growth.
I will go out on a limb though and say I kind of feel Gamefreak misses those points, too, and that the community does as well, on the topic of Pokemon battles. That is to say, I don't think its entirely honest to say 'Pokemon is for kids' when everything about online Pokemon battle is run by and geared toward the worst of obsessive adults. It's a weird, gross eugenics scheme that consumes hours of time and encourages the creation and discard of pokemon of no worth, rather than encouraging kids to use the teams they went on journeys with.
Which is really just a fancy way of saying: I think Pokemon battling has gotten really shitty and not newcomer friendly over the years, and it sorta runs counter to the message of the games.
At the same time, I don't agree that the content of Pokemon writing is especially terrible, given its meant to reach a broad demographic. Old Pokemon games had no compunction exposing kids to terrible animal testing with Mewtwo, to animal cruelty and death with Marowak and Cubone, and to the overall shitty treatment of adults toward animals with Team Rocket. Throughout the series the villains continually misunderstand the relationship between man and animal, and the themes of friendship and growth.
I will go out on a limb though and say I kind of feel Gamefreak misses those points, too, and that the community does as well, on the topic of Pokemon battles. That is to say, I don't think its entirely honest to say 'Pokemon is for kids' when everything about online Pokemon battle is run by and geared toward the worst of obsessive adults. It's a weird, gross eugenics scheme that consumes hours of time and encourages the creation and discard of pokemon of no worth, rather than encouraging kids to use the teams they went on journeys with.
Which is really just a fancy way of saying: I think Pokemon battling has gotten really shitty and not newcomer friendly over the years, and it sorta runs counter to the message of the games.
Oh I agree, we do need some basic story. I'm against filler to it. Just keep it simple, as simple as R/B/Y/G/S/C.
Like, I don't think even kids are into it.
And just thinking about my kid-self... Pokemon R/B/Y didn't have any of that and did it work? Hell yes it did.
I tried a Pokemon game as an adult to see what the fuss was all about...gotta say, I find OP to be funny because it's true. I only tried Pokemon Diamond and played long enough to get the bike and some upgrades to it, and a rock hammer.
If this is your place to grind, that's cool, but I feel like vestigial stories with lots of text do more harm than good by making you think you might miss something by not paying attention. Just skip to fighting and shut up if there's nothing worth saying...
If this is your place to grind, that's cool, but I feel like vestigial stories with lots of text do more harm than good by making you think you might miss something by not paying attention. Just skip to fighting and shut up if there's nothing worth saying...