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[zoukka]

Evil team wanting to use the ultimate weapon which was created by the giant that killed thousands of Pokémon in the past after his Floette friend was killed.

Yeah, totally talking down to kids

Please don't give me the bullshit that evil things happening in stories make them somehow more mature.

 

[G-Fex]

Evil team wanting to use the ultimate weapon which was created by the giant that killed thousands of Pokémon in the past after his Floette friend was killed.

Yeah, totally talking down to kids

Whoa.

Move over Shin Megami Tensei.

 

[UncleSporky]

I am definitely tired of getting the same old basic tips all throughout every game.

Get to like the second to last city in the game and some asshole is saying "Whoa! My fire pokemon lost to a water pokemon!" Thanks dude, thanks. Good to know.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

The story in pokemon does nothing for me at all. I don't wanna wade through story when the core of the game isn't about interactions and plot but rather collection and team building.

As for the difficulty, in pokemon the game doesnt even start until after you beat the league. The last game I played extensively was pearl and the islands along with the battle tower were more than challenging enough imo. The mechanics of the game cant be interesting until you utilize a rule set that emphasizes proper training and strategy.

If all the trainer battles were like the battle tower no one would even finish the game. And increasing the difficulty per battle is equivalent to give all the pokemon varied movesets and jack up their level. And that just slowd down progression

 

[Boss Doggie]

This is like complaining about the story of roguelikes though.

 

[zoukka]

This is like complaining about the story of roguelikes though.

This makes no sense. In Pokemon the game is full of NPC:s to talk to and some amount of fixed storytelling.

 

[Boss Doggie]

This makes no sense. In Pokemon the game is full of NPC:s to talk to and some amount of fixed storytelling.

Yes, but most are world and lorebuilding which the game has in droves even in XY.

Pokemon is rich more in world and lorebuilding than storytelling, which is pretty ignorable and honestly shouldn't be a focus. And honestly for a game that focuses specifically in numbers, focusing less on story and more in the background lore/world is better.

 

[JoeM86]

Please don't give me the bullshit that evil things happening in stories make them somehow more mature.

I wasn't saying that.

I was using it as a counter to the assertion that the games talk down to you and treat you as stupid. When using death as such a massive plotpoint, especially as, outside Lavender Town, death is seldom referenced in Pokémon games/anime is evidence to the contrary.

People say the games have been getting more childlike and it's all about friendship, but that's indicative of an opinion of someone who didn't actually play through the entirety of the game. There's some dark themes in here.

 

[Boss Doggie]

It's really telling when people shit on Team Flare but if you actually take a while to analyze it, Lysandre's pretty much nearing Hitler in terms of goals with a twisted "doing it for the benefit of humans and Pokemon".

And honestly XY is less about friendship and more on a meta commentary on what happens to the character you don't pick.

Then again this is the fanbase that also complained about the dancers in BW2 even though it was the fucking point.

 

[Kyzer]

XY was not even because it was directed at kids its because they put so much work into the new engine they barely worked on the story at all

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Black 2's hard option was hard for all of five minutes.

And no, Gen 1 isn't hard. It's grindy. There's a difference between difficulty and there being a grind

No there isn't. Not in Pokémon anyway. That's just the path some people choose to deal with the difficulty.

Pokemon is after all, a turn based RPG where you earn exp. Of course you can deal with and remove difficultly by grinding. That's only one solution, and frankly, probably the wrong one.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

I wasn't saying that.

I was using it as a counter to the assertion that the games talk down to you and treat you as stupid. When using death as such a massive plotpoint, especially as, outside Lavender Town, death is seldom referenced in Pokémon games/anime is evidence to the contrary.

People say the games have been getting more childlike and it's all about friendship, but that's indicative of an opinion of someone who didn't actually play through the entirety of the game. There's some dark themes in here.

And none of them are well handled because the writing is so insipid. Doesn't matter if the topic is friendship, growing up or death. The writing needs to be engaging to a degree that's rarely found in Pokemon games.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Pretty sure early gen isn't hard at all

fuck, you could pretty much just spam Slash or Psychic in Gen 1

 

[JoeM86]

And none of them are well handled because the writing is so insipid. Doesn't matter if the topic is friendship, growing up or death. The writing needs to be engaging to a degree that's rarely found in Pokemon games.

I wholeheartedly disagree, I think the story of the old war and what happened was written very well.

The premise of this thread is that the Pokémon writing talks down to you etc., which is far from the truth. It's not the most gripping, no, but it's by no means awful or "insipid"

Huge Succeeded went the wrong way with this thread. He could easily have said "I think Pokémon could do with a more mature/engaging story" and he'd have got people agreeing and a valid discussion brought. Instead, he went on the offensive, down to calling people who buy the games stupid and had flawed examples for his over-reaction

 

[Maebe]

I don't see any huge issue with the examples in the OP, honestly. Emerald, D/P and B/W are the only ones I've played to completion/almost to completion and the writing never stood out to be as that terrible. But that was also a while ago so I barely remember it.

 

[zoukka]

Yes, but most are world and lorebuilding which the game has in droves even in XY.

Pokemon is rich more in world and lorebuilding than storytelling, which is pretty ignorable and honestly shouldn't be a focus. And honestly for a game that focuses specifically in numbers, focusing less on story and more in the background lore/world is better.

This has nothing to do with the fact that no matter how much writing your game has, it needs to be good.

It's really telling when people shit on Team Flare but if you actually take a while to analyze it, Lysandre's pretty much nearing Hitler in terms of goals with a twisted "doing it for the benefit of humans and Pokemon

Grim themes does not good writing make.

 

[Boss Doggie]

This has nothing to do with the fact that no matter how much writing your game has, it needs to be good.

Grim themes does not good writing make.

No it doesn't? Street Fighter doesn't have good writing yet it is one of the best fighting game series around. Pokemon is less about story and more about the numbers game, especially nowadays when it is put in great focus.

Also I made that post in reference to people missing out Lysandre, not because the game has good writing.

 

[zoukka]

No it doesn't? Street Fighter doesn't have good writing yet it is one of the best fighting game series around. Pokemon is less about story and more about the numbers game, especially nowadays when it is put in great focus.

Street Fighter has less focus in story. The writing in SF is more about silly quotes between the characters. In Pokemon they do try to sell you a basic RPG storyline.

 

[PsionBolt]

Pokemon's writing is charming and elegant. When folks recall comfy shorts and top-percentage Rattatas, they are laughing with joy, not with derision. In the world of JRPGs, Pokemon's dialogue is quite frankly high-tier.
Yes, the NPCs most often teach you about the game and world rather than speaking "realistically" in a context extremely removed from reality. No, this is not "insipid writing".

Yep, 100%. The terrible "we're all friends and love each other" bullshit from X/Y completely turned me off from the game. I just tried to get through it as quickly as possible because the writing and story were so bad.

The strongest point of XY's writing comes directly out of that friendship nonsense, however: Calem's constant angst and gradually building inferiority complex. Every scene with the gang together, you can feel the awkwardness left over from his "why can't I ever beat you!?" whining that he spouts every time you hand his head to him. It makes a hilarious contrast with rest of the happy-go-lucky gang.

The game isn't easier though. As I said, the Elite Four in gen 1 could be beaten when 20 levels underlevelled. The issue is grinding and the fact you're older now. Games didn't get easier, you got older.

Pretty sure early gen isn't hard at all
fuck, you could pretty much just spam Slash or Psychic in Gen 1

I have to agree. I just yesterday finished a run on Red in which I used a 5-Pokemon team of all Poison types, just for fun. My average level at the end was 51, ten levels below Lance, and despite all those intentional restrictions, I still cleared it with no trouble. Seriously, Red is easy as pie.

 

[Celine]

Hey, you bought the new Pokemon game? That means you're fucking stupid.

No, that's not my opinion. That's Game Freak's opinion of you.

Thanks for let me know your opinion on Pokémon games.

 

[SerTapTap]

Yep, 100%. The terrible "we're all friends and love each other" bullshit from X/Y completely turned me off from the game. I just tried to get through it as quickly as possible because the writing and story were so bad.

I do agree that the move away from mean rivals is terrible. You basically crush your rivals dreams before their eyes in XY and they just sit there and cheer you on, it's painful.

 

[OniBarubary]

Kinda wish Pokemon grew up with me like Digimon games did.

Digimon Cyber Sleuth is pretty much exactly what I want out of a Pokemon game but I sincerely doubt I'll ever get something like that. Last 3 Pokemon games just bored the shit outta me. I can play kid's games and realize the market, hell I really liked Yokai Watch, but Pokemon games have just not had anything that drew me in for a long time.

Pokemon's writing is charming and elegant. When folks recall comfy shorts and top-percentage Rattatas, they are laughing with joy, not with derision. In the world of JRPGs, Pokemon's dialogue is quite frankly high-tier.
Yes, the NPCs most often teach you about the game and world rather than speaking "realistically" in a context extremely removed from reality. No, this is not "insipid writing".

Ha ha ha ha fucking what?

 

[Boss Doggie]

Street Fighter has less focus in story. The writing in SF is more about silly quotes between the characters. In Pokemon they do try to sell you a basic RPG storyline.

eh not really, they're selling you the world of Pokemon and the collectathon though

even the first game it's as basic as it gets - they push more on the world aspect than the story

I'm in agree with you that the story is shit, just disagreeing that it is the focus

 

[zoukka]

eh not really, they're selling you the world of Pokemon and the collectathon though

even the first game it's as basic as it gets - they push more on the world aspect than the story

I'm in agree with you that the story is shit, just disagreeing that it is the focus

I'm not saying it's the focus. I'm saying, the little you have in there should be good, there's no way out of it. The silly quotes in SF should be good also and they are pretty hilarious.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Not true. You're just older. The writing back then is on par, if not worse since they had to fit in a lot less characters in the boxes.

But there was significantly less dialogue.

Replaying BW1 after my first RBY playthrough on VC really showed me how annoying recent Pokemon games have been with this. The pacing really suffers.

 

[Abandond]

I genuinely dislike the writing of Pokemon and it's probably the main reason I don't buy the games anymore.

I get that it's for children but I don't think that's an excuse for the boring writing, haha. Yokai Watch has fantastic writing and I'm sure that targets the same audience...

Honestly I just wish I had a "skip all dialogue" button. That would be perfection.

 

[21XX]

You'd think a Saturday-morning cartoon game would cater to adults a little more.

 

[Kinhow]

So much salt over a kid's game writing.

 

[MannyToons]

I do agree that the move away from mean rivals is terrible. You basically crush your rivals dreams before their eyes in XY and they just sit there and cheer you on, it's painful.

Agreed! I have a huge problem with this as well. They just accept that you'll always be the superior trainer, despite previously being so determined to become stronger trainers themselves. Like what.

 

[golduck342]

I think the problem is the same as the reason they don't have features that are basic for XBox and PS4. Nintendo is not paying attention to what their competition is doing. They are so out of touch in many ways, but they still know how to make good games.

I wonder if it also has to do with localization. Those shows you listed are all western, I'm not sure what's happening in the Japanese scene for kids programming, and if it's just a limitation from translating.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I think the problem is the same as the reason they don't have features that are basic for XBox and PS4. Nintendo is not paying attention to what their competition is doing. They are so out of touch in many ways, but they still know how to make good games.

I wonder if it also has to do with localization. Those shows you listed are all western, I'm not sure what's happening in the Japanese scene for kids programming, and if it's just a limitation from translating.

The Japanese dialogue is just as bad, if not more generic.

 

[JoeM86]

But there was significantly less dialogue.

Replaying BW1 after my first RBY playthrough on VC really showed me how annoying recent Pokemon games have been with this. The pacing really suffers.

Because there's more characters and more plot now. The games are bigger. Therefore there's more text as there's more story.

No longer are there only 3 recurring characters that you see more than once. We see multiple. There's more to explore, so yes there is more text. That's not a bad thing.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

The writing is indeed shit but I have a hard time slipping into a 7 yo's shoes and evaluating whether the dialogue and story would insult my intelligence or not. I was past 7 at the release of Red and Blue in '99 too and I'm honestly not sure what my opinion of the story back then was.

 

[DannyDanger]

I was able to read The Hobbit at 9, I'm sure I could take something more complex than Pokemon's current offerings by 7 or 8.

Kids are young, they're not idiots.

Are we talking about the overarching story or the writing in general?? Any kid can read a book... Understanding how the games many systems work is a different story

Most of the dialogue is explanations, and tutorials for how stuff works.. I honestly don't even know what the story is in pokemon

You're telling me without all that you'd know to go into your menu use an HM01 on a pokemon to learn cut, then go cut down a tree to advance, at 9yrs old, on your first playthrough? And thats just one example. Nobody's saying kids are idiots, but just like everyone else they have to learn something before they know it second nature. We know it second nature, which i think is causing some ppl to project their current knowledge of the game on to kids who never played it

Edit: the last pokemon i played was emerald, so maybe i'm completely wrong on this as many ppl are saying theres more story in the more recent games

 

[Apathy]

Ist a kids game man, it's not supposed to be Ulysses.

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

I hate the sheer inconsistency and contradictory nature of Pokemon games. The story, writing, aesthetics, and base level difficulty are all aimed at children. Yet the meta stuff is so deep that the vast majority of players don't even know it exists, much less comprehend it. And even if you do understand it, you need to use external guides, tools, and calculators to benefit from it. All of this stuff is hidden away, and very little in-game resources exist to assist you with it. And absolutely no attempt is made by the game itself to introduce ot explain any of it at all.

Pokemon really needs to find a middle ground. Bring the meta stuff into the limelight, and make it more accessible. Simplify it even more so that all players can realistically raise a competitive team, while at the same time stop treating players like idiots/toddlers throughout the main game.

 

[zoukka]

Ist a kids game man, it's not supposed to be Ulysses.

Kids stories were good once. This is a shit excuse.

 

[Garuroh]

One of the best examples of Pokemon' shitty writing is in XY. Sycamore and Lysandre are supposed to be friends yet when Lysandre announces his world destruction plan, Sycamore doesn't react at all, he doesn't have opinions on his friend being a lunatic. WTF? Don't defend that shit.

Even the best written games are just ok at best. BW had some interesting things but GF backpedaled and made Ghetesis a crazy mustache twirling villain because his motivation was too symphatetic. People always have complained about the Pokemon world being hypocrital because the games, anime, manga, etc preach about co-existence when they force the force Pokemon to fight and GF put all those complain in the mouth of a maniac and a weido.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I'm not saying it's the focus. I'm saying, the little you have in there should be good, there's no way out of it. The silly quotes in SF should be good also and they are pretty hilarious.

True enough I suppose, but the exploration and lore I feel overshadows the story that they didn't really need to put much about it.

Agreed! I have a huge problem with this as well. They just accept that you'll always be the superior trainer, despite previously being so determined to become stronger trainers themselves. Like what.

The only time this happens is when people assume Tierno, Trevor and Shauna are rivals... when they aren't.

The actual rivals you had since Gen IV all feel disappointed that you defeat them, aspire to beat you, and some even have a moment of depression that you beat them.

One of the best examples of Pokemon' shitty writing is in XY. Sycamore and Lysandre are supposed to be friends yet when Lysandre announces his world destruction plan, Sycamore doesn't react at all, he doesn't have opinions on his friend being a lunatic. WTF? Don't defend that shit.

Minor correction - they're student-teacher, with some acquaintance-level friendship. Sycamore did bring it up and he says that he feels he failed at that point because his teachings should have swayed him against it, that's why he talks with you in that town before Snowbelle.

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

that is not the #1 problem.

cutting out previous gameplay elements and little to no end game are.

 

[Garuroh]

Minor correction - they're student-teacher, with some acquaintance-level friendship. Sycamore did bring it up and he says that he feels he failed at that point because his teachings should have swayed him against it, that's why he talks with you in that town before Snowbelle.

I'm talking about the moment Lysandre announces his plan, Sycamore calls you and he doesn't give a fuck.

 

[Azuran]

But I can play gen 1 right now on the virtual console and it's obviously way more difficult. Saying the issue is just grinding doesn't change the fact that it was more challenging. I'd agree that it wasn't the best implementation of difficulty, but 20 years later as we are they should have found a better method for adding some depth to the campaign for those who have played pokemon before.

I was also "harder" because 90% of the Pokemon you could use in that game were complete and utter garbage that no one would be using nowadays. Even the early Pokemon like Staraptor and Diggersby are better designed these days and aren't as useless as something like Pidgeot or Rattata. Hell, some Pokemon didn't even get good STAB moves so no shit the game was more difficult due to stupid ass gameplay restrictions.

Also gameplay improvement is going to make the game "easier" because there's no dumbass glitches to deal with.

 

[StoneFox]

People talking about rivals reminds me of how much I liked Hugh. He wasn't out to get the player, but he had real motivation of why he was always ahead of you and why he was always rushing off. Plus his battle theme was pretty sweet.

I want GF to expand on the storytelling style of the Unova games. Those games probably had the most world-building in the series and it felt like a brand new start of a golden era after Gen 4 but then Gen 6 happened and they decided to pander to old fans instead of giving Kalos its own identity.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I'm talking about the moment Lysandre announces his plan, Sycamore calls you and he doesn't give a fuck.

He did - he leaves it up to you. A bit of a shitty way of handling it, but he reacts.

People talking about rivals reminds me of how much I liked Hugh. He wasn't out to get the player, but he had real motivation of why he was always ahead of you and why he was always rushing off. Plus his battle theme was pretty sweet.

I want GF to expand on the storytelling style of the Unova games. Those games probably had the most world-building in the series and it felt like a brand new start of a golden era after Gen 4 but then Gen 6 happened and they decided to pander to old fans instead of giving Kalos its own identity.

I never understood the hate for Hugh.

 

[StoneFox]

I never understood the hate for Hugh.

From what I could tell, people seem to view him as a bit of a jerk because he is constantly yelling at people about how he's "going to unleash his rage!" and I guess people expected him to talk about anything else besides his sister's stolen pokemon. As if the main goal in his quest isn't always the first thing on his mind...

I really like hot-blooded rivals, Barry and the rival in X/Y were too laid back in my opinion.

 

[JoeM86]

You're totally correct. There's much more going on in the later pokemon games than in the early ones. Problem is, when you use the same abysmal quality of storytelling and world/lore building as the earlier games, but significantly increase the quantity of its bad dialogue, characters, lore and storytelling overall, the game suffers more because of it as you have to wade through more tripe to get to the end (which, by the way, is necessary to unlock some super handy competitive features).

Seriously???

 

[Theognosis]

Playing Pokemon with its basic story requires more of my cerebral attention than "playing" B-movie story-driven games like TLOU and Uncharted 4.

Let's cut this pretentious crap.

 

[Green Mamba]

Playing Pokemon with its basic story requires more of my cerebral attention than "playing" B-movie story-driven games like TLOU and Uncharted 4.

What am I even reading.

I've not played Uncharted 4 but if the insinuation here is that TLoU "plays itself" then I can safely say you've never played TLoU.

 

[Theosmeo]

Playing Pokemon with its basic story requires more of my cerebral attention than "playing" B-movie story-driven games like TLOU and Uncharted 4.

Let's cut this pretentious crap.

Oh...

I'm not too big a fan of TLOU or U1-4 either but you can't say that Pokemon is some paragon of narrative or gameplay depth while those are trash.

 

[Garuroh]

Playing Pokemon with its basic story requires more of my cerebral attention than "playing" B-movie story-driven games like TLOU and Uncharted 4.

Let's cut this pretentious crap.

the fuck does this mean